What is PIE - language or culture - clarification urgently needed

[LeBrok]

There is some R1a in Western Europe (also depends what do you mean by "Western").

And why is there so much of R1b-P312 without any U106 and Z2103 in Ireland, for example?

And all U106 which in Ireland, came very late with Vikings and English/British settlers - not with Celts.

As I wrote - some lineages became only successful in some branches of IE.

Shouldn't there be a 30/30/30 mix of U106/P312/Z2103 among all Indo-European groups ???If you do not expect an even mix of all types of R1b, why do you expect a 50/50 mix of R1a/R1b ???

I don't expect this to be even Steven, but no successful R1a only successful R1bs?

And within R1a there is also this pattern - for example among Indo-Aryans there is mostly R1a L657.

also suspicious and counter-intuitive if Yamnaya was well mixed.

And BTW - there is no R1b in India, apart from some brought by British people in the 19th century.

See, only 200 years of British dominance and they so many speak English, mostly educated elite. Most importantly they use it as a lingua franca to communicate between ethnic groups and with the external world. As you noticed without introduction of conqueror,s R1b.
This is why I think it happened this way. So many real life, well documented examples from recent history.

 

[Tomenable]

One more comment to those autosomal / IBD maps above:

Note that Uyghurs - who are thought to be Turkicized Tocharians and Iranians - have high CHG / Teal levels too.

I guess this CHG allows for distinguishing "pure Turks" from "Turks who assimilated genetic Indo-Europeans".

I don't expect this to be even Steven, but no successful R1a only successful R1bs?

Yes - and on the opposite fringe of Indo-European expansion, in India, there is no successful R1b.

In western fringe R1b dominated, in eastern fringe R1a dominated, and between the fringes there is a mix.

There is a similar situation within R1b and within R1a (L51 = west; Z2103 = east; Z283 = west; Z93 = east).

Most importantly they use it as a lingua franca to communicate between ethnic groups and with the external world. As you noticed without introduction of conqueror,s R1b.

So maybe Western Europe was conquered by R1a Indo-Europeans who imposed their language without introduction of conqueror's R1a ??? But this claim seems to be erroneus considering that there is some "Steppe" autosomal admixture there as well.

Only groups such as Sardinians and Finno-Ugric speakers have almost no such admixture.

And when you look at the map of CHG / Teal autosomal (see above), there is CHG all the way from Ireland to India.

If R1a introduced CHG to India, and R1b introduced CHG to Ireland - then apparently both haplogroups carried it.

Because who introduced CHG to India, if there is no R1b in India, and who to Ireland, if there is no R1a there?

Or were PIE women travelling alone, spreading CHG / Teal admixture and just their mtDNA ???

 

[LeBrok]

An autosomal map for Caucasian Hunter-Gatherer (CHG) - or "Teal" - admixture:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5833-Teal-discovered-!!/page42

And here a map for IBD sharing with Caucasian Hunter-Gatherers / Teal people:



Seems to correlate well with Indo-European speakers (look e.g. at Germano-Slavic levels vs. Finno-Ugric levels).

Not only Finnic-speakers have low levels of CHG / Teal admixture & IBD sharing, but also for example Sardinians.

In India North Indians (who are IE-speakers) have high levels, while South Indians (Dravidian-speakers) not.

Definitely took part in IE expansion. Interesting is this hot spot in Omen on Arabian Peninsula.

 

[Tomenable]

So - Yamnaya culture covered at least around 1,000,000 (one million) square km.

Do you know how much of it has been examined so far? Only about 100,000 square km.

Just two "pockets" are well-tested by now - around Samara and north-east of Stavropol.

We have 900,000 square kilometers filled with Yamnaya burial sites still to be tested.

 

[LeBrok]

One more comment to those autosomal / IBD maps above:

Note that Uyghurs - who are thought to be Turkicized Tocharians and Iranians - have high CHG / Teal levels too.

I guess this CHG allows for distinguishing "pure Turks" from "Turks who assimilated genetic Indo-Europeans".



Yes - and on the opposite fringe of Indo-European expansion, in India, there is no successful R1b.

In western fringe R1b dominated, in eastern fringe R1a dominated, and between the fringes there is a mix.

There is a similar situation within R1b and within R1a (L51 = west; Z2103 = east; Z283 = west; Z93 = east).

So maybe Western Europe was conquered by R1a Indo-Europeans who imposed their language without introduction of conqueror's R1a ??? But this claim seems to be erroneus considering that there is some "Steppe" autosomal admixture there as well.

Only groups such as Sardinians and Finno-Ugric speakers have almost no such admixture.

And when you look at the map of CHG / Teal autosomal (see above), there is CHG all the way from Ireland to India.

