Who where the Sabines?

[Nobody1]

Italics, central european looking; not med looking.. the med people were the first inhabitant of italy before the inoruropean italics and celts came from central europe

Strictly concerning Anthropology of the Caucasoid sub-races [Nordic - Alpine - Mediterranean - Armenoid]

Not just the Mediterranid [Caucasoid] sub-race (Dolichocephalic) inhabited Pre-Indo-European Italy,
also the Alpinoid [Caucasoid] sub-race (Brachycephalic)

Smithsonian Institution - Report of the Board of Regents: Vol.45 (1891)
In another Neolithic cave, called the Caverna della Matta [north Italy], an Iberian skull was found with an index of 68, and a Ligurian skull with an index of 84. No anthropologist would admit that these skulls could have belonged to men of the same race.


This Alpinoid (Brachycephalic) is associated with the Pre-Indo-European Ligurians
[akin to the non-Indo-European Lapps]

Roberto Bosi - The Lapps (1977)
Then [Rudolf Karl] Virchow. examining a number of Lappish skulls at Helsinki, Lund and Copenhagen, in conjunction with ancient Ligurian skulls, discovered many mutual features suggesting an identical strain.

Lucan - Pharsalia (65 AD)
Ligurian tribes, now shorn, in ancient days First of the long-haired nations [Barbarians], on whose necks Once flowed the auburn [reddish-brown] locks in pride supreme;


Needless to say that the Indo-European Umbrians mixed with these Pre-Indo-European Ligurians
as is attested by Archaeological/Anthropological studies and Historical testimony:

Anthropological Society of London - Anthropological review: Vol.V (1867)
"when I look upon the delineations of the crania, the photographs and the figures given by M. Nicolucci himself, it appears to me that the difference between Ligurians and Umbrians, is about equal to the differences between Allemands and Germans.

Plutarch - Lives (120 AD)
the [Ambrones] often called out their name Ambrones, either to encourage one another or to terrify the Romans by this announcement. The Ligurians, who were the first of the Italic people to go down to battle with them, hearing their shouts, and understanding what they said, responded by calling out their old national name, which was the same, for the Ligurians also call themselves Ambrones when they refer to their origin.

---

also north of the alps such a mix happened between the Indo-European Kelts and a Pre-Indo-European Brachycephalic Alpinoid people, as attested in the diff. between the Hallstatt and Swiss-lake dwellers.

Sir William Ridgeway - The early age of Greece Vol.1 (1901)
It has been pointed out by Dr Verneau "that there is a strong likeness between the skulls from the tumuli of Glasinatz and those found in the graves of Hallstatt, the majority being in both cases dolichocephalic, a craniological phenomenon which is reversed in the case of the Swiss Lake-dwellers.

George Bradshaw - Bradshaw's illustrated hand-book to Switzerland and the Tyrol (1899)
Swiss Lake-dwellings - In his careful investigations of pile dwellings, Dr. Studer met with two extreme types of skulls, the brachycephalic and the dolikoccphalic; the former, at Schaffis and Lüschery (Lake of Bienne), belonging to the pure Stone period, and the latter, at Vinolz and Sutz, to the Bronze period. The facts point to an invasion by the Bronze men, involving a complete transformation of the group of domestic animals; the horse appears for the first time, and new races of sheep and dogs replace the older forms of the Stone period. The occurrence of mesocephalic, and even considerably shortened skulls, in the Bronze period, shows that there was no extinction of the brachycephalic race, but that the two races mixed.

 

[Nobody1]

ok, bigger than what I thought, they where part swiss

swiss?
Thats Historical Lombardy [Tessin - Misox - Bergell - Puschlav], Swiss couldnt conquer it (Battle of Crevola) so they made a treaty with the French and annexed it.

