What is the Next Step Towards Greater European Unification?
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LeBrok
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Who knows, but it will be a long and slow process. Politically and economically Europe should be completely united in 100 years, culturally anything from 200 to a thousand.
Cimmerianbloke
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The way things are going, Europe could be under charia law within 100 years... As a political entity, the form we know is bound to disappear and, if the world were perfect, we should see the euro and most treaties trashed to have a constitution that would second all national laws. In this perfect Europe, every representant would be elected by national or universal suffrage...
The answer I give to your question is that next step for Europe is to go back a number of steps to better jump.
The answer I give to your question is that next step for Europe is to go back a number of steps to better jump.
LeBrok
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I feel the scare too, but I have to add that all nations, under strong religious laws, are not compatible with good capitalist/free market economy, which highly encourages freedoms and economic progress. Therefore, every country that is or will be under sharia law is going to be weak and of little influence. In mean time some european countries should reform their emigration policy.
I'm actually optimistic, and given few more decades we should see more democratic countries in Near East. Tribal laws, customs and way of life together with sharia law should be gone. The example is Iran, the "greatest" Muslim country is close to political disintegration. Let's give them 5 more years till next "spring". T
here is no other way for the world to coexist peacefully but through tolerance and inclusiveness. Granted there always will be few enclaves of religious radicalism/conservatism, but they'll be insulated like Amish in USA.
In economy it is called recession, in stock market "correction", in genetics "bottle necking". It might be a natural law of any progress. We might need to jump 10 times till coherent and ubiquitous EU is created. We should include it in basic education, so nobody despairs and panic every time a correction of EU happens.
LeBrok
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For my taste, they didn't go far enough in both. In FCB even the soccer ball looks ridiculous these days, not mentioning the crown, the feudal past of monstrous inequality. They should go into simple symbols (beauty in simplicity) like Canadian flag or Greek, I might add.well just look the photos
why?
Yetos, you might start worry when you see Muslim or sharia symbols there. So far they are trying to be egalitarian, and that's a good sign.
Just spend money on good artists, for god sake!
Cimmerianbloke
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Hi Lebrok, you have a very interesting theory, but here is what I think about it. You are right when you talk about religious extremisms in America, because the country was founded by minorities that were repressed in their own lands, and based their society around the US constitution. There was then a clear separation of religion and state. Islam does not work that way. Religion and politics are one. Being an expensionist religion, that tolerates violence as a means of spreading its influence, it seems very unlikely to develop a soften version compatible with European values. On the contrary, our European tolerance to everything, even ideologies that promote our demise, in the name of social peace and freedom of expression is leading us straight into the wall. I also believe the families in power in some small kingdoms of the Gulf will do as much as possible to make sure the troublemakers that could put their power at risk will sendbe sent off to Europe or America to fight the Great Satan in order to spend their petrodollars in peace. The recent arab spring has shown that given the gift of democracy, these nations tend to vote for islamic parties that favour sharia law. So much for democracy...
Now the angry bit... I have found your comments about the football clubs very offensive. I have lived in Catalonia for several years, and the FC Barcelona there is an institution greater than the Spanish state. It is a symbol of catalanism, which was during Franco's years in power a way to express their identity. The cross that has been reduced to a vertical line is Saint Georges cross, Saint Patron of Catalonia and England. The ball is out of fashion because it is the kind of ball that was in use at the time of the creation of the club, back in 1889. The other shield belongs to the Real Madrid. It has a crown due to the demonination of the club (Real means royal) and is topped by a cross to underline the christian faith of the Bourbon royal family. Like it or not, Spain is a monarchy and this is an integral part of the historic background of the club.
My problem is the following: First read a resume of the whole story here:
http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=72835&pageid=24&pagename=Society
As a citizen of Canada, how would you feel if the Maple leaf had to be removed from the Canadian flag because it hurts muslim or whoever else's sensibilities? Personally, I'd tell the muslims or whoever else to f&!ßk themselves and go back to their own patch of desert to ban all the crosses and maple leaves they fancy. These clubs are selling their identity in the name of the huge debts they have accumulated due to the stiff international competition and need to find new sources of incomes. That sounds a lot like most governments at the moment. What if some bearded imam finds the Union Jack offensive to his community, or the national Greek flag or the Piast eagles on the Polish flags? As I see it, it's a matter of time. Europe needs to stop bowing to intolerant medieval ideologies and assume its past and present to build a future respectful of its identity and sensibilities. We owe it to our children...
