Where can North Africans pass in Europe?

[Wilhelm]

But Arab ancestry in North Africans is minimal except for Egypt and Libya.. so what is the rest of the ancestry of Northwest Africans if it is not authentic Berber?

minimal ? Dodecad Southwest-Asian (peaks in Arabians) : Algeria 16%, Tunisia 12%, Morocco 13%

 

[Mzungu mchagga]

Only in Western Europe then MM? :grin:

Well, I haven't seen many Eastern Europeans who look like North Africans, while many urban West Europeans do!

 

[Bodin]

Most of them ofcourse look only North African , but there is not small amount of them ( around 5%) that could pass as natives in most of Mediteranean lands , especially in Iberia , Malta and Sicilly . I voted for Spain . I believe most simillar to Europeans are Tuaregs . And yes Egyptians are diferent than Magreb populations , but ofcourse there is a lot of similarities to ( more than to Europeans )

 

[oreo_cookie]

I thought Tuaregs were the most Sub-Saharan of Berbers.

 

[Knovas]

Kabyle are the most similar, and they can fit not only in Southern Europe, also in several Northern European regions. You can find very light Berbers between ethnic tribes like this one.

 

[Bodin]

I thought Tuaregs were the most Sub-Saharan of Berbers.

It could be the case , I am not realy shore about they autosomal DNA , but they look most European to me than other Magreb populations- lighter skin , lighter hair , less Arab facial shape ,... , I dont know how is it hapened .
About Kabyli , if I would search for Vandal and Alan from North Africa descendants I would search amongst them . Thanks for answering

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

But Arab ancestry in North Africans is minimal except for Egypt and Libya.. so what is the rest of the ancestry of Northwest Africans if it is not authentic Berber?

Besides Arab (it's not really insignificant), there is a high percentage of SS African.

 

[Just Blaz3d]

Northern-Moroccans (what you have to the other side) are on average 8% sub-saharan and 7% East-African and they cluster with other north-Africans, very far away from any european. So, you see there is abosultely no gradual process at all.

~8% west African btw, and it sampled eastern Moroccans, more specifically, Nadoris, not northern Moroccans―Sarah Tishkoff would have naturally been unfamiliar with the cultural nuances of the country.

Which would you have said, had that been the case?

I think most North Africans are predominantly Berber anyhow, just with ~10/15% Sub-Saharan and another 10% SW Asian. No?

Northwest Africans were ~15% sub-saharan (largely west African mediated gene flow).

The study itself wasn't comprehensive of all northwest Africans, and entirely excluded northeast Africans.

The only "pure" Berbers are the Kabyel, Rifs, Ahmazigs (sp?) and a few tribes in Libya and Tunisia...

Even samples from Morocco's oriental Rif, proved to be "tainted" in Tishkoff's findings (having received various demic influences), so how exactly are these examples of "pure Berbers?" Furthermore, Amazigh (singular)/Imazighen (plural) just refers to Berbers in general, not a particular group or sub-group.

It would have been interesting to see what Tishkoff's figures, would have looked like, had she tested in Tétouan.

...These groups are closest to the original Berbers who migrated west form the Upper Middle East and the Caspian region during the Mesolithic and Neolithic...

There is a lack of autochthonous E-M81 in the near east, it has its likely origins within the maghreb and not western Asia.

...All others who claim Berber identity are pretty well mixed and only culturally Berber.

It could be the case , I am not realy shore about they autosomal DNA , but they look most European to me than other Magreb populations- lighter skin , lighter hair , less Arab facial shape ,... , I dont know how is it hapened...

Are you referencing Tuaregs? If so, this statement is rather confounding? As they are the most southerly of the Berber groups, and have historically had, the most varied contact, with respect to indigenous saharans and sahelians. Even those with a more north coastal African phenotypical pull, appear somewhat mildly admixed. I would provide examples, but it seems I need a minimum ten posts, before being allowed to link URLs.

 

[Bodin]

I was many times with Tuaregs , and they look nearest to Europeans to me ( from all North Africans ) - but it could be personal impresion , I allready said I couldnt explain why that is the case

 

[Carlos]

I was looking for the option anywhere, but not this one. They are fine as they are, they need not resemble any European site, there are very sexy.

 

[Dean]

I agree with Maciamo: nowhere. Here in Spain we can clearly know who is of north african origins and who is not. Only a really tiny small amount of north africans can pass in europe.

 

[Wilhelm]

I agree with Maciamo: nowhere. Here in Spain we can clearly know who is of north african origins and who is not. Only a really tiny small amount of north africans can pass in europe.

Exactly. Seems like common sense to anyone who has lived in Spain, but..there are very strange people in the net.

 

[Carlos]

Roughly not exceptionally some do might fit. Are more attractive than the South Americans.

 

[oreo_cookie]

Roughly not exceptionally some do might fit. Are more attractive than the South Americans.

I agree with this.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Anyone who actually believes that North Africans can pass as native in Spain or Portugal knows little about Iberian phenotypes. The differences are most obvious in a huge majority of cases. A few Kaybles might pass, that's about it. The closest fits are in parts of the Eastern Mediterranean where the indigenous populations have much more Near Eastern admixture by comparison to Western Europe.

