Religion why are not u a muslim?

[Satori]

yeah, I have heard many weird rumours about the freemasons in a "secret society of evil doings etc..."

What do they exactly do today in modern times??? They were medieval monks before right? Can anyone enlighten me?

I've seen that very same thing that Bossel talks about, and it's very strange. I haven't finished completely reading up on the subject, but from what I can tell, some people have taken certain information and twisted it into something else.

But in answer to your question, here are a few links about the Freemasons, as well as links pertaining to the discussion at hand:

Freemasons:

http://www.freedomdomain.com/freemason.html

Hitler and the Occult:

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/thenewage.html

Hitler: Atheist, Christian, or Neither?:

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html

Was Hitler a Christian?

http://kevin.davnet.org/essays/hitler.html

Hitler's Christianity:

http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/hitler.htm

Hitler and Christianity:

http://www.geocities.com/dreamtoucher/hxian.html

Hitler's Racial Ideology: Content and Occult Sources:

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/resources/books/annual3/chap09.html

What is "Theosophy"? A Process or a Religion?:

http://www.parascience.org/whatis.htm

Thule Society & NWO:

http://www.cephasministry.com/nwothule.html

About Hitler:

http://www.crystalinks.com/hitler.html


However, I think Bossel already correctly described this earlier:

For what I know, the Nazis used pretty much everything to support their ideology, from evolution theory to Christianity. It all was a mixture of science, pseudo science, pseudo religion & religion, plus Germanic mysticism (if that's not included in religion). There were even people who took National Socialism as a religion, praying to the "F?hrer" (Leader) for their daily bread.

Christianity prepared the ground for the nazis with its anti-Judaism. But the organized church in general was more an enemy of the state (IE the nazis) than anything else, with the exception of a few (eg the "German Christians" who wanted to prove that Jesus was Aryan).

From what I could tell, Hitler had his own mix of influences. It's clear that whatever he was exposed to, he then seemed to adulterate it for his own sick purposes. There were elements of Christian influence, yet he was against organized Christianity, even though some members of the Third Reich remained members of the church for political reasons. He was influenced by theosophy, yet seemed to twist those beliefs as well. And so on ...

:souka:

 

[Miss_apollo7]

Thanks Satori about the link about freemasons!

There were tonz of information, and it was an interesting read about the symbols and flags and mention of books on the subject.

However, I miss a detailed description of what the freemasons do today when they meet; It is a kind of "brotherhood", but do they just gather around and drink coffee? :relief:

About Hitler-links, yes. It has been summed up nicely, and everyone seems to agree now....
I hope you saw my answer to your question, which you asked me in a previous post, answer , which confirms the dubious relationship to Christianity the Nazi regime had.


:wave:

 

[Satori]

Thanks Satori about the link about freemasons!

There were tonz of information, and it was an interesting read about the symbols and flags and mention of books on the subject.

However, I miss a detailed description of what the freemasons do today when they meet; It is a kind of "brotherhood", but do they just gather around and drink coffee? :relief:

About Hitler-links, yes. It has been summed up nicely, and everyone seems to agree now....
I hope you saw my answer to your question, which you asked me in a previous post, answer , which confirms the dubious relationship to Christianity the Nazi regime had.


:wave:

Oh, yes, I did see it. Thanks for that. I had even done a little research of my own on the subject and had planned to respond further about it, but Bossel's response pretty much said everything I wanted to say. Then when I saw your most recent question about the Freemasons, I jumped in, even though I hadn't really completed my research. I was hoping to find the answer to the same question that you have -- just what do the Freemasons do today? Unfortunately, as I have already pointed out, I haven't completed my research on that subject. I do know that some groups oftentimes get a lot of bad press by people who have no clue what they are really about. In addition, there are some people who take well-intentioned teachings and turn them into something else entirely. For instance, some of these links talk about work with the non-physical levels, but they only refer to it as evil or satanic as opposed to good and shamanic. So I really need to spend more time with the research, I think. Anyway, thought you'd find it interesting nonetheless!

 

[bossel]

However, I miss a detailed description of what the freemasons do today when they meet; It is a kind of "brotherhood", but do they just gather around and drink coffee?

They do! Or don't they?
I think, it's hard to say for an outsider. There seem to be very different shades of freemasons, from atheist lodges in France to hardcore Christian lodges in some other countries. For what I know, in most countries religion plays a minor role(although it seems that atheists are usually dissuaded to join a lodge). I read up on this issue a year or so ago, when I had a discussion about the influence of the allegedly freemasonic Thule society on Nazism (which was minor).
If I remember correctly (don't have time to read up on this again) most freemason lodges seem to follow humanist principles (on a religious basis, though . I know that at least in German lodges there is always a Bible as symbol for definite truth present) & have the purpose to better the world.

