Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[dubsteroaks]

The E-V13 samples we have so far aren't only South-Thracian but some plot somewhere between South-Thracians and Illyrians which matches Albanian autosomal DNA better rather than just Illyrian or Thracian.

From Matzinger:

The (older) opinion that serbokroat. Nîš comes from the Albanian language, was wrongly rejected from G. SCHRAMM, Conqueror, p. 308 m.E.. (20) If one assumes * / Na.ís (s) os / (21) as the starting form for the development, the following processes would have resulted: * / Nə.íʃə (h) /> * / Nə. íʃə /> * / Nṑʃ (ə) / (22)> * / Nṑʃ /, which could be the source of the Slavic borrowing. It follows from this that the development of the ancient name form to the source form from which the Slavic name form is borrowed is definitely and only comparable to Albanian phonetic developments.

As a conclusion to the Thracian-Bessian hypothesis, it emerges from a linguistic point of view that it should be rejected, since only very little material is available for language comparison, (28) but at the same time this language indicates a very different sound development from Albanian, which does not so unites to the Albanian.

(28) NB .: It should always be noted for a well-founded language comparison with regard to the question of kinship relationships between languages that purely lexical comparisons are ultimately only of limited meaningfulness. In order to be able to correctly assess relationships, one needs the evidence of GRAMMAR, which is missing in the case of the Illyrian (see above) as well as the Thracian.

§3) "Third way"?

From a linguistic point of view, is a direct connection - i.e. linear descent - the Albanian with the ‘Illyrian’ not feasible (see the comments on the ON Scodra in §1)). A connection of the Albanian with the ‘Thracian’ on the other hand is unprovable on the Thracian side due to the marginal evidence, but can also be excluded due to internal language evidence (see §2 above). From this it follows that Albanian, since it cannot be Illyrian or Thracian, is the continuation of an old Balkan language that is independent of these two. The following aspects are to be considered in this assumption, or to be worked out in detail in the future:

- Albanian not only has special old (!) Lexical similarities with some other id. Languages (e.g. Armenian, Greek and Phrygian), but also special grammatical matches. In Indo-European studies, there has been a view since the end of the 1980s that a special subgroup has to be set up, which is called Balkan Indo-European. Despite some preliminary work, intensive research is still required in this area.

-The extent to which the other well-known antique Balkan languages Illyrian and Thracian can also be connected must first be examined, especially after a thorough re-examination of the onomastic material.

- Albanian shows a few similarities with the Messapic, which is also a language of the old Balkan region, which was brought to Lower Italy only secondarily.

- It is quite likely that in the ancient Balkans several, sometimes also different id. languages were native; the relationship between these is difficult to determine due to the lack of material, but a thorough re-examination of the onomastic material could result in new aspects.

- Since Albanian cannot be assigned to Thracian in the east or Illyrian on the Adriatic coast in the west of the Balkan Peninsula, only the inner Balkan region remains as an area in which the basic development of the Albanian language has taken place. How extensive this territory was, in which the proto Albanians had their living space, remains open, especially in view of mobile life forms. If it is true that some toponyms of the inner Balkans show traces in their development, whichare to be contected with the - and only the Albanian, so there would be an indication of an earlier presence of Albanophones in this area.

- On the basis of the chronologies of the sound developments occurring at the place name Scodra> albanian Shkodër, it can be considered likely that the name became known to the proto Albanians only at the turn of the times. However, this does not automatically mean that the albanophones have already been there, the name may have reached them as an exonym. Taking into account the chronology of the Alban. Sound developments at place mame Dúrrës can only be combined with Romanesque sounds of the source form: / Dúrrat s o- / with affection of the connection / -k - / * </ Dúrrako- / (Greek / Latin Dyrrhachium) - in detail J. MATZINGER, Illyrer (see above) and critical short comments, p. 93f. - then, linguistically speaking, this speaks for a late antique spread of the proto Albanians into their current residences. It would be assumed that the starting point would be the region of northern Albania in which the proto Albanians first settled (here the existing local ethnonym / alban - / **, see J. MATZINGER, Illyrer (as above) and from where the albanian Language area spread to the south. ***

In late antiquity, Albanian ethnogenesis probably took place in the documented settlement area( late antique provinces of Moesia superior, Dacia ripensis, Dacia mediterranea and Dardania), or an ethnic Albanian consciousness of the Albanians developed, whereby in the center of this process the tribal term Ἄλβανοι played a role, whereby it must remain open how exactly this is to be understood. In my opinion, Albanian ethnogensis should to be the result of an ethnic awareness of a Christian pastoral community based on small animal husbandry, which arose in confrontation with the originally non-Christian, agricultural, Slavs who spoke a foreign idiom; see. also considerations in MATZINGER, Illyrer, p. 31.

