Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[mount123]

Reason for deletion: responding to banned user @Aspurg, now under the sock puppet account @Oroku Saki

 

[Oroku Saki]

So much non sense. There is a lot of diversity and overlapping of J2b-L283 clades by the time of the Illyrian wars. Therefore the Bellum Batonianum would have involved many other major J2b-L283 clades and not just one. Illyrians were patriarchal hence being organized in tribes. This is manifested in archaeogenetic data of their clan tumuli. The link between J2b-L283 and the Illyrian sphere is crystal clear and cannot be restricted to single clades as all L283 show the same phylogenetic pattern. As of right now from Ston southwards and even Illyrian related settlements in Italy Z638+ clades are present. In Northern Illyrians (modern day Slovenia/Croatia border region) you also have a YP91+ IA sample, a harbinger as to what will be found in Northern Cetina-Dinaric groups.

https://phylogeographer.com/educated-speculation-on-j2b-z638-subclades-bronze-and-iron-age-tribal-affinities-and-migrations/


As said above, besides, already in BA core Cetina-Dinaric Dalmatia (Ston) southwards (Kotorr etc.) and inland Z638+ clades dominate: https://phylogeographer.com/what-1100-bce-velika-gruda-sample-means-for-j2b-z1297-origins/

I was the one who initiated the J-Z631 Glasinac-Mati connection. Still, J-Z631 is also not so important today

Still the rebellion was far more prominent in the Western part and therefore should have contained more J-Y15058.

We see some E-V13 Thracians and Moesians putting an end to Illyrian statehood. I guess those are the E-V13 Illyricani of Bruzmi.

I almost had a stroke reading this. The hell is "states or political". Learn some basic English grammar before you try to make a point. I carry the J2b-L283 haplogroup, you crackpot.

I often write much and I have limited time to waste on an irrelevant tiny internet forum frequented by 20 Italian Americans and Albanians. Typo by accidentally clicking on Auto Text Suggestion. Obviously I wouldn't use an adjective in place obviously meant for a noun. I meant "polities", states and polities, obviously referring to some forms of organization above mere tribal organization.

My English was assessed long time ago by relevant authorities and is graded as "equivalent to a native speaker". And I sound like an Anglo person, not like a Mexican crossing the border, or Albanian boarding a boat to reach the UK.

https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-63473022

Why is UK so popular, Rita Ora and Dua Lipa fans? Btw. due to my linguistic knowledge I can say that mr. Bruzmi spent plenty of time in the UK.


J-L283? You don't speak Illyrian language, and you don't know how to learn it. Nobody does. Your only hope is for someone like me to pick it up and reconstruct it, which is beyond extremely difficult. I can easily spot meanings in Sarmatian or Scythian personal names because I know Persian, Ossetian, Pashto (a.k.a. Taliban ) etc. Its almost impossible to do the same with Illyrian personal names using Albanian.

What's really "butthurting" is that I have been correct on so many points, and much of what you are repeating has been said long ago by myself. Why don't you create something new? If I wanted to, I could find new relevant facts for J-L283 and Illyrians in a matter of days or hours.. And for a whole year you and your crew are coming up with almost nothing.

And the scumbag who provoked me and tried to ban me at anthrogenica, Excine, used to say "wait until you see the Southern Albanian Illyrian V13", well we saw the Southern Albanian results and again no V13..

 

[torzio]

So much non sense. There is a lot of diversity and overlapping of J2b-L283 clades by the time of the Illyrian wars. Therefore the Bellum Batonianum would have involved many other major J2b-L283 clades and not just one. Illyrians were patriarchal hence being organized in tribes. This is manifested in archaeogenetic data of their clan tumuli. The link between J2b-L283 and the Illyrian sphere is crystal clear and cannot be restricted to single clades as all L283 show the same phylogenetic pattern. As of right now from Ston southwards and even Illyrian related settlements in Italy Z638+ clades are present. In Northern Illyrians (modern day Slovenia/Croatia border region) you also have a YP91+ IA sample, a harbinger as to what will be found in Northern Cetina-Dinaric groups.

https://phylogeographer.com/educated-speculation-on-j2b-z638-subclades-bronze-and-iron-age-tribal-affinities-and-migrations/

As said above, besides, already in BA core Cetina-Dinaric Dalmatia (Ston) southwards (Kotorr etc.) and inland Z638+ clades dominate: https://phylogeographer.com/what-1100-bce-velika-gruda-sample-means-for-j2b-z1297-origins/



I almost had a stroke reading this. The hell is "states or political". Learn some basic English grammar before you try to make a point. I carry the J2b-L283 haplogroup, you crackpot.

why you mixing up history times ?