Historical Lombardy

maybe thats the reason the venetian republic ruled east lombardy for over 370 years without issue

Issues with whom?
Lombardy was never a state just an historical region; fiefdom of the Holy Roman Empire.
The medieval Lombard League (Battles: Legnano, Cortenuova, Parma, Fossalta) is the closest the Lombards ever came to unity; but even there half the Lombard comunes were Imperial Loyal.

Lombard League
Cremona - Brixia - Bergamum - Mediolanum - Porta Romana relief 1171, Milan

anyway, i attached a map and dialects of the insubres

Good map, goes to show how the Iron-age is still manifested in many regions.

 

[adamo]

I love one of the maps you posted where we see senones in Marche and lingones in Emilia-Romagna area and we all know senones+ lingones of north-eastern France near the Rhine/Moselle area and Belgian frontier. Personally, I doubt ligurians where actually Lapp though as there is no male N1c hg to support this in Italy, to me they where a R1b substratum.

 

[Nobody1]

I love one of the maps you posted where we see senones in Marche and lingones in Emilia-Romagna area and we all know senones+ lingones of north-eastern France near the Rhine/Moselle area and Belgian frontier. Personally, I doubt ligurians where actually Lapp though as there is no male N1c hg to support this in Italy, to me they where a R1b substratum.

Yup,
thats the Gallic (LaTene) Iron-age migration of ~400 BC; Senones - Cenomani - Boii - Lingoni
All from Gaul, except the Boii, they came from Bohemia via the eastern Alps.

For me personally the Boii are the most interesting and the once with the greatest legacy.

perfect example of a Boii - Montefortino type helmet; from Monterenzio Vecchio, Bologna - North Italy

 

[adamo]

Don't forget bellovesus's bituriges cubii, aedui, arverni, ambarri and aulerci also!

 

[adamo]

Many tribes basically, all across Gaul! Northeast France: lingones, senones , northwest france: aulerci, cenomani, carnutes, possibly long time-before veneti of Brittany. central france: bituriges cubii, aedui, southeast/central France: arverni, ambarri....they said the first in veneto was a Gaulish substratum, ancient veneti perhaps? But there's another theory saying Eneti paphlagonian Turks gave their name to veneto, I personally support the first hypothesis; it would be very realistic considering all the exact same Gaul tribes migration to Italy, why not veneti of northwestern Gaul to veneto and then more recently the carni ( carnutes?)

 

[MOESAN]

Many tribes basically, all across Gaul! Northeast France: lingones, senones , northwest france: aulerci, cenomani, carnutes, possibly long time-before veneti of Brittany. central france: bituriges cubii, aedui, southeast/central France: arverni, ambarri....they said the first in veneto was a Gaulish substratum, ancient veneti perhaps? But there's another theory saying Eneti paphlagonian Turks gave their name to veneto, I personally support the first hypothesis; it would be very realistic considering all the exact same Gaul tribes migration to Italy, why not veneti of northwestern Gaul to veneto and then more recently the carni ( carnutes?)

Sorry Adamo, I seem answering you in this post but in fact I 'm just doing some more general remarks:
in this thread I saw a huge quantity of old, TOO old surveys about history and linguistic - (even if I know old works keep always some worth in some aspect they would be balanced by more fresh studies -
and antrhopological studies too have to be refreshed - brachy- & dolichocephally by themselves have few value, they are only part of numerous traits we have to examine; it 's not saying they have none as say someones -
for I red Osco-Umbrians came lately enough (Iron Age) into N-E Italy first before going down in the "high boot" - and as I said (and other than me) in other thread, 'pelasgian' is a very IMPRECISE term concerning ethny and language, helas! I think Latines (and Sabines considered by linguists as cousins to them) came before Osco-Umbrians, even if from a same primitive old human stock) - maybe the 'terramare' ab- 1500 BC?(there were 'terramare' in Hungary, according to some scholars) of the Pô valley were the first Latines colonizing more ancient mix of Ligurians and predecessors (history in often a succession of sediments layers (strata))

I have no detailed opinion - just let's be carefull with some old studies

 

[Nobody1]

