Which People, Apart from Slavs, Played the Greatest Role in Yugoslav Ethnogenesis?

[HiveMindTerror]

I've been reading The Illyrians by John Wilkes. It's immensely interesting and enlightening on these vaguely known people.

Some of the things that caught my attention were passages of how Celts settled and endured in Pannonia. How the Greeks dominated and colonized islands off the Croatian coast. And how later the Romans devastated the region. There were Illyrian remnants living around emptied ghost towns due to the slaughter and slavery of the Romans. Later on Roman (Italian) colonists seem to have become the settlers of many of those coastal cities, not Illyrian natives.

Before I always assumed Illyrians played the largest role in South Slav development (the Mediterranean, etc aspects of their dna), apart from Slavs themselves. But after reading how they were devastated, and this goes on well until the Slavs invaded, I began to wonder if they played less of a roll than is thought.

So are there any ideas or theories about what other cultures/ethnicities might have blended to form modern South Slavs, who, while related, are also quite different from northern Slavs?
Also, I constantly hear differing opinions on whether South Slavs are majority ethnic Slav or other, is there a consensus on that yet? For example one source states they're typically 60%+ Slavic, others that they're hardly 20%.

 

[DuPidh]

I've been reading The Illyrians by John Wilkes. It's immensely interesting and enlightening on these vaguely known people.
Some of the things that caught my attention were passages of how Celts settled and endured in Pannonia. How the Greeks dominated and colonized islands off the Croatian coast. And how later the Romans devastated the region. There were Illyrian remnants living around emptied ghost towns due to the slaughter and slavery of the Romans. Later on Roman (Italian) colonists seem to have become the settlers of many of those coastal cities, not Illyrian natives.
Before I always assumed Illyrians played the largest role in South Slav development (the Mediterranean, etc aspects of their dna), apart from Slavs themselves. But after reading how they were devastated, and this goes on well until the Slavs invaded, I began to wonder if they played less of a roll than is thought.
So are there any ideas or theories about what other cultures/ethnicities might have blended to form modern South Slavs, who, while related, are also quite different from northern Slavs?
Also, I constantly hear differing opinions on whether South Slavs are majority ethnic Slav or other, is there a consensus on that yet? For example one source states they're typically 60%+ Slavic, others that they're hardly 20%.

Slavs are majority Slavic R1a+Slavic I2a+N+Q+C. Slavs lack or have little R1b,E,J,. The authority on Illyrians are Roman, Greek sources of antiquity not Wilkes. So according to me Slavs have Mongolian ethnicity (N,C) and Chinese (O) other than Slavic , also Turkic (Q)

 

[HiveMindTerror]

Slavs are majority Slavic R1a+Slavic I2a+N+Q+C. Slavs lack or have little R1b,E,J,. The authority on Illyrians are Roman, Greek sources of antiquity not Wilkes. So according to me Slavs have Mongolian ethnicity (N,C) and Chinese (O) other than Slavic , also Turkic (Q)

As far as I've learned, haplogroups are a tiny part of genetic identity.

Wilkes is an expert, he presents what Romans and Greeks wrote, and what was found from archeological sites.

 

[DuPidh]

As far as I've learned, haplogroups are a tiny part of genetic identity.




Wilkes has his point of view on the matter, either biased or confused. His views are being challenged and he is one voice on the matter but not the ultimate voice. Slavs before coming to Balkans lived and absorbed many Romanian tribes. It would be fare to say that either way Slavs are majority of their genes Slavic. Greeks of antiquity have described the arrival of Slavs in the Balkan's as a human tsunami!
Wave after wave of unbelievable crowds of people settling among Balkan people. Balkans were not recovered by the 5th century plague that devastated the region. That's why they found it easy to settle in Illyrian lands sparsely populated

 

[bicicleur 2]

the extent of the impact of the plague is unknown, one can only guess

 

[bigsnake49]

the extent of the impact of the plague is unknown, one can only guess

One may theorize that it probably devastated port cities, with urban areas on major roads also severely affected. I am thinking much less effect on rural and mountainous areas. But you are right, we don't know the exact number of dead people.