On the subject of the recession, I admire your description and the very politically correct "correction" term. I am also convinced we will eventually build a Europe through trial and error processes. My concern is that the eejits in charge did not take the opportunity to make these adjustments after the 2008 crisis, while the banking system was on its knees and ripe to be plucked and cooked into a system more respectful of human values proned by our Dear Leaders... As the saying goes, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...
Now the angry bit... I have found your comments about the football clubs very offensive. I have lived in Catalonia for several years, and the FC Barcelona there is an institution greater than the Spanish state. It is a symbol of catalanism, which was during Franco's years in power a way to express their identity. The cross that has been reduced to a vertical line is Saint Georges cross, Saint Patron of Catalonia and England. The ball is out of fashion because it is the kind of ball that was in use at the time of the creation of the club, back in 1889. The other shield belongs to the Real Madrid. It has a crown due to the demonination of the club (Real means royal) and is topped by a cross to underline the christian faith of the Bourbon royal family. Like it or not, Spain is a monarchy and this is an integral part of the historic background of the club.
My problem is the following: First read a resume of the whole story here:
http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=72835&pageid=24&pagename=Society
As a citizen of Canada, how would you feel if the Maple leaf had to be removed from the Canadian flag because it hurts muslim or whoever else's sensibilities? Personally, I'd tell the muslims or whoever else to f&!ßk themselves and go back to their own patch of desert to ban all the crosses and maple leaves they fancy. These clubs are selling their identity in the name of the huge debts they have accumulated due to the stiff international competition and need to find new sources of incomes. That sounds a lot like most governments at the moment. What if some bearded imam finds the Union Jack offensive to his community, or the national Greek flag or the Piast eagles on the Polish flags? As I see it, it's a matter of time. Europe needs to stop bowing to intolerant medieval ideologies and assume its past and present to build a future respectful of its identity and sensibilities. We owe it to our children...
On the subject of the recession, I admire your description and the very politically correct "correction" term. I am also convinced we will eventually build a Europe through trial and error processes. My concern is that the eejits in charge did not take the opportunity to make these adjustments after the 2008 crisis, while the banking system was on its knees and ripe to be plucked and cooked into a system more respectful of human values proned by our Dear Leaders... As the saying goes, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...
LeBrok
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I guess I have less romantic and less christian point of view.
I would gladly discuss some more, but it is very later here, I'm going to bed.
Later
From Wiki:
It sounded better when you described the history. Real story is more bumpy and prosaic. These days it is more about marketing and international stars and viewers. It also mean that sport clubs and businesses have to adopt to new environment.
Changes yes, demise no. I'm pretty sure we would hear the same arguments from our pagan ancestors when Christianity was coming. And look at us now, are we any worse than they were?
I agree that Europe should select more suitable emigrants and not anyone who only come for social services and all the material goodies. Emigrants, coming to Europe, Canada or USA, should first of all admire and cherish european principals of freedom, equality and tolerance.
Should we analyze how Germany, France, Italy or Spain came to be democratic countries, how about all eastern block? Russia is still to become one. Process wasn't easy in Europe either, but somehow we tend to forget about tough beginnings, and go around proudly displaying our superiority and indifference.
I would gladly discuss some more, but it is very later here, I'm going to bed.
Later
edao
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What's happening in Germany that you fear Muslims are about to take over? The removal af a couple of crosses from football badges is hardly a crisis.
I think you need to stop taking yourself so seriously, you were offended by comments about a football club! The whole Catalan thing is pretty uninteresting, they are just another tribe who think they are better than all the other tribes - nationalism is for Turkeys. If they outlawed the union jack or the St Andrew's flag and had a just a blue panel I can't say I'd care less, its just a bit of material flapping in the wind.
zanipolo
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The next step is to get rid of all nations and replace them with regional areas. nations prevent a true european union.
BTW , the heraldry cross means Faith, a celtic cross means unity of heaven and earth, a maltese cross means purity. all crosses means something other than christianity in heraldric terms.
same with the moon does not mean islamic in heraldry. IIRC portsmouth football club has a moon for a symbol.
Cimmerianbloke
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I agree that the crosses thing is a detail, as are the removal of Christmas trees in all public Belgian buildings and the redenomination of the Christmas holidays in order not to offend our muslim guests. The question is to find where ends their touchiness. Take over? there's a thing called demographics that proves that someday in the near future, Brits will be the ethnic minority, as in most of continental Europe. No need to be a genius to understand that, go for a stroll in Bradford for a preview...