@ binx

Yes,

Euganei and Stoni were Ligurians,
Eneti were Indo-Europeans (pos. akin to Illyrians)

But the Raeti and there connections to the Etruscans are more complex;

-The Etruscans were Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi) who mixed with parts of the Indo-European Umbrians;

Dionysius of Halicarnassus -
And the same people, from the name of the country, out of which they had been driven, and, also, in memory of their ancient extraction, were called by the rest of the world, both Tyrrhenians and Pelasgi; which I have mentioned for this reason that, when the poets, and historians call them Tyrrhenians and Pelasgi, none may wonder how the same people would have both these names. For Thucydides speaks of them as living in that part of Thracia called Acte, and of the cities there as inhabited by men, who spoke two languages: He, then, makes mention of the Pelasgian nation in the following manner: "There are some Chalcidians, but the greatest part are Pelasgi, the same nation with the Tyrrhenians, ct who, once, inhabited Lemnos, and Athens." And Sophocles makes the chorus, in his drama of Inachus, speak the following anapaestic verses, "Father Inachus, son of the fountains of old Ocean, who art held in great veneration in the streets of Argos, and the hills of Juno, and among the Tyrrhene Pelasgi." The name of Tyrrhenia was then known throughout Greece.
-
Afterwards, some of the Pelasgi, who inhabited Thessaly, as it is, now, called, being obliged to leave their country, settled among the Aborigines; and these, with joint forces, made war upon the Siceli.
-----

Aborigines were identified by Strabo as the Umbrians;



John Denison Baldwin - Pre-Historic Nations (1869)
Dionysius of Halicarnassus, justly described as one of the most diligent and accurate antiquaries of his time, states that the first Pelasgian immigrants who settled in Italy went from Arcadia "seventeen generations before the Trojan War." Their leader was Oenotrus; on this account they were called Oenotrians. Dionysius says: "Antiochus, an ancient historian, relates that the Oenotrians were the first [Pelasgic] settlers known to have come into Italy; that one of this race, called Italus, was a king; and that Italus was succeeded by Morges,-from whom the Oenotrians were called Morgetes and Italians." The Oenotrians were followed by other Pelasgian colonies from Thessaly, and probably from other districts of the wide region occupied by the Pelasgic race.

These other Pelasgians from Thessaly are as Dionysius informs us the Tyrsenoi - Thyrreneans, who sailed up the Adriatic into the mouth of the Po. Herodotus places the Tyrsenoi in Lydia;

The Pelasgi Oenotrians [from Arcadia (first wave)] and
the Pelasgi Tyrsenoi [from Lydia/Thessaly (second wave)] were the 2 waves of Pelasgians from the East Mediterranean starting 17 gens. before the Trojan War;

The connection with the Raeti is still a mystery;


the voyage and arrival of the Pelasgian Tyrsenoi/Thyrrenoi

Dionysius of Halicarnasses -
greatest part of them, passing through the midland country, took refuge among the inhabitants of Dodona, their relations (against whom, as a sacred people, none would make war) where they continued some time. But, finding themselves grow troublesome, and the country not being sufficient to rapport them all, they lest it in obedience to an oracle, which commanded them to sail to Italy, then, called Saturnia: And, having prepared a great many ships, they passed the Ionian sea, endeavouring to reach the nearest parts of Italy. But, the wind being in the south, and they unacquainted with the coast, they were carried off to sea, and landed at one of the mouths of the Po, called Spines.

 

[binx]

Who where the Sabines, Samnites, oscans, Umbrians, brutii, Volscians, Marsi? I heard that oscans where related people's such as pelasgian oenotrians of southern Hesperia, where the Samnites Greeks, middle eastern or italics? Thread to discuss the origins of all these italian groups!: )

Sabines, Samnites, Oscans, Umbrians, Brutii, Volscians, Marsi and Latins... are all Italic people of indoeuropean origins.

Probably also the Sicels (Italian and Latin: Siculi) were an indoeuropean people, linked with the Italics.