 

[dubsteroaks]

You keep repeating nonsense. Modern linguists such as Matzinger dont suport that Proto-Albanians were in whats now Albania, however they support the fact that they migrated there, thats how these toponyms such as Mat appeared. Shkodra, Sharr and other toponyms in Albania dont follow Albanian phonetic evolution, that was said by Matzinger himself. About the Bessi theory, you seem to ignore the argumentation made by Radu Craciun but do whatever you want, I wont force you to read it. The location of toponyms that show Albanian phonetic evolution is intercalated with the location of Bessi, everyone can see that very well. The Thracian element in Eastern Dardania could be explained by the Bessi as there were 3 settlements located there, where these people lived: Scupi, Besiana and Besaiana.

If you had read my post nowhere did I say Albanian placenames in Albania follow Albanian phonetic evolution (Which is something that is rather open for debate and objective as some arguments have been brought up by other posters how many of these placenames show the same developments Lissos and Nish show same developments as for Scupi there is no difference in how it developed compared to toponyms in Albania or Sharr or Shkodra, the arguments are mainly for Nish and Shtip and not Scupi. The toponyms in Albania follow Albanian continuity from the Latin or Roman era just like Scupi. The argument is mainly that had it been there in pre-Roman period it should of developed different but counter arguments for that have been brought up by Cabej and others). I merely specified that Albanian is believed to of been in the West-Central Balkans in Late Antiquity if you read the wiki section on proto-Albanian and which is accepted by most scholars which entirely debunks the whole Bessi theory and something which is rejected by most scholars. So the Bessi migrated from Bulgaria to Dardania and then they ended up in Albania where they got the toponym Mat and by Late Antiquity they were present in the West-Central Balkans ? Come on .......

No, the Thracian element in Dardania cannot be explained by the Bessi. They were a tribe that lived in Western Bulgaria and which is rejected by most scholars. You basically just take what fits your agenda, you use some arguments from Matzinger but reject others.

Scupi did not only have Thracians but also Dardanians and Illyrians, same for Nish and many of these areas. A tribe such as the Bessi did not replace the people there nor in Albania. The name Dardania was used until Late antiquity in Dardania itself , even Albanoi inscriptions and Dardanian inscriptions have been found there.

 

[dubsteroaks]

The guy you're quoting is a Romanian btw and none of his arguments are convincing and have been addressed. And claiming that I supposedly repeat nonsense just because it does not suit your own agenda..... I mean anyone who doesn't have the brain of a squirrel obviously knows that Lissos > Lesh in Albania and Naissos > Nish and Astibos > Shtip.... show the same developments. Even Drivastum > Drisht in Albania did not develop much different. Scupi developed no different from Shkodra, Sharr, Drisht, Ulqin or any other toponym.... Mat is an old toponym which definitely does not fit with any kind of Bessi. You're saying the Bessi by Late Antiquiy took over the West-Central Balkans ? Not sure why this guy is giving you thumbs up but there is literally no difference in how many of these placenames developed .... Most of the placenames do not fit with any kind of Bessi. They fit with Illyrians or Thrako-Illyrians in Late Antiquity which is why the main lineages in Albanians are from Illyrians + some Thracian or Thrako-Illyrian E-V13.

 

[Dahoi]

The E-V13 samples we have so far aren't only South-Thracian but some plot somewhere between South-Thracians and Illyrians which matches Albanian autosomal DNA better rather than just Illyrian or Thracian.

From Matzinger:

The (older) opinion that serbokroat. Nîš comes from the Albanian language, was wrongly rejected from G. SCHRAMM, Conqueror, p. 308 m.E.. (20) If one assumes * / Na.ís (s) os / (21) as the starting form for the development, the following processes would have resulted: * / Nə.íʃə (h) /> * / Nə. íʃə /> * / Nṑʃ (ə) / (22)> * / Nṑʃ /, which could be the source of the Slavic borrowing. It follows from this that the development of the ancient name form to the source form from which the Slavic name form is borrowed is definitely and only comparable to Albanian phonetic developments.

As a conclusion to the Thracian-Bessian hypothesis, it emerges from a linguistic point of view that it should be rejected, since only very little material is available for language comparison, (28) but at the same time this language indicates a very different sound development from Albanian, which does not so unites to the Albanian.

(28) NB .: It should always be noted for a well-founded language comparison with regard to the question of kinship relationships between languages that purely lexical comparisons are ultimately only of limited meaningfulness. In order to be able to correctly assess relationships, one needs the evidence of GRAMMAR, which is missing in the case of the Illyrian (see above) as well as the Thracian.

