What language group did Europeans speak in the Neolithic? Vasconic languages? Uralic?

Lithuanians have 40% N1c1.Are they finno-ugric?!
The theoriy N1c1 equal finno-ugric is a pseudoscientific absurdity.

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpN.html

Lithuanians have almost as much R1a as N1c, so it could have been a situation where two groups mixed, with the members of one group being IE speakers and the members of the other group being Uralic speakers and by whatever chance of fate the IE speakers were able to impose their language. Estonians are also a fairly equal mixture of R1a and N1c but speak a Uralic language, so I guess in their case the Uralic faction became dominant for whatever reason.
 
1.There is no evidnce that Ualic languages originated in W. Siberia.

2.There is no evidence today that N1c1 brought Uralic languages to Europe.

3. It has been proposed that the area where Proto-Finno-Ugric was spoken reached between the Baltic Sea and the Ural Mountains.

Abdeen:

"Lithuanians have almost as much R1a as N1c..."

Hugarians have aprox. the same amount of R1a but they are not slavic speaking.
 
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gyms, Hungarians were majority Slavic speaking until the 17th century when the forced Magiarization started. There are documents in which Magiar nobles are complaing that no one speaks Magiar language. There are actually no old documents written in Magiar, only in Slavic, German and Latin. Even the coronation cap of the St Stephen of Hungary has text embroidered in Church Slavonic. Why?

Hungarians are not an example of how language and genes are not related. They are an example of how a powerful minority can force a language on a majority....Another example is forcing of the English language on the Irish...

R1a population is directly linked to Indo Arian languages...
 
Here is the picture of the St Stephen's coronation cap. It is currently kept in Habsburg museum in Viena:

451b.jpg
 
N1c is divided mainly between speakers of Uralic, Turkic and Indo-European languages plus some northeast Siberian languages, and it is possible that these language groups can primarily be identified on the basis of the substrates they contain, and the language that a certain y DNA, e.g. N1c may have spoken in the remote past can be something very different from all above languages, and this applies to other yDNAs as well.
 
gyms, Hungarians were majority Slavic speaking until the 17th century when the forced Magiarization started. There are documents in which Magiar nobles are complaing that no one speaks Magiar language. There are actually no old documents written in Magiar, only in Slavic, German and Latin. Even the coronation cap of the St Stephen of Hungary has text embroidered in Church Slavonic. Why?

Hungarians are not an example of how language and genes are not related. They are an example of how a powerful minority can force a language on a majority....Another example is forcing of the English language on the Irish...

R1a population is directly linked to Indo Arian languages...

Here is the picture of the St Stephen's coronation cap. It is currently kept in Habsburg museum in Viena:

Jesus Christ,oldeuropeanculture!

America 30 years after the end of Second World War, in 1978. Since then, the mantle has been kept in the Hungarian National Museum in special light, humidity and security conditions.

http://www.hnm.hu/en/kiall/kia_allando5.html

Is this slavic?
ANNo INcARNACIONIS XPI : MXXXI :INDICCIONE : XIIII A STEPHANO REGE ET GISLA REGINA CASULA HEC OPERATAET DATA ECCLESIAE SANCTA MARIAE SITAE IN CIVITATE ALBA.
http://www.hnm.hu/en/kiall/kia_allando5.html