Bellum Batonianum fought against the Romans in the Great Illyrian revolt in AD times and not BC times..............this revolt involved mostly dalmatians and Pannonians against Romans

stop mixing dates to suit your needs

If you want to know the tribes involved let me know and I will produce the roman records

 

[Johane Derite]

One theory about the origin of the proto-Albanians is that they were among the "Sermesians" led by Kuber in the 600s AD.


The Sermesians were mixed balkan locals that had been uprooted and deported to Syrmia (Srem today) by Slavs and Avars.


They later moved south led by Kuber as stated in the "Miracles of Saint Demetrius".

It is said they were banished from Thessaloniki after some conspiracy of theirs led by Mauros was foiled. It is mentioned that some among the Sermesians "sought out their ancestral cities."

Some connect the treasures of Vrap and Ersekë in Albania to these movements from Kuber and his followers.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Albanian presence in the western Balkans did not start at the Greek border zone. This people were likely Roman speaking. In the supplementary of Southern Arc the following was said for the cemeteries at Shtike:

The cemeteries at Kolonja plateau are early mdv and fit the timeline of the quotations posted about the enslaved Romans(led by Kuber). The only sample that was tested showed a largely non-Slavic autosomal profile, with a strong south Thracian component. Early Albanians if the Kukes mdv is a indication, should show a strong Bassarabi like profile.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

R-Z2103 from which paper, I did not ask for anything on R-Z2103, either I made a good guess or I got the information the other way. Danubian paper? Unpublished paper, Southern arch?

I misunderstood your post, I assumed you said the R-Z2103 fellow was the easternmost plotting sample of the Balkan IA profiles, but you were referring to the R-Z2103 sample that was pseudo Celtic/Germanic. From that bad assumption, I thought you must have corresponded with one of the authors.

I often write much and I have limited time to waste on an irrelevant tiny internet forum frequented by 20 Italian Americans and Albanians.

Anthrogenica just announced they are closing shop, opening up more market share for eupedia going forward. I would not complain much, archeogenetics is niche hobby, and in this forum you are allowed to speak freely, be blunt or disagree with others. As opposed to the other forum, where they have a gigantic legislation of rules, and they pick and choose when to apply it. They want people without a mouth but they are too cowardly to openly state it. At least this is a forum and not masquerading as one.

 

[Olti27]

In 2016 Matzinger discards Noel Malcolm's arguments regarding compound names in Albanian (i.e. in toponyms like "Bessapara") and demonstrates that this was the original form in Albanian too, and the change to how it is now could have happened relatively late.

In the thing you posted, nowhere does Matzinger demonstrate that albanian had a place name structure like Daco-Thracian. He just assumes and invents things.
His reasoning is on the level of since albanian and serbian are both indoeuropean than albanian must have been a slavic language. Ancient greek, latin and illyrian languages are also indoeuropean but they too like albanian don't have a place name structure like Daco-Thracian. More over Matzinger too rejects a connection between albanian and daco-thracian so this remarks by him against Malcom, who argues the same thing, just seems suspicious.
It is like he doesn't like that Malcom uses this argument in favor of albanian-illyrian conection.
Malcolm arguments remain strong!

 

[Olti27]

We even have old Albanian names having the same compound structure: Burrmadhi, Gurakuqi, Kryeziu. So, not a strong argument indeed.

Also, for the record, Ancient Macedonians were Dorian tribe, even archaic. As for Epirotes, although by toponyms it is suggested Dorians might have lived there, none of old classical authors considered them Dorian AFAIK. Epirotans are a question-mark for now. They might have been related to Greeks more distantly, even part of Greek ethnos or some sort of Hellenized population, IDK.

