Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[torzio]

The Greek admixture is eating the Thracian one you used in one model. And around ~27% Mycenaean admixture could mean around 35% Thracian.
Try using averages instead of using just one (of the most distant samples). And Slavic admixture is essential, but you wont use it in the first model probably you get higher Thracian.

Roman Dalmatia has Eastern Mediterranean admixture and is closer to Thracians than to Mainstream Illyrians. In Roman Dalmatia you very high Anatolian and/or Levantine which is not historically plausible.

The Romans relocated some "problem tribes " all around their empire, splitting them ...............you should find thracian and illyrian people also in spain, france and england

 

[torzio]

checking a new article on Paleo-euro language ( less than 6 months old )



nothing on the albanian region yet.......but the Rhaetic mentioned as not being a part of Etruscan as it is a older line

 

[Excine]

The Greek admixture is eating the Thracian one you used in one model. And around ~27% Mycenaean admixture could mean around 35% Thracian.
Try using averages instead of using just one (of the most distant samples). And Slavic admixture is essential, but you wont use it in the first model probably you get higher Thracian.

Roman Dalmatia has Eastern Mediterranean admixture and is closer to Thracians than to Mainstream Illyrians. In Roman Dalmatia sample you get very high Anatolian and/or Levantine which is not historically plausible for Albanians.

No, there is no "Greek admixture which is eating up Thracian". In this case, "GRC_Nestor's palace" is a proxy for Imperial Roman East Med and so is BGR_Andreevo to a great extent. If you just add a proper Anatolian source the fit improves a lot and it doesn't pick at all any BGR.

Target: AlbanianMirditë
Distance: 1.2008% / 0.01200799
57.4 ALBÇinamak_Anc
19.0 TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Camandras_Dalagöz_Rom
15.8 MNE_LBA
6.6 SVN_EIA
1.2 KAZ_Hun-Sarmatian

I removed Çinamak from the model entirely and replaced it with MNE_LBA. Still, the model wouldn't pick any BGR sources:

Target: Albanian_Mirditë
Distance: 1.4347% / 0.01434672
62.2 MNE_LBA
22.8 TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Camandras_Dalagöz_Rom
14.2 SVN_EIA
0.8 KAZ_Hun-Sarmatian

The high Anatolian doesn't exist in reality because this is simply overfitting caused by G25, but the point to understand from all of these tests is that BGR sources are irrelevant for Albanians, unlike Çinamak-like ones.

In fact, we don't even need an admixture model because there are Albanians who are identical from Çinamak to post-medieval Albania and you'll notice this by comparing basic components:


To end this mini "debate", this is the scientific conclusion:

It is fully replicated with formal methods and even with G25's limitations you can see why that is so. There's no reason for you to continue this argument because Matzinger himself has repeatedly in all possible ways distanced Albanians from Thrace, so no reason for you try to prove a point which doesn't even exist in anyone's theory.

 

[blevins13]

checking a new article on Paleo-euro language ( less than 6 months old )



nothing on the albanian region yet.......but the Rhaetic mentioned as not being a part of Etruscan as it is a older line

I thought proto-Greek were in Epirus, now it seems that they are all over Albania. How cool is that. It seems that the real Greeks are still in Albanian only the translators went to Mycenae. Hahahaha.


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[torzio]

In September alone, we had a major linguistic book putting Albanian under Illyrian, and a major genetic paper saying Albanians come from Illyrian stock.

But some of these deranged posters are accusing us of "nationalism" and "bias" while the authors of the paper are all western academics

let us hope they name these tribes individually instead of just illyrian ............In Italy, they name etruscan, ligurian , umbrian, Samnites etc etc...not just as italian tribes in ancient history ..........naming it just illyrian solves nothing

 

[Excine]

Also, don't post stuff like this statement: "Roman Dalmatia has Eastern Mediterranean admixture and is closer to Thracians than to Mainstream Illyrians." If you took 3 minutes to check if this makes sense you would know that it's utterly wrong. PCA with averages from IA Bulgaria, IA Albania, Roman Dalmatia:

You really have to check the basic components of IA Bulgaria to understand how different it is to anything Illyrian- or Albanian-related

 

[ihype02]

No, there is no "Greek admixture which is eating up Thracian". In this case, "GRC_Nestor's palace" is a proxy for Imperial Roman East Med and so is BGR_Andreevo to a great extent. If you just add a proper Anatolian source the fit improves a lot and it doesn't pick at all any BGR.

Target: AlbanianMirditë
Distance: 1.2008% / 0.01200799
57.4 ALBÇinamak_Anc
19.0 TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Camandras_Dalagöz_Rom
15.8 MNE_LBA
6.6 SVN_EIA
1.2 KAZ_Hun-Sarmatian

I removed Çinamak from the model entirely and replaced it with MNE_LBA. Still, the model wouldn't pick any BGR sources:

Target: Albanian_Mirditë
Distance: 1.4347% / 0.01434672
62.2 MNE_LBA
22.8 TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Camandras_Dalagöz_Rom
14.2 SVN_EIA
0.8 KAZ_Hun-Sarmatian

The high Anatolian doesn't exist in reality because this is simply overfitting caused by G25, but the point to understand from all of these tests is that BGR sources are irrelevant for Albanians, unlike Çinamak-like ones.