If you really want to know, you could join a lodge. The only real threshhold seems to be the amount of money you need.

I found 2 links for you from my research back then (sometimes it seems to me that it's easier to search Google than my bookmarks):

HISTORY OF FREE MASONRY (very concise, but to be read with a grain of salt)

United Grandlodges of Germany Some info, but esp. very good if you can read German, then you'll find an extensive FAQ.

 

[Mike in Japan]

I think you need to be invited by an existing member.
Then you have to agree to being disemboweled should you divulge any of their secrets. SERIOUSLY

http://freemasonrywatch.org/knightstemplar.html
Anyone would think it was a GENUINE conspiracy

 

[bossel]

I think you need to be invited by an existing member.
Then you have to agree to being disemboweled should you divulge any of their secrets. SERIOUSLY

http://freemasonrywatch.org/knightstemplar.html
Anyone would think it was a GENUINE conspiracy

Seriously?

I wonder why this stuff is still propagated. The Templars very probably were no satanic cult or anything similar. They had some freedoms that other religious orders didn't have, but that's it. The main reasons why they were destroyed were that they had "too much" money & land, & that some feared them to become too powerful. Here is a nice link which explains the situation a bit & shows that even the pope exonerated the Templars:

Vatican File Shows Pope Pardoned Massacred Knights
" Vatican documents have come to light showing that the wholesale massacre of the Knights Templar in the Middle Ages for alleged ?heresy, idolatry and sexual perversion? ? an episode still shrouded in mystery ? took place even though the Pope had exonerated them in a secret trial."

I don't know about the need of an invitation to join a lodge. For what I know, you can write or email to one of your local lodges & apply for membership. They will inform you about the details (maybe you have to convince one of the "brothers" of your worthiness). In Germany the lodges even seem to have evenings when guests are allowed.

 

[Mike in Japan]

People who are genuinely interested, and interested in opinions other than yours (learned as you may be), can read the link I provided and draw their own conclusions. kashii:

The site is extensive, authoritative and provides a lot more information than can be related anecdotally or otherwise, on this forum

 

[bossel]

People who are genuinely interested, and interested in opinions other than yours (learned as you may be), can read the link I provided and draw their own conclusions. kashii:

The site is extensive, authoritative and provides a lot more information than can be related anecdotally or otherwise, on this forum

Seriously! I thought you were joking.

Do you really think, the site you linked is authoritative? Quoting works from 1780 to 1922? That's not what I would call latest research.

If people want to have an un-biased concise view of Templar history they should have a look at Wikipedia.

Another concise article about their history can be found on The Online Reference Book for Medieval Studies.

For a not so concise but rather complete history of the Templars I would recommend templarhistory.com.

From the latter I have taken the following quotes regarding some accusations against the Templars:

"1. That during the reception ceremony, new brothers were required to deny Christ, God, the Virgin or the Saints on the command of those receiving them.

Some foundation was had for this accusation during the trials as many of the Templars were tortured to confess to this accusation. Although little historical record has been preserved as to the initiation ritual of the Templars, it is known that the order was dedicated to the Virgin.

2. That the brothers committed various sacrilegious acts either on the cross or on an image of Christ.

There may in fact be some truth to this accusation but from a purely defensible position. It is possible that the Templars saw the Crucifix as the instrument of Christ's pain and death and therefore saw it not as an object to be worshipped, but as an object to be criticized. Worshiping an instrument of torture is somewhat akin to the family of a murder victim venerating the gun that killed the person in the first place.

3. That the receptors practiced obscene kisses on new entrants, on the mouth, navel or buttocks.

This accusation is quite unlikely to have occurred and was called during the Inquisition, "The Oscolum Infame" or in English, "The Kiss of Shame." It was a common accusation against the Albigensians of Southern France and latterly anyone accused of being a Witch.
[...]
9. That the Templars abused the duties of charity and hospitality and used illegal means to acquire property and increase their wealth.

Of all the accusations leveled against the order, this is in all likelihood had a firm basis in fact. It is well known that in the latter years the Templars became extremely wealthy and were often ruthless in the manner in which they obtained it. There is an instance in Spain where the order collected a toll for crossing a certain bridge and to ensure that everyone used the bridge forbade the use of any other means of crossing the river."

 

[Mike in Japan]

You may not like or agree with it, but that does not neccessarily make it untrue.

There is a huge amount of both information and misinformation available, some of which you have chosen to quote.

I am not here to debate the goodness or otherwise of this traditionally secretive organisation with you. Further, I refuse to do so.

I do however urge interested people to form their own opinions, and not blindly accept the opinions of others, perhaps such as yours.

With regard to your statement;
"Quoting works from 1780 to 1922? That's not what I would call latest research", I would simply say that an understanding of the history of this group would be essential to understanding what may or may not motivate them.