 

[binx]

@ binx

Yes,

Euganei and Stoni were Ligurians,
Eneti were Indo-Europeans (pos. akin to Illyrians)

But the Raeti and there connections to the Etruscans are more complex;

-The Etruscans were Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi) who mixed with parts of the Indo-European Umbrians;

I completely agree with you.

And I agree, the connection between Raeti and Etruscans are more complex. But if there is a connection, and probably there's, this connection brings us to the Northern Caucasus.

 

[Yetos]

@ binx

Yes,

Euganei and Stoni were Ligurians,
Eneti were Indo-Europeans (pos. akin to Illyrians)

But the Raeti and there connections to the Etruscans are more complex;

-The Etruscans were Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi) who mixed with parts of the Indo-European Umbrians;

Dionysius of Halicarnassus -
And the same people, from the name of the country, out of which they had been driven, and, also, in memory of their ancient extraction, were called by the rest of the world, both Tyrrhenians and Pelasgi; which I have mentioned for this reason that, when the poets, and historians call them Tyrrhenians and Pelasgi, none may wonder how the same people would have both these names. For Thucydides speaks of them as living in that part of Thracia called Acte, and of the cities there as inhabited by men, who spoke two languages: He, then, makes mention of the Pelasgian nation in the following manner: "There are some Chalcidians, but the greatest part are Pelasgi, the same nation with the Tyrrhenians, ct who, once, inhabited Lemnos, and Athens." And Sophocles makes the chorus, in his drama of Inachus, speak the following anapaestic verses, "Father Inachus, son of the fountains of old Ocean, who art held in great veneration in the streets of Argos, and the hills of Juno, and among the Tyrrhene Pelasgi." The name of Tyrrhenia was then known throughout Greece.
-
Afterwards, some of the Pelasgi, who inhabited Thessaly, as it is, now, called, being obliged to leave their country, settled among the Aborigines; and these, with joint forces, made war upon the Siceli.
-----

Aborigines were identified by Strabo as the Umbrians;



John Denison Baldwin - Pre-Historic Nations (1869)
Dionysius of Halicarnassus, justly described as one of the most diligent and accurate antiquaries of his time, states that the first Pelasgian immigrants who settled in Italy went from Arcadia "seventeen generations before the Trojan War." Their leader was Oenotrus; on this account they were called Oenotrians. Dionysius says: "Antiochus, an ancient historian, relates that the Oenotrians were the first [Pelasgic] settlers known to have come into Italy; that one of this race, called Italus, was a king; and that Italus was succeeded by Morges,-from whom the Oenotrians were called Morgetes and Italians." The Oenotrians were followed by other Pelasgian colonies from Thessaly, and probably from other districts of the wide region occupied by the Pelasgic race.

These other Pelasgians from Thessaly are as Dionysius informs us the Tyrsenoi - Thyrreneans, who sailed up the Adriatic into the mouth of the Po. Herodotus places the Tyrsenoi in Lydia;

The Pelasgi Oenotrians [from Arcadia (first wave)] and
the Pelasgi Tyrsenoi [from Lydia/Thessaly (second wave)] were the 2 waves of Pelasgians from the East Mediterranean starting 17 gens. before the Trojan War;

The connection with the Raeti is still a mystery;


the voyage and arrival of the Pelasgian Tyrsenoi/Thyrrenoi

Dionysius of Halicarnasses -
greatest part of them, passing through the midland country, took refuge among the inhabitants of Dodona, their relations (against whom, as a sacred people, none would make war) where they continued some time. But, finding themselves grow troublesome, and the country not being sufficient to rapport them all, they lest it in obedience to an oracle, which commanded them to sail to Italy, then, called Saturnia: And, having prepared a great many ships, they passed the Ionian sea, endeavouring to reach the nearest parts of Italy. But, the wind being in the south, and they unacquainted with the coast, they were carried off to sea, and landed at one of the mouths of the Po, called Spines.