The Latin language was made official in the country—especially in the 11th to 15th centuries, the language of literature and religion was Latin. However, Hungarian was used in certain cases; sometimes it was fitted into Latin documents, to avoid later disputes about proprietary rights.
However, the first official document of Hungary is not in Latin, but in Greek—this is the "Charter of the nuns of Veszprémvölgy",[7] dated to 997. The text contains some Hungarian (and also some Slavic) place names: saɣarbrien (compound formed from saɣar 'shaft' + an obsolete Turkic loanword, brien 'coalition'—today Szárberény); saːmtaɣ 'plough'; meleɡdi (from meleg 'warm' + -di diminutive suffix); and so on.
The next most important document is the "Establishing charter of the abbey of Tihany", dated to 1055. In the Latin text, 3 Hungarian sentences, 58 words, and 33 suffixes are present. The longest sentence is "fɛhɛːrvaːru reaː mɛnɛɣ hodu utu reaː" (original transcript: feheruuaru rea meneh hodu utu rea; modern Hungarian: "Fehérvárra menő hadi útra"—the postposition "rea", meaning "onto", became the suffix "-ra/-re"—English: 'up to the military road going to Fehérvár'). Today, the vellum is kept in the abbey of Pannonhalma.

Hungarian words in the founding declaration of the Benedictine Abbey of Tihany, 1055



The Old Hungarian poem "Laments of Mary"


Skipping intermediate Hungarian relics, the next important point is the "Funeral Sermon and Prayer", from 1192. This is the first completely Hungarian text. The document is located on the 154th page of the Codex Pray (Pray here is not English; it is a name). The sermon begins with the words "laːtjaːtuk fɛlɛim symtyxːɛl mik voɟmuk iʃaː por eʃ xomou voɟmuk"[8]—"Do you see, my friends, what we are: truly, we are only dust and ash."
Literature in Hungarian is counted since the previous writing. The first known Hungarian poem has the title 'Laments of Mary'—its theme is the story of Jesus' crucifixion, from the viewpoint of Mary. It was denoted around 1300, but possibly it is not the first version—its text is clear, easy to understand and logical, free of latinisms. The first verse:
volɛːk ʃirolm tudotlon
ʃirolmol ʃɛpɛdik
buol osuk, ɛpedɛk
I was lament-ignorant;
I am suffering from lament,
I am suffering, languishing from sorrow.
The next important relic—with a cheerless history—is the "Fragment of Königsberg", dated approximately to the 1350s. This is the remain of the first known, explicitly proven Hungarian book. The codex had arrived at Wrocław, Poland, by the end of the century; there, because of it was not understandable to the Polish bookbinder, it was chopped and used to bind a Latin book. The other important book from the time is the Codex Jókay; a 15th-century copy of the original from 1372. The codex is about the life of Francis of Assisi.

A copy of the Hussite Bible, in the Codex of Munich, dated to 1466


In the early 15th century, some not comprehensive Latin-Hungarian dictionaries—or rather word listings—were composed. Some shorter texts are also known. Regardless of these, the most important work is the first translation of the Bible: this is the Hussite Bible, dated to 1430. The Bible was translated by Tamás Pécsi and Bálint Ujlaki; both were priests. They were affected by the concepts of Jan Hus during their university years (1399–1411) in Prague. The Inquisition pursued these concepts, and the translation was confiscated from the translators; anyway, it became such popular that there are several authentic copies of the original.
More and more Hungarian books were written; most of them is religious. Over and above the "Laments of Mary", the other important item of Old Hungarian poetry is the "Fight of Šabac".[9] Reputedly it was denoted in the year of the battle (1476); in this, Hungarian troops led by King Matthias of Hungary had a glorious victory over the Ottoman army—its issue is secular. Possibly it is a fragment of a longer poem. A quotation:
dɛ ɑz feʎːøːl mondot paːl keneʒi
aːroknɑk meːʎʃeːɡeːt iɡen nezi
ki ʃɑbatʃ erøːʃ voltaːt ɛlmeːlːeː
honːeːɡ minemøː aːlɟuː kel mɛlːeː
But, Pál Kinizsi said about the thing,
who was regarding the dike's depth;
who knew the powerfulness of Šabac:
what sort of cannons should be brought from where.
In the 1490s, Hungarian was spoken by about 3.2 million people; this number was fairly high at the time. The first examples of official and legal use are dated back to these years. Some personal letters and wills are known. Nevertheless, the Ottoman Empire put pressure on neighbouring nations, just like on Hungary—the latter was unstable at the time, due to internal lordship debates. This led to the Hungarian (led by Louis II of Hungary) loss of the Battle of Mohács (1526). In 1541, Ottomans finally captured the capital, Buda as well. The country was split up to three parts; the southern regions fell under Ottoman rule; the western parts officially remained "Kingdom of Hungary", with Habsburg kings; and the eastern area, mainly Transylvania and the Partium became independent.
Some Old Hungarian script inscriptions are also known, such as the "Alphabet of Nikolsburg" (1483) and a number of deciphered and undeciphered inscriptions. Historic linguists put the end of the Old Hungarian period to 1526, as it is a such important date in Hungarian history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Hungarian_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funeral_Sermon_and_Prayer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Crown_of_Hungary

