who are the pommeranians?

[Dagne]

When I look at urns from Pomerania and Prussia I am rather persuaded by Gimbutas that Pomeranians were a Western Baltic tribe.

Fig. 18. Face-urns. Fifth century B.C. a, b, from eastern Pomerania near Danzig; c, from Samland

Fig. 28. a-d, Geometrically decorated Prussian urns from the fourth-third centuries B.C.; e, urn with “eyes”; f, pot within a dish filled with uncremated bird bones


Also, in the earlier picture at #15 there is a large spiral head pin which is also very typical for Baltics. I can even buy one nowadays during a folk art market

On the other hand, perhaps Celtic or Germanic tribes had similar looking culture, too, that I am not aware of? (and that Gimbutas being allegedly nationalistic is not demonstrating )

Do you perhaps know of any relating to Pomeranian archaeological findings ?

 

[zanipolo]

When I look at urns from Pomerania and Prussia I am rather persuaded by Gimbutas that Pomeranians were a Western Baltic tribe.

Fig. 18. Face-urns. Fifth century B.C. a, b, from eastern Pomerania near Danzig; c, from Samland

Fig. 28. a-d, Geometrically decorated Prussian urns from the fourth-third centuries B.C.; e, urn with “eyes”; f, pot within a dish filled with uncremated bird bones


Also, in the earlier picture at #15 there is a large spiral head pin which is also very typical for Baltics. I can even buy one nowadays during a folk art market

On the other hand, perhaps Celtic or Germanic tribes had similar looking culture, too, that I am not aware of? (and that Gimbutas being allegedly nationalistic is not demonstrating )

Do you perhaps know of any relating to Pomeranian archaeological findings ?

Is the term west-baltic appropriate for the pommerains as this ancient race had disappeared in the BC times, than again I found this

The Western Balts
>>>|||<<< ​

The Western Baltic dialect that later gave rise to the Sudovian, Galindian, Pomesanian, and various Prussian languages is one of the dialects of the Early-Western Baltic Area. The Coastal West Balts emerged as yet another dialect (Curonian language) of the Peripheral Early-West Baltic Area, near the bordering dialects of the Central Early-East Baltic language area. The Western Balts were a polyethnic hybrid mix of Funnel Beaker, Globular Amphora, and Corded Ware Satem peoples on a Neolithic Nemunas and Narva substratum population. Thus, the Western Balts should include the Sudovians ( Яцьвягі ), Galindians, Pomesanians, and various Prussians, and also the Curonians, the former comprising the Southern group, and the latter, the Coastal Northern group. This explains the close similarity between Sudovian ( Yotvingian ), Galindian, Pomesanian, and Prussian. A successful modern revival of the Prussian language is now known as New Prussian. A link to their Prussian language website is provided below.

The Old Prussian Sembian dialect, though, exhibits a prolonged influence from the nearby Curonians when compared to the more distant Pomesanian or Sudovian. The Sembian dialect of the Old Prussian Catechisms has "muti, tawas" (mother, father) whereas the Pomesanian of the Elbing Vocabulary has "mothe, towis". The chronicled Sudovian "Occopirmus" similarly differs from the Catechism Sembian "ucka-". Farther inland away from coast and Curonians, we do find Prussian "Tlokunpelk" - Bears' Marsh. Galindian did not historically border the Curonians, and was close to Sudovian in many respects.​

http://www.suduva.com/virdainas/proto.htm

This was an old - prussian dialect


notice the tribes in this link​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians

By the way - the sklavains where prussians .......hmmm .............i thought that was a slav terminology

 

[Haganus]

Who did read Jurgen Udolph's book "Namentkuendliche Studien der Germanen"?
It deals with the origin and arise of the Germanic tribes. According to the author
the ancient author did not arise in Scandinavia, but in the Jastorf area (region
south of Bremen-Hambourg-Hannover-Magdeburg till Thuringia and Westphalia).
It is not possible to make a clear frontier till the eastern part. Probably the most
ancient Germanic tribes did not live more east of Berlin.
So I did not understand that the ancestors of the Germanic tribes lived in the
the area of the Lusatians.

