Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

I already presented the facts that the Enchelei where in Budva Montenegro from 600-800BC ..................you clearly do not remember
Taulanti I am unsure.......some state they came from Montenegro and some claim they are a dardanian tribe ...........either way .............historical data states that Philip V of Macedon destroyed them as I recently stated
It has been 3 years since my claim that albanians have about 10% illyrian.......i see no change in this % ...........the only thing they came out of this is that the Labeatae is the most important illyrian tribe bordering Albania and Montenegro
Main article: Labeatae
The Labeates or Labeatae (Ancient Greek: Λαβεᾶται) were an Illyrian tribe that lived (after being defeated by Parmenio) around Scodra.[45]
The disturbing part is to justify this Illyrian claim....some Albanians, have stated that the Epirotes, Paeonians, Dardanians and Macedonians are all Illyrian
..........................


Dardanians were mentioned as Illyrian by many ancient sources, what would be so disturbing to argue they were Illyrian any more than they were not ? If people want to believe they were Thracian be my guest. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I have seen even people claim Albanoi as Thracian.

That Epirotes and Macedonians were Illyrian was never founded by Albanians but actually by Swedish historian Thunmann already back in the 18th century I believe who also believed Albanian were Illyrians. His theory was that since the Macedonians and Epitoes and some of the more Southern Illyrian tribes spoke still Illyrian with other Illyrians more north that Albanian therefor wasn't influenced much by Greek .
 
That is not true. And also Shkrel (Shkodra), Albania, where we got that ID I8471 J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597 (Z609+, Z628+, FT92472-, Z40053-, CTS12554-) dated at ~1788 BCE guy from. The archeological landscape of Albania is diverse and Matt-Painted Ware/Central Southern EBA (and alike) culture off shoots are clearly different from Proto-Illyrian Cetina/Dinaric/IA Glasinac-Mati in the North of the country and therefore not Illyrian. This did and will further reflect in aDNA. Northern Albania (Malesia e Madhe) is still the epi centre of Illyrian presence in Albania.


yes confirmed.....labeates...both in albania and montenegro

https://www.academia.edu/40912097/S...territorial_defense_in_the_Hellenistic_period

 
Dardanians were mentioned as Illyrian by many ancient sources, what would be so disturbing to argue they were Illyrian any more than they were not ? If people want to believe they were Thracian be my guest. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I have seen even people claim Albanoi as Thracian.

That Epirotes and Macedonians were Illyrian was never founded by Albanians but actually by Swedish historian Thunmann already back in the 18th century I believe who also believed Albanian were Illyrians. His theory was that since the Macedonians and Epitoes and some of the more Southern Illyrian tribes spoke still Illyrian with other Illyrians more north that Albanian therefor wasn't influenced much by Greek .


Dardanian are on their own....their own race ............cousins to the Paeonians and nobody else .................they are not illyrian, not thracian, not macedonian
 
Dardanian are on their own....their own race ............cousins to the Paeonians and nobody else .................they are not illyrian, not thracian, not macedonian

I don't know what is up with you people on these platforms that expect us to just accept your pseudo intellectual theories that have no compelling evidence and which you speak with such great confidence.
 
Even Constantine the Great from Nish, modern Serbia was considered Illyrian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great
so you like to play in AD times ................ok
AD times Illyrian provinces are below

that is the solution

all the powers of Europe agreed to these Illyrian provinces ..............this is the AD scenario .............we can stick with this
 
Illyrian provinces is the last recognized European view on where Illyria was

The Illyrian Provinces (Dræave slovinske, Les Provinces Illyriennes). Seven provinces, each with a designated administrative
center, were decreed: Carniola (Ljubljana), Carinthia (Villach), Istria (Trieste),Civil Croatia (Karlovac), Dalmatia (Zadar), Dubrovnik and Kotor
(Dubrovnik), and Military Croatia, the last of which under special military administration. This newly established state covered an area of 55,000 sq km
and had a population of 1,556,000.
 
Do you agree that for a dialect split to occur it requires large amount of speakers ?

Also the dialectal division of the Albanian-speaking area in the Early Middle Ages contradicts the alleged migration of Albanians in the hinterland of Dyrrhachium in the first decades of the 9th century AD, especially because the dialectal division of a linguistic space is in general a result of a number of linguistic phenomena occurring during a considerable span of time and requires a very large number of natural speakers.[39]

According to Hamp Gheg-Tosk split occurred around 400-600 AD

The isogloss is clear in all dialects I have studied, which embrace nearly all types possible. It must be relatively old, that is, dating back into the post-Roman first millennium. As a guess, it seems possible that this isogloss reflects a spread of the speech area, after the settlement of the Albanians in roughly their present location, so that the speech area straddled the Jireček Line.
 
:LOL:
you must be one of these people that state the Epirotes are Illyrian
all major cities in Albania are greek in origin ................from 733BC to the Roman annexation at the time of the Hannibal wars......Durres, Appolonia, Butrint to name 3 of the big towns are all Greek in origin and where still Greek when the Romans moved in .............

You must be one of these people that are obsessed with disconnecting Albanians from their rightful homeland.