Comparing apples to oranges but let for a moment compare them. Burrmadhi from burri i madh, Gurakuqi from gur i kuq, Kryeziu from krye i zi whence we have Qytet Stalin(Kuçovë) from Qyteti i Stalinit. If it had anything to do with Daco-Thracian we would have had, StalinQytet(stalingrad), Madhburri, Kuqguri, Zikrye.
Malcolm arguments remain strong!

 

[Olti27]

Hahah the shameless liar Bruzmi is already attempting to spin his webs yet again, now trying to claim the Triballi were not one of the main people mentioned in Moesia.

He even tries to use Appian, who didn't know the difference between the Paeonians and Pannonians, as a credible source.

He lies outright that "the only actual information for them in antiquity concerns their location in northern Bulgaria."

Just like his attempts to fabricate a world in which the Brnjica culture doesn't exist, his lies are here for all to see. He claims there is no ancient information for Triballians location in antiquity except in northern Bulgaria. A claim that is beyond false.


Here I will list countless ancient authors that reference the Triballi, that obviously demonstrate he is a pathological liar not to be trusted:


1.

"From the Illyrians the river Angros flows northwards and runs out into the Triballian plain and into the river Brongos, and the Brongos flows into the Ister; thus the Ister receives both these, being great rivers. From the region which is above the Ombricans, the river Carpis and another river, the Alpis, flow also towards the North Wind and run into it; for the Ister flows in fact through the whole of Europe, beginning in the land of the Keltoi, who after the Kynesians dwell furthest towards the sun-setting of all the peoples of Europe; and thus flowing through all Europe it falls into the sea by the side of Scythia" (Herodotus, Histories, 4.49 - ca. 430 BCE )

I don't know what the arguments are on anthrogenica but Appian is a reliable source. You just don't like him because he includes Dardanians among the Illyrians. The confusion of Paeonians/Pannonians is comon in ancient literature. You yourself posted as a source a letter of Julian the Emperor to the senate where he describes the Mysians(on the bank of the Danube) as dwealling between the Thracians and the Paeonians, clearly he means the Pannonians if we look at the geography. The confusion most probably stems from the fact that the ancient greeks from before roman era knew only about the Paeonians. In antiquity (when the Paeonians had already vanished as a people), they learn about the Pannonians so they just asume that they are the old Paeonians.

By the way the river Angros of the Illyrians that flows northward could be the South Morava that flows into the west Morava(Brongos) and together into the Danube(Ister) or it could be the river Sitnica/Ibar (central Kosovo) that flow into South Morava(Brongos) but in both cases this Illyrians are in core Dardanian area.

 

[torzio]

I don't know what the arguments are on anthrogenica but Appian is a reliable source. You just don't like him because he includes Dardanians among the Illyrians. The confusion of Paeonians/Pannonians is comon in ancient literature. You yourself posted as a source a letter of Julian the Emperor to the senate where he describes the Mysians(on the bank of the Danube) as dwealling between the Thracians and the Paeonians, clearly he means the Pannonians if we look at the geography. The confusion most probably stems from the fact that the ancient greeks from before roman era knew only about the Paeonians. In antiquity (when the Paeonians had already vanished as a people) they learn about the Pannonias so they just asume that they are the old Paeionians.

By the way the river Angros of the Illyrians that flows northward could be the South Morava that flows into the west Morava(Brongos) and together into the Danube(Ister) or it could be the river Sitnica/Ibar (central Kosovo) that flow into South Morava(Brongos) but in both cases this Illyrians are in core Dardanian area.
View attachment 13979

Strabo also includes Dardanians as Illyrians...............but he also includes Rhaeti and Vindelic tribes as Illyrian tribes, these are alpine tribes in modern austria

 

[Olti27]

Brumi wants to mold non-Illyrian haplogroups into Illyrian ethnos through the forging of greater Illyria, push the borders as far they need to be, to appropriate other people's haplogroup. Did you guys know Triballi barely even existed?