 

[DuPidh]

the extent of the impact of the plague is unknown, one can only guess

It was a major event of the time, that's why is still remembered. Many pandemic events have also population movements. That pandemic was so bad as it took 3 centuries to replace the population

 

[HiveMindTerror]

Greeks of antiquity have described the arrival of Slavs in the Balkan's as a human tsunami!
Wave after wave of unbelievable crowds of people settling among Balkan people. Balkans were not recovered by the 5th century plague that devastated the region. That's why they found it easy to settle in Illyrian lands sparsely populated

You say that but I've read an article that explains how, autosomal dna shows South Slavs being no closer related to north Slavs than they are with Hungarians and Romanians.

 

[Philjames100]

The Yugos.

 

[don_joe]

There will hardly ever be a consensus on Slav percentage, since a Slav is primarily a linguistic denotation.

South Slavs mixed mostly with Vlachs and Albanians, both of those are a mixture of other folks (Illyrians, Thracians, Dardanians e.g. and all known and unknown peoples).

As a layman, without knowing anything about genealogy, I find interesting comparing my northern with my southern countrymen. A typical northern appearance from Slavonia is more "Slav" like, blond, round or oval face, sturdy stature, average height. A characteristical Dalmatian would often be described as "tall, dark, slender". They don't look alike at all but they equally proudly wave our same country flag.

If we take the Slavonian as a Slavic reference and as a proof that the Slavs migrated indeed massively to the Balkans, who made then the Damatian look differently? Obviously there was a lot of people already there as the Slavs arrived. We see a similar picture in other ex. Yugoslavian countries. Judging on the looks of the South Slavs only, I would say there were not only remnants but a serious mass of people left. The Ottoman invasion caused another wave of migration in the 16th century, pushing more Vlachs to the North which contributed again to the melting pot.

 

[bicicleur 2]

There is a difference between south Slavs and northern Slavs in Y DNA.
Northern Slavs have more R1a, southern Slavs have more I2a.
Nevertheless their origins must lay in the same area.

 

[don_joe]

There is a difference between south Slavs and northern Slavs in Y DNA.
Northern Slavs have more R1a, southern Slavs have more I2a.
Nevertheless their origins must lay in the same area.

Southern Slavs have much more E-V13.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Southern Slavs have much more E-V13.

do you think E-V13 is Slavic in origin?

or is there some subclade of E-V13 which might be Slavic?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

It seems to me E-V13 was part of the original population prior to the arrival of the Slavs.
They expanded in the 5th millenium BC.

 

[ihype02]

We have samples from early Pagan Slavs as well as from Iron Age Bulgaria, Bronze Age Dalmatia and Bronze Age Moldova.
Serbs can be modelled as 55%-60% Slavic plus 45%-40% Bronze Age Moldovian, knowing that Moldova lies northeast of modern Serbia.
Croats are pushed roughly 70% away from Bronze Age Dalmatians, who plot like Northern Italians.
Bulgarians can be modeled as 40%-45% Slavic and the later being Thracian, but they probably have some Anatolian-related admixture too.
I bet Bosnians fall in between of Serbs and Croats.

We also do not know for sure by the time Slavs reached Bulgaria if they were like those early Medieval Samples we have.

 

[don_joe]

do you think E-V13 is Slavic in origin?

or is there some subclade of E-V13 which might be Slavic?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

It seems to me E-V13 was part of the original population prior to the arrival of the Slavs.
They expanded in the 5th millenium BC.

No, no...I thought only that the South Slavs mixed a lot with the peoples that were there before them. E-V13 in that amount was obviously there before their arrival. That was my point, high degree of mixture, at least in the southern parts.

The OP asked a question with whom did the South Slaves mix mostly.

 

[bicicleur 2]

No, no...I thought only that the South Slavs mixed a lot with the peoples that were there before them. E-V13 in that amount was obviously there before their arrival. That was my point, high degree of mixture, at least in the southern parts.

The OP asked a question with whom did the South Slaves mix mostly.

yes, they mixed
but original Slavs were R1a or I2a
somehow more I2a came south, or they expanded in the south

 

[don_joe]

yes, they mixed
but original Slavs were R1a or I2a
somehow more I2a came south, or they expanded in the south

R1a and I2a had to mix somewhere from 2 groups of people. Over a certain area we would have a different mixture scaled from one side to the other. If e.g. the southern part of Slavs with more I2a from the South-East, from Cucuteni-Trypillian area went further to the South, they could easily be more I2a. Or it could be just a genetic drift in the new homeland.

But it is not just I2a that makes the South Slavs specific, it's E-V13 too. Now, this is only Y-DNA we're talking about and just a part of the picture.