In fact, we don't even need an admixture model because there are Albanians who are identical from Çinamak to post-medieval Albania and you'll notice this by comparing basic components:


To end this mini "debate", this is the scientific conclusion:

It is fully replicated with formal methods and even with G25's limitations you can see why that is so. There's no reason for you to continue this argument because Matzinger himself has repeatedly in all possible ways distanced Albanians from Thrace, so no reason for you try to prove a point which doesn't even exist in anyone's theory.

It is overfitting because you need something more southern to model Albanians therefore it is picking up Anatolian admixture. We both know that 20% Anatolian is not historically plausible, and neither is there high J2a or J1 in Albanians. On the other there is high E-V13 which does not show up very often among Illyrians.

1.) Your model does show up any Slavic admixture. Slavic toponyms in Albania did not sprung out of nowhere.
2.) Using Thracians Mirditores still come up as 50% Illyrian which is not that far away from 62% (Slovenia was Celtic BTW.) What about using OTHER Albanians how do they fit in your model?

 

[broder]

Probably now is only V13 assimilating R1b and L283. Looks very remote as a scenario.


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Problem is that already by late antiquity we see in sites like Timacum Minus that the V13+L283+CTS1450 soup was already in existence as east as Nish. That’s actually super close to when Z2705 started expanding, just a hundred years earlier perhaps. FTDNA is estimating now the age of the expansion of PH970 (aka Z2705) as 1850ybp. Seems like they are honing in on that underestimation of yfull, which is around 20% I think.

Anyway, for V13 alone to have caused such a phenomenon, assimilating the remaining Illyrian communities in Albania and introducing the language, we would expect to see some major V13 subclade that was in the nucleus of our ethnos mirroring at least to some extent Z2705 - which can be found in any Albanian region and among all Albanian groups.

What come close are BY4461, Y173822 and Y146086 . Non are as uniform though. Other V13 are supper patchy and regional. Same thing for L283 subclades.

 

[ihype02]

Epirus was likely J2a with a R1b minority, kind of like Macedonia. In rrenjet, many more samples have been added from Himara. The Greek speaking villages (Palase, Dhermi, Himare) are strongly represented by J2a, the most common haplogroup, while the Albanian speaking villages have Albanian haplogroups. J2a is also present in a weaker ratio in the Lumi Vlores region, suggesting it once had a wider distribution before the Albanians and Slavs expanded.

Himara and the surrounding region is interesting because it is mountainous, likely not settled by Syrians and other Levant people in Roman times. It also has a refuge set up, where natives from further inland would flee from the Slavs and other incursions. J2a likely represents the main haplgroup of the ancient Epirots, at least the Chanoes subgroup.

Probably founder effect.

 

[enter_tain]

You know what's funny? All these anti-Albanian/Illyrian people can't decide for the life of them on 1 theory. First it's Dacian. Then it's Thracian. Then it's some random unnamed tribe in the middle of the Roman Empire no one noticed. Then according to the Austrians it's Proto-Messapic/Albanian which is not Illyrian, but it assimilated Illyrians and Greeks called them that.

It's just a cesspool of random bullshit, to the point where those Austrians are arguing the Illyrians in Albania aren't actually Illyrian, when the name Illyria was literally meant for them.

This is beyond archeology/history. It's something psychological. The Albanian ethos comes from the Albanoi in northern Illyria and it's obvious as ****, but these theories get more and more ridiculous by the year. You have people like Johan Derite making up new theories every week that contradict himself, or PalleKarievenge saying Albanians came in 900 AD, when Geg/Tosk split happened in 400-500 AD. I truly don't know what's going on inside their heads, but it has become quite honestly pathetic.

 

[epirus1000]

Did you just use 3 sources?<br>
<br>
I can replicate the same result with the same distance by including more sources and see what happens:<br>
<br>
<br>
Target: AlbanianMirditë<br>
Distance: 1.7577% / 0.01757701 | R5P<br>
59.8 ALBÇinamak_Anc<br>
16.6 MNE_LBA<br>
13.4 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA<br>
8.6 GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA<br>
1.6 KAZ_Hun-Sarmatian<br>
<br>
Target: Albanian_Himarë<br>
Distance: 2.2725% / 0.02272510 | R5P<br>
31.0 HRVIA<br>
29.8 ALBÇinamak_Anc<br>
27.6 GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA<br>
9.8 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA<br>
1.8 KAZ_Hun-Sarmatian<br>
<br>
Also, why are you using BGR_IA and not BGR_Kapitan_Andreevo which is the actual average for southeast Thrace? BGR_IA doesn't even have ancestry identical to the E-V13 from Thrace.<br>
<br>
Target: BGR_IA<br>
Distance: 2.1882% / 0.02188231 | R5P<br>
76.0 BGR_KapitanAndreevoIA<br>
24.0 ALBÇinamak_Anc<br>
<br>
Come on man, you can do better than that. Still, my point here is proven: Kapitan Andreevo won't be picked by Albanians as a main source.<br>
<br>
Anyway, you shouldn't use sources which are older than the immediately preceding period to model Albanians. You should just see for what we're discussing if Albanians have ancestry from late Roman/early medieval Albania or Bulgaria or Anatolia or wherever or combine IA+Roman/early medieval samples from each area and see which sources Albanians pick up:<br>
<br>
They definitely don't pick Bulgaria. Dalmatia might have been replaced by Dardania if we had sources from that area, but the main point is that Albania-Dalmatia-Dardania were probably very similar.<br>

PS I didn't even use a Slavic source in the model and I got the same fit as when you used a Slavic source. This is how low Slavic admixture is in Albanians that we don't even need to add one.

