Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

[Bodin]

I mean change of scythian/sarmatian religion to slavic paganism, not the same. sorry for the confusion there and change of their languages to slavic language.
On the genetics page on the main site it states hap I originated in the balkans, I2a2 originated in balkans, highest diversity of I subclades in balkans, highest percentage of I2a2 in balkans. do see what makes me think it is indigenous to the region?

of course turcs have some R1a they descend from scythians too. of course there could some turkic R1a in russia, never said there wasn't I'm saying theres very little turkish contribution to the gene pool and you are acting like they are 90% turkic blood, I'm saying turkic contribution is no more then %5 if that. think of this nomadic tribes take slave wives, the children are raised up as the children of those conquerers there language and culture, religfion, identity etc is that of their father not their slave mother. they become turks.
same with ottoman empire, the halfbreed children are not left in the slave gene pool, they are absorbed by the conquering gene pool, especially with islam as they were trying to spread their religion. with nomadic tengriists armies are predominantly men, theres no need to bring women with them, in fact bringing women with a horse riding army would slow it down. turks followed their scythian roots, their armies were built for speed. there is no need to bring women on campaign because you can easily take wives of those you conquer

I'm saying smaller scale then you implyed
the conquerors were vastly outnumbered by the locals but kept them in place by fear
their modern day descendants are the turc minorities of russia, they still speak turkic languages

have you ever read about the kievan-rus? and the migration to moscow forest region out of the steppes by many russians? this was to get away from turkic dominance
sviatoslav that expelled the khazars from ukraine did it by slavic revolt as slavs vastly outnumbered them

also when you as a conqueror take an area and are outnumbered by locals, immediately after conquest there is going to be rape and pillage by victorious soldiers thats common sense but you cannot do that for years on end or you will have a massive revolt overnight. foreign occupations are always cruel but it is mostly slave labor, unfair taxes/tribute and kidnapping a few women here and there not all out raping the entire population, if you did that you would cause a massive revolt instantly.
]

the huns same thing, they were a ruling class. most of their armies were germans, even sarmatians (jaszones of hungary) and vastly outnumbered by pannonians, same with avars massively outnumbered by slavs

Where is the proof that Serbs ever had practiced Slavic paganism ? Also Slavs use to worship a great number of Sarmatian gods Voden , Morava , Simargl , Dajbog , Svantovit , Jarovit , Hors ,...
There is highest diversity of R1a in Bosnia it doesnt imply all Slavs are from Bosnia , high diversity may imply that there was a lot of diferent nations in that aeria and multiple colonizing waves .
On Altay mountin prevailing haplogroup is R1a that show YCA II a,b of 19,21 , whit some Q and K2 ,and Altay is where all Turks came from , Slavic R1a is showing YCA II a,b of 19,23 ( like most of European R1a ) . I believe there is atleast 15% of Turk R1a in Russians ( not whole state but only ortodox , Slavic speaking Rus ) - there were : Huns , Khazars , Bulgars( not shore they are Turks) , Pechenegs , Kutrigurs , Utrigurs , Kumans ( they were probably mostly J2 from Khorazm like 1. wave of Avars ) , Tatars/ Mongols , Uzi , Saraguri , Sabiri , ... Thats a lot of Turkic genes . Thanks for answering , I believe you havent told me which haplogroups you consider to be on Balkans before Hunic invasions on Europe , please do .

 

[Dorianfinder]

Where is the proof that Serbs ever had practiced Slavic paganism ? Also Slavs use to worship a great number of Sarmatian gods Voden , Morava , Simargl , Dajbog , Svantovit , Jarovit , Hors ,...
There is highest diversity of R1a in Bosnia it doesnt imply all Slavs are from Bosnia , high diversity may imply that there was a lot of diferent nations in that aeria and multiple colonizing waves .
On Altay mountin prevailing haplogroup is R1a that show YCA II a,b of 19,21 , whit some Q and K2 ,and Altay is where all Turks came from , Slavic R1a is showing YCA II a,b of 19,23 ( like most of European R1a ) . I believe there is atleast 15% of Turk R1a in Russians ( not whole state but only ortodox , Slavic speaking Rus ) - there were : Huns , Khazars , Bulgars( not shore they are Turks) , Pechenegs , Kutrigurs , Utrigurs , Kumans ( they were probably mostly J2 from Khorazm like 1. wave of Avars ) , Tatars/ Mongols , Uzi , Saraguri , Sabiri , ... Thats a lot of Turkic genes . Thanks for answering , I believe you havent told me which haplogroups you consider to be on Balkans before Hunic invasions on Europe , please do .

@ Bodin

What are the main haplogroups found among the locals of modern region where ancient Sarmatia was located?

 

[Bodin]

So, If I understand you correctly, you say, that I2a2 was broughrt into the illyrian areas by the sarmatians and slavs. If this is the case and there is very little Haplo E1b1 in illyrian areas north of Montenegro, then are you saying that that R1a was there in northern illyria in the bronze and iron age ?
It cannot be G2a as it is small in number plus it is in the alps.

With noricum having R1b due to the gallic tribes and north of the danube I1 because of east germanic tribes, then what could pannonia be ?

it seems strange that the slavs brought I2a , when east germanic tribes passed first

Yes I am saying that I2a2 is brought mainly by Sarmatians , and in smaller percentage by Slavs and Goths ( both Visi and OstroGoths) due their contacts with Saramatians on north bank of Black see . Yes there was R1a in Illyria and Panonia during bronze age , like there was R1a in today Czech republic and east Germany long before ariving of Slavs it is found in ancient graves from that time . There is 20% of E1b1b in Bosnia , aldo some maybe due to moving of Serbs from Serbia to Bosanska Krajina .
Again Slavs brought only small percent of I2a2 , most of it is brought by Sarmatian - non Slavic tribes( there was some Slavic genes but mostly not) Serbs and Croats , east Germans - Gots brought part of I2a2 but they only could received it from Sarmatians , because there is no I2a2 in Getalanda in south Sweden from where they cross to Vistula and then to Black see . Gotic contribution to Serbs and Croats is about 7% of I1 and some of R1a

 

[Bodin]

@ Bodin

What are the main haplogroups found among the locals of modern region where ancient Sarmatia was located?