 

[Taranis]

When I look at urns from Pomerania and Prussia I am rather persuaded by Gimbutas that Pomeranians were a Western Baltic tribe.

Fig. 18. Face-urns. Fifth century B.C. a, b, from eastern Pomerania near Danzig; c, from Samland

Fig. 28. a-d, Geometrically decorated Prussian urns from the fourth-third centuries B.C.; e, urn with “eyes”; f, pot within a dish filled with uncremated bird bones


Also, in the earlier picture at #15 there is a large spiral head pin which is also very typical for Baltics. I can even buy one nowadays during a folk art market

On the other hand, perhaps Celtic or Germanic tribes had similar looking culture, too, that I am not aware of? (and that Gimbutas being allegedly nationalistic is not demonstrating )

Do you perhaps know of any relating to Pomeranian archaeological findings ?

Hmm... I don't like to play devil's advocate, but you might want to take a look at urns of the (Pre-Etruscan) Villanovan Culture from Italy, which is also an Urnfield offshot archaeologically speaking. They don't look that different, either.

Regarding Gimbutas, what I know about her in regard for being biased has nothing to do with "nationalism", but with feminism: in some of her later books (I think, written in the decade before her death) she argued that the Neolithic population of Europe was matriarchial and monotheistic, worshipping a single mother goddess, and this only changed with the arrival of the Indo-Europeans, who introduced a patriarchial society. Needless to say, this appears very far-fetched. :startled:

Anyways, I think that there's another compelling linguistic argument, in my opinion, that the Pommeranian Culture cannot have been Baltic or Slavic. Based on the attestation of Indo-Iranic, it stands to reason that the Centum-Satem split occured before the 2nd millennium BC. In my opinion, if a Baltic language had been spoken in the area of the Lusatian/Pommeranian Cultures, there should be some borrowing of Satem languages into Gothic.

I think that the people of the Pommeranian Culture spoke a Centum-IE language, but I also think it's verymuch impossible to narrow it further down than that. There are borrowings from Centum languages (which aren't identifiably Germanic) into Baltic and Slavic, suggesting that they were in contact with some centum language.

The major Proto-Germanic sound shifts definitely occured after 500 BC, probably even as late as the 1st century BC to 1st century AD, meaning that before that time we're talking about a "Pre-Germanic" language stage. For those who don't remember, I elaborated that in this thread.

 

[Dagne]

Yes, indeed, Taranis, the urns from Villanovan Culture in Italy do look similar in style!
And about Gimbutas, too, I also believed that her theories about matriarchal Europe are too far fetching, but the rest sounds reasonable.

The language split argument is a very serious one, too.

So overall, you have persuaded me that Pomeranians may have spoken a Centum IE language.

 

[Taranis]

Yes, indeed, Taranis, the urns from Villanovan Culture in Italy do look similar in style!
And about Gimbutas, too, I also believed that her theories about matriarchal Europe are too far fetching, but the rest sounds reasonable.

Well, I have a healthy dose of respect for Gimbutas for laying out a solid foundation in regard for the Kurgan hypothesis, and I also respect feminism, but what the lady did in her late years was essentially fantasy. :useless:

The language split argument is a very serious one, too.

Well, the caveat might be that that Satemization did occur independently in various branches of IE, but given how this innovation appears to really be a large areal effect occuring near the (presumed) Indo-European coreland, and that the various outlying branches (Italo-Celtic, Germanic, Greek and Tocharian) were not affected by it, it seems plausible that the shift did indeed occur simultaneously in Armenian, Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranic. In so far, I think that the argument is valid.

So overall, you have persuaded me that Pomeranians may have spoken a Centum IE language.