Why don't we have a MATI representation? Mati is probably one of the areas that can be better related with Ancient Macedonians. All those collection of stories and tales by Rrok Zojzi in Northern Alps that still mention Aleksander the Great in our folklore.

 

[Johane Derite]

Why don't we have a MATI representation? Mati is probably one of the areas that can be better related with Ancient Macedonians. All those collection of stories and tales by Rrok Zojzi in Northern Alps that still mention Aleksander the Great in our folklore.

Could you guide me to where Rrok Zojzi collected mentions of Alexander the Great in our folklore?

 

[enter_tain]

I read the Austrian presentations in more detail, and these people are explicitly disagreeing with one another lol. One says Albanians came in 9th century BCE, the others in 5th century AD. They're outright disagreeing with one other, while quoting each other at the same time. What a dumpster fire.

It's obvious the Illyrian-Messapic-Albanian connection has them in a logic triangle chokehold, and the only way out is putting their heads up their asses.

Linguistic research should focus on the relationship between Messapic and Albanian, because if these two languages are related as assumed, it's all but proven that Albanians linguistically descend from Illyrian (the genetic debate is all but laid to rest with the last paper). We'll probably never find written Illyrian, but Messapic clearly descends from Illyrians and can be used a proxy.

 

[epirus1000]

Could you guide me to where Rrok Zojzi collected mentions of Alexander the Great in our folklore?

I have to get back to everything I read lately, in order to find the references. There were quite long stories told by elders of Theth in 1940-1950, mentioning Alexander the Great as LECI.

 

[Dorian9]

Also don't forget the traditions of the ArberPelazgIllirAlbanoMaqedoniSumerDaunoMessapoGalabroDardanoPaeonEpirEgyptoTrojan+ Afghans https ://www .ocnal.com/2016/06/the-albanians-of-afghanistan-2300-years.html

 

[Pashai Janinës]

Si keni qenë o burra? A u lodhur ndopak? Mirë, jo keq, 126 faqe.

 

[Pashai Janinës]

You know what's funny? All these anti-Albanian/Illyrian people can't decide for the life of them on 1 theory. First it's Dacian. Then it's Thracian. Then it's some random unnamed tribe in the middle of the Roman Empire no one noticed. Then according to the Austrians it's Proto-Messapic/Albanian which is not Illyrian, but it assimilated Illyrians and Greeks called them that.

It's just a cesspool of random bullshit, to the point where those Austrians are arguing the Illyrians in Albania aren't actually Illyrian, when the name Illyria was literally meant for them.

This is beyond archeology/history. It's something psychological. The Albanian ethos comes from the Albanoi in northern Illyria and it's obvious as ****, but these theories get more and more ridiculous by the year. You have people like Johan Derite making up new theories every week that contradict himself, or PalleKarievenge saying Albanians came in 900 AD, when Geg/Tosk split happened in 400-500 AD. I truly don't know what's going on inside their heads, but it has become quite honestly pathetic.

Mos u mërzit! Si të në në Shqipëri ashtu edhe në Kosovë ka minoranca etnike apo kulturore si jevgj apo ashkali, serbë, grekë, etj. Dihet se çfarë ata do thonë po ti mos i merr seriozisht, më qetësi dhe dashuri.

 

[blevins13]

Mos u mërzit! Si të në në Shqipëri ashtu edhe në Kosovë ka minoranca etnike apo kulturore si jevgu apo ashkali, serbë grekë, etj. Dihet se çfarë ata do thonë po ti mos i merr seriozisht, më qetësi dhe dashuri.

Qeke nga Skrapari me duket. Hahaha.


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[Pashai Janinës]

Also don't forget the traditions of the ArberPelazgIllirAlbanoMaqedoniSumerDaunoMessapoGalabroDardanoPaeonEpirEgyptoTrojan+ Afghans https ://www .ocnal.com/2016/06/the-albanians-of-afghanistan-2300-years.html

This is how you spend the money of the German taxpayers.
https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/1037/life-goes-on-as-before-for-the-greeks-of-pakistan/
Or even building a monument for the horse of Alexander the Great. lol
http://pakgeotagging.blogspot.com/2014/05/monument-of-bucephalus-horse-of.html

 

[Pashai Janinës]

Qeke nga Skrapari me duket. Hahaha.


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Jo vlla, jam nga ai çik vënd.