North of Caucasus -Sarmatia untill II century AD there is strong I2a2 in some aerias of North Ossetia:: Digora 13% , Ardon 32% , Zil ga 0%, Zamankul 0% , Alagir 0% ,; there is also strong K2 Digora 0% , Ardon 7% , Zil ga 13% , Zamankul 21,7% , Alagir 8,3%( from Turks) . Strongest is the G 21-74% but that is the case in whole Caucasus ( race of goatbriders , populate all high mountins ) , G is probably Meotian and Colhidian.
South Ukraine - Sarmatia since II century AD : I2a2 12% ( whole Ukraine )
About Kazahstan where Alans were I couldnt find data , help me if you can , but that aeria was devastated by Mongolians , and I would espect most of them to be descendants of Gingis kan C3 and Turkic R1a .

 

[Bodin]

Yes, and as I said, Haplogroup I as a whole is the best candidate thus far for an "aboriginal" European Haplogroup. That we find both G2a and I2a in the Neolithic site in France should not be surprising since we can expect the Neolithic farmers and the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers to have intermingled with each other. What also should be added, at least if I remember correctly, is that I2a in that site is actually I2a1 (the "Basque-Sardinian" if you will Haplogroup, and not the I2a2 found on the Balkans.

Also, given it's age, I would refrain from making any connections with the Serbians, even if today they have the Haplogroup in sizable quantities. It's very clear that I2a predates the ethnogenesis of the Serbians, it's also clear that I2a predates the emergence of the Proto-Slavs, and it's likely that it also predates the arrival of Indo-Europeans in Europe (at least in that area) in the first place.



Yes, the absence of Haplogroup E in Neolithic sites was quite a surprise and there is no satifying explanation for this yet.

Abscence of E in Neolithick sites in France - E haplogroup is weak in France even today 7% - after moving of Roman soldiers from Balkans , North Africa and Near East , and Greek colonies like Massalia .
That I2a in Sardinia is probably most Vandal , and Tacitus say Vandals were oldest population of Germany , so it wouldnt be souprice that some of them moved to France during Neolite , maybe not under the name of Vandals. Most of found DNA was G and today in France G is 5% that say a lot about population exchange since Neolite I believe that graves was from IV millenium BC maybe even younger ?
I believe aboriginal-Paleolitic Europeans were R1b ( some parts of it are from east ) , because only non Indoeuropean speacking population of Europe are Basque ( Esqudi ) , and they have 86% of R1b , ofcourse there is also 9% of I2a2 but I believ it is Alano-Vandalic. Germans try to present R1b like more Indoeuropean , because they are mostly R1b , sorry Russians are more Indoeuropean - Aryan then you are .-joke( dont hate me)

 

[Taranis]

Abscence of E in Neolithick sites in France - E haplogroup is weak in France even today 7% - after moving of Roman soldiers from Balkans , North Africa and Near East , and Greek colonies like Massalia .

Well, it's entirely. possible that it arrived only with the Greek and Romans in modern-day France.

That I2a in Sardinia is probably most Vandal , and Tacitus say Vandals were oldest population of Germany , so it wouldnt be souprice that some of them moved to France during Neolite , maybe not under the name of Vandals. Most of found DNA was G and today in France G is 5% that say a lot about population exchange since Neolite I believe that graves was from IV millenium BC maybe even younger ?

Why should be I2a in Sardinia Vandal? The Vandals originally lived in approximately the area modern-day western Poland, and area where I2a1 is virtually absent. Sorry, but the Neolithic almost certainly predates the ethnogenesis of the Vandals, even the ethnogenesis of the Germanic peoples as a whole by several thousand years. There is no way this would work out. Also consider that the Vandals were in Sardinia for less than a century. It is more likely that Sardinian I2a originates from the indigenous Nuraghic civilization.

By the way, regarding Tacitus, just because he says the names are indigenous and older than the (exonym) "Germani" doesn't mean that they go back into the bronze age or Neolithic. That just makes no sense.

I believe aboriginal-Paleolitic Europeans were R1b ( some parts of it are from east ) , because only non Indoeuropean speacking population of Europe are Basque ( Esqudi ) , and they have 86% of R1b , ofcourse there is also 9% of I2a2 but I believ it is Alano-Vandalic.

The idea that R1b is Paleolithic to Europe was popularized in the early 2000s, but it has been decisively debunked for a variety of reasons: the first reason is that all ancient clades of R1b are solely found outside of Europe, and secondly that western European R1b is solely of the subclade M-269. If R1b originated in Europe, all the ancient clades should be also found there.

Since circa 2008, the general consensus is that R1b arrived in Europe in the Neolithic or later. In that context, you might want to check out this paper. The failure to find R1b in Neolithic sites suggests that indeed R1b must have entered Europe even later, either in the Copper Age or possibly as late as the Bronze Age.

Regarding I2a2, I completely fail to see how this could be "Alando-Vandalic". In particular, I2a2 has been found in the Neolithic site of Treilles, France thereby it should be obvious that it has been there since at least the Neolithic.

Mind you, the site in Treilles today some ~80% of the population are R1b. That there is 0% R1b in the Neolithic sample should tell you something.

Germans try to present R1b like more Indoeuropean , because they are mostly R1b , sorry Russians are more Indoeuropean - Aryan then you are .-joke( dont hate me)

Well, I don't think that R1b was the original Haplogroup of the Proto-Indo-Europeans (for reasons described above), but given the late date it entered, it is certainly plausible to assume it is associated with the spread of the western branches of the Indo-European languages.

Regarding the Basques, first off, they are not the only non-Indo-European peoples in Europe (what about Uralic peoples like the Finns, Estonians and Hungarians? Though the Hungarians only migrated to their present-day position in the 9th century AD), and seconldy they never were. On the ancient Iberian penninsula there was also the Iberian language, which was not necessarily related with Basque, as was the Tartessian language. Otherwise, I agree it's hard to explain how they come to have almost 90% R1b: the two most obvious scenarios are that either the Basques aren't native to western Europe, or that a foreign (patrilineal) elite placed themselves amongst the Basques and R1b became dominant through polygamy.