I disagree in the time of second wave, or maybe there was also a 3rd,
the last wave was done at 900-500 BC after Troyan war.
significant is the dates of Thyrrenians' stele in Aegan sea.
and Thoukidides mention about Thyrrenians.

 

[Nobody1]

I disagree in the time of second wave, or maybe there was also a 3rd, the last wave was done at 900-500 BC after Troyan war. significant is the dates of Thyrrenians' stele in Aegan sea. and Thoukidides mention about Thyrrenians.

There is no specific date for the second wave;

The first wave of Pelasgians from Arcadia [Oenotrians] is recorded as 17 generations before the Trojan war; - Dionysius
The second wave is only mentioned in connection with a famine - Herodotus ; and upon arrival in Saturnia (italy) with the expulsion of the Siculi from the Apennines - Strabo;

However Thucydides informs us that the arrival of the Siculi in Sicily was many years after the Trojan war; so the second wave [Tyrsenoi / Tyrrenean] must have occurred after the Trojan war;

 

[zanipolo]

@ binx

Yes,

Euganei and Stoni were Ligurians,
Eneti were Indo-Europeans (pos. akin to Illyrians)

But the Raeti and there connections to the Etruscans are more complex;

-The Etruscans were Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi) who mixed with parts of the Indo-European Umbrians;

Dionysius of Halicarnassus -
And the same people, from the name of the country, out of which they had been driven, and, also, in memory of their ancient extraction, were called by the rest of the world, both Tyrrhenians and Pelasgi; which I have mentioned for this reason that, when the poets, and historians call them Tyrrhenians and Pelasgi, none may wonder how the same people would have both these names. For Thucydides speaks of them as living in that part of Thracia called Acte, and of the cities there as inhabited by men, who spoke two languages: He, then, makes mention of the Pelasgian nation in the following manner: "There are some Chalcidians, but the greatest part are Pelasgi, the same nation with the Tyrrhenians, ct who, once, inhabited Lemnos, and Athens." And Sophocles makes the chorus, in his drama of Inachus, speak the following anapaestic verses, "Father Inachus, son of the fountains of old Ocean, who art held in great veneration in the streets of Argos, and the hills of Juno, and among the Tyrrhene Pelasgi." The name of Tyrrhenia was then known throughout Greece.
-
Afterwards, some of the Pelasgi, who inhabited Thessaly, as it is, now, called, being obliged to leave their country, settled among the Aborigines; and these, with joint forces, made war upon the Siceli.
-----

Aborigines were identified by Strabo as the Umbrians;



John Denison Baldwin - Pre-Historic Nations (1869)
Dionysius of Halicarnassus, justly described as one of the most diligent and accurate antiquaries of his time, states that the first Pelasgian immigrants who settled in Italy went from Arcadia "seventeen generations before the Trojan War." Their leader was Oenotrus; on this account they were called Oenotrians. Dionysius says: "Antiochus, an ancient historian, relates that the Oenotrians were the first [Pelasgic] settlers known to have come into Italy; that one of this race, called Italus, was a king; and that Italus was succeeded by Morges,-from whom the Oenotrians were called Morgetes and Italians." The Oenotrians were followed by other Pelasgian colonies from Thessaly, and probably from other districts of the wide region occupied by the Pelasgic race.

These other Pelasgians from Thessaly are as Dionysius informs us the Tyrsenoi - Thyrreneans, who sailed up the Adriatic into the mouth of the Po. Herodotus places the Tyrsenoi in Lydia;

The Pelasgi Oenotrians [from Arcadia (first wave)] and
the Pelasgi Tyrsenoi [from Lydia/Thessaly (second wave)] were the 2 waves of Pelasgians from the East Mediterranean starting 17 gens. before the Trojan War;

The connection with the Raeti is still a mystery;


the voyage and arrival of the Pelasgian Tyrsenoi/Thyrrenoi

Dionysius of Halicarnasses -
greatest part of them, passing through the midland country, took refuge among the inhabitants of Dodona, their relations (against whom, as a sacred people, none would make war) where they continued some time. But, finding themselves grow troublesome, and the country not being sufficient to rapport them all, they lest it in obedience to an oracle, which commanded them to sail to Italy, then, called Saturnia: And, having prepared a great many ships, they passed the Ionian sea, endeavouring to reach the nearest parts of Italy. But, the wind being in the south, and they unacquainted with the coast, they were carried off to sea, and landed at one of the mouths of the Po, called Spines.