Well according to Hammond in his book Migrations And Invasions In Greece And Adjacent Areas, the Illyrians had expanded quite a lot ruling in ancient Macedonia, Peaonia and even expelling the Maedi with archeological finds in Pella and Shtip. He also noted peaceful Illyrian settling throughout Epirus even thou he considered epirots as greeks.
Here you can find dhe PDF of the book: https://dokumen.pub/migrations-and-invasions-in-greece-and-adjacent-areas-9780815550471-0815550472.html

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Well according to Hammond in his book Migrations And Invasions In Greece And Adjacent Areas, the Illyrians had expanded quite a lot ruling in ancient Macedonia, Peaonia and even expelling the Maedi with archeological finds in Pella and Shtip. He also noted peaceful Illyrian settling throughout Epirus even thou he considered epirots as greeks.
Here you can find dhe PDF of the book: https://dokumen.pub/migrations-and-invasions-in-greece-and-adjacent-areas-9780815550471-0815550472.html

View attachment 13980

Of course Illyrians had their moment and experienced great successes, Cetina (proto-Illyrians) even had colonies in almost all parts of Italy which later had zero Illyrian presence. Are you going to lay claim to R-L151 Italics or you don't have any territorial aspirations toward Italy? It's very disingenuous to lay claim to haplogroups that have nothing to do with Illyrians because at one brief moment in time Illyrians passed through a certain territory. You might as well claim Illyrian top haplogroup was E-V13, because in present day Albania E-V13 is the leading haplogroup, and basically ignore the content and timeline involved. Just don't expect not to be called on the dishonesty. Brumi is a fraudulent character.

The paper you linked I have read a very long time ago btw, and it is just as I recall it. Illyrian rule was broken by the Cimmerians. Pay attention to what happened.

The only thing that I have changed my position on is the Iron Age Dardani were Illyrian and mostly R-CTS1450, their origins should be from the eastern Illyrian world, eastern Bosnia/western Serbia. These great Illyrian migration Hammond is describing in Macedonia and Korca region are lead by R-CTS1450, they ultimately go back to the Vatin variant that was assimilated into Illyrians during MBA. A twist of fate that the Illyrians that invade former R-BY611 territory(Brnjica) are themselves a Vatin variant. R-CTS1450 just can't stop itself from wanting to be in the center of the Balkans where the other Vatin derived cultures once lived.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The cemeteries at Kolonja plateau are early mdv and fit the timeline of the quotations posted about the enslaved Romans(led by Kuber). The only sample that was tested showed a largely non-Slavic autosomal profile, with a strong south Thracian component. Early Albanians if the Kukes mdv is a indication, should show a strong Bassarabi like profile.

Let's built up on this. Back when southern Arc came out, some of the rrenjet members were posting their distances, bragging about their matches being mostly Illyrian. Cool, very cool. But how do these early Albanians from 1500s distance with, they are closer in time to the IA people, let's see their results.

Not very surprising they have strong preference for the Bassarabi profile. What is surprising, is that certain South Thracian are neck and neck with Cinamak. I plotted these Thracians in PCA to get a visual.

The only Thracians that are favored are the ones closer to Bassarabi. Of the current Bassarabi profiles, the one with the most South Thracian pull I18832-E-V13 is the current top scorer. This is a good indication that a Bassarabi profile with a little more south Thracian pull will likely create a better match. We will find out soon when the samples from Roman Moesia get published.

 

[Hawk]

Comparing apples to oranges but let for a moment compare them. Burrmadhi from burri i madh, Gurakuqi from gur i kuq, Kryeziu from krye i zi whence we have Qytet Stalin(Kuçovë) from Qyteti i Stalinit. If it had anything to do with Daco-Thracian we would have had, StalinQytet(stalingrad), Madhburri, Kuqguri, Zikrye.
Malcom Arguments remain strong!

Pointless, irrelevant comparisons. My point was compound words, not the arrangement of words.

Point being i can continue with other counter-arguments, but my reply was explicitly about compound words, and i was right.

 

[mount123]

@PaleoRevenge

Your chronology doesn't work. It is best adhering to archaeogenetic reality and that is that what during the Classical and Imperial period is known to be Dardania during BA-IA was home to more than 3 cultural complexes and additional influences.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

@PaleoRevenge

Your chronology doesn't work. It is best adhering to archaeogenetic reality and that is that what during the Classical and Imperial period is known to be Dardania during BA-IA was home to more than 3 cultural complexes and additional influences.

