Religion Why are there still Christians?

[Maciamo]

I felt the need to open a thread to rent about Christianity and religion in general. There were some really good quotes on Twitter.

 

[Maciamo]

And now some lighter, more humorous stuff.

 

[Maciamo]

And now some less funny stuff.





If God existed he/she/it would be the most hateful and sadistic being one could imagine. Why create so much suffering in the world and not do anything about it? And why even encourage it?



It's more likely that stupid and evil humans came up with all this nonsense.

 

[Maciamo]

In the end, religion boils down to early indoctrination of its followers and their inability to think for themselves.

 

[Stuvanè]

It would be just as interesting to understand why such questions and satire always target Christianity, whose influence on today's morality is substantially at a minimum, while other monotheisms - characterised by far more cumbersome and often archaic moral precepts - escape almost unscathed.
I have a few ideas, but I would like to read the opinions of others.

 

[Maciamo]

It would be just as interesting to understand why such questions and satire always target Christianity, whose influence on today's morality is substantially at a minimum, while other monotheisms - characterised by far more cumbersome and often archaic moral precepts - escape almost unscathed.
I have a few ideas, but I would like to read the opinions of others.

You mean in the English-speaking media? I think the answer is simple. Christianity is the main religion and English-speaking Western countries, and it still has a lot of influence in politics in the United States.

Anyway, all the points about the Old Testament are just as valid for Judaism (it's the same book). And all the points about an almighty God or religion are also valid for Islam.

Another reason why people don't usually criticise Judaism is that Jewish people are not trying to convert others, or prove that they are religion is right, or impose their morals on others. In fact the majority of ethnic Jewish people are not religious. According to Pew Research, in 2021 on the 21% of Jewish Americans said that religion is important for them as opposed to 57% of Christian Americans. And only 26% of Jewish Americans believe in the God of the Bible as opposed to 80% of Christian Americans.

 

[Stuvanè]

You mean in the English-speaking media? I think the answer is simple. Christianity is the main religion and English-speaking Western countries, and it still has a lot of influence in politics in the United States.

Anyway, all the points about the Old Testament are just as valid for Judaism (it's the same book). And all the points about an almighty God or religion are also valid for Islam.

Another reason why people don't usually criticise Judaism is that Jewish people are not trying to convert others, or prove that they are religion is right, or impose their morals on others. In fact the majority of ethnic Jewish people are not religious. According to Pew Research, in 2021 on the 21% of Jewish Americans said that religion is important for them as opposed to 57% of Christian Americans. And only 26% of Jewish Americans believe in the God of the Bible as opposed to 80% of Christian Americans.

I mean the Western world in general.
Which is quite casual about scrambling Christianity, almost moribund and inoffensive. It does not, on the other hand, persist with Jews and Muslims. But not coincidentally: the latter in particular are more dangerous and reactive in the face of criticism of their religion, and are electorally profitable for some left-wing political forces (in the decades to come they will constitute an important or even majority slice of their electorate, so stuff to be protected).
On atheism, I have always harboured some doubts. A true atheist guided solely by reason has never occurred to me. Rather, I see people animated rather by a kind of uncritical fideism of reason and science. The object of worship changes, not the accompanying dogmatism

 

[Vallicanus]

believe in the God of the Bible as opposed to 80% of Christian Americans.
This is a worrying statistic.

 

[bicicleur 2]

There are many new religions that didn't exist before. They are inspired by some leader who does the thinking.
Their followers are poorly informed as they are inspired by some leader who do all the thinking. but it does not stop them from taking radical actions.
'Just stop oil' protestors are one of them IMO.
Others believe animals have the same rghts as humans.
There are many more examples ..

 

[thejoker]

And now some lighter, more humorous stuff.