 

[Dorianfinder]

North of Caucasus -Sarmatia untill II century AD there is strong I2a2 in some aerias of North Ossetia:: Digora 13% , Ardon 32% , Zil ga 0%, Zamankul 0% , Alagir 0% ,; there is also strong K2 Digora 0% , Ardon 7% , Zil ga 13% , Zamankul 21,7% , Alagir 8,3%( from Turks) . Strongest is the G 21-74% but that is the case in whole Caucasus ( race of goatbriders , populate all high mountins ) , G is probably Meotian and Colhidian.
South Ukraine - Sarmatia since II century AD : I2a2 12% ( whole Ukraine )
About Kazahstan where Alans were I couldnt find data , help me if you can , but that aeria was devastated by Mongolians , and I would espect most of them to be descendants of Gingis kan C3 and Turkic R1a .

What about the Ukraine and it's extremely high frequency of Slavic R1a? Similar to Slovenia, Russia and Poland.

Sarmatian DNA was likely composed of R1a (40-50%), I (5-10%), G (5-10%) and less E, J and N. The G was concentrated in the East (Caucasus) and the I in the West (Border with Balkans). The very low levels of G in Serbians suggests they were already in the Balkans.

Rebala K et al. (2007), Y-STR variation among Slavs: evidence for the Slavic homeland in the middle Dnieper basin, Journal of Human Genetics, 52:406-14

[re-post]
If you cannot agree what constitutes a Serbian marker then it is because the Serbian population is similar to the Bosniacs and the Croats with all having elevated I2 but different amounts of Slavic R1a, J2 and R1b.

Croats having nearly 30% R1a, and Bosniacs and Serbs have around 15% R1a.
Bosnians and Serbs have about twice as much J2 than the Croat population.
Croats and Serbs have about twice as much R1b than the Bosnian population.

In summation (besides elevated I2):
- Serbians have more J2 and R1b but less Slavic R1a.
- Croats have more R1a and R1b but less J2.
- Bosnians have more J2 and less R1a and R1b.

 

[Milovan]

How do you know that they are your ancestors? Did you make a gene test? Besides, it is by no means clear which one was the "original" Indo-European Y-Haplogroup, or if there even originally was just one to begin with (entirely possible it was not). Of course you might argue that R1a is the best candidate for the original Haplogroup, but the fact that R1a is relatively in Western Europe shows how difficult that is.

First off, the Celtic-speaking peoples never were a homogenous ethnic group, and they certainly didn't consider themselves "Aryans", and they did not all consider themselves "Celts" either. Also, as I said most of western Europe is R1b, and if R1a is the original Indo-European marker then it's very clear that the Celtic peoples are not descended from the original Indo-Europeans.

Also, the idea that the swastika was an "Aryan" symbol is complete nonsense because it appears in various different cultures, many of which are non-Indo-European, including Native Americans and Etruscans.

No, you're not supposed to "please" me in any way. But I'm trying to point out all along that your view is completely ignorant of a lot of facts and problems, and I am off the impression that you intentially want to get a number of issues very wrong because they do not fit into your own world view.

it's debatable as to who the etruscans were, there's not enough info to say what they were really. fact- they did have aryan neighbors and later on were absorbed by them, their art also looks very greek, so there must have been some greek influence coming up from southern italy.
what makes you think only R1a is aryan and not all hap R period? you go far enough back in time of course the language and culture would not be developed yet if thats your argument, but everywhere there is R1a there is also R1b usually in smaller proportions, there is R1b in central asia and india. I believe tocharians were R1b predominantly and they were aryan. as far as R* or R2 it is only present in india in the same places as R1a and a little R1b. as far as I know the only non aryan speaking R1b areas are basque country and african R1b like in cameroon. if you look at all R1b areas all but a few minor exceptions are aryan speakers.

both R1b and R1a were in the steppes and central asia, I believe one branch of R1b was on the russian steppes and the R1a was on the eastern part of the steppes with a little R1b mixed in with them. this western tribe carrying R1b went west in 2 waves (see below for my theory on that) before R1a moved in to the russian steppe. I believe cimmerians were predominantly R1b and were the last R1b people to stay in the steppes.

if an aryan tribe did invade africa and kept moving south over time they would of course be absorbed by africans, that's just common sense and what I believe happened. why no metal workings or typical art from them, it depends on the time frame. like I said before you go back far enough culture is less developed. being absorbed they lost what would have been their language.
basque R1b- basques have a lot of R1b and a version of the swastika even though they have a different name for it. who's to say there was only one R1b migration into europe (pre celts)? everywhere R1b is present in europe except basque country there is caucasus blood with it (look at dodecad charts). this to me, means there was 2 migrations of R1b at separate times, 1 pure R1b that invaded basque country and possibly bringing that swastika with them, they could have lost their language and kept the old language, who knows? it is possible. the 2nd wave of R1b (pre celtic) having a little caucasus blood with it corresponding to hap g and the "west asian" (obviously caucasus, highest in georgians) component on dodecad charts (autosomal).
for the record I believe there was multiple migrations of caucasus peoples into europe as well, the one with the pre celts being only one of them.

I believe that all nations are a genetic cocktail of the indigenous and invasions, of all peoples that once inhabited said land. you referenced my "worldview", as far as genetics and ancestry is concerned that's it.

I also believe caucasus peoples were in mesopotamia/iran a long time ago, either migrating out of the caucasus or before they reached the caucasus one or the other.
they were obviously the majority of iran at one point in time, aryan tribes absorbed them. armenians and ossetians is a different story for their caucasus blood because they are in the caucasus itself (self explanatory). look at autosomal charts of india and iran, you will see the "west asian" caucasus component vastly outnumbers the "north european" (what I believe to be hap R peoples) aryan one. this I believe to be the basis for the caucasus aryan theories which I believe to be false, I believe the kurgan hypothesis.