I'll make post later today on the southern Albania tumulus thread, but in short the massive Illyrian invasion of Macedonia (see the link Olti posted) has strong connections with R-CTS1450. They were originally a branch of Vatin that wedged into Belotic-Crvka territory, they were assimilated into Illyrian spehere, by LBA/EIA they carried Illyrian culture and aDNA profile.

I am not implying all R-CTS1450 branches are Illyrian, but a specific one became Illyrian and was the dominant haplogroup of what we know as Illyrian Dardani.

Belotic Crvka starts out as J2b dominated.

Vatin variant( a branch of Vatin) wedges itself, and gradually assimilates.

The R-CTS1450 with Illyrian profile in MKD is not a accident, nor is the R-CTS1450 from the abstract of southern Albanian paper, which specifically states R-CTS1450 takes over after 750 BC (this is in agreement with the timeline of the massive Illyrian invasion). The best explanation to me is, these are Vatin-variants, having become fully Illyrian. The other explanation, R-CTS1450 are just as Illyrian as J2b-L283. I don't agree with the 2nd because it's distribution from evidence so far is very specific in Illyrian context.

In the map of MBA there will other R-CTS1450 zones that are not Illyrian such as Vatin and Paracin (author lumps Paracin and Brnjica in one bag).

 

[Hawk]

R1b-C5S1450 could have been in South Albania, Macedonia all along. We don't know that. Vatin might be true, but, it doesn't convince me at the moment. Though, the Enchelei burials described by Pasko Kuzman are clearly Danubian Urnfield influenced.

We shall see.

 

[mount123]

R1b-C5S1450 could have been in South Albania, Macedonia all along. We don't know that. Vatin might be true, but, it doesn't convince me at the moment. Though, the Enchelei burials described by Pasko Kuzman are clearly Danubian Urnfield influenced.

We shall see.

I think so too. Especially since it is already attested in Bronze Age North Macedonia.

 

[mount123]

The same people that portray Belotic Bela Crkva as Proto-Illyrian are the same who also claim Belegis Gava to be Proto-Illyrian.

Where is the Dinaric culture phase in the map? The chronology is Cetina - Dinaric - Glasinac. These are not restricted to the coast at all and go deep inland.

Vatin and Belotic Bela Crkva remain to be seen but I would at best lean more towards a diverse uniparental distribution. I do expect some J2b-L283 presence in Bela Crkva, as an influence from the west. These are peripheral groups (in a geographic sense).

I agree with Hawk hat R1b-Z2103>CTS1450 would have had an old Bronze Age presence in North Macedonia, Albania, and highly likely Dardania (Kosovo and surroundings) too.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The same people that portray Belotic Bela Crkva as Proto-Illyrian are the same who also claim Belegis Gava to be Proto-Illyrian.

Where is the Dinaric culture phase in the map? The chronology is Cetina - Dinaric - Glasinac. These are not restricted to the coast at all and go deep inland.

Vatin and Belotic Bela Crkva remain to be seen but I would at best lean more towards a diverse uniparental distribution. I do expect some J2b-L283 presence in Bela Crkva, as an influence from the west. These are peripheral groups (in a geographic sense).

I agree with Hawk hat R1b-Z2103>CTS1450 would have had an old Bronze Age presence in North Macedonia, Albania, and highly likely Dardania (Kosovo and surroundings) too.

Archeologists also connect Belotic Bela Crkva with Cetina, I am not going to disregard that appraisal because a dubious character jumps on the band wagon, he does it for personal reasons. Eventually we will get samples, no one has confirmed it to me, but based on what was disclosed at anthrogenica, EBA samples from Bosnia and Serbia are on the way. Probably from Macedonia too.

For Macedonia I am more inclined to think Armenchori was J2a dominated. We should see though.

Another map from youtube archeology presentations. Cetina presence is exaggerated in Italy and Greece, these were coastal colonies, not entire regional takeover.