§3) "Third way"?

From a linguistic point of view, is a direct connection - i.e. linear descent - the Albanian with the ‘Illyrian’ not feasible (see the comments on the ON Scodra in §1)). A connection of the Albanian with the ‘Thracian’ on the other hand is unprovable on the Thracian side due to the marginal evidence, but can also be excluded due to internal language evidence (see §2 above). From this it follows that Albanian, since it cannot be Illyrian or Thracian, is the continuation of an old Balkan language that is independent of these two. The following aspects are to be considered in this assumption, or to be worked out in detail in the future:

- Albanian not only has special old (!) Lexical similarities with some other id. Languages (e.g. Armenian, Greek and Phrygian), but also special grammatical matches. In Indo-European studies, there has been a view since the end of the 1980s that a special subgroup has to be set up, which is called Balkan Indo-European. Despite some preliminary work, intensive research is still required in this area.

-The extent to which the other well-known antique Balkan languages Illyrian and Thracian can also be connected must first be examined, especially after a thorough re-examination of the onomastic material.

- Albanian shows a few similarities with the Messapic, which is also a language of the old Balkan region, which was brought to Lower Italy only secondarily.

- It is quite likely that in the ancient Balkans several, sometimes also different id. languages were native; the relationship between these is difficult to determine due to the lack of material, but a thorough re-examination of the onomastic material could result in new aspects.

- Since Albanian cannot be assigned to Thracian in the east or Illyrian on the Adriatic coast in the west of the Balkan Peninsula, only the inner Balkan region remains as an area in which the basic development of the Albanian language has taken place. How extensive this territory was, in which the proto Albanians had their living space, remains open, especially in view of mobile life forms. If it is true that some toponyms of the inner Balkans show traces in their development, whichare to be contected with the - and only the Albanian, so there would be an indication of an earlier presence of Albanophones in this area.

- On the basis of the chronologies of the sound developments occurring at the place name Scodra> albanian Shkodër, it can be considered likely that the name became known to the proto Albanians only at the turn of the times. However, this does not automatically mean that the albanophones have already been there, the name may have reached them as an exonym. Taking into account the chronology of the Alban. Sound developments at place mame Dúrrës can only be combined with Romanesque sounds of the source form: / Dúrrat s o- / with affection of the connection / -k - / * </ Dúrrako- / (Greek / Latin Dyrrhachium) - in detail J. MATZINGER, Illyrer (see above) and critical short comments, p. 93f. - then, linguistically speaking, this speaks for a late antique spread of the proto Albanians into their current residences. It would be assumed that the starting point would be the region of northern Albania in which the proto Albanians first settled (here the existing local ethnonym / alban - / **, see J. MATZINGER, Illyrer (as above) and from where the albanian Language area spread to the south. ***

In late antiquity, Albanian ethnogenesis probably took place in the documented settlement area( late antique provinces of Moesia superior, Dacia ripensis, Dacia mediterranea and Dardania), or an ethnic Albanian consciousness of the Albanians developed, whereby in the center of this process the tribal term Ἄλβανοι played a role, whereby it must remain open how exactly this is to be understood. In my opinion, Albanian ethnogensis should to be the result of an ethnic awareness of a Christian pastoral community based on small animal husbandry, which arose in confrontation with the originally non-Christian, agricultural, Slavs who spoke a foreign idiom; see. also considerations in MATZINGER, Illyrer, p. 31.

The Ev13 samples that were modeled as 50 Thracian and 50 Illyrian dont have a good score at all and many people have criticised the way how those samples were modeled. Those samples would rather represent the native Daco-Mysian population of that region, thats why those are different to the Thracian Ev13, which are way more southern due to Greco-Anatolian dna that was absorbed by them. Here is what Radu Craciun said about Matzinger's argument for Daco-Thracian not matching Albanian phonetic evolution : "Two toponyms often mentioned in this context are Naissus (Niš) and Astibos (Shtip), both geographically located in the Thracian-Illyrian contact zone, an area dominated by the Thracian element. Noteworthy is the transition from Astibos to Shtip, which exhibits three phonetic changes typical of Albanian:

the loss of the unstressed initial a-,
the shift of the consonant cluster -st- to -sht-,
and the devoicing of the labial b to p.

It must be emphasized here that the transition from b to p is also reflected in the Thracian terms of the Paeonian and Western Thracian regions, as in the case of the anthroponym Parisades from Berisades and in the case of the plant name in the Bessi language mentioned as dinupula (sinupula), compared to the Dacian variant kinuboila – "stërkungull" (pumpkin) in Albanian.