 

[Bodin]

Well, it's entirely. possible that it arrived only with the Greek and Romans in modern-day France.



Why should be I2a in Sardinia Vandal? The Vandals originally lived in approximately the area modern-day western Poland, and area where I2a1 is virtually absent. Sorry, but the Neolithic almost certainly predates the ethnogenesis of the Vandals, even the ethnogenesis of the Germanic peoples as a whole by several thousand years. There is no way this would work out. Also consider that the Vandals were in Sardinia for less than a century. It is more likely that Sardinian I2a originates from the indigenous Nuraghic civilization.

By the way, regarding Tacitus, just because he says the names are indigenous and older than the (exonym) "Germani" doesn't mean that they go back into the bronze age or Neolithic. That just makes no sense.



The idea that R1b is Paleolithic to Europe was popularized in the early 2000s, but it has been decisively debunked for a variety of reasons: the first reason is that all ancient clades of R1b are solely found outside of Europe, and secondly that western European R1b is solely of the subclade M-269. If R1b originated in Europe, all the ancient clades should be also found there.

Since circa 2008, the general consensus is that R1b arrived in Europe in the Neolithic or later. In that context, you might want to check out this paper. The failure to find R1b in Neolithic sites suggests that indeed R1b must have entered Europe even later, either in the Copper Age or possibly as late as the Bronze Age.

Regarding I2a2, I completely fail to see how this could be "Alando-Vandalic". In particular, I2a2 has been found in the Neolithic site of Treilles, France thereby it should be obvious that it has been there since at least the Neolithic.

Mind you, the site in Treilles today some ~80% of the population are R1b. That there is 0% R1b in the Neolithic sample should tell you something.





Well, I don't think that R1b was the original Haplogroup of the Proto-Indo-Europeans (for reasons described above), but given the late date it entered, it is certainly plausible to assume it is associated with the spread of the western branches of the Indo-European languages.

Regarding the Basques, first off, they are not the only non-Indo-European peoples in Europe (what about Uralic peoples like the Finns, Estonians and Hungarians? Though the Hungarians only migrated to their present-day position in the 9th century AD), and seconldy they never were. On the ancient Iberian penninsula there was also the Iberian language, which was not necessarily related with Basque, as was the Tartessian language. Otherwise, I agree it's hard to explain how they come to have almost 90% R1b: the two most obvious scenarios are that either the Basques aren't native to western Europe, or that a foreign (patrilineal) elite placed themselves amongst the Basques and R1b became dominant through polygamy.

Findings in Treilles are from Neolithe and from first faze of it , when G haplogroup from Caucasus entered Europe , and most of DNA that was finded there was G , only few were I, and that I was I2a1 not I2a2 -Din
. Couldnt it be plausible that some I comed from Caucasus were it is present in Armenia together with G . Sample is to small to draw any conclusions. And why would you think there would be preserved paleolitic haplogroups on Balkans which is crossroad of civilisations ( entering point from Asia ) and not in France which is in corner from any movements of nations? Only R1a1a and R1b-M269 could be conected with Indoeuropean movement to Europe . R1b (M73 and V88 ) clearly predate Indoeuropean movement . R1b1b2- Basque haplogroup also predates IE movement, all of it subclades has emerged in Europe , which mean there was no recent movements. R-L23 is 12.000 years old and it is spreaded all over Euroasia.Distribution of R1b -strong on west , weak on east show it had moved from west to east. How did R1b crossed over midle Europe in souch great numbers without leaving any significant trail Rusia 6% , Ukraine 8% , Belarus 10% , Finland only 3,5% ( and up to 30% in Sweden and Norway).And still R1a that acompanied them left souch strong trail in Easter and Midle Europe . Did they have aeroplanes?You can turn question other way and ask yourself , if R1b realy camed in Europe together with R1a shouldnt there be more R1a in aerias where R1b is strongest :Spain ( 2% ) , Portugale ( 1,5% ) , Belgium (4%) , England ( 4,5%), France (2,5%) , Netherland (6%) ,Ireland (4%) , Scotland (4%) , Italia (2,5%) , Wales ( 3%) .
How do you explaining I2a2 in Kurds and Pastuni in Afganistan and Pakistan ? And very small percentage in Turkey 4% which conects Balkans with them , and most of it can be explained by moving of Serbs and Croats to Turkey like Yenichar army or by moving whole cities ( like population of Belgrade was moved to Istambul during XVI century , there is yet Belgrade mahala - quarter ).How do you explain that there is more I2a2 in newcomers -Croats and Serbs than in old populations like Romanians , Albanians ,Greeks ? Mesapi in Italy were descendants of Illyrians that crosed Adriatic see , why there is no I2a2 in they aerias - southern Italy ?
Sorry forgot about Finns and Ests , there is another paleolitical haplogroup N1c ( in Europe since 20.000 years ago ) , Hungarians speak Indoeuropean languague with 50 Uralic and 100 Altaic( Turkic) words .
I believe Iberians moved in Spain 1200 BC acording to Romans.
Thanks for answering .

 

[Bodin]

What about the Ukraine and it's extremely high frequency of Slavic R1a? Similar to Slovenia, Russia and Poland.

Sarmatian DNA was likely composed of R1a (40-50%), I (5-10%), G (5-10%) and less E, J and N. The G was concentrated in the East (Caucasus) and the I in the West (Border with Balkans). The very low levels of G in Serbians suggests they were already in the Balkans.

Rebala K et al. (2007), Y-STR variation among Slavs: evidence for the Slavic homeland in the middle Dnieper basin, Journal of Human Genetics, 52:406-14

[re-post]
If you cannot agree what constitutes a Serbian marker then it is because the Serbian population is similar to the Bosniacs and the Croats with all having elevated I2 but different amounts of Slavic R1a, J2 and R1b.

Croats having nearly 30% R1a, and Bosniacs and Serbs have around 15% R1a.
Bosnians and Serbs have about twice as much J2 than the Croat population.
Croats and Serbs have about twice as much R1b than the Bosnian population.