If we say that R1a + I2a = Slavic, do Hungarians have nearly 1/2 of Slavs in their country? [emoji4]

 

[HiveMindTerror]

There will hardly ever be a consensus on Slav percentage, since a Slav is primarily a linguistic denotation.

South Slavs mixed mostly with Vlachs and Albanians, both of those are a mixture of other folks (Illyrians, Thracians, Dardanians e.g. and all known and unknown peoples).

As a layman, without knowing anything about genealogy, I find interesting comparing my northern with my southern countrymen. A typical northern appearance from Slavonia is more "Slav" like, blond, round or oval face, sturdy stature, average height. A characteristical Dalmatian would often be described as "tall, dark, slender". They don't look alike at all but they equally proudly wave our same country flag.

If we take the Slavonian as a Slavic reference and as a proof that the Slavs migrated indeed massively to the Balkans, who made then the Damatian look differently? Obviously there was a lot of people already there as the Slavs arrived. We see a similar picture in other ex. Yugoslavian countries. Judging on the looks of the South Slavs only, I would say there were not only remnants but a serious mass of people left. The Ottoman invasion caused another wave of migration in the 16th century, pushing more Vlachs to the North which contributed again to the melting pot.

Yeah I absolutely agree. My family is Croatian from Bosnia, and are a microcosm of that. My mother is fair, blonde, blue-eyed, with a round face, you would call her stereotypically Polish. My father on the other hand is tall, broad shouldered, with a dark complexion, and longer head shape (I guess Dinaric?) but he wouldn't be out of place in any Mediterranean country. I'm not too sure if saying South Slavs are mixed with Albanians is right though. According to my K36, I'm closer to Hungarians and Romanians than I am to Albanians. However, it gets a little weird, and I wonder if anyone here could unravel this for me.

My K15 two population sharing is as follows:

+	@
+	@
+	@

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="colspan: 3"] Primary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 3"] Secondary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]55.7%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Greek[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]44.3%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Estonian_Polish[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.96[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]52.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Greek[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]47.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Russian_Smolensk[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]8.27[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]56.4%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Greek[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]43.6%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Belorussian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]8.39[/TD]

So would the Greek be a Paleo-Balkan group of some kind? Because I doubt I have Greek heritage... And the Estonian/Polish/Russian/etc would that be Slavic?

I'm also a little confused because according to my K15 results I look to be much more "Slavic" with the higher Baltic and East Euro, not too sure what "Atlantic" is?

#PopulationPercent
1Baltic21.86
2Atlantic21.66
3Eastern_Euro14.1
4West_Med13.97
5East_Med13.53
6North_Sea7.37
7West_Asian4.34
8South_Asian1.49
9Siberian0.84
10Amerindian0.51
11Red_Sea0.32

do you think E-V13 is Slavic in origin?
or is there some subclade of E-V13 which might be Slavic?
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
It seems to me E-V13 was part of the original population prior to the arrival of the Slavs.
They expanded in the 5th millennium BC.

I'm curious why people are heavily relying on haplogroup data still? I could well be wrong, but from what I've come to understand haplogroups don't exactly mean much in terms of a persons heritage, and that autosomal data is much more important?

* * * * *

Also, earlier in this thread I talked about how the Illyrians seem to have dwindled, and nearly vanished. Well I read the conclusion of Wilkes book about Illyrians, and it seems the South Slavs may have inherited several Illyrian customs: such as the way they made bread, the Kolo dance which may come from an Illyrian tradition, and tattooing in the region (famous among my own people - look up Bosnian Croat tattoos) among other things. He says, this isn't necessarily due to intermixing of the population by blood, but some cultural inheritance which could have spread throughout the region.

 

[don_joe]

Yeah I absolutely agree. My family is Croatian from Bosnia, and are a microcosm of that. My mother is fair, blonde, blue-eyed, with a round face, you would call her stereotypically Polish. My father on the other hand is tall, broad shouldered, with a dark complexion, and longer head shape (I guess Dinaric?) but he wouldn't be out of place in any Mediterranean country. I'm not too sure if saying South Slavs are mixed with Albanians is right though. According to my K36, I'm closer to Hungarians and Romanians than I am to Albanians. However, it gets a little weird, and I wonder if anyone here could unravel this for me.