Well, I wanted to shed a tad more light onto the situation regarding Baltic later (especially the Baltic/Slavic relationship/splitup, and the possibility of narrowing the situation down further and refining things), but I'm currently drawn into other issues so this unfortunately will have to wait. I promise you however, I will get back to that.

 

[zanipolo]

Hmm... I don't like to play devil's advocate, but you might want to take a look at urns of the (Pre-Etruscan) Villanovan Culture from Italy, which is also an Urnfield offshot archaeologically speaking. They don't look that different, either.

Regarding Gimbutas, what I know about her in regard for being biased has nothing to do with "nationalism", but with feminism: in some of her later books (I think, written in the decade before her death) she argued that the Neolithic population of Europe was matriarchial and monotheistic, worshipping a single mother goddess, and this only changed with the arrival of the Indo-Europeans, who introduced a patriarchial society. Needless to say, this appears very far-fetched. :startled:

Anyways, I think that there's another compelling linguistic argument, in my opinion, that the Pommeranian Culture cannot have been Baltic or Slavic. Based on the attestation of Indo-Iranic, it stands to reason that the Centum-Satem split occured before the 2nd millennium BC. In my opinion, if a Baltic language had been spoken in the area of the Lusatian/Pommeranian Cultures, there should be some borrowing of Satem languages into Gothic.

I think that the people of the Pommeranian Culture spoke a Centum-IE language, but I also think it's verymuch impossible to narrow it further down than that. There are borrowings from Centum languages (which aren't identifiably Germanic) into Baltic and Slavic, suggesting that they were in contact with some centum language.

The major Proto-Germanic sound shifts definitely occured after 500 BC, probably even as late as the 1st century BC to 1st century AD, meaning that before that time we're talking about a "Pre-Germanic" language stage. For those who don't remember, I elaborated that in this thread.

In most pagan religions in Europe , the god was a goddess representing fertility of the people and nature. Modern religions moved away from the female dominating the " prayers" of the populace.

In regards to the pommerians, I still conclude after further searching , that they where a gothic race in BC times , the language was east-germanic . The culture originally was nordic bronze culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germanic_languages

I also , might partly agree with this below
http://lituani.com/Guthones.pdf

 

[Dagne]

In most pagan religions in Europe , the god was a goddess representing fertility of the people and nature. Modern religions moved away from the female dominating the " prayers" of the populace.

In regards to the pommerians, I still conclude after further searching , that they where a gothic race in BC times , the language was east-germanic . The culture originally was nordic bronze culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germanic_languages

I also , might partly agree with this below
http://lituani.com/Guthones.pdf

The last link about Goths being Aesti/Baltic rather than Germanic tribe is not really serious. I can only speculate that this article was published in 1929 when Lithuanians were struggling hard to establish the national state and thus some authors were ready to claim anything to boost national morale.

 

[Dagne]

Well I think we more or less agreed who were Pomeranians, right?

But now I am curious about the Villanovan culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villanovan_culture

How come their urns are so similar to Pomeranian and Prussian urns. According to Wiki their origins are both Celtic and Italic, but their urns are similar to Germanic and Baltic urns (of later period though).
Or the reason for this similarity is about timing - the Villanovan culture being much earlier in time and carrying proto-features of all Baltic, Germanic, Celtic and Italic tribes?

Any ideas?

 

[zanipolo]

Well I think we more or less agreed who were Pomeranians, right?

But now I am curious about the Villanovan culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villanovan_culture

How come their urns are so similar to Pomeranian and Prussian urns. According to Wiki their origins are both Celtic and Italic, but their urns are similar to Germanic and Baltic urns (of later period though).
Or the reason for this similarity is about timing - the Villanovan culture being much earlier in time and carrying proto-features of all Baltic, Germanic, Celtic and Italic tribes?

Any ideas?

Trade, because of the amber road. you need urns to carry goods for certain things.