2 other euganei tribes you did not mention
among the major tribes Euganeans the Triumplini of Valtrompia and the Camunni of Val Camonica.<sup>[2]

It is impossible that the etruscans and raeti are related, the raeti arrived in europe more than 2000 years before the etruscans. There only association was due to raeti using etrucan as a trade language, but the venetics did that too in the "TRADE" junction between brescia and verona. Only one tablet of etruscan was found north of brescia and that was at bolzano

someone stated the etruscans are also north caucasus people like the raeti .........i am unsure, IF they are they have little G2 which the Raeti have a lot of</sup>

 

[zanipolo]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Middle bronze-age period....blue are ligurians as per italian historical papers

 

[binx]

^{someone stated the etruscans are also north caucasus people like the raeti .........i am unsure, IF they are they have little G2 which the Raeti have a lot of}

Someone (some of the most well-known Russian historical linguists) stated that Etruscans language is North-Caucasian, to be precise. You can easily find all the references You need about that.

Etruscans had a very complex story, and They were not G2 only.


From Università Ca' Foscari Venezia

Il retico

Le iscrizioni 'retiche' sono così definite dal nome di una popolazione anticamente stanziata nell'area alpina, i Reti, e provengono dall'area prealpina ed alpina orientale, in particolare dalle attuali province di Verona e Vicenza, dal Trentino-Alto Adige, dal Tirolo e dalla Val Engadina. Sono circa duecento iscrizioni, in un alfabeto derivato da quello etrusco, con pochi adattamenti. Si tratta di testi, spesso brevi e frammentari, di difficile inquadramento anche per i problemi di interpretazione finora posti dalla lingua. Il retico infatti è una lingua non indeuropea, per cui gli studi più recenti hanno accertato una consistente affinità con l'etrusco. Tra le iscrizioni si riconoscono nuclei consistenti a carattere votivo; i principali luoghi di ritrovamento sono Magrè (Vicenza), Sanzeno (Bolzano) e la Valpolicella (Verona).


http://www.unive.it/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=49412

« His contermini Raeti et Vindolici, omnes in multas civitates divisi. Raetos Tuscorum prolem arbitrantur a Gallis pulsos duce Raeto. »

[TD="colspan: 2"]( Plinius Maior , Naturalis historia , III, 133)[/TD]

 

[zanipolo]

« His contermini Raeti et Vindolici, omnes in multas civitates divisi. Raetos Tuscorum prolem arbitrantur a Gallis pulsos duce Raeto. »

[TD="colspan: 2"]( Plinius Maior , Naturalis historia , III, 133)[/TD]

with my rusty latin .............someone should correct me

concerning raeti and vendelici, these people lived divided in their own ethnicity/culture/cities, the leader/chief raetos was of gallic people from the raeti tribe

 

[MOESAN]

I love one of the maps you posted where we see senones in Marche and lingones in Emilia-Romagna area and we all know senones+ lingones of north-eastern France near the Rhine/Moselle area and Belgian frontier. Personally, I doubt ligurians where actually Lapp though as there is no male N1c hg to support this in Italy, to me they where a R1b substratum.