Symbols are an important of human culture, and you are free to give your national flag, your national pride, your national anthem, your language and the way you dress as little importance as you like, but these and other markers are for others than you, and for some groups an integral and important part of their culture and identity. As a Scotch, you might be aware of that even though in your infinite wisdom, you probably are well over such petty earthly concerns and are aware that " all matter is mearly energy condensed through a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, life is only a dream and we are the imaginations of ourselves." :-D(Bill Hicks). As for taking myself seriously, I also post every now and then on Sickipedia...
Cimmerianbloke
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So your answer is to get rid of the 27 nations and install a Europe of 120 or so regions... Somebody has to explain me where is the logic...
zanipolo
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As per Gianfranco Miglio who was Inspired by Max Weber and Carl Schmitt, Miglio's works have analysed prevailing power structures in politics, parliamentarianism and bureaucracies. An advocate of federalism
If you read about federalism it the only way a EU can work as Nations are far too individually powerful and so always have options of going "there own way". Besides all nations in majority are centralist governments and you need a de-centralist type of system to be equitable for a union.
The USA to a degree is de-centralist, same as Australia
Cimmerianbloke
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Thanks for the tip, Zanipolo, but I am Belgian, so I can teach these experts all the misery federalism brings. Just for the sake of the argument, I will debate the fact that yes, federalism works fine in the US and Australia. That is primarily because they share one common language and one system, with the states complementing federal laws. I won't even try to start to try to explain Belgian federalism, it's ridiculously complicated, and the several layers of federal governmental, community and local authorities make the most of milking the taxpayer and pretend to provide public services. I reckon that US-style federalism is appealing for Belgians because there is a handful of elected representants at work for a huge population( Belgium has at the moment 19 federal ministers and state secretaries for a population of 10,5 million, France 33 for 65 million). Pooling our political talents would surely be beneficial and save tremendous amounts of time and money, along with running the continent smoothly and efficiently, but bickering, transnational jealousies, grudges and agendas would make it stall in no time. A Europe of the regions has been studied by French born Cambridge scholar Emmanuel Todd in his fantastic essay "L'Invention de l'Europe", where he dissects the continent's cleavages through family patterns, languages and socio-economic conditions (not yet translated in English...).
Cimmerianbloke
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Here is the map he comes with, based on the actual provinces/departments/counties carving, on pages 8 and 25. (incomplete, please ignore the colour codes, just focus on the carving)
www.coleurope.eu/file/content/.../BEER10.pdf
Pretty confusing, isn't it? even in leaving the main areas together (French régions, Belgium in 3 régions instead of 9 provinces, Spain in 17 communities,...) we would still arrive at a ridiculously high number of areas with specific problems that would make it unmanageable for a central government (and that is without going near the languages issue). Federal Europe an utopia? rather a sweet dream, waiting for humanity to put aside its differences to start living the dream. But do we really want to be clones living in a superstate?
www.coleurope.eu/file/content/.../BEER10.pdf
Pretty confusing, isn't it? even in leaving the main areas together (French régions, Belgium in 3 régions instead of 9 provinces, Spain in 17 communities,...) we would still arrive at a ridiculously high number of areas with specific problems that would make it unmanageable for a central government (and that is without going near the languages issue). Federal Europe an utopia? rather a sweet dream, waiting for humanity to put aside its differences to start living the dream. But do we really want to be clones living in a superstate?
The next step is already under way. It is the fiscal and financial union. Once people pay their taxes to the EU and the EU redistributes to the member states, it will already feel much more like a federal state. There is already a permanent EU president and foreign minister, but their power is too limited. Another step would be to reinforce their roles (at least for foreign affairs), so that the EU can really speak with one powerful voice in the international community.
Another very important step is to unify the immigration policies in each member state (Schengen visa area) so that potential immigrants cannot shop from embassy to embassy for a Schengen visa anymore. At present, if someone is refused a visa, say at the French embassy, nothing prevents them to try at the German or Italian embassy, and so on, until they get a visa, which will be valid everywhere. Protecting EU borders against illegal immigration is also another vital matter which requires closer integration.
Another very important step is to unify the immigration policies in each member state (Schengen visa area) so that potential immigrants cannot shop from embassy to embassy for a Schengen visa anymore. At present, if someone is refused a visa, say at the French embassy, nothing prevents them to try at the German or Italian embassy, and so on, until they get a visa, which will be valid everywhere. Protecting EU borders against illegal immigration is also another vital matter which requires closer integration.