In regards to urns, the venetic use was for cremation for family members, so each memeber that died was cremated and ashes placed in same Urn. this urn was wrapped in cloth and stored for another member to die. it would be passed down from generation to generation........does this happen with the baltic area

 

[zdenek von reslaw]

can you supply a link to this information on the bastarnaes , because all I found was that they where germanic of celtic origin

On the net it´s mostly from wikipedia + some other websites that I got the informations: the area of Dacia/ Thrace as the place of their stay, all other whereabouts before that time uncertain.
In a commentary to Titus Livius´Ab urbe condita, that I read, there are some suppositions of their origin, like illyrian ( because of the similarity of customs ),
of course also celtic and germanic ones.
I think now, the illyrian guess was not so good :disappointed:

 

[zdenek von reslaw]

[

QUOTE=Taranis;371942]Genetics shouldn't be overestimated either, however. People can change their languages, but they cannot change their genes.

That´s what I meant, in this regard languages are secondary.

It should be noted that there's vocabulary which entered Balto-Slavic vocabulary which clearly Centum in origin (though *not* Germanic: I posted a thread in linguistics which shows East Germanic borrowings into Proto-Slavic), so it stands to reason in my opinion that the Centum/Satem line in the 1st millennium BC actually ran surprisingly eastwards. Just because people were predominantly (or, to a great share) R1a doesn't mean that they were Satem speakers. The (Proto-)Tocharians were certainly also predominantly R1a, but definitely spoke a Centum language.

No problem with that as long as the satem languages are regarded as central in the IE-group - and these are clearly the branches of Balto-Slav and Indo-Iranian languages. There were also other IE languages that due to their early separation from the nucleus kept the older position of centum, no matter if R1a or R1b.

Well, first off, let us get the chronology correct here: the Lusatian Culture spans the late bronze age into the early iron age. This is obviously too early to speak of "Germanic" languages, even Proto-Germanic, it is far more likely that we are talking about a Pre-Germanic language stage here (the ancestor language of Germanic before the major sound shifts).

It´s allright if you speak of a Pre-Germanic language stage in the area where later was Jastorf culture; speaking of a Pre-Germanic stage in the area of the Lusatian culture would be not scientific. Germanic is clearly a periphery branch of the IE in linguistic and antropological sense. There is of course a considerable % of R-haplogroups, ( e.g.
Norway, where around one third of the males are R1a ) but the population of north west Europe is in a sense “old european”. In this regard, looking from the IE core area, it has a position similar to that of Aquitaine, Sardinia or Greece, which was already mentioned on this forum.

Regarding the Bastarnae, it's the first time I have seen anybody claim that they were "Thraco-Illyrian". There is no Thracian or Illyrian name influence that far north. Tacitus explicitly refers to them as Germanic (as opposed to the Venedi and the Fenni, which he explicitly says did not speak Germanic), though other authors refer to their language as 'similar to Celtic'

Concerning Bastarnae whatever their origin was, in their reliable later history it was a multiethnic community. As can be seen in Tacitus`Germania ( I haven´t got it at hand ) the author wasn´t sure how to classify Fenni, Venedi and Peucini ( a branch
of Bastarnae ), but I may be wrong.

HOWEVER, the former area of the Lusatian Culture was very clearly inhabited by Germanic peoples about 500 years later.

It is generally accepted that the area was inhabited by Germanic people around the beginning of the Christian era.
To this some considerations: the presence of germanic peoples in this area before that epoch is unlikely although the possibility shouldn´t be excluded. The area wasn´t empty when the germanic peoples arrived, there was aboriginal population living there. ( Of course it´s obvious but worth mentioning
The arriving tribes had “wandering” character. By the way, recently the connection of the Goths with the Wielbark culture is being questioned.

The Przeworsk Culture, which succeeded a small part of the area formerly encompassed by the Lusatian and Pommeranian Cultures, was clearly associated with the Burgundians and the Lugians.

The Lugians were probably originally not a Germanic people. There is an interesting coincidence, which was already spoken about in this thread, with the slavic Lusatians ( Sorbs ). E.g. Lug - Luzica ( z spoken like french j ). Both lived/ live in about the same area, the Lugians aparently could have moved later further west.