This Bessi gloss seems to have escaped Matzinger, who states:

“What complicates the connection between Albanian and Bessi is the fact that: (a) ‘Thracian’ is attested only to a small extent and Bessi in particular is entirely unknown, and especially (b) the individual phonetic evolution of Albanian and Thracian presents distinct reflexes, which cannot be considered the result of a single language!”

The difference between the Bessi (Thracian) and Dacian dialectal variants, both originating from IE *k̑un-abolo- “dog-apple,” proves that there can be considerable deviations in the transcription of glosses. Thus, the Dacian variant, transcribed with the velar (guttural) initial k-, followed by a front vowel, must have actually had a palatal (palatalized) pronunciation, close to an affricate consonant (*ts / *tz), as indicated by the Bessi variants, transcribed alternatively as d- or s-.

This “reverse” transcription, contrary to the expected evolution of a satem-type language, has also been noted by Georgiev, who observes that the Dacian toponym Germisera is also transcribed in the variant Germigera, indicating that a Latin consonant g, followed by the vowels e or i, is actually pronounced as (d)z or (d)zh.

The later variant, Zermizerga, attests to the specific phonetic evolution of the Albanian language, with the transitions *gʷhe- > *dze- > zja- and s- > z- > gj-. Georgiev’s observations relativize the value of the argument presented by Matzinger, who, based on the Thracian gloss genton “piece of meat,” from IE *gʷhend- “strike, kill,” and the toponyms Germania, Germi-sara, from IE *gʷhermo- “warm,” rules out the origin of Albanian from Thracian languages.

The Bessi gloss, written alternately as dinupula and sinupula, with d- and s- for *ts-, as well as the variants of the toponym Dierna, Tierna, Zerna, for the correct variant Tsierna, indicate that in Central Balkans, the affricates *ts- and *dz- were often transcribed using dentals (dental consonants) d-, t-, or, more rarely, th-.

Thus, Matzinger’s argument against the etymology for the name of the Dardania region falls, as for the palatal *g̑h-, etymologically justified, he would have expected a transcription with sibilants (fricatives) z or s.

Furthermore, the transcription with dentals of palatals, accompanied in most cases by variants with sibilants, constitutes an important indicator, a marker, for the presence of Albanian speakers!"

 

[Dahoi]

Here is an image of Bessi archeological sites during the Roman period and the sites where they were mentioned. The only reson why on wikipedia it is written that the Bessi theory is debunked it is because of Matzinger's arguments, which are wrong as Radu Craciun demonstrated.

 

[Dahoi]

The guy you're quoting is a Romanian btw and none of his arguments are convincing and have been addressed. And claiming that I supposedly repeat nonsense just because it does not suit your own agenda..... I mean anyone who doesn't have the brain of a squirrel obviously knows that Lissos > Lesh in Albania and Naissos > Nish and Astibos > Shtip.... show the same developments. Even Drivastum > Drisht in Albania did not develop much different. Scupi developed no different from Shkodra, Sharr, Drisht, Ulqin or any other toponym.... Mat is an old toponym which definitely does not fit with any kind of Bessi. You're saying the Bessi by Late Antiquiy took over the West-Central Balkans ? Not sure why this guy is giving you thumbs up but there is literally no difference in how many of these placenames developed .... Most of the placenames do not fit with any kind of Bessi. They fit with Illyrians or Thrako-Illyrians in Late Antiquity which is why the main lineages in Albanians are from Illyrians + some Thracian or Thrako-Illyrian E-V13.

What has his ethnicity to do with his work, if his arguments are wrong then tell me why are they?

 

[dubsteroaks]

Dardapara in Dardania or Dardani related to Albanian Dardhe

''Albanian typical toponyms formed with the same root as dardhë have been attested: Dardhan-i (in 1467 CE), Dardhanesh-i (1431), Dardhasi (1431), Dardas (1467), Dardhë-a (1417), Darda, Dardhicë-a (1431). Several modern toponyms are found in various parts of Albania, including Dardha in Berat, Dardha in Korça, Dardha in Librazhd, Dardha in Puka, Dardhas in Pogradec, Dardhaj in Mirdita, and Dardhës in Përmet. Dardha in Puka is recorded as Darda in a 1671 ecclesiastical report and on a 1688 map by a Venetian cartographer. Dardha is also the name of an Albanian tribe in the northern part of the District of Dibra''

J-PH4679 possibly came from the Albanoi tribe in North-Central Albania which is where the name comes from Arbanon, Arbanas, Arbanashka etc .... The E-V13 came from somewhere in Dardania or close by which explains Nish-Shtip and toponyms such as Dardha. Both Dardani or the name and Albanoi existed in Late Antiquity and the Bessi too.