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Science can't even yet explain the fundamental nature of gravity, consciousness, what universe is made of , detailing how life begun on earth, how a bike can still balancing itself without someone on it hence it still doesn't know a lot of things after decades, if not centuries for some matters, they have been studied and analyzed . Way too easy to minimize it with a cartoon saying " i don't know enough", more like "i can't find a decent explanation despite all my efforts" . A thing is certain, It takes a lot more faith to believe that universe kicked into existence without a source to precede it than believeing in a God that made it happen. "The Quantum vacuum model" or "nothing" flaunted by scientists, that should have been the envirinment where a sparkle created universe, is a structure of a giant complexity such as energy, space, time, gavitational and matters fields.

Quantum Vacuum theory is already a failed explanation then because it is very far from the metaphysical concept of emptiness, it is already " the second part" not the prologue . They just a created a theory model that could float their boat but has no basis in emptiness. That's real faith worthy of a devout "Christian that knows everything".

I don't even get all this fuss to pick always on Christians when it's a matter of almost all religions to believe in a superior power in any case . Christianity is fading away in Western world unfortuntaley and is getting replaced by pink haired mofos who call religious people backward and then call themselves wiccans, witches, use to read tarots cards, consult horoscopes and heal themselves with crystals..

 

[Maciamo]

I don't even get all this fuss to pick always on Christians when it's a matter of almost all religions to believe in a superior power in any case . Christianity is fading away in Western world unfortuntaley and is getting replaced by pink haired mofos who call religious people backward and then call themselves wiccans, witches, use to read tarots cards, consult horoscopes and heal themselves with crystals..

If you had read my posts about religion in this forum (and there have been many in the last 20 years), you would know that I do not only pick on Christians but on any religion and any irrational beliefs, which also include wiccans, horoscopes and tarot cards. All are idiots.

 

[Maciamo]

Science can't even yet explain the fundamental nature of gravity, consciousness, what universe is made of , detailing how life begun on earth, how a bike can still balancing itself without someone on it hence it still doesn't know a lot of things after decades, if not centuries for some matters, they have been studied and analyzed . Way too easy to minimize it with a cartoon saying " i don't know enough", more like "i can't find a decent explanation despite all my efforts" . A thing is certain, It takes a lot more faith to believe that universe kicked into existence without a source to precede it than believeing in a God that made it happen. "The Quantum vacuum model" or "nothing" flaunted by scientists, that should have been the envirinment where a sparkle created universe, is a structure of a giant complexity such as energy, space, time, gavitational and matters fields.

Quantum Vacuum theory is already a failed explanation then because it is very far from the metaphysical concept of emptiness, it is already " the second part" not the prologue . They just a created a theory model that could float their boat but has no basis in emptiness. That's real faith worthy of a devout "Christian that knows everything".

That's a whole different discussion. What does this have to do with Christianity? You can easily believe in a greater power that created the universe and not be religious at all. It's called Deism. But this higher power obviously cannot have a human form. It cannot even be thought of as a life being (because life is a biological process that involves cells and inevitably ends up in death) and least of all as a sexual being (either male or female), as it's a specific category of life beings on Earth. Once you understand that, you can either choose to believe that there was a higher power that created the universe out of nothing, or that the Big Bang was not created out of nothing (a bit like an atom exploding but on a much bigger scale), or any theory you like that will in any case be untestable and unverifiable. You end up with a denomination of Deist, Atheist or Agnostic (meaning that you cannot know for sure if the universe was created by a higher power), but for all matter of purposes there is hardly any difference. None of them are religious. None of them can believe that all the nonsense written in the Bible or Quran or any other religious book can be anything but man-made.

 

[thejoker]

It's not a whole different discussion. It's a matter of believing blindly in something despite even science, or empirical observations in the case of a God , cannot explain it. That works for Christian people as well as for many atheists who only rely on science blindly. Deism has nothing to do with what i wrote , i stayed on the topic of the thread.
Christianity has to do with what i wrote because you were mocking it with a meme and were asking why there are stll Christians.

 

[Maciamo]

It's not a whole different discussion. It's a matter of believing blindly in something despite even science, or empirical observations in the case of a God , cannot explain it. That works for Christian people as well as for many atheists who only rely on science blindly.
Christianity has to do with what i wrote because you were mocking it with a meme and were asking why there are stll Christians, as simple as that.