Yuo are not Irish.
 
N1c is divided mainly between speakers of Uralic, Turkic and Indo-European languages plus some northeast Siberian languages, and it is possible that these language groups can primarily be identified on the basis of the substrates they contain, and the language that a certain y DNA, e.g. N1c may have spoken in the remote past can be something very different from all above languages, and this applies to other yDNAs as well.

Actually, neither N1c or any other Y haplotype speak any language. However, a language group may develop among a people who are predominantly of one particular haplotype and the evidence suggests that the Uralic languages developed among people who were predominantly N1c and who probably lived somewhere in western Siberia (although it could have happened on the west side of the Urals). However, over time, and as various groups migrate to different places and dominate over one another, the link between haplotype and language becomes less strong, so we eventually have a situation such as the one in modern Hungary where people who have very little N1c speak a Uralic language - it's just a fluke of history.

I don't know why Hungarians and Finns freak out about the possibility of Uralic having possibly originated in western Siberia or N1c migrating into Europe from the east. Haplotype R seems to have originated in the Altaic region and can still be found spread around Asia but R1a and R1b people in Europe certainly aren't considered Asian. And I don't understand why having some "Asian" ancestry would be considered a problem anyway.
 
Aberdeen:the evidence suggests that the Uralic languages developed among people who were predominantly N1c..."

What´s the evidence?

The exonym "Hungarian" is thought to be derived from Ugor or the Bulgar-Turkic On-Ogur (meaning "ten" Ogurs),[22] which was the name of the Utigur Bulgar tribal confederacy that ruled the eastern parts of Hungary after the Avars.

The Greek cognate of Tourkia (Greek: Τουρκία) was used by the Byzantine emperor and scholar Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus in his book De Administrando Imperio,[30][31] though in his use, "Turks" always referred to Magyars.[32]
 
Actually, neither N1c or any other Y haplotype speak any language. However, a language group may develop among a people who are predominantly of one particular haplotype and the evidence suggests that the Uralic languages developed among people who were predominantly N1c and who probably lived somewhere in western Siberia (although it could have happened on the west side of the Urals). However, over time, and as various groups migrate to different places and dominate over one another, the link between haplotype and language becomes less strong, so we eventually have a situation such as the one in modern Hungary where people who have very little N1c speak a Uralic language - it's just a fluke of history.

I don't know why Hungarians and Finns freak out about the possibility of Uralic having possibly originated in western Siberia or N1c migrating into Europe from the east. Haplotype R seems to have originated in the Altaic region and can still be found spread around Asia but R1a and R1b people in Europe certainly aren't considered Asian. And I don't understand why having some "Asian" ancestry would be considered a problem anyway.
I myself am still wondering whether some subclades of N1c and haplogroup Q are purely European.

Most people think that haplogroup Q in Europe is from a Hun (Mongoloid) origin. But this theory to me; seems quite unlikely, or exaggerated. It may have possibly came with R1a and R1b Indo-Europeans at a very small frequency.

If haplogroup Q is purely Mongoloid; it still does not explain why Levantine peoples like the Phoenicians and Jews carry haplogroup Q1b; without ever coming in contact with Mongoloids.