 

[Knovas]

What Cambria is saying is quite obvious, and we have the confirmation of this day by day.

 

[Carlos]

^^

Yes, yes son, wrapped their arms. Obviously, you can not spend my life begging to be accepted, remember Ozzy, life is fleeting.

 

[Just Blaz3d]

I was many times with Tuaregs , and they look nearest to Europeans to me ( from all North Africans ) - but it could be personal impresion , I allready said I couldnt explain why that is the case

Lol, wut? I highly doubt you met "real" Tuaregs, I'm skeptical since they tend to be found in the oasis towns of southern Algeria (e.g., Tamanrasset), Mali (e.g., Kidal region), and Niger (e.g., Agadez), for the most part. As I explained to you in my last post, while there are outlier Tuareg (and even then they tend to look mildly admixed), the majority of Tuareg have a very sub-saharan admixed pheno. I'll pm you pictures, since I'm required the mandatory 10 posts, to link in threads; I have absolutely no wish to insensitively spam my way to the mandatory count.

I'll await a reply before messaging you.

Anyone who actually believes that North Africans can pass as native in Spain or Portugal knows little about Iberian phenotypes. The differences are most obvious in a huge majority of cases. A few Kaybles might pass, that's about it...

There are a great many north Africans that could fit in southwestern Europe (in particular some Moroccans). I certainly agree that the majority could not pass for the average Iberian, but however relatively uncommon Nicolas Almagro may look, he still makes up a percentage of the indigenous Iberian population, whose phenotype mirrors some ME/NAs. Almagro looks far more near-eastern than he does north African imo. But, I'd be lying if I didn't admit there weren't north Africans, who were relatively akin to him, in appearance.

...The closest fits are in parts of the Eastern Mediterranean where the indigenous populations have much more Near Eastern admixture by comparison to Western Europe.

The majority of north Africans do not resemble southeastern Europeans, who in many cases (can) resemble west Asians. Typically, when a northwest African looks Europeanish, they resemble southwesterners, more than they do southeasterners.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Lol, wut? I highly doubt you met "real" Tuaregs, I'm skeptical since they tend to be found in the oasis towns of southern Algeria (e.g., Tamanrasset), Mali (e.g., Kidal region), and Niger (e.g., Agadez), for the most part. As I explained to you in my last post, while there are outlier Tuareg (and even then they tend to look mildly admixed), the majority of Tuareg have a very sub-saharan admixed pheno. I'll pm you pictures, since I'm required the mandatory 10 posts, to link in threads; I have absolutely no wish to insensitively spam my way to the mandatory count.

I'll await a reply before messaging you.



There are a great many north Africans that could fit in southwestern Europe (in particular some Moroccans). I certainly agree that the majority could not pass for the average Iberian, but however relatively uncommon Nicolas Almagro may look, he still makes up a percentage of the indigenous Iberian population, whose phenotype mirrors some ME/NAs. Almagro looks far more near-eastern than he does north African imo. But, I'd be lying if I didn't admit there weren't north Africans, who were relatively akin to him, in appearance.



The majority of north Africans do not resemble southeastern Europeans, who in many cases (can) resemble west Asians. Typically, when a northwest African looks Europeanish, they resemble southwesterners, more than they do southeasterners.

I disagree. I've never seen a North African in Spain or Portugal who could pass as a true native (meaning non-Canarian, etc,). The real proof lies in autosomal DNA frequencies (govern phenotype); North Africans cluster nowhere near Iberians.

My point is that you will likely find more phenotypic overlap (although not substantial) between North Africans and people from some areas of the Eastern Mediterranean, since the Near Eastern genomic influences are significantly higher there than in SW Europe.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Lol, wut? I highly doubt you met "real" Tuaregs, I'm skeptical since they tend to be found in the oasis towns of southern Algeria (e.g., Tamanrasset), Mali (e.g., Kidal region), and Niger (e.g., Agadez), for the most part. As I explained to you in my last post, while there are outlier Tuareg (and even then they tend to look mildly admixed), the majority of Tuareg have a very sub-saharan admixed pheno. I'll pm you pictures, since I'm required the mandatory 10 posts, to link in threads; I have absolutely no wish to insensitively spam my way to the mandatory count.

I'll await a reply before messaging you.



There are a great many north Africans that could fit in southwestern Europe (in particular some Moroccans). I certainly agree that the majority could not pass for the average Iberian, but however relatively uncommon Nicolas Almagro may look, he still makes up a percentage of the indigenous Iberian population, whose phenotype mirrors some ME/NAs. Almagro looks far more near-eastern than he does north African imo. But, I'd be lying if I didn't admit there weren't north Africans, who were relatively akin to him, in appearance.



The majority of north Africans do not resemble southeastern Europeans, who in many cases (can) resemble west Asians. Typically, when a northwest African looks Europeanish, they resemble southwesterners, more than they do southeasterners.

BTW, Almargo is a very atypical Spaniard, even for the deep south of Spain. I don't know his background but I would't be at all surprised if he has recent N. African, Canarian or Roma ancestry, which, of course, would make him genetically non-native.