 

[dubsteroaks]

Toplica-Presheva and Nish from where the Serbs expelled over 60k Albanians in 1877, and which turned Kosovo entirely into an Albanian enclave, it is obvious by the toponyms that it was originally inhabited by Albanian speakers which is where most linguists claim was the contact between Romanian-Albanian and the Torlak dialect has Albanian-Romanian influence..... like Arbanashka river, Arbanashka mountain, Arbanashka hill, Arnautski Potok, Kastrat, Arbanashka, Lusha, Shatra, Arbanashka Brenica, Brnic Arbanas, Mazarac, Gjake, Marash, Gjinofc Kulla ...... there are like many Albanian toponyms there to this day and even more that do not exist today..... Why is this not talked about more ?

 

[dubsteroaks]

 

[Fshatar]

Non-existent amount of J2B-L283 among Çam Albanians, supposedly these Illyrians are the speakers and spreaders of the Albanian language...

Yes, Chams only have 0-3% of the most in group diverse (since EBA) Y-DNA. 0% J-L283>PH4679, 0% R-PF7562>Z29758, only 3% R-Z2103>BY611>Z2705 (represented by one tested family). A people with more than 25% Slavic Y-DNA, 16% Middleastern and 9% R-L51 (painfully obvious that these are assimilated Vlachs, Bulgarians) is hardly representative of the paternal Albanian core. In comparison, the three mentioned most diverse Proto-Albanian Y DNAs are present in Arvanites.

 

[dubsteroaks]

It's easy to locate where Albanian originated. You just follow where linguists claim it was in Late Antiquity on this map (though they forgot Lipjan in Kosovo):

Proto-Albanian language - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Y-DNA are also bottleneck / founder effects and many lineages might of been lost but E-V13, J-L283 and R1b should of been present in this area in the Late Iron Age / Roman era. The proto-Albanians are a result of people that mixed in this territory in West-Central Balkans during Roman era in Albania-Montenegro (possibly even Ragusa) and Dardania-Moesia which included Thracian and Illyrian populations and Anatolian settlers. Latin speakers were proto-Albanians that shifted to Latin. That's how you get Albanian.


This is just my theory. For example in Nish we do have E-V13 too.

 

[Southpaw]

Equating everything here but turning a blind eye on E-V13. Sure they are undertested but the trends are very similar with every other Albanian region, proto-Albanians were a small group expanding it should be expected that the core proto-Albanian lineages should not have been that diverse to begin with. Holding a grip on haplogroups that are diverse yet being present in small % is insufficient.

Exactly, and if u look at Chams the common Y-DNA is E-V13, which apparently they share with Labs some subclades, bingo. It's a no-brainer actually, Arberesh have low J2b2-L283 as well because J2b2-L283 was not an omnipresent Albanian lineage, it was a lineage in Mati-Dibra who joined Proto-Albanians as did the other lineages.

 

[dubsteroaks]

''In what is now Serbia and Macedonia, several important classical placenames that Slavic took over from the resident
population were borrowed not, as one would expect, directly from Latin or Greek but from Albanian. Well-known examples
are the south Serbian town of Nish (classical Naissos), the Macedonian towns of Shtip (classical Astibos) and Ohrid
(classical Lychnid), and the mountain range Sharr (classical Scardus), which seperates Kosovo from Macedonia.
Nowadays Romanian is geographically scattered: it is spoken partly in what is now Romania and adjacent areas 'north of the
Danube' and partly in much more southerly areas, in particular in Macedonia, Albania and northern Greece. Linguistically
speaking, these scattered dialects of Romanian are very closely related and it has to be assumed that they underwent
a period of common developments at some stage in the middle ages, which in turn presupposes territorial contiguity.
For linguistic and historical reasons it is virtually excluded that Romanian arose 'north of the Danube'; it is
equally unlikely that it arose in areas as far south as present-day Greece. Consequently, the area of Albanian-Romanian coexistence has to be sought somewhere in between.

All these facts (and others) taken together suggest, first that the southern part of what is today Serbia (including Kosovo) was linguistically speaking partly Albanian and partly Romanian for a time, and, second, that at the time the Slavs reached south Serbia and Macedonia, Albanian was so important in the area that toponyms geographically as far apart as Nish and Shtip were transferred to Slavic through the intermediary of Albanian rather than directly from Latin or Greek.


However, it is likely that the spread of the Nemanja state contributed to the southward spread of Serbo-Croat, to the closing of the geographical gap between Serbo-Croat and Bulgarian-Macedonian and to the scattering of Romanian.''