And as history points out; Phoenicians were already in the Southern Iberian peninsula; and were probably the first tribe to claim Lisbon as a colony. And evidently; there are small traces of Q1b found in Southern Portugal and Spain; along with the lineages seen in Sicily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Iberia#Phoenician_colonies_and_influence Maybe all the way back as 10th Century BC; maybe.

The Huns did not enter Europe until 5th century AD; with the Hunnic Empire.

If haplogroup Q is purely Mongoloid; how did these Phoenicians; isolated in the Near East/Levant area, pick up Y-DNA Q1b? So, some subclades of Q could be Caucasian. The same may apply for the rest of the Europeans who carry Q1a. An Indo-European origin theory might be a better alternative to a Mongoloid invasion (of Europe) origin.
 
I don't know why Hungarians and Finns freak out about the possibility of Uralic having possibly originated in western Siberia or N1c migrating into Europe from the east. Haplotype R seems to have originated in the Altaic region and can still be found spread around Asia but R1a and R1b people in Europe certainly aren't considered Asian. And I don't understand why having some "Asian" ancestry would be considered a problem anyway.
I can feel this defensive attitude in some Finns and Hungarians.
 
I may be defensive if that is how you want to see it, but personally I think that I am only interested in scientific research, logical thinking and getting new insights into the history and not only repeating the same old stereotypes over and over again without any supportive evidence.
 
I myself am still wondering whether some subclades of N1c and haplogroup Q are purely European.

Most people think that haplogroup Q in Europe is from a Hun (Mongoloid) origin. But this theory to me; seems quite unlikely, or exaggerated. It may have possibly came with R1a and R1b Indo-Europeans at a very small frequency.

If haplogroup Q is purely Mongoloid; it still does not explain why Levantine peoples like the Phoenicians and Jews carry haplogroup Q1b; without ever coming in contact with Mongoloids.

And as history points out; Phoenicians were already in the Southern Iberian peninsula; and were probably the first tribe to claim Lisbon as a colony. And evidently; there are small traces of Q1b found in Southern Portugal and Spain; along with the lineages seen in Sicily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Iberia#Phoenician_colonies_and_influence Maybe all the way back as 10th Century BC; maybe.

The Huns did not enter Europe until 5th century AD; with the Hunnic Empire.

If haplogroup Q is purely Mongoloid; how did these Phoenicians; isolated in the Near East/Levant area, pick up Y-DNA Q1b? So, some subclades of Q could be Caucasian. The same may apply for the rest of the Europeans who carry Q1a. An Indo-European origin theory might be a better alternative to a Mongoloid invasion (of Europe) origin.

Q1b is highly likely to have been a Khazar indicator of East Asian "Turkic" stock, and spread with the jewish diaspora among some other eastern peoples. I'm not sure why you bothered to bring up Phoenicians since we don't have any ancient DNA from this era or historical region at all.
 
I can feel this defensive attitude in some Finns and Hungarians.
Indeed; it probably would upset them a little to know that they were not purely European and/or had Mongoloid origins.

But then again; it seems almost all European cultures in the Neolithic may have carried E-V13; and E developed in Africa. It was replaced by R1a and R1b in the IE invasion.

My only explanation (hypothesis) is that all these haplogroups mutated/developed when most races were concentrated to a single Negroid population; possibly in the Caucasus or Central Asia area. A few Negroids migrated West into Europe and became Europeans/Caucasians; the others may have migrated all over and developed into all the other races.

Which may explain why Finnish/Estonians and other Europeans are N1c; while Yakuts may carry N1c as well. As well as the Han Chinese. (at a very low frequency. But R1b is also seen in China at a lower frequency as well.)

(Also, there was a migration of R1b back into Africa; from Central Asia. Like black men in Cameroon; in particular. So it would make sense that these Y-DNA haplogroups may have mutated when most Out of Africa peoples were still Negroid.)
 