My K15 two population sharing is as follows:

	+	@
+	@
+	@

[TD="align: center"] # [/TD]

[TD="colspan: 3"] Primary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 3"] Secondary Population (source) [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]55.7%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Greek[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]44.3%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Estonian_Polish[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]7.96[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]52.9%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Greek[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]47.1%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Russian_Smolensk[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]8.27[/TD]

[TD="width: 20, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 15"][/TD]
[TD="width: 30, align: right"]56.4%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Greek[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: right"]43.6%[/TD]
[TD="width: 200"]Belorussian[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]8.39[/TD]

So would the Greek be a Paleo-Balkan group of some kind? Because I doubt I have Greek heritage... And the Estonian/Polish/Russian/etc would that be Slavic?

I'm also a little confused because according to my K15 results I look to be much more "Slavic" with the higher Baltic and East Euro, not too sure what "Atlantic" is?

#PopulationPercent
1Baltic21.86
2Atlantic21.66
3Eastern_Euro14.1
4West_Med13.97
5East_Med13.53
6North_Sea7.37
7West_Asian4.34
8South_Asian1.49
9Siberian0.84
10Amerindian0.51
11Red_Sea0.32




I'm curious why people are heavily relying on haplogroup data still? I could well be wrong, but from what I've come to understand haplogroups don't exactly mean much in terms of a persons heritage, and that autosomal data is much more important?

* * * * *

Also, earlier in this thread I talked about how the Illyrians seem to have dwindled, and nearly vanished. Well I read the conclusion of Wilkes book about Illyrians, and it seems the South Slavs may have inherited several Illyrian customs: such as the way they made bread, the Kolo dance which may come from an Illyrian tradition, and tattooing in the region (famous among my own people - look up Bosnian Croat tattoos) among other things. He says, this isn't necessarily due to intermixing of the population by blood, but some cultural inheritance which could have spread throughout the region.

It's similar with my family, my mother's side is from Bosnia too.

When I say the South Slavs are mixed with Albanians too, I'm not refering to Croatia in the first place. You have "Yugoslavian Ethnogenesis" in your title, which is fair, very often some processes took place over broader areas in the Balkans. You as a Bosnian Croat have probably more Vlach than Albanian heritage. Somewhere more South-East it's the other way around.

There are also many calculators, not all of them are suitable for every group of people. Try some other calculators. I'm not an expert but I just ran my comparison on Gedmatch with Eurogenes K13 for example and these are the first few lines, populations approximation:

1 Croatian @ 3.819975
2 Hungarian @ 5.583797
3 Moldavian @ 7.140141
4 South_Polish @ 8.110185
5 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 8.251887
6 Ukrainian @ 9.721457
7 East_German @ 9.790233
8 Austrian @ 10.142673
9 Serbian @ 11.326592
10 Polish @ 12.053981

I don't know which calculator is the best but try a few out.

Regarding tradition and tattoos, the Celts were also mining in Bosnia, they had a tattooing tradition too. I found something interesting about Liburnes, Illyrian tribe that was living around North Adria and which influenced the Roman shipbuilding. On some Croatian Islands in Kvarner region, there are dialects that contain some 6500 archaic words which are not Slav or Roman in origin but they belong to a paleobalkan substrate, probably Liburnian. Even the grammar in these dialect is quite different from what we know. I didn't find much details yet but it is mentioned here in the Croatian version of Wikipedia:

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburni

Just one more note on haplogroups, why do people still rely on haplogroups: although your Y-DNA doesn't make you what you are, it mutates quickly enough to enable a good ancestry tracking in relation to migrations in Eurasia or the old world. mtDNA mutates slowlier but tells a lot about the social dynamics, like did the invaders from the steppes bring their families with them or did they take local wives upon arrival. Haplotypes and subgroups tell the regional history. In America and maybe Canada, I suppose the people are more interested in the ethnic portions they have inherited (English, French, German, Swedish, Polish, native American etc.), since the most people are relatively recently mixed.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I'm curious why people are heavily relying on haplogroup data still? I could well be wrong, but from what I've come to understand haplogroups don't exactly mean much in terms of a persons heritage, and that autosomal data is much more important?

the Slavs started out as a small group and there are a few sublcades of Y-DNA that can be pinpointed as their 'founding fathers'
later they expanded and they admixed with different people in different areas, altering and diversifying their autosomal DNA
I guess it is not possible either to define the whole extant Slavic population by a specific autosomal DNA either

this is not only true for the Slavs, it is like that for all people that started from a small founding population in the past and expanded to a large population today