 

[zanipolo]

On the net it´s mostly from wikipedia + some other websites that I got the informations: the area of Dacia/ Thrace as the place of their stay, all other whereabouts before that time uncertain.
In a commentary to Titus Livius´Ab urbe condita, that I read, there are some suppositions of their origin, like illyrian ( because of the similarity of customs ),
of course also celtic and germanic ones.
I think now, the illyrian guess was not so good :disappointed:

I am only dealing with a timeframe of 1000Bc - 200AD for the pommerains, I stand by my findings that they where gothic.

In regards to the bastanae ( peucini are same tribe) , they where germanic and they had a lot of land ( basically central poland and the ukraine) , north of them was the Fenni ( established as a finnic tribe), west of the fenni on the baltic sea was the aestii ( finnic or baltic tribe ) , west of them the venedi ( baltic , finnic or gothic ), and west of them was pommeria ( gothic)

The bastanae did neighbour the dacians and the illyrians on the danube river , but i think they where called something else at that time of 700BC

In regards to naming of tribes,
The Romans named every tribe that they did not know who where near the carpathains mountains as sarmatians as this is what the Roman called the carthpathian mountains ( sarmathain montes)

Its odd that Plinius in his writings has a commer seperating the Samatis and venedi
"Nec minor opinione Eningia. Quidam haec habitari ad Vistulam a Sarmatis, Venedis, Sciris, Hirris, tradunt". ----- Plinius, IV. 27.

BTW, the Hirris are the Heruli tribe ( gothic tribe from pommern), western neighbours of the venedi on the baltic coast

 

[zanipolo]

The last link about Goths being Aesti/Baltic rather than Germanic tribe is not really serious. I can only speculate that this article was published in 1929 when Lithuanians were struggling hard to establish the national state and thus some authors were ready to claim anything to boost national morale.

I agree about the aestii where not gothic , but baltic or finnic..........they are the modern estonians from what I could find.

 

[Dagne]

In regards to urns, the venetic use was for cremation for family members, so each memeber that died was cremated and ashes placed in same Urn. this urn was wrapped in cloth and stored for another member to die. it would be passed down from generation to generation........does this happen with the baltic area

Hmm, I am not sure about passing urns down from generation to generation...
The urns were place in stone cists - family graves,
Fig. 26. Urns in stone cists — “family graves”. Fourth century B.C.; a, from Silesia; b, from eastern Pomerania

And each urn had to be tailored individually - it was believed that the deceased continues in his exact image and retains all his characteristics. The urns were never a repetition of the same human features or ornamens - female urns had with clay necklaces, earrings made of bronze spirals or rings on which were suspended glass or amber beads. Male urns were decorate with symbolic schenes...

Thinking of it - one must have achieved something in this life if he had his decorated in symbolis schene :cool-v:

Urns (a, b) and urns standing in a stone-cist family grave (c), from the third–second centuries B.C. Samland

There is a believe that the Baltic vėlės — etherealizations of the deceased — go to live their family and village community lives, to “a sandy hill, a hill of vėlės,” where they have their houses or chambers, tables and walls, and where they are covered with linen cloths. The “hill of vėlės” has gates through which the tides enter, and benches on which they sit, and these features recur in descriptions of the after-life in Latvian and Lithuanian folk poetry. The verses would seem to have preserved the image of the ancient burial mounds, the wooden chambers or stone cists. Many passages in the Latvian folk songs speak of a cemetery on a small sandy hill, often so full of graves that there is no more room for new arrivals.

Gimbutiene has a really nice description http://www.vaidilute.com/books/gimbutas/gimbutas-08.html p. 190 how vėlės have to travel via Milky Way to Dausos which is a mixture of heaven and parradise

And also it is believed that siela(which is related to greek psyche or pneuma) reincarnates to trees, flowers, birds and it is even nowadays believed it is not ok to cut trees in a cementary ...