You are more obsessed than even Serbs are on these issues. It is annoying. Maybe focus on your neck of the woods.

You have had an agenda from day one, like a broken record, despite all the evidence against you.
 
You must be one of these people that are obsessed with disconnecting Albanians from their rightful homeland.

You are more obsessed than even Serbs are on these issues. It is annoying. Maybe focus on your neck of the woods.

You have had an agenda from day one, like a broken record, despite all the evidence against you.


They are all obsessed. Connecting us with Eastern Balkans and some Thracians from Bulgaria despite it does not match Albanian genetic profile. The question of EV-13 is still up for debate. Even most samples found in Northern Macedonia don't seem to cluster like these Thracians but like Illyrians. Samples found in Ohrid, Skopje etc are like Illyrians . Samples in Kosovo should be the same as these Illyrians too.
 
so you like to play in AD times ................ok
AD times Illyrian provinces are below

that is the solution

all the powers of Europe agreed to these Illyrian provinces ..............this is the AD scenario .............we can stick with this
The terminology was fabricated during Napoleon's reign. These are Slavic inhabited vassal states of Napoleonian France. It does not have anything to do with the ancient population of Illyria since the people living on it today have nothing to with them.
 
They are all obsessed. Connecting us with Eastern Balkans and some Thracians from Bulgaria despite it does not match Albanian genetic profile. The question of EV-13 is still up for debate. Even most samples found in Northern Macedonia don't seem to cluster like these Thracians but like Illyrians. Samples found in Ohrid, Skopje etc are like Illyrians . Samples in Kosovo should be the same as these Illyrians too.
Modern Albanians stem from more than one ancient Balkan group. The Illyrian case is clear cut: Proto-Illyrian EBA (and onwards) Cetina/Dinaric and their successors IA Illyrians, E1b-V13 cannot be associated with their core in any way. If the IA Thracian samples are in majority E1b-V13 then that is what the scientific data suggests, there is no need for putting the label Illyrian on Paeonian IA N. Macedonian or other ancient Balkan samples. Neither genetics nor archeology supports such a false claim. Dardania in IA is the meeting place of three cultural complexes, namely Glasinac-Mati to the West, Brnjica all over and Channeled Ware. This will clearly also reflect in aDNA records of the area.

Scientific papers from both genetics and archeology should be quoted not Wikipedia.
 
You are so obsessed on this part, it's beyond my understanding why, it looks you hold an agenda. So, that's why you claim Enchelei and Taulanti came from Budva, Montenegro quite late despite not having any kind of factual evidence.

Enchelei were at their peak of power during Early Iron Age and they even probably conquered Iron Age ancestors of Ancient Macedonians, Northern Greek tribes were probably paying them tribute, during Middle Iron Age Enchelei started to become more like a past of themselves, and Northern Illyrian Glasinac-Mat related tribes became more powerful like (Autariate, Ardiae). They were Southern Illyrian tribe, it is probably some of their spinoff group Pirusti who might have migrated more North near Lake Shkodra during Late Iron Age and you seem to completely over-turn the facts.

Now, back at Taulanti, i think from the few material i have read, they were native people of Dyrrachium and nearby, Greek colonizers encountered them there. It's something i don't understand, why the Illyrian tribes didn't conquer these colonizers, but probably they were paying them heavy tributes for protection and leaving them alone.

There were more Illyrian tribes bordering Epirotans down there. And yes, i am of the opinion that Epirotans were not Illyrian, nowhere in classical records anyone writes that, it's likely that Epirotans were some specific group of people, not related to Illyrians or Greeks but who latter became heavily influenced by Hellenic culture and were assimilated into this culture.

No doubt there were Greek cities in coastal Albania, but Illyrians, or cultures related to Illyrians based on material culture (the specific tumuli burial rite of Illyrian variety) scratched down to South Albania and North Epirus. It's how deep south their cultural influences scratched and probably even the language itself. Whether you like it or not.
Appian Illyrian Wars:
THE Greeks call those people Illyrians who occupy the region beyond Macedonia and Thrace from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the river Ister (Danube). This is the length of the country. Its breadth is from Macedonia and the mountains of Thrace to Pannonia and the Adriatic and the foot-hills of the Alps. Its breadth is five days' journey and its length thirty -- so the Greek writers say. The Romans measured the country and found its length to be upward of 6000 stades and its width about 1200.

How do you interpret this quote? To me it seems that he considers Chaonia and Thesprotia as Illyrian otherwise he would have said beyond Epirus or just beyond Chaonia as Thesprots are even more to the south.
 
Scientific papers from both genetics and archeology should be quoted not Wikipedia.

albania.png


Albanians don't come "from different populations". They come from a single population which more or less lived in the Albanian region since at least the LBA and had one autosomal profile. Albanian E-V13 can't come from a population which had a different autosomal profile. It may be in other sites in Albania or Dardania or Montenegro or the Illyrian part of Macedonia, but it can't be in Iron Age or even Roman Bulgaria which has a totally foreign profile to Albanians.
 