Yetos
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The next step is a division of EU,
the strong Euro did not like some 'allies' and send their Goldman Sachs agents to destroy it,
Soon Eu will be in 2 gears, The Central and the rest provinces,
maybe soon Eu will be just a fiscal union of not even half countries,
the next 2 years are very important since we might have the Greek 'rebellion' against Eu then Hungary Spain Portugal Ireland maybe the whole British island and I don't know about Italy, it seems that the Next Eu fiscal union will be just a federation of Germanic and Baltic countries, with Berlin to be the head of the after fiscal union, Imperial policy, and France to balance where she wants to be.
the strong Euro did not like some 'allies' and send their Goldman Sachs agents to destroy it,
Soon Eu will be in 2 gears, The Central and the rest provinces,
maybe soon Eu will be just a fiscal union of not even half countries,
the next 2 years are very important since we might have the Greek 'rebellion' against Eu then Hungary Spain Portugal Ireland maybe the whole British island and I don't know about Italy, it seems that the Next Eu fiscal union will be just a federation of Germanic and Baltic countries, with Berlin to be the head of the after fiscal union, Imperial policy, and France to balance where she wants to be.
zanipolo
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how can you get a union when each country is not regarded as equal to another ( in the union ). Is Portugal equal to France, is Greece equal to Belgium, etc etc...the answer is no
Break up the EU nations into regions and each region will be equal to another. The only nation in europe which has a "union" system is switzerland where each canton is equal to another. Actually the swiss nation is basically a confederation of states forming a nation. Basically a miniture system of what the EU should be.
This system will also help this walloon, flemish issue as they will be split and regarded as equals.
To conclude, you will never get a true EU .
As for fiscal issues, well it was already suggest to bring a new monetary system in late 2009 (euro2) based only as trade money within the EU and solely business orientated. This is placed on hold from what I recently read.
Cimmerianbloke
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I totally agree with Yetos on the 2 speed Europe concept. I would even go further and advocate a Europe where a core nucleus of members would supervise less dynamic economies in a kind of graded levels to follow before reaching full membership rights and benefits, like adding progressively hot water to your bath to avoid being burned, or video games levels. That would give an opportunity for these members to gradually adapt their realities to the European requirements in matter of competition, free trade and socio-economic developments. Each stage has to be fully completed before starting another step of the process. That would of course lead on a hierarchy of members, but it is only a reflection of what the situation is like today, the difference being the most powerful nucleus could not bully weaker members because of the strict curriculum to follow. The fiscal integration Maciamo mentions is IMO a mirage, as the dynamics of money transfers would stay the same: richer members would pay for the poorest, the north pays for the south. Hardly an improvement to settle existing quarrels...
A Europe of the regions seems to be a sensible choice, but we are faced with huge problems. Where should we start? Europe since the fall of the Roman Empire has seen her natural frontiers overran by political, religious, ethnic, linguistic carvings. Cutting out a neat map of regions is impossible, there will always be aberrations and groups that would feel despoiled. More trouble than the relative efforts it would cost. I also believe that if some politicians are willing to play sorcerer's apprentices, some will complain that is not what they sign their membership for and will be reluctant to further give away more of their sovereign rights, especially the nations that recovered their sovereignty barely 20 years ago...
A Europe of the regions seems to be a sensible choice, but we are faced with huge problems. Where should we start? Europe since the fall of the Roman Empire has seen her natural frontiers overran by political, religious, ethnic, linguistic carvings. Cutting out a neat map of regions is impossible, there will always be aberrations and groups that would feel despoiled. More trouble than the relative efforts it would cost. I also believe that if some politicians are willing to play sorcerer's apprentices, some will complain that is not what they sign their membership for and will be reluctant to further give away more of their sovereign rights, especially the nations that recovered their sovereignty barely 20 years ago...
edao
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I can't see how a two speed Europe could work. I think you either sign up for the future full integration or you look to pull out, so far only the UK looks like it has had enough.
For member saying yes to integration and being handed A Membership and B Membership would be as unacceptable as doing it within a country itself. It would d be like handing citizens cards denominating their class and value in society, your working class these are your rights, your middle class these are your rights. You also have to remember that Germany might be putting up money for bailouts, but with the rising cost of borrowing for Italy and Spain, Germany are seeing record low levels on funding their own debts as investor flock to Germany's safer bonds. Every cloud has a sliver (arrow) lining.
For member saying yes to integration and being handed A Membership and B Membership would be as unacceptable as doing it within a country itself. It would d be like handing citizens cards denominating their class and value in society, your working class these are your rights, your middle class these are your rights. You also have to remember that Germany might be putting up money for bailouts, but with the rising cost of borrowing for Italy and Spain, Germany are seeing record low levels on funding their own debts as investor flock to Germany's safer bonds. Every cloud has a sliver (arrow) lining.