- Vermeer

 

[dubsteroaks]

If it wasn't for the expulsion of Albanians from there

Expulsion of the Albanians (1877–1878) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In that area there would still be Albanians. They expelled the Albanians and settled them with Montenigrins and settlers from Bosnia. They live in villages with Albanian toponyms. Even Katun next to Nish is clearly an Albanian toponym: Katun - Mapcarta

 

[dubsteroaks]

Lezhe (Lissos) is considered to of been taken from Albanian speakers and shows the same developments as Nish and Shtip which is also considered to of been taken from Albanian speakers.

''The ancient name Lissus evolved into its modern form Lezhë (archaic: Lesh through Albanian sound changes.''

Lezhë - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You did not bring forth any arguments against that neither did Matzinger. Which makes it pretty clear the proto-Albanians were located in the West-Central Balkans, in an area between Lissos (Lezhe) and Naissos (Nish) and Shtip which explains the J-L283, R1b and E-V13 where these lineages clearly mixed in these areas, they are also founder effects or bottle necks but that's how you get Albanian. Tosk is considered to of been in contact with Romanian too.

 

[dubsteroaks]

I actually completely changed my mind now. I definitely do think it's Illyrian, with some Thracian influence maybe, which is why the main lineages are from Illyrian and Messapic is related to Albanian. The placenames in Albania do show Albanian developments and are considered by many linguists to do so. You're just cherrypicking the linguists such as Matzinger but his arguments have been debunked. Even Scodra > Shkoder follows continuity from the Latin name. Nish, Shtip, Shkupi, Lipjan are names known from the Latin too. There is no difference in how these placenames developed. They are just pre-Slavic names. The bulk of them survived the most in what is today Albania-Montenegro and a few in South-Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia. Because unlike in the plains, in the mountains the Slavic invaders were eventually fought off and absorbed into the pre-Slavic population. Even the Serbs and Bulgars and Byzantines were eventually defeated in Albania. The Serbs were defeated by the Muzaka. In the plains the opposite occurred for a long time. Mat is considered one of the oldest toponyms. Lissos >Lezhe, Drinus > Drin, Isamnus > Ishem , Buena, Sharr , Ohrid , Ulqin, Prizren, Shkupi, Lipjan ..... There is no difference how these placenames developed. They were inhabited by a proto-Albanian population, not just the mountains but even the plains, along side Slavs, had a medieval Albanian population such as Prizren, Nish, Ohrid and Shkupi as the entire medieval Albanian population )which is how these names were preserved) was not in the mountains, however the bulk might of been there which is how the Slavic invaders there were fought off. The Sharr mountains must of had a medieval Albanian population. Nish in Southern Serbia simply represents the eastern most expansion of proto-Albanian. It's the only toponym there that shows Albanian development. So the proto-Albanians were in the West-Central Balkans (J-L283, R1b + E-V13) is how you get it with some medieval founder effects. For a long time even Prizren and Shkupi (Skopje) were considered as part of Albania though they were never ruled by Albanians.


The Daco-Thracian theory is cooked and rejected by most scholars. Have a nice day.

 

[Johane Derite]

Some of the interesting implications of the high number of Albanian concordances that appear in the Daco-Thracian languages.

For now this collation focuses on concordances only among placenames.

This is not an exhaustive list, just collation of a few easier to access linguists.

One of the first implications is that there are far more secure concordances with Albanian in the Daco-Thracian territories than there are in Illyria.

By secure I mean undeniable ones like "Mal, Karpë, Burrë," and so on.

The distribution of these placenames can also be used to infer something else.

Namely, that this region of clear Albanoid presence, i.e. a language not necessarily ancestral to Albanian, but a clear phylogenetic cousin of it, is far outside the reach of J2b-L283.

J2b-L283 is totally negligible in this domain.

What this means is that there is a negative signal for relation between J2b-L283 and the Albanoid linguistic family.

E-V13 is the only plausible candidate here for this spread of Albanoid linguistic influence given its prevalence among the Daco-Thracians.

By611 is less clear.

 

[Veriu]

@Johane Derite Your post is pseudolinguistic nonsense. Most of these names have no connection to Albanian even as IE cognates and can't be derived from Proto-Albanian terms. It's pseudolinguistics. You can't just pick ancient terms and then link to them to modern Albanian words without showing how and why they are connected. You have to show why they are shared words and if such shared words manifest regular sound correspondences, they can be considered cognate, i.e., inherited from a common ancestor language which is restricted to just these two languages and to be distinguished from vocabulary which languages may share due to chance or other historical processes, such as loanwords transmitted through contact or the fact that all IE languages might share IE cognates.