Q1b is highly likely to have been a Khazar indicator of East Asian "Turkic" stock, and spread with the jewish diaspora among some other eastern peoples. I'm not sure why you bothered to bring up Phoenicians since we don't have any ancient DNA from this era or historical region at all.
Uhm, yes we do! Read the page for Haplogroup Q on the genetics section of Eupedia; written by Maciamo. Phoenicians carried Q1b and may have spread it around Southern Portugal far longer than the Bronze Age! And Phoenicians lived no where near the Central Asian Khazars at all! Neither did Jews; who developed with Phoenicians in the Levant.

Haplogroup-Q.jpg

Notice the little spread of haplogroup Q in Southern Portugal and Southern Spain; which was brought by Phoenician colonists from North Africa. The ones in Southern Sardinia and Sicily are also of Q1b (Phoenician) extraction.
 
I may be defensive if that is how you want to see it, but personally I think that I am only interested in scientific research, logical thinking and getting new insights into the history and not only repeating the same old stereotypes over and over again without any supportive evidence.

Good point,Kristiina.
Abedeen,I am still waiting for "Your" evidence!

https://hungarianspectrum.wordpress...ers-in-the-hungarian-population-then-and-now/

According to her this skull type shows great similarity to the "early Bulgarians who lived in Magna Hungaria, or in other words, in today's Bashkiria."

She (Erzsébet Fóthi)claims that the early Hungarian upper class's anthropological measurements show a great deal of similarity to the people of today's Bashkiria.
 
From what I know; the Hungarians are a mixture of all kinds of peoples. Not just the original Ugrics. They have possibly Scythian, Slavic, Caucasian (Avar), Germanic. Small traces of Celtic and Roman. All of these peoples were probably once enrolled in a large Ugric caste; and all the Indo-Europeans and Caucasians (for the Avars) languages were dropped in favor of the Hungarian (Uralic) one.
 
N1c is divided mainly between speakers of Uralic, Turkic and Indo-European languages plus some northeast Siberian languages, and it is possible that these language groups can primarily be identified on the basis of the substrates they contain, and the language that a certain y DNA, e.g. N1c may have spoken in the remote past can be something very different from all above languages, and this applies to other yDNAs as well.

can you make the split as follows ?

N1c - Turkic (Yakut)
N1c1 :
- Uralic
- some people (in the Baltics) mixed with Indo-Europeans (mainly R1a)
 
Y-DNA haplogroup N is found throughout Northern Eurasia. Possible points of origin include south-western China, from which the population spread both toward the Baltic region and into Siberia about 10,000 years ago through the Altai region. The dominant N-M46 branch is found widely distributed in Siberia and in northern Europe. At its western extent, the greatest concentration is found among Finns, Latvians and Lithuanians. The N-L708 is the only branch of N-M178 which was found west of the Urals and the N-L550 is typical for the South-Baltic region of Lithuanians, Belorussians and Polish. Plus it is found in Scandinavians and at a concentration of less than 1 percent for the British Isles. N-L1034 is typical for Hungarian samples and indicates the Ugric marker within N-M46.
The less common N-M128 lineage shows a scattered distribution in Asia, with small concentrations in areas of Kazakhstan, Korea and China. The N-P43 branch shows two clusters, one in the Ural-Volga area and the other further east. The undifferentiated N1* population is widely distributed at low levels of occurrence with a weak concentration in Cambodia and southern China. Haplogroup N has also been found at moderate concentration in eastern Europe and at low concetration in Anatolia.

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpN.html
Based on our time to most recent common ancestor data, the L1034 marker arose 2,500 years before present. The overall frequency of the L1034 is very low among the analyzed populations, thus it does not necessarily mean that proto-Hungarians and Mansi descend from common ancestors. It does provide, however, a limited genetic link supporting language contact.
http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2014/09/a-limited-genetic-link-between-mansi.html

 

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