If R1a introduced CHG to India, and R1b introduced CHG to Ireland - then apparently both haplogroups carried it.

Because who introduced CHG to India, if there is no R1b in India, and who to Ireland, if there is no R1a there?

Or were PIE women travelling alone, spreading CHG / Teal admixture and just their mtDNA ???

Did you forget that haplogroup J2 was discovered among CHG?

 

[Tomenable]

And as you can see, there is even less of haplogroup J2 in West Europe than of R1a.

So once again this disproves the idea that it was even Steven in terms of Y-DNA.

But people suggested already before, that some subclades of J could also be IE.

However, we should go deeper into subclades because I don't think all of J2 is IE.

 

[Tomenable]

BTW - are there any other instances of J2 in ancient DNA apart from that sample in CHG ???

=========================

Edit:

J2 as a whole is too old to be related to PIE - http://www.yfull.com/tree/J2/

J2 - formed 31400 ybp, TMRCA 27800 ybp

Maybe some specific subclades which are young enough, but not J2 as a whole.

R1a and R1b are often suggested as being PIE not only because they are found in aDNA samples from Indo-European cultures, but also because they are so young (I'm talking about M198/M417 and M269/L23 subclades of R1), and yet so widespread.

Young + widespread + correlating with IE speakers in aDNA and / or in modern DNA = possible PIE candidates.

R1b-V88 is not related to PIE at all, neither in ancient DNA (Neolithic Iberia) nor in modern DNA (Sub-Saharans).

R1b-M343 didn't speak PIE. R1b-M269 started to speak PIE language, older subclades (such as R1b-V88) didn't.

 

[Tomenable]

LeBrok, you were probably right thay Yamnaya were not all identical autosomally.

Kurd from Anthrogenica wrote (about his autosomal runs with use of ADMIXTURE calculator):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...s-data-analysis-(Mathieson-Reich-Haak-)/page2

With ancients, you will notice considerable variation within the group itself. Some BA Armenians are very CHG shifted, others are very steppe shifted. You will also see much variation within Yamnaya. Whether this is from mislabeling a sample, or whether because the sample is an outlier, or whether substructure within a group arising from geography, time, or some other variable we can't be certain. (...) That seems to be the pattern I am seeing with ancient genomes. Even with Yamnaya, I believe some were very EHG shifted, whereas others Caucasus shifted. The more ancients we can sequence and include in our analysis, the smaller the gap will become between moderns and ancients in terms of overlap. By adding a second Karelian sample into the run, I noticed a slight increase in EHG score for some moderns

 

[LeBrok]

And as you can see, there is even less of haplogroup J2 in West Europe than of R1a.

I'm saying that J2 was implicated in distribution of CHG too, which your forgotten completely about this.

Because who introduced CHG to India, if there is no R1b in India

Is this true that J2 carried CHG?

However, we should go deeper into subclades because I don't think all of J2 is IE.

Neither was all R1a or R1b.

So once again this disproves the idea that it was even Steven in terms of Y-DNA.

And why not buy dominance like in India, Hungary, Turkey and many attested others. The point is that we don't know really how it happened. I'm just confused that you are so firmly believing in your hypotheses with complete lack of any evidence that such process, based on lack, takes place? It is possible, though very unlikely.
Mind you that level of many Neolithic hgs is higher than any R1a subclade in Western Europe, outside of reach of Corded Ware expansion. Not even one subclade of R1a was successful their? Isn't it more likely that R1a didn't take part in Western IE expansion?

 

[Tomenable]

Neither was all R1a or R1b.

But 99% of R1a in the world is young M417, and it correlates very well with PIE expansion, both in aDNA and now.

Just like most of I1 is young and correlates with Germanic migrations (are there any subclades of I1 which aren't Germanic)?

As for R1b - here indeed we have some major subclades which do not correlate with IE. For example Chadic V88:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chadic_languages

We also have V88 in Neolithic Iberia, and those people didn't speak PIE (maybe they spoke Chadic, maybe something else).

Is this true that J2 carried CHG?

There are many areas with more CHG than India, but very low percent of J2 and R1b, look carefully at those maps.

I'm just confused that you are so firmly believing in your hypotheses with complete lack of any evidence

So far I have 71+ Ancient samples of R1a as evidence, and overwhelmimg majority of them are from IE cultures.

On the other hand R1b (45+ Ancient pre-Medieval samples) is a little bit more ambiguous. Not to mention J2.

Mind you that level of many Neolithic hgs is higher than any R1a subclade in Western Europe, outside of reach of Corded Ware expansion. Not even one subclade of R1a was successful their? Isn't it more likely that R1a didn't take part in Western IE expansion?