Science does not come with all the answers, unlike religion. The point of science is to keep discovering new things and furthering our understanding of the universe and nature. We have come a long way in the last few centuries, but there is still a lot to explain. It's not because we haven't found an explanation to some of the things you mentioned that there isn't any. It just takes time. We are also limited by our human intelligence. It would be presumptuous to think that humans have the capability to understand everything. Would Homo Erectus have had the ability to understand all modern science. Surely not, due to their much smaller brains. In fact many modern humans cannot and will never be able to understand the most complex aspects of modern science. You could even say that no any single individual can possess all the scientific knowledge and understanding that we have developed so far. There is just too much for a single brain. But that's not because we can't know or understand everything, or that we are still in the process of advancing science that science has failed and that humans are better off trading science for childish fairy tales. Well, actually I understand that less intelligent individuals may have to resort to that because their cognitive abilities are really too limited.

 

[norbert]

Just a few centuries before the official establishment of Christianity as state religion, the Romans would have quite a laugh if someone told them that a two-bit deity from the Southern Levant, a minor warrior storm god from the desert called Yahweh, would become the god of their successor empires. Yahweh was just one among 72 (or 76 according to some) deities in the Canaanite pantheon, most likely snatched from the Shasu, a tribe of illiterate nomads. Yahweh would embark on a long journey of transformations and transfigurations in accordance with those of the early Israelites who went from polytheism to henotheism until they finally settled for monotheism by fusing Yahweh with the principal deity of the Canaanites, El, making him their national god and themselves his chosen people.

If Jesus existed as a real historical figure, he must have been a Jewish reformer trying to break with the intolerance, supremacism and exclusivism of "the chosen ones." Perhaps that's why he's so despised among them, even to the extent that the Talmud has him "punished in boiling excrement." Maciamo is right: Jewish people are not trying to convert others. But that's because they believe they are an exclusive club, thus the chosen ones. The rest of mankind cannot be viewed as equals. However, Talmudic views play no role in the lives of most Jews who are not religious. Christianity most likely arose as an attempt to reform Judaism from within by transforming it into a universalist religion.

In most of Europe, Christianity fortunately no longer dictates people's everyday lives. It is recognised as part of our cultural histories but people grow, accumulate knowledge and draw conclusions from new discoveries about nature and our place in the universe. And we have come a long way. Natural philosophy and science as we know them today go back to the Greek. They were asking the same questions scientists ask today. But civilisation depends on material realities rather than ideas. When a civilisation collapses, when people become plagued by war and hunger, they retort back to superstition. They no longer care what is true but what comforts them. In the West we have been living in relative peace, stability and prosperity, thus there is no need for religion.

 

[torzio]

I never ever understood why people convert to different religions, whats the point ! ....... there is only one God .........................maybe religious institutions all believe there is more then one God.

Besides, religious institutions are not required as one prays to God directly, one does not pray to false Gods called religious institutions

 

[Yetos]

They all promise the same

 

[Vallicanus]

I mean the Western world in general.
Which is quite casual about scrambling Christianity, almost moribund and inoffensive. It does not, on the other hand, persist with Jews and Muslims. But not coincidentally: the latter in particular are more dangerous and reactive in the face of criticism of their religion, and are electorally profitable for some left-wing political forces (in the decades to come they will constitute an important or even majority slice of their electorate, so stuff to be protected).
On atheism, I have always harboured some doubts. A true atheist guided solely by reason has never occurred to me. Rather, I see people animated rather by a kind of uncritical fideism of reason and science. The object of worship changes, not the accompanying dogmatism

Science can't even yet explain the fundamental nature of gravity, consciousness, what universe is made of , detailing how life begun on earth, how a bike can still balancing itself without someone on it hence it still doesn't know a lot of things after decades, if not centuries for some matters, they have been studied and analyzed . Way too easy to minimize it with a cartoon saying " i don't know enough", more like "i can't find a decent explanation despite all my efforts" . A thing is certain, It takes a lot more faith to believe that universe kicked into existence without a source to precede it than believeing in a God that made it happen. "The Quantum vacuum model" or "nothing" flaunted by scientists, that should have been the envirinment where a sparkle created universe, is a structure of a giant complexity such as energy, space, time, gavitational and matters fields.