In summation (besides elevated I2):
- Serbians have more J2 and R1b but less Slavic R1a.
- Croats have more R1a and R1b but less J2.
- Bosnians have more J2 and less R1a and R1b.

Ukraine was olso settled by Slavs - thats why R1a is very high , most of Ukrainian I2a is on south ( that is why I said South Ukraine ) ,
and on Carpathians on the west were are the Rusini .
Why would Sarmatians have high G , they use to live in stepas ( low land ) north of Caucasus , and didnt mixed with G on mountin . Only later Ossetians moved on Caucasus ( Alania state in Midle Ages ) and mixed with G from Caucasus . If you exclude R1b, L , I1, I2b ,and most of R1a,E1b1b1, J2; G is not so low in Serbia.
If Serbs , Croats and Bosniacs are all Sarmatians by origin, or any other same origin , and they are of same origin, you shouldnt look what separates them - that would only show markers of diferent nations they mixed with , you should acctualy look simillarities if you want to know what they looked geneticaly in past times.
Serbians have more J2 and R1b because there is more old population in Serbia ( first settling aerias of Serbs and Croats were in Herzegovina , Dalmatia , Bosnia , southwest Serbia- state of Rascia , and Montenegro - aldo there was most old Illyro-Albanian tribes , and there is stronger E1b1b1 and J2 ) , other parts of Serbia were gradualy conquested up to XIII century , so there would be less of Serbian genes and more of genes of old Balkans .
Croats have more R1a because Slavonia is settled with Slavs (like name says) that have been brought by Avars to protect they borders. And higher R1b because there was lot more Celts in north parts of Balkans.
Bosnians have more J2 because: 1) there was Thracean tribe of Bessi who give name to Bosnia ( river ) around which they have lived , and state is called after the river , I believe Thraceans were mostly J2 - they comed from Asia Minor 2) Serbians from Serbia mooved in great numbers to west Bosnia ( Bosanska Krajina ) during XV and XVI century to fight for Turks like soldiers in status of Vlachs 3) it is recorded in Turkic defteri ( lists of population of an aeria , with informations about value of taxes they are due to pay ) , that Turks are brought certain number of tribes from Asia Minor to settle in Bosnia and serve like soldiers against Austria and Venice.

 

[Dorianfinder]

Ukraine was olso settled by Slavs - thats why R1a is very high

And so were the Balkans, the difference between the Slav population in the Balkans is more Slavic R1a as opposed to the Balkanic R1a.

Why would Sarmatians have high G , they use to live in stepas ( low land ) north of Caucasus , and didnt mixed with G on mountin .

The region has been influenced by the Caucasus and the Caucasus has the highest levels of G in the world. Which mountain?

G is not so low in Serbia.

What is the frequency of G in Serbia? There is more G in Greece and Germany.

If Serbs , Croats and Bosniacs are all Sarmatians by origin, or any other same origin, and they are of same origin, you shouldnt look what separates them - that would only show markers of diferent nations they mixed with , you should acctualy look simillarities if you want to know what they looked geneticaly in past times.

Do you always only look at the things you like or want to find. To learn what happened you need to understand the admixtures. An increase in R1b in Serbs and Croats relative to Bosniacs is very relevant. Do you want to make them exactly the same?

The Croats have 2x more R1a! This is the Slavic R1a and suggests possible diffusion from Croat into the Serb and Bosniac population, pushing R1a higher in Serbs and Bosniacs than previous levels. This means Serbs and Bosnians had less R1a to begin with and Croats more than 30%. You need to answer where this R1a is from and you find your answer.

If you compare North Greece with South Greece you will see what they have in common (Greek markers) and see what separates them (possible non-Greek markers). This is what you need to do before comparing levels of G.

 

[Taranis]

Findings in Treilles are from Neolithe and from first faze of it , when G haplogroup from Caucasus entered Europe , and most of DNA that was finded there was G , only few were I, and that I was I2a1 not I2a2 -Din
. Couldnt it be plausible that some I comed from Caucasus were it is present in Armenia together with G .

Could you cite any evidence that I2a1 is found in Armenia? It's the first time I hear this. From what I know, I2a1 is largely restricted to Western Europe, with the highest concentrations occuring in Sardinia and amongst the Basques.

Sample is to small to draw any conclusions.

Treilles is not the only Neolithic site. There is also Derenburg in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1000536

As I said, Treilles is a location where today ~70% of the population have R1b. What is the likelihood, if R1b was already present in that area in the Neolithic, that it turns up zero samples of R1b?

This German site also has almost exclusively Haplogroup G, and for a strange reason, Haplogroup F* (which is a tad surprising but shouldn't be too surprising). Again, this is an area which today has ~40% of the population as R1b. What is the likelihood, if R1b was already present in the Neolithic in Europe, for this site to turn up zero samples of R1b?

What is the likelihood of not one but two Neolithic sites turning up zero samples of R1b if it purportedly was already present and dominant. I would say VERY low.

The oldest site thus far which turned up R1b in Europe was Lichtenstein Cave in Lower Saxony, which belongs into the Urnfield Culture (circa 1000 BC).

And why would you think there would be preserved paleolitic haplogroups on Balkans which is crossroad of civilisations ( entering point from Asia ) and not in France which is in corner from any movements of nations? Only R1a1a and R1b-M269 could be conected with Indoeuropean movement to Europe . R1b (M73 and V88 ) clearly predate Indoeuropean movement . R1b1b2- Basque haplogroup also predates IE movement, all of it subclades has emerged in Europe , which mean there was no recent movements. R-L23 is 12.000 years old and it is spreaded all over Euroasia.

This has two components: first off, I do believe that paleolithic Haplogroups were preserved in France (9% I2a amongst the Basques certainly isn't a small value). Secondly, I do not believe that the present-day distributions and especially quantities of Haplogroup I were like this throughout the ages. Too much history happened in the meantime for this to work out, especially on the Balkans.