My suggested link that some will perhaps find authoritative and comprehensive;
http://freemasonrywatch.org/knightstemplar.html

I think this has gone WAY off topic now, so it may be nice for others if we bring this to rest.

Good day

:souka:

 

[bossel]

You may not like it, but that does not neccessarily make it untrue.

I may not like what?

I am not here to debate the goodness or otherwise of this traditionally secretive organisation with you. Further, I refuse to do so.

Which organisation? The Templars are long gone.
If you refer to freemasons, they are a diverse lot, & there is no proof that their lodges descended from the Templars.

I do however urge interested people to form their own opinions, and not blindly accept the opinions of others, perhaps such as yours.

By that you are saying the links I provided are my own inventions? Or how do I have to understand this?

With regard to your statement;
"Quoting works from 1780 to 1922? That's not what I would call latest research", I would simply say that an understanding of the history of this group would be essential to understanding what may or may not motivate them.

Which group? As I said, the Templars have seized to exist long ago. There is not one single institution which could rightfully claim their succession.

I think this has gone WAY off topic now, so it may be nice for others if we bring this to rest.

Don't worry, if it goes too far, at one point a moderator might step in & split the thread. Not much of a problem.

 

[Mike in Japan]

1) "I may not like what"?
The subject was your previous question;
"Do you really think, the site you linked is authoritative"?

2) "Which organisation? The Templars are long gone.
If you refer to freemasons, they are a diverse lot, & there is no proof that their lodges descended from the Templars"
Yes, the Freemasons. I assumed, obviously incorrectly, that you understood that.

3) "By that you are saying the links I provided are my own inventions? Or how do I have to understand this"?
No, I do not recall having said that at any time. I was referring to your obviously personal opinions stated in your second last post.

4) See 2)

Believe me I am not worried, but I do not see this line as being very productive. It seems to be degenerating into a personal spa, and I don't have the time or inclination for that.

 

[Miss_apollo7]

They do! Or don't they?
I think, it's hard to say for an outsider. There seem to be very different shades of freemasons, from atheist lodges in France to hardcore Christian lodges in some other countries. For what I know, in most countries religion plays a minor role(although it seems that atheists are usually dissuaded to join a lodge). I read up on this issue a year or so ago, when I had a discussion about the influence of the allegedly freemasonic Thule society on Nazism (which was minor).
If I remember correctly (don't have time to read up on this again) most freemason lodges seem to follow humanist principles (on a religious basis, though . I know that at least in German lodges there is always a Bible as symbol for definite truth present) & have the purpose to better the world.

You are right Bossel! I looked one freemason lodge up here in Copenhagen, and it seems to be very Christian with humanist principles....It has a website which said they worked for charity etc based on Christian values. Furthermore, it didn't seem that secretive after all.

 

[Mike in Japan]

Miss-apollo7 Did you mean to say 'Christian with humanist principles' or 'Christian with humanitarian principles'?
It is common for people to confuse the two, but humanism is a non-religeous philosophy which does not blend with Christianity (as far as I know).
Cheers,
Mike

 

[Miss_apollo7]

Miss-apollo7 Did you mean to say 'Christian with humanist principles' or 'Christian with humanitarian principles'?
It is common for people to confuse the two, but humanism is a non-religeous philosophy which does not blend with Christianity (as far as I know).
Cheers,
Mike

Hiya Mike!! hehe, I see the misunderstanding....I of course meant humanitarian....the lodge I looked at in Copenhagen had its own website and it had information on their work, which was humantarian charity work, they helped children in need etc.. and the lodge was based on Christian values...

 

[bossel]

Hiya Mike!! hehe, I see the misunderstanding....I of course meant humanitarian....the lodge I looked at in Copenhagen had its own website and it had information on their work, which was humantarian charity work, they helped children in need etc.. and the lodge was based on Christian values...

Actually, your usage was OK in both ways. Humanism, according to M-W:
"1 a : devotion to the humanities : literary culture b : the revival of classical letters, individualistic and critical spirit, and emphasis on secular concerns characteristic of the Renaissance
2 : HUMANITARIANISM
3 : a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values; especially : a philosophy that usually rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason"

What's more, for what I know, many lodges really combine humanism (as in 1 or esp. 3) & religiousity (probably except those few which are entirely atheist).

2) "Which organisation? The Templars are long gone.
If you refer to freemasons, they are a diverse lot, & there is no proof that their lodges descended from the Templars"
Yes, the Freemasons. I assumed, obviously incorrectly, that you understood that.

You give a link to a page which deals with Templar history, I react regarding Templar history. Then it's hard to assume that you suddenly jump to freemasons again.

3) "By that you are saying the links I provided are my own inventions? Or how do I have to understand this"?
No, I do not recall having said that at any time. I was referring to your obviously personal opinions stated in your second last post.