Quantum Vacuum theory is already a failed explanation then because it is very far from the metaphysical concept of emptiness, it is already " the second part" not the prologue . They just a created a theory model that could float their boat but has no basis in emptiness. That's real faith worthy of a devout "Christian that knows everything".

I don't even get all this fuss to pick always on Christians when it's a matter of almost all religions to believe in a superior power in any case . Christianity is fading away in Western world unfortuntaley and is getting replaced by pink haired mofos who call religious people backward and then call themselves wiccans, witches, use to read tarots cards, consult horoscopes and heal themselves with crystals..

They all promise the same

Yes. Jam tomorrow!

 

[Tautalus]

There are still Christians and always will be because Christianity is rooted in deep human needs.
Christianity has always adapted to respond to that needs.

One of the least known aspects about the origin of Christianity is that it resulted from a fusion between Judaism and Polytheism. Contrary to most people's belief, it is not a pure derivative of Judaism.
Some of its fundamental ideas do not have Jewish origins, but rather originate from the polytheistic mystery religions from Greece, Egypt and Persia. It was influenced by the solar myths, by Sol invictus, It was influenced by the myths of Attis, Isis, Horus, Mithra, Adonis.
The concept of a man-god, the incarnation, the resurrection, the idea of the trinity, all of this was influenced by the Greco-Roman mystery religions. This influence is both ritual and doctrinal.

Attis, the Good Shepherd, was the son of Cybele, the virgin who gave birth to him. According to myth, Attis was killed but resurrected in the spring. The central theme of the myth is Attis's triumph over death.

Adonis suffered a cruel death, after which he descended into hell, rose again, and then ascended into Heaven.

December 25th was known as the birthday of the Roman Sun-god, Sol-Invictus, and the Persian sun-god, Mithra.

Mithra’s festivals were the in Winter Solstice and the Vernal Equinox (Christmas and Easter), is sacred day was Sunday.

It is because of this syncretism that it spread and took root so quickly.

From this syncretism, the mythology of the West, Christianity, was born.

It was a mythology that gave meaning to the West during a millennium and a half.

Its negative aspects are often mentioned, the Inquisition, the obscurantism, the scandal of pedophilia, but at its best it fertilized the most brilliant civilization and the greatest’s cultural achievements.

Christianity is the source of our ethical values. Our Western sensibility and our morals are Christian, not Greek or Roman. It was the Christian culture into which we were born that formed us and gave us our Western sensibility, distinct from other civilizations.

Today Christianity as lost is place in our culture and we Europeans are poorer because of that.

Christianity has lost its vitality and his faithful, at least in Europe, it thrives in Africa and the Americas.

What Nietzsche predicted in the 19th century, the death of God, came to be true in the XX.

I'm an agnostic, but I've always been a little jealous of those who have faith. I wish I had faith, even though I know I'll never have it.

The human need to believe in something higher will never disappear and that's why Christianity will never disappear.​

 

[italouruguayan]

I agree with Tautalus.
I was Catholic, and I was educated in schools of Salesian brothers.
But over time my faith began to decrease, and today I consider myself a deist, since I am not an atheist either. I believe there is "something" that is beyond the scope of our understanding. But I believe that the bond between us and that "something" is absolutely individual, and any attempt by someone to intervene is an attempt to try to dominate us.
But even considering this "intrusion", I believe that Christianity, which is at the basis of our civilization, gave us something fundamental: free will.
Free will was the small hole that allowed the acceptance of the development of science (although it took a lot to defeat dogmatism) and our current conception of the world. I think that in Islam it would not have been possible (or at least, in the current conception of Islam): God has already determined everything and there is nothing to do but obey.
And furthermore, despite its natural dogmatism, Christianity has been able to adapt, at least partially, to today's world.