Distribution of R1b -strong on west , weak on east show it had moved from west to east. How did R1b crossed over midle Europe in souch great numbers without leaving any significant trail Rusia 6% , Ukraine 8% , Belarus 10% , Finland only 3,5% ( and up to 30% in Sweden and Norway).And still R1a that acompanied them left souch strong trail in Easter and Midle Europe . Did they have aeroplanes?You can turn question other way and ask yourself , if R1b realy camed in Europe together with R1a shouldnt there be more R1a in aerias where R1b is strongest :Spain ( 2% ) , Portugale ( 1,5% ) , Belgium (4%) , England ( 4,5%), France (2,5%) , Netherland (6%) ,Ireland (4%) , Scotland (4%) , Italia (2,5%) , Wales ( 3%) .

If you look into the Copper Age, you will notice that the Corded Ware Culture did only expand into Central Europe and Scandinavia, but something prevented it from entering into Western Europe. This was the Beaker-Bell Culture, which was near-simultaneous with Corded Ware (though not in all areas). I should add that Corded Ware is already known to have been carriers of R1a (based on samples from Eulau, Germany, from circa 2600 BC).

In my opinion, the Beaker-Bell Culture is the best candidate for explaining the spread of R1b. How did the Beaker culture arrive? Did they use airplanes?

I don't know (and I think they obviously didn't), but it's clear that the spread of R1b, more precisely the subclade R1b-L51/M412 (which includes Basque R1b) very much matches that of the Beaker Culture.

In any case it makes a lot sense if I2a1 was already in Europe since (at least) the Neolithic, and that the high concentrations of I2a1 on Sardinia are derived from the indigenous Nuraghic civilization than from the Vandals who were Sardinia for less than a century.

How do you explaining I2a2 in Kurds and Pastuni in Afganistan and Pakistan ? And very small percentage in Turkey 4% which conects Balkans with them , and most of it can be explained by moving of Serbs and Croats to Turkey like Yenichar army or by moving whole cities ( like population of Belgrade was moved to Istambul during XVI century , there is yet Belgrade mahala - quarter ).How do you explain that there is more I2a2 in newcomers -Croats and Serbs than in old populations like Romanians , Albanians ,Greeks ? Mesapi in Italy were descendants of Illyrians that crosed Adriatic see , why there is no I2a2 in they aerias - southern Italy ?

I admit, I have no solution for this yet, but I promise I will give this some thought.

Sorry forgot about Finns and Ests , there is another paleolitical haplogroup N1c ( in Europe since 20.000 years ago ) , Hungarians speak Indoeuropean languague with 50 Uralic and 100 Altaic( Turkic) words .

You are wrong about Hungarian. Where do you take from that it's Indo-European?! etrified: Hungarian is an Uralic language family, but it belongs to a different branch than Finnish and Estonian. The Hungarians (or I should rather say, Magyars) originally lived at the southern edge of the Ural mountains until they migrated into the Pannonian basin circa 9th century AD. It's clear though if you look at modern-day Hungarian Haplogroups that the modern Hungarians are for the greater part descended from the pre-Magyar population that lived there before, because Hungarian Haplogroups are not terribly different from those found in surrounding areas.

This makes a huge point which people tend to forgot: you cannot make 1:1 assocations between languages or language families and haplogroups, and people can swap their languages over time, but they cannot swap their haplogroups.

I believe Iberians moved in Spain 1200 BC acording to Romans.
Thanks for answering .

Could you please show me where you read that. It's the first time I hear that. Besides, where would they come from? As I said, the only language that shows some potential relationship to Iberian is Basque (and the poorly attested Aquitanian language, which may be the same as Old Basque). The problem is that we know too little about Iberian to say if these are Basque borrowing into Iberian, Iberian borrowings into Basque, or that the two languages were part of the same language family. From what I know, the Iberians are generally believed to have their origin in the bronze age El-Argar culture of southeastern Spain.

 

[Bodin]

And so were the Balkans, the difference between the Slav population in the Balkans is more Slavic R1a as opposed to the Balkanic R1a.
Oldest R1a in Europe is found in Bosnia , Serbia , Macedonia and Montenegro - 11.000 years old , almoust all other R1a in Balkans is 3.500 years old like eveywhere in Europe .
R1a M458 is considered to be Slavic marker , and it makes about 50% of all R1a in Poles , Russians , ... and other Slavs , but only 2,8% of Croatian R1a , 22% of Serbian R1a , 36% of Bosnian R1a , rest of Serbian and Bosnian R1a is Ancient ( 11.000 years old )


The region has been influenced by the Caucasus and the Caucasus has the highest levels of G in the world. Which mountain?
Caucasus chain of mauntins , sorry . It is hard to believe horseriding dwelers of steppes mixed with highlanders from Caucasus .



What is the frequency of G in Serbia? There is more G in Greece and Germany.
2,2 %



Do you always only look at the things you like or want to find. To learn what happened you need to understand the admixtures. An increase in R1b in Serbs and Croats relative to Bosniacs is very relevant. Do you want to make them exactly the same?
I dont won to make them the same , I just said is not that relevant for subject- origins of Serbs , but more for Balkanic admixtures in Serbs . My oppinion about decreased R1b in Bosnia , is that it hapened due to there was more old population killed during movings of nations.

The Croats have 2x more R1a! This is the Slavic R1a and suggests possible diffusion from Croat into the Serb and Bosniac population, pushing R1a higher in Serbs and Bosniacs than previous levels. This means Serbs and Bosnians had less R1a to begin with and Croats more than 30%. You need to answer where this R1a is from and you find your answer.
Croats have more R1a because Slavonia was setled by Slavs and Avars before Croats much longer time than rest of Croatia , Croats taking Slavonia under King Tomislav ( 910-930 ) , also Austrians settled some Kranjci from Slovenia in Croatia . Red Croats use to live in Herzegovina and Montenegro and mixed with Serbs and there is no elevated R1a but I2a2 . Also they lived in west Bosnia (Bosanska Krajina ) before movings from Serbia - there is also not elevated R1a ==> R1a is not Croatian but Slavonian.

If you compare North Greece with South Greece you will see what they have in common (Greek markers) and see what separates them (possible non-Greek markers). This is what you need to do before comparing levels of G. Now your speaking : what Serbs and Croats have in comon I2a2 -Croat-Serbish marker , and what separated them E1b1b1 and J in case of Serbs and R1a and R1b in case of Croats - non Serb-Croatish marker , thats what I talking about all the time .