You haven't followed any such process because no proper connection can be shown as this is just pseudolinguistics for people who don't understand linguistics. Otherwise, you would understand that Brongos and Brunga can't be shown to have a connection to Albanian Brengë, a noun which in the Proto-Albanian era can be reconstructed as *brainikā from the verb brej < Proto-Albanian *brainja. This is just one of many examples where you just show total lack of understanding about the comparative method and lexical reconstruction.

A few other comments:
- Almost all Mal- toponyms are found in the Roman era either in or near Dardania. They're not from Dacia (with a single exception of Malva near the Danube) or Thrace. Among almost 200 toponyms of Dacian and Thrace, it's clear that this wasn't a common toponym in a Thrace or Dacia. Geographical context matters.
- Karp- is a general IE term. See Greek Karpathos island https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpathos Is it also Proto-Albanian? Are all IE cognates Proto-Albanian? On the other hand, karpa is found in Messapic, the only language which was close to Albanian and its male speakers were J-L283 and R-Z2103 in the Iron Age, so this means that J-L283 and R-Z2103 have to be part of the common Bronze Age ancestry of both. In the same vein, Albanian burrë is IE cognate to Germanic burraz. Could Dacian bur be an IE cognate? Maybe or more likely not because bur- is also attested as bor- which suggests another origin. It could also be equivalent to Thracian pur/por ("child of"), therefore cognate to ancient Greek pais and the closest Albanian IE cognate is the prura. IE chronology context matters.
- Cabylae in Thrace is named after the Phrygian/Anatolian goddess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele . This is a case not just of linguistic nonsense (how could it ever be reconstructed as related to mbyll (PAlb *ambi-wēla)?) but also historical nonsense as this is a well attested deity name. Historical context matters.
- -dava (city/settlement in Dacian) can't be related to Albanian dhe not only because they don't share the same IE root dhe < IE dʰéǵʰōm while -dava < PIE *dʰeh₁- (cognate to Greek thesis, "position") but equally because there is no sound correspondence between any of the variants of the term with Albanian dhe. Internal changes within a language matter. -Dava is one of many variants (-dava, -dova, -diva, -deva) of the same class of names. So which is the original variant? Duridanov in Zum Problem des Spätthrakischen: thrak. deva, diva explains:

The word deva is traced back to the Proto-Indo-European *dhewa with the original meaning "that which is set up" — "place of residence," derived from the Proto-Indo-European root *dhə- : *dhd- meaning "to set, place, lay."

As clearly demonstrated above, the a in the root of dava was long and tended, in Late Dacian, to develop further in the direction of o. It is most likely to be assumed that the Dacian word dava entered northern Thracian dialects, where—according to the phonetic characteristics of Thracian—it was transformed into deva, i.e., deva. This borrowing was made possible through contact with the neighboring Moesian tribes (Duridanov 1976:115 and 1985:15, 127; Georgiev 1977:14).

In this form, the word spread into Moesia Inferior and Moesia Superior as a result of the continuous influx of Thracian population to the north, where place names ending in -deva appear. In some cases, the Thracian deva displaced the Dacian form dava, resulting in a Thracianization of Dacian place names—for example, as seen with the place name Scai-dava (attested in the 3rd century in the Itinerarium Antonini 222,1), which appears in Procopius (6th century) as Σκε-δεβα (see above).

This process continued even in Procopius' time, since in his works one finds double name forms (Dacian and Thracian) for the same fort, cf. Συκί-δαβα / Ζικί-δεβα, Κουιμέ-δαβα / Κουμού-δεβα.

The word deva is likely to have reached the Thracians living south of the Haemus Mountains, as they used it in naming the city Pulpudeva. Regarding the assumed replacement of -a- with -e- here, it should be noted that such changes in the sound structure of words during borrowing into closely related languages or dialects are well known.

The fact that deva in Late Thracian—approximately before the migration of the Slavs into the eastern part of the Balkan Peninsula—had already changed to diva is indicated not only by the Old Bulgarian name form Плъпъдивъ (Plŭpŭdivŭ). A more certain proof is the rendering of another place name by the Byzantine historian Theophylact Simocatta, who lived during the reign of Emperor Heraclius (610–641). In his account of the campaign of the Byzantine general Komentiolos against the Avars, he reports that the general marched to Moesia and pitched his camp at Ζικίδιβα (Historiae VII 13, 8–9).

This place name is identical with Ζικίδεβα in Procopius (De aedificiis IV, 11 — H. 148, 9), where it is listed among the forts rebuilt in the Danube region (see also Beshevliev 1969:493). There is no doubt that in the first half of the 7th century the name was pronounced Ziki-diva.