It is slightly confusing when you react to the second last post without quoting or actually referring to it. Naturally, I'd have to assume you mean the last post.

 

[Miss_apollo7]

Actually, your usage was OK in both ways. Humanism, according to M-W:
"1 a : devotion to the humanities : literary culture b : the revival of classical letters, individualistic and critical spirit, and emphasis on secular concerns characteristic of the Renaissance
2 : HUMANITARIANISM
3 : a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values; especially : a philosophy that usually rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason"

I have just checked the dictionary Bossel to clarify humanitarian and humanism regarding this discussion!! Not that I don't trust you - I do, but wanted to check for myself. :note:
Anyway, the word is still "humanitarian" according to the website of the lodge (that is the word the lodge used to inform about its work)...thanks for infomation anyway! :relief:

 

[Mike in Japan]

Quote :
Bossel; 3) "By that you are saying the links I provided are my own inventions? Or how do I have to understand this"?
Mike ; No, I do not recall having said that at any time. I was referring to your obviously personal opinions stated in your second last post.

Bossel; It is slightly confusing when you react to the second last post without quoting or actually referring to it. Naturally, I'd have to assume you mean the last post.Bossel,

The post I reffered to was at that time your last post (and appeared in that order). So yes, you would have assumed correctly.

Re Humanism
My Oxford defines it thus;
1 a non-religeous philosophy based on liberal human values.
2 literary culture, esp. that of the renaissance.

Note that it clearly states 'non-religeous'.

Hyper dictionary thus;
1. [n] the doctrine emphasizing a person's capacity for self-realization through reason; rejects religion and the supernatural
2. [n] the doctrine that people's duty is to promote human welfare
3. [n] the cultural movement of the Renaissance; based on classical studies

Note 'rejects religeon'

Wordnet thus;
1. humanism - the doctrine that people's duty is to promote human welfare
Synonyms: humanitarianism
2. humanism - the doctrine emphasizing a person's capacity for self-realization through reason; rejects religion and the supernatural
Synonyms: secular humanism
3. humanism - the cultural movement of the Renaissance; based on classical studies

Again we see 'rejects religeon'

So yes, as stated in my earlier post I would have to agree that 'humanitarian' is perhaps a more appropriate word.

Cheers

 

[Miss_apollo7]

Bossel,
The post at that time WAS your last post. So yes, you would have assumed correctly.

Re Humanism
My Oxford defines it thus;
1 a non-religeous philosophy based on liberal human values.
2 literary culture, esp. that of the renaissance.

Note that it clearly states 'non-religeous'.

Hyper dictionary thus;
1. [n] the doctrine emphasizing a person's capacity for self-realization through reason; rejects religion and the supernatural
2. [n] the doctrine that people's duty is to promote human welfare
3. [n] the cultural movement of the Renaissance; based on classical studies

Note 'rejects religeon'

Wordnet thus;
1. humanism - the doctrine that people's duty is to promote human welfare
Synonyms: humanitarianism
2. humanism - the doctrine emphasizing a person's capacity for self-realization through reason; rejects religion and the supernatural
Synonyms: secular humanism
3. humanism - the cultural movement of the Renaissance; based on classical studies

Again we see 'rejects religeon'

So yes, as stated in my earlier post I would have to agree that 'humanitarian' is perhaps a more appropriate word.

Cheers

Oh, I forgot to tell you about my observation after looking in a dictionary...oops! I also looked in Oxford.
I'll have to agree with Mike that humanism is the opposite of religious...

Anyway, I think the whole discussion started because I combined two words which are opposite of one another, namely: Christianity and Humanism.

The lodge I referred to in Copenhagen (there are of course others in Denmark), was definately Christian, and HUMANITARIAN. No discussion about this, as it says so on the website, but it's in Danish, so the link won't help much..

However, maybe I think what Bossel meant was lodges also could be HUMANIST, as there are also atheist lodges around.... :relief:

 

[Mike in Japan]

Yes Miss-apollo7, perhaps he meant that.

Personally I find them all, (Masonic Lodges, Freemasons, Orders of the Eastern Star, Templars etc.), distinctly 'odd', and treat them with a GREAT DEAL of caution and suspicion.

On a lighter note,
Have a great evening there in Europe! It's a tad windy here as we are being plagued with Typhoons at the moment!!

Cheers,
Mike

 

[Miss_apollo7]

On a lighter note,
Have a great evening there in Europe! It's a tad windy here as we are being plagued with Typhoons at the moment!!

Cheers,
Mike

Thank you Mike, and take care with the typhoons!! May your roof be there tomorrow also!
It is getting very late here in Europe, and it's bedtime for me now - have to get up early to view a dress rehearsal for an opera because of a friend of mine.... Goodnight!