And if you trying to explain origins of Serbs and Croats you have to knew history of them , otherwise how do you going to explain it

 

[Shetop]

Yes I am saying that I2a2 is brought mainly by Sarmatians , and in smaller percentage by Slavs and Goths ( both Visi and OstroGoths) due their contacts with Saramatians on north bank of Black see .

If I2a2a-Dinaric (now I2a1b1a) is mostly of Sarmatian origin you should explain how come most of these people speak Slavic languages today (I think there is no reason to believe that they ever spoke any other language)? Maybe you already did explain that in some previous posts? I couldn't read everything.

 

[Bodin]

QUOTE=Taranis;378348]Could you cite any evidence that I2a1 is found in Armenia? It's the first time I hear this. From what I know, I2a1 is largely restricted to Western Europe, with the highest concentrations occuring in Sardinia and amongst the Basques.
Sorry Armenian I is I2*B . But finding of I2b1 doesnt say nothing of I2a2 , because I2a and I2b separated 20.000 years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)
I* is found in low frequencies in Midke east ,Caucasus and Europe(only Slovenia 2/55, Andalusia 3/103 , France 4/179,Saami 1/35 )
I1* in Anatolia at 1%
I2* low frequencies in Georgia , Armenia and Turkey
Like you see most of ancient subclades of are also not found in Europe .
Treilles is not the only Neolithic site. There is also Derenburg in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000536
I never said there was no paleolitic I in Europe .Maybe it come from aeria around Vistula river where it has been long time , and later being involved in creation of Vandals .Maybe it is absent from that aeria due to move of whole Vandal tribe infront invading Huns and Slavs . There was Slavic tribe of Lendžani in that aeria of Poland that got they name from living on "ledina " empty / deserted land .Vandals carry it to Basque , Aragon and Sardinia.
As I said, Treilles is a location where today ~70% of the population have R1b. What is the likelihood, if R1b was already present in that area in the Neolithic, that it turns up zero samples of R1b?
Maybe that was isolated group , maybe R1b still hasnt arived over Pirrinei ?
This German site also has almost exclusively Haplogroup G, and for a strange reason, Haplogroup F* (which is a tad surprising but shouldn't be too surprising). Again, this is an area which today has ~40% of the population as R1b. What is the likelihood, if R1b was already present in the Neolithic in Europe, for this site to turn up zero samples of R1b?


What is the likelihood of not one but two Neolithic sites turning up zero samples of R1b if it purportedly was already present and dominant. I would say VERY low.
Maybe that was isolated group , maybe R1b still hasnt arived over Pirrinei or even Africa ?

The oldest site thus far which turned up R1b in Europe was Lichtenstein Cave in Lower Saxony, which belongs into the Urnfield Culture (circa 1000 BC).



This has two components: first off, I do believe that paleolithic Haplogroups were preserved in France (9% I2a amongst the Basques certainly isn't a small value). Secondly, I do not believe that the present-day distributions and especially quantities of Haplogroup I were like this throughout the ages. Too much history happened in the meantime for this to work out, especially on the Balkans.
History that hapened in Balkans would only decreas Paleolitic haplogroups not increase it.



If you look into the Copper Age, you will notice that the Corded Ware Culture did only expand into Central Europe and Scandinavia, but something prevented it from entering into Western Europe. This was the Beaker-Bell Culture, which was near-simultaneous with Corded Ware (though not in all areas). I should add that Corded Ware is already known to have been carriers of R1a (based on samples from Eulau, Germany, from circa 2600 BC).

In my opinion, the Beaker-Bell Culture is the best candidate for explaining the spread of R1b. How did the Beaker culture arrive? Did they use airplanes?

I don't know (and I think they obviously didn't), but it's clear that the spread of R1b, more precisely the subclade R1b-L51/M412 (which includes Basque R1b) very much matches that of the Beaker Culture.
Beaker Bell Culture could also be I2a1.

In any case it makes a lot sense if I2a1 was already in Europe since (at least) the Neolithic, and that the high concentrations of I2a1 on Sardinia are derived from the indigenous Nuraghic civilization than from the Vandals who were Sardinia for less than a century.

What do you mean less than a century , if they were ther for century , they couldnt just dissapear after Byzantium ( Justinian ) conquered Sardinia , they would stay there for XV centuries more - untill today .

I admit, I have no solution for this yet, but I promise I will give this some thought.
Please do I find dis discusion very inspiring , you actually convinced me that it could be posible I2a1 was in Europe atleast since Neolite ( 6000 years ago)



You are wrong about Hungarian. Where do you take from that it's Indo-European?! etrified: Hungarian is an Uralic language family, but it belongs to a different branch than Finnish and Estonian. The Hungarians (or I should rather say, Magyars) originally lived at the southern edge of the Ural mountains until they migrated into the Pannonian basin circa 9th century AD. It's clear though if you look at modern-day Hungarian Haplogroups that the modern Hungarians are for the greater part descended from the pre-Magyar population that lived there before, because Hungarian Haplogroups are not terribly different from those found in surrounding areas.
Yes Magyar is classified as Uralic languague because basic words ( family members , food ,... about 50 words ) are Uralic , but 99,99% of Magyar is IE loan words . Magyars moved from Ural in about III century AD , somewhere in steppes around Don , that land is called Levadia by their duke Levenda , there they mixed with Alans ( legend about Levenda married Dulo princess of Alans , they have some Alan words like Vert- sword ) . And with Huns and other Turks ( they have 100 words from preOttoman Turkic ) .In IX century was formed aliance of 10 tribes 7 Magyar and 3 Kabir ( Khazars ) which was called Ungor/ Ugar ( 10 arrows in Turkic ) .894 Byzantine emperor Leon VI called Ugars to attack Bulgar emperor Simeon who attacked Byzantium , they raid north Bulgaria , but Simeon called tribe of Pechenegi who use to live on east from Ugri , Pechenegi beated Ugri , and Ugri escaped to Slavic state of Panonia ( Franks vassals ) known also like Balaton principate ,by the legends Slavs didnt object they coming and there was no war , they just exepted Ugar rule . If you are interested in Hungary/ Magyarorsag history I could recomend you some great books.
This makes a huge point which people tend to forgot: you cannot make 1:1 assocations between languages or language families and haplogroups, and people can swap their languages over time, but they cannot swap their haplogroups.
That is exactly what I claiming hapened with Serbs and Croats - they accepted Slavic languague.