I agree with you for the most: Ligurians are not at all for I believe, descendants of Lapps -
this concept 'alpins' = 'lapps' is old -
was it completely stupid? maybe not - 'alpin' phenotype seem having cristallized in western Alps a last mesolithic times upon a cro-magnid background and some scholars think Lapps (Saami) have roughly a half of their ancestors that came there from western Europe fater the LGM (based principally upon mt DNA it is true) - the 'asiatic' ('samoyed'???) part of ancestry among Saami came later, it is supposed - phenotypically, the mongolid part was very very scarce among Saami - they were rather a mix of proto-alpins with some east-cro-magnons of remote same origins, phoetallized in bad environment life, I think -
a proto-basque language could have been their one according to some survey about the substrata of Saami language - the finnic language came lately send by a group that became apparently the 'male' dominant group, where Y-N was heavy and some partly mongolid features were present -

 

[binx]

with my rusty latin .............someone should correct me

concerning raeti and vendelici, these people lived divided in their own ethnicity/culture/cities, the leader/chief raetos was of gallic people from the raeti tribe

This is the right translation

With them (the Norici=Celts also called Taurisci) confine Raeti and Vindelici, all divided into many communities. It is believed that the Raeti, descendants of the Etruscans, led by Reto, were driven out by the Gauls.

This is the whole paragraph. If You need, I can help You translating it.

Incolae Alpium multi populi, sed inlustres a Pola ad Tergestis regionem Fecusses, Subocrini, Catali, Menoncaleni iuxtaque Carnos quondam Taurisci appellati, nunc Norici. his contermini Raeti et Vindolici, omnes in multas civitates divisi. Raetos Tuscorum prolem arbitrantur a Gallis pulsos duce Raeto. verso deinde in Italiam pectore Alpium Latini iuris Euganeae gentes, quarum oppida XXXIIII enumerat Cato.

2) This is from Titus Livius, Historiae R., V, 33

Tuscorum ante Romanum imperium late terra marique opes patuere. Mari supero inferoque quibus Italia insulae modo cingitur, quantum potuerint nomina sunt argumento, quod alterum Tuscum communi uocabulo gentis, alterum Hadriaticum [mare] ab Hatria, Tuscorum colonia, uocauere Italicae gentes, Graeci eadem Tyrrhenum atque Adriaticum uocant. Ei in utrumque mare uergentes incoluere urbibus duodenis terras, prius cis Appenninum ad inferum mare, postea trans Appenninum totidem, quot capita originis erant, coloniis missis, quae trans Padum omnia loca,—excepto Venetorum angulo qui sinum circumcolunt maris,—usque ad Alpes tenuere. Alpinis quoque ea gentibus haud dubie origo est, maxime Raetis, quos loca ipsa efferarunt ne quid ex antiquo praeter sonum linguae nec eum incorruptum retinerent.

Before the Roman empire the influence of the Etruscans was much more extended by land and by sea; how very powerful they were in the upper and lower seas, by which Italy is encompassed like an island, the names of these seas is a proof; the one of which the Italian nations have called the Etruscan sea, by the name of the people; the other, the Hadriatic, from Hadria, was a an Etruscans' colony. The Greeks call these seas the Tyrrhenian and Hadriatic. This people inhabited the country extending to both seas in twelve cities, colonies equal in number to the mother cities having been sent, first on this side the Apennines towards the lower sea, afterwards to the other side of the Apennines; who obtained possession of all the district beyond the Po, even as far as the Alps - except the corner of the Veneti, who dwell round the extreme point of the Hadriatic sea. The Alpine nations have also this Etruscan origin, more especially the Raetians; whom their very situation has rendered savage, so as to retain nothing of their original, except the accent of their language, and not even that without a corruption.


3) This is from Marcus Junianus Justinus, Historiarum Philippicarum T. Pompeii Trogi, XX, V

His autem Gallis causa in Italiam veniendi sedesque novas quaerendi intestina discordia et adsiduae domi dissensiones fuere, quarum taedio cum in Italiam venissent, sedibus Tuscos expulerunt et Mediolanum, Comum, Brixiam, Veronam, Bergomum, Tridentum, Vincentiam condiderunt. Tusci quoque duce Raeto avitis sedibus amissis Alpes occupavere et ex nomine ducis gentem Raetorum condiderunt.