 

[zanipolo]

Hmm, I am not sure about passing urns down from generation to generation...
The urns were place in stone cists - family graves,
Fig. 26. Urns in stone cists — “family graves”. Fourth century B.C.; a, from Silesia; b, from eastern Pomerania

And each urn had to be tailored individually - it was believed that the deceased continues in his exact image and retains all his characteristics. The urns were never a repetition of the same human features or ornamens - female urns had with clay necklaces, earrings made of bronze spirals or rings on which were suspended glass or amber beads. Male urns were decorate with symbolic schenes...

Thinking of it - one must have achieved something in this life if he had his decorated in symbolis schene :cool-v:

Urns (a, b) and urns standing in a stone-cist family grave (c), from the third–second centuries B.C. Samland

There is a believe that the Baltic vėlės — etherealizations of the deceased — go to live their family and village community lives, to “a sandy hill, a hill of vėlės,” where they have their houses or chambers, tables and walls, and where they are covered with linen cloths. The “hill of vėlės” has gates through which the tides enter, and benches on which they sit, and these features recur in descriptions of the after-life in Latvian and Lithuanian folk poetry. The verses would seem to have preserved the image of the ancient burial mounds, the wooden chambers or stone cists. Many passages in the Latvian folk songs speak of a cemetery on a small sandy hill, often so full of graves that there is no more room for new arrivals.

Gimbutiene has a really nice description http://www.vaidilute.com/books/gimbutas/gimbutas-08.html p. 190 how vėlės have to travel via Milky Way to Dausos which is a mixture of heaven and parradise

And also it is believed that siela(which is related to greek psyche or pneuma) reincarnates to trees, flowers, birds and it is even nowadays believed it is not ok to cut trees in a cementary ...

this is the venetic urn procedure
http://www.nesat.org/abstracts/poster_perego.pdf

i wanted to know if the baltic was similar.

As you know there is only venetic culture in the adriatic, the baltic was nordic bronze age, then other cultures after that

 

[Dagne]

"The urn may have been conceived as a symbol of the deceased him/herself, or a surrogate of his/her body" - this much is true for the baltic, but if the fabric was used - I don't remember it being mentioned. I am afraid that there weren't any "sophisticated micro-excavation techniques which could have permitted the identification of textile in the form of burned fragments, mineralised remains, yarn and even imprints on objects and mud"...

So I guess that the creamation may be similar, but do you have any pictures of how it all looked in the Adriatic? I like seeing things instead of just reading about them

 

[Taranis]

I'm kind of distracted at the moments, there's quite a number of posts which I would love to address, but that will have to wait. There is however one specific question I'd like to ask you Dagne: when/how does iron-working arrive in the Baltic (that is, the Baltic proper, not the former Pommeranian area), and from where?

 

[Dagne]

early iron age (V BC- I AD)
old iron age (I-IV a.)
middle iron age (V-IX a.)

As much as I understand the real start of iron use was starting with 100 AD

And why do you ask, Tarani? (Taranis - Nominative, Tarani - Vocative), the Celts must have used name this way, too

 

[Taranis]

early iron age (V BC- I AD)
old iron age (I-IV a.)
middle iron age (V-IX a.)

As much as I understand the real start of iron use was starting with 100 AD

Interesting.

And why do you ask, Tarani? (Taranis - Nominative, Tarani - Vocative), the Celts must have used name this way, too

Yes, this is correct, at least in Gaulish. :grin:
(I can't say about Celtiberian, for instance, since the vocative is unattested in Celtiberian)

I primarily ask because I wonder on the origin of the Baltic/Slavic word for "iron". At first glance it would seem that apparently iron-working arrived with the Balts/Slavs from a different source than the Celtic Hallstatt Culture (conversely, the Proto-Germanic Jastorf Culture clearly adopted iron-working from Hallstatt, and as a result the word for "iron" in the Germanic languages is the same as the one in the Celtic languages).