Could you please show me where you read that. It's the first time I hear that. Besides, where would they come from? As I said, the only language that shows some potential relationship to Iberian is Basque (and the poorly attested Aquitanian language, which may be the same as Old Basque). The problem is that we know too little about Iberian to say if these are Basque borrowing into Iberian, Iberian borrowings into Basque, or that the two languages were part of the same language family. From what I know, the Iberians are generally believed to have their origin in the bronze age El-Argar culture of southeastern Spain
.[/QUOTE]
Others have suggested that they may have originated in North Africa. This portion of the theory is supported by an observation of C. Michael Hogan who points out similarities between Chalcolithic artefacts in Iberia with Neolithic pottery in parts of Morocco.[2] The Iberians would have initially settled along the eastern coast of Spain, and then possibly spread throughout the rest of the Iberian peninsula
-from Wikkipedia (type Iberians., thats only one theory of origin)
I am not realy shore but I believe Paussanias write in his "Description of Hellas " that Iberians came in Iberia from Africa.Thanks for answering

 

[Bodin]

If I2a2a-Dinaric (now I2a1b1a) is mostly of Sarmatian origin you should explain how come most of these people speak Slavic languages today (I think there is no reason to believe that they ever spoke any other language)? Maybe you already did explain that in some previous posts? I couldn't read everything.

It is very dificult to explain how so manny people at all speak Slavic , because linguistics find Slavic to keep a lot of ancient characteristics which showing it was spoked by a small group of peoples during a long period . That group was probably around uper stream of Pripyat river ( Slavs do not have words for see or anything asociated with sailing -they are all loaned , so languague has to originate far from see , also by specifick names of trees they had in they languague , and names of trees they loaned it is shown they lived in aeria around upper Pripyat where is found such flora ) . That aeria is where Scythians Ploughers use to live , so they could be ancestors of Slavs.
Yes I did say my explanation about how Saramatians adopted Slavic languague , but I going to repeat it :There is few teories how Serbians and Croats accepted Slavic languague , one that sound most reliable to me is that Sarmatians use to marry Slavic speacking womans while they use to rule over the mases of Slavs around Pripyat - like all Iranians they use to have more then one woman . Since Sarmatians and they womans of Sarmatian origin use to spend most of the time in wars and horsebriding , Slavic wifes look after the childs , so childs have lurned Slavic languague from them .
There is also other theory that Huns use people from Upper Pripyat like befulci ( krajišnici , bordergards) , like Avars use Slavs , so they spreaded they languague in any country they comed like sort of lingua Franca . That certainly hapened in Slovakia and Slovenia where Avars settled Slavs during VI century - maybe on Balkans olso .
Thanks for asking

 

[Bodin]

Also to Taranis : if Iberians brought back some R1b from Africa then it would explain some of E V-65 in Europe ( African) - non Neolithic - Balkanic E V-13 , together with migration over see.

 

[Taranis]

Bodin, I do not want to sound impolite, I would entitle you to reformat your post because it's very awkward to read.

 

[sparkey]

Sorry Armenian I is I2*B . But finding of I2b1 doesnt say nothing of I2a2 , because I2a and I2b separated 20.000 years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)
I* is found in low frequencies in Midke east ,Caucasus and Europe(only Slovenia 2/55, Andalusia 3/103 , France 4/179,Saami 1/35 )
I1* in Anatolia at 1%
I2* low frequencies in Georgia , Armenia and Turkey
Like you see most of ancient subclades of are also not found in Europe .
Treilles is not the only Neolithic site. There is also Derenburg in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany.

No no no no no! I've already corrected someone (how yes no) on this point. All of Haplogroup I's ancient subclades are found in Europe. There is no known extant I*... all references to it are either outdated or really meant "I, no further subclades tested." The center of diversity of I1 is in Europe (close to Denmark) and the center of diversity of all of I2's subclades are in Europe, including the ones that we find in Asia. I2c (formerly "I2*") for example has three main clusters: I2c-A, which has a center of diversity close to Germany, I2c-C, same thing, and I2c-B, which is the one we find in Asia and is difficult to analyze, but could also have come from near Germany.

Secondly, I do not believe that the present-day distributions and especially quantities of Haplogroup I were like this throughout the ages. Too much history happened in the meantime for this to work out, especially on the Balkans.
History that hapened in Balkans would only decreas Paleolitic haplogroups not increase it.

I2a-Din in particular is interesting in that its center of diversity appears to be north of the Balkans and its TMRCA is very recent, suggesting that even if it is a descendant of Gravettian I, it was displaced from the region, bottlenecked elsewhere, and came back. Paleolithic continuity doesn't hold, as you indicate.

 

[Bodin]

No no no no no! I've already corrected someone (how yes no) on this point. All of Haplogroup I's ancient subclades are found in Europe. There is no known extant I*... all references to it are either outdated or really meant "I, no further subclades tested." The center of diversity of I1 is in Europe (close to Denmark) and the center of diversity of all of I2's subclades are in Europe, including the ones that we find in Asia. I2c (formerly "I2*") for example has three main clusters: I2c-A, which has a center of diversity close to Germany, I2c-C, same thing, and I2c-B, which is the one we find in Asia and is difficult to analyze, but could also have come from near Germany.



I2a-Din in particular is interesting in that its center of diversity appears to be north of the Balkans and its TMRCA is very recent, suggesting that even if it is a descendant of Gravettian I, it was displaced from the region, bottlenecked elsewhere, and came back. Paleolithic continuity doesn't hold, as you indicate.

So there is posibility it camed after Hunic invasions?