The Etruscans also when They were driven out from their old settlements, betook themselves, under a leader (dux) named Rhaetus towards the Alps, where they founded the nation of Rhaetia, so named after their leader.

 

[Nobody1]

I agree with you for the most: Ligurians are not at all for I believe, descendants of Lapps -
this concept 'alpins' = 'lapps' is old -
was it completely stupid? maybe not - 'alpin' phenotype seem having cristallized in western Alps a last mesolithic times upon a cro-magnid background and some scholars think Lapps (Saami) have roughly a half of their ancestors that came there from western Europe fater the LGM (based principally upon mt DNA it is true) - the 'asiatic' ('samoyed'???) part of ancestry among Saami came later, it is supposed - phenotypically, the mongolid part was very very scarce among Saami - they were rather a mix of proto-alpins with some east-cro-magnons of remote same origins, phoetallized in bad environment life, I think -
a proto-basque language could have been their one according to some survey about the substrata of Saami language - the finnic language came lately send by a group that became apparently the 'male' dominant group, where Y-N was heavy and some partly mongolid features were present -

have you even understood the source?
the source [Dr. Rudolf Carl Virchow - Charite, Berlin] does not claim the ancient-Ligurians to be descendent from the Lapps, its states that the ancient-Ligurians and the Lapps are of a broader common stock of peoples that once occupied a broader area in Europe. Dr. Virchow than continues and lists all the craniological similarities that are exclusive to Lapps and ancient-Ligurians.

Roberto Bosi - The Lapps (1977)
Then [Rudolf Karl] Virchow. examining a number of Lappish skulls at Helsinki, Lund and Copenhagen, in conjunction with ancient Ligurian skulls, discovered many mutual features suggesting an identical strain....The mandible of the Lapps is always small, the bone/formation unemphasized and the chin of a receding pattern not exactly repeated in any other human group - with the very exception of these almost entirely extinct Ligurians.

I doubt you ever even read Virchow;

The Ligurians were later absorbed into/by an Indo-European [Ambronen] people;

Which is attested:

Archaeologically [Urnfield] -

Linguistically [Prof. Altheim - Prof. Whatmough] -

Historically [Polybius] ....for the Ligurians also call themselves Ambrones when they refer to their origin.

and Anthropologically:

Anthropological Society of London - Anthropological review: Vol.V (1867)
when I look upon the delineations of the crania, the photographs and the figures given by M. Nicolucci himself, it appears to me that the difference between Ligurians and Umbrians, is about equal to the differences between Allemands and Germans.

 

[Nobody1]

@ binx

This is correct, Livius records that the expelled Etruscan from the Po Valley became the Raeti;
But a closer look is needed;

Titus Livius,
records that the Celtic migrations occurred (beginning) in the times of Tarquinius Priscus (~600 BC), and were started by the adventurous migrations of the two Celtic brothers Bellovesus & Segovesus;

Segovesus crossed the Rhine and settled the Hercynian Forest
Bellovesus crossed the Alps and settled the Po Valley - expelling the Etrsucans

Titus Livius continues the Celtic migrations into several waves with
Bellovesus being the first wave;

However this migration and the legend of the two celtic brothers Bellovesus and Segovesus is a fable and Archaeologically not attested;

The Golasecca culture remained consistant [no break] and the Etruscans remained in the Po Valley until the fall of Melpum (north) and Felsina (south);

Plinius - [III / 125] Nat. Hist. - quoting C. Nepos
item Melpum opulentia praecipuum, quod ab Insubribus et Bois et Senonibus deletum eo die, quo Camillus Veios ceperit, Nepos Cornelius tradidit

The fall of Melpum is put with the conquest of Veii by Marcus Furius Camillus ~396 BC;

So if the Etruscan of the Po Valley have had an influence on the Raeti than it must be ~390 BC with the def. expulsion of the Etruscan from the Po valley;