Well you say that R1a is low in West Europe, but so is autosomal PIE. Autosomal PIE is high in Norway, Lithuania, North-East Europe, etc.

Why do Norway, Lithuania, North-East Europe - all of which have a lot of R1a - also happen to have more "steppe PIE" autosomal DNA ???

BTW - we can say the same thing about R1b in India. And as you also noticed, recently English language expanded without British DNA.

Also the highest percent of R1b is among Non-IE Basques and Genetiker found R1b-M269 in Neolithic Iberia (and several other researchers confirmed his calls, AFAIK - Maciamo also thinks that it is legit). This is kind of troublesome, unless you want to claim that PIE homeland was Iberia.

Also vast majority of R1b from Yamnaya is Z2103, which is Eastern R1b. There is not a single sample of R1b-L51 from there.

According to some researchers, if R1b-L51 really came from the steppe, then it did so before the emergence of Yamnaya culture.

So people who insist that Khvalynsk wasn't PIE, but only Yamnaya was, will need to acknowledge that R1b-L51 is not PIE.

And why not buy dominance like in India, Hungary, Turkey and many attested others.

Because "Steppe PIE / Yamnaya" autosomal DNA is high in R1a-rich areas - and lower in Western Europe.

By contrast, "Original East Asian Turkic" autosomal DNA is indeed low in Turkey.

High steppe Y-DNA + low steppe autosomal fits better a "dominance by a few steppe chieftains" model, than the opposite.

Women are actually more important in passing down autosomal DNA. But they don't have Y-DNA.

Basques have a lot of R1b-L51, yet autosomally they are pretty much Non-Indo-European (linguistically too).

 

[Tomenable]

By the way - Bichon (new WHG sample) and Loschbour combined; so WHG admixture:

 

[Rethel]

R1b-V88 is not related to PIE at all, neither in ancient DNA (Neolithic Iberia) nor in modern DNA (Sub-Saharans).

How can you possibly know, that in Iberia (or before) they do not speak IE-related language?

R1b-M343 didn't speak PIE. R1b-M269 started to speak PIE language, older subclades (such as R1b-V88) didn't.

The same as above.

 

[LeBrok]

But 99% of R1a in the world is young M417, and it correlates very well with PIE expansion, both in aDNA and now.

Just like most of I1 is young and correlates with Germanic migrations (are there any subclades of I1 which aren't Germanic)?

As for R1b - here indeed we have some major subclades which do not correlate with IE. For example Chadic V88:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chadic_languages

We also have V88 in Neolithic Iberia, and those people didn't speak PIE (maybe they spoke Chadic, maybe something else).



There are many areas with more CHG than India, but very low percent of J2 and R1b, look carefully at those maps.



So far I have 71+ Ancient samples of R1a as evidence, and overwhelmimg majority of them are from IE cultures.

On the other hand R1b (45+ Ancient pre-Medieval samples) is a little bit more ambiguous. Not to mention J2.

I never said that R1b and R1a wasn't CHG carriers as IEs. I only pointed to missing J2. I'm not sure why you want to convince me to what I'm agreeing to?

Also vast majority of R1b from Yamnaya is Z2103, which is Eastern R1b. There is not a single sample of R1b-L51 from there.

According to some researchers, if R1b-L51 really came from the steppe, then it did so before the emergence of Yamnaya culture.

So people who insist that Khvalynsk wasn't PIE, but only Yamnaya was, will need to acknowledge that R1b-L51 is not PIE.

Yamnaya was big, about 1 million sq km. Lets wait for samples from west Yamnaya, or better from every corner of it. I'm sure we'll find few surprises.

 

[RobertColumbia]

I think the confusion is because many users here are from the USA, and they all speak English, but declare different "cultures" (for example - French, African, German, Italian, even "American"),....

That's an interesting point. Fischer's thesis is that 'American culture' as such does not actually exist, and that the USA has retained at least four of the cultures of early settler groups.

 

[Rethel]

That's an interesting point. Fischer's thesis is that 'American culture' as such does not actually exist, and that the USA has retained at least four of the cultures of early settler groups.

But the difference is, that IE were 1) one patrydescendent tribe which
2) has one original language and 3) developed some culture. This is the
only right order. Everything else is non existing problems.

 

[Tomenable]

How do languages evolve:

 

[Arame]

IE is not the only group where two different "father" clans are part of a same linguistic group.
Look at the Nakh-Dagestani linguistic family.
The Daguestani branch is almost purely J1-Z1828 branch (75% of males ). J2 is very low, lower than 3-4%.
While the Nakh branch is very high in J2-M67. Some Nakh groups like Ingushes has no J1.