Epirus was likely J2a with a R1b minority, kind of like Macedonia. In rrenjet, many more samples have been added from Himara. The Greek speaking villages (Palase, Dhermi, Himare) are strongly represented by J2a, the most common haplogroup, while the Albanian speaking villages have Albanian haplogroups. J2a is also present in a weaker ratio in the Lumi Vlores region, suggesting it once had a wider distribution before the Albanians and Slavs expanded.

Himara and the surrounding region is interesting because it is mountainous, likely not settled by Syrians and other Levant people in Roman times. It also has a refuge set up, where natives from further inland would flee from the Slavs and other incursions. J2a likely represents the main haplgroup of the ancient Epirots, at least the Chanoes subgroup.

7zxfX2O.png
 
Tribal names under Roman rule.

mocsy-pg64.png


Basically east of Prishtina is a Thracian sphere. Dreaming of E-V13 in Nish, south Serbia or Macedonia, you're basically conceding to a Daco-Thracian origin without saying it outright. And between these two main spheres(Illyrian and Thracian) is a third linguistic group, the R1b-Z1203 IE group that's neither Thracian or Illyrian. The Dardanian substrate and the Paeonians.
 
Modern Albanians stem from more than one ancient Balkan group. The Illyrian case is clear cut: Proto-Illyrian EBA (and onwards) Cetina/Dinaric and their successors IA Illyrians, E1b-V13 cannot be associated with their core in any way. If the IA Thracian samples are in majority E1b-V13 then that is what the scientific data suggests, there is no need for putting the label Illyrian on Paeonian IA N. Macedonian or other ancient Balkan samples. Neither genetics nor archeology supports such a false claim. Dardania in IA is the meeting place of three cultural complexes, namely Glasinac-Mati to the West, Brnjica all over and Channeled Ware. This will clearly also reflect in aDNA records of the area.

Scientific papers from both genetics and archeology should be quoted not Wikipedia.

I do quote scientific papers from genetics and according to Lazaridis Albanians aren't neccessarily much changed . According to Malcolm Albanian language could of never come from Thracian which I already quoted. According to Katicic Dardania was mostly Illyrian with Illyrian names. The cultures you are talking about are pre-historical populations. According to Wilkes, Kosovo was mostly Glasinac-Mati. Archaeology supports Albanians derive largely from the Glasinac-Mati culture. We have Coon's 10 year old study on Albanian population but I guess it does not matter much to people because it was written in the 1920's-30's but that does not make it less faulty. Although he did notice some Thracian and Roman tools used most of it was Glasinac-Mati.

Albanians being a mix of different Balkan groups is completely irrelevant , we are talking about Proto-Albanians, not the genetic make up of modern Albanians today of various groups. Nothing supports Proto-Albanians were some kind of hybrid tribe nor have I seen evidence of hybrid tribes. Although the claim about some kind of ''Thrako-Illyrian'' common sprachbund is up for debate.

A migration from Bulgaria is very unlikely. Bessi cannot be identified with Albanians etc.

Most Samples found in North Macedonia are not like samples found in Bulgaria


EV-13 and it's ancestor has already been found in Western Balkans. And I am sure as samples increase we will find more. It's not like we have thousands of samples. We can talk when they have dug up 10,000 graves.
 
There is a Greek of J2b(likely Gheg) decent that has studied Albanian and Macedonian(Slavic) and analyzes early Ottoman census data. In one one of his topics about some possible early Cuman mixtures among medieval Albanians, a Macedonian was trying to argue the name Gjon may not always be Albanian because Gono was common in eastern Macedonia in early Ottoman census data.

I will add two observations. There is a village Sarakino in the Polog region of Macedonia,’inhabited by Macedonians but with influx of settlers from the north of Albania in the 18th cent. There is also a family name Sarakinov/Saraginov/ski. Saints Cyril and Methodius went on a mission among the Saracens - possibly in Syria, so who knows where and when the connection between the Saracens and inhabitants of the southern Balkans may have been made.

The name Gon that you are referring to may not be misspelled version of Gjon at all. I have seen it in many villages in Macedonia in the tax books, especially in the eastern half of the country, in the form Gono. There is a Macedonian last name Gonov/Gonev and a folk song “Ludi more Gono”. I wonder whether this name derives from the ancient Antigon, but shortened according to the local tradition of truncating given names that are longer.



https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1056798604907849&set=ecnf.100017331577203

I'd argue the opposite, this is more proof that this area including westernmost Bulgaria and south-eastern Serbia was once the early Albanian homeland, and a small substrate of early Albanians remained in the original homeland and was gradually absorbed.
 
Last edited:
There is a Greek of J2b(likely Gheg) decent that has studied Albanian and Macedonian(Slavic) and analyzes early Ottoman census data. In one one of his topics about some possible early Cuman mixtures among medieval Albanians, a Macedonian was trying to argue the name Gjon may not always be Albanian because Gono was common in eastern Macedonia in early Ottoman census data.



I'd argue the opposite, this is more proof that this area including westernmost Bulgaria and south-eastern Serbia was once the early Albanian homeland, and a small substrate of early Albanians remained in the original homeland and was gradually absorbed.

Evidence for your claim?
 

This thread has been viewed 609704 times.

Back
Top