From the material presented and analyzed above, it can be concluded that the word deva meaning "city" changed to diva in Late Thracian (approximately since the mid-6th century).

The internal chronology, historical meaning of the term and etymology exclude any relation to Albanian. But you wouldn't know it because you just thought that "deva/dava" sort of looks similar to "dhe" and this is the point where your "research" ended. However, this is not the linguistic process of investigation but the pseudolinguistic thought process of people who have never tried to understand the operation of linguistics as a scientific discipline and epistemology.

P.S.
E-V13 as the "only plausible candidate for the spread of Albanoid" is even more nonsensical in view of the fact that just a few branches of E-V13 are connected to Albanians and they're not even the most diverse Albanian clades. The oldest and most diverse are all under J-L283 and R-PF7563 because Albanian is an IE language of the western Balkans. Albanian E-V13 branches were still Proto-Albanian in the Iron Age, but it's ludicrous to claim that E-V13 as a haplogroup spread Albanoid.

 

[Johane Derite]

View attachment 18606


Some of the interesting implications of the high number of Albanian concordances that appear in the Daco-Thracian languages.

For now this collation focuses on concordances only among placenames.

This is not an exhaustive list, just collation of a few easier to access linguists.

One of the first implications is that there are far more secure concordances with Albanian in the Daco-Thracian territories than there are in Illyria.

By secure I mean undeniable ones like "Mal, Karpë, Burrë," and so on.

The distribution of these placenames can also be used to infer something else.

Namely, that this region of clear Albanoid presence, i.e. a language not necessarily ancestral to Albanian, but a clear phylogenetic cousin of it, is far outside the reach of J2b-L283.

J2b-L283 is totally negligible in this domain.

What this means is that there is a negative signal for relation between J2b-L283 and the Albanoid linguistic family.

E-V13 is the only plausible candidate here for this spread of Albanoid linguistic influence given its prevalence among the Daco-Thracians.

By611 is less clear.

What makes all these Albanian - Daco-Thracian concordances that these linguists argue for interesting also is the particular relevance of Albanopolis to the Albanian ethnogenesis.

In Thomas Maurer and Elvana Metalla's latest 2024 study on Albanopolis, their analysis of the earliest inscription to mention Albanopolis, found in North Macedonia, points out the all the names of these early Albanopolis dwellers belong to the Daco-Thracian realm, not the Illyrian realm.

Given that this region is where the Albanian people get their name from, the importance of this cannot be understated.

They write:

"A look at the known Illyrian name material shows the absence of comparable personal names in present-day Albania and the surrounding northern regions.

Thus, we must conclude that the names of the person(s) from Albanopolis mentioned in the inscription from Gorno Sonje are more likely to be associated with the (Western) Thracian than with the Illyrian linguistic area."

 

[Johane Derite]

View attachment 18606


Some of the interesting implications of the high number of Albanian concordances that appear in the Daco-Thracian languages.

For now this collation focuses on concordances only among placenames.

This is not an exhaustive list, just collation of a few easier to access linguists.

One of the first implications is that there are far more secure concordances with Albanian in the Daco-Thracian territories than there are in Illyria.

By secure I mean undeniable ones like "Mal, Karpë, Burrë," and so on.

The distribution of these placenames can also be used to infer something else.

Namely, that this region of clear Albanoid presence, i.e. a language not necessarily ancestral to Albanian, but a clear phylogenetic cousin of it, is far outside the reach of J2b-L283.

J2b-L283 is totally negligible in this domain.

What this means is that there is a negative signal for relation between J2b-L283 and the Albanoid linguistic family.

E-V13 is the only plausible candidate here for this spread of Albanoid linguistic influence given its prevalence among the Daco-Thracians.

By611 is less clear.

This here is a very interesting inscription found in Durrës.

It writes:

PHILETE L
TITI BESSI
SERVAE

In English this means:

"Philete, slave of Lucius Titius Bessus."


There are a few interesting things to note here.

1. The cognomen "Bessus" denotes Thracoid ancestry
2. The nomen Lucius Titius point to this Bessus being an integrated Roman citizen to a degree.
3. This Bessus owns a slave, reinforcing that.
4. His slave has a name that is attested in Dalmatia, meaning either his slave is a Dalmatian, or a local Illyrian if the name was also present among the Illyrians proper of Albania.
5. His slave was a female.
6. This inscription is dated to the 1st Century AD.
7. This inscription is found in Durrës, then Dyrrachium.


The implications of this being that this inscription establishes that at least some Thracians made it to Durrës, Albania as early as the 1st Century AD, and that they were economically powerful enough to own either Dalmatian or local Illyrian women as slaves.

At that time it was not uncommon for masters to also have offspring with slaves.