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Politics Will Russia Attack Ukraine?

 
Riverman said:
The Ukrainians started to brutalise the civilians in Donbas first, that's the starting point!

There is no justification for torture and mutilation. The only possible, imaginable, justification someone might come up, potentially, is that a person did that too to one of his own. Kind of mirror penalty. The other case might be information, crucial, life saving information in an interrogation. Even these two "justifications" are questionable and being denied by any "Liberal law", human rights, martial law etc.

There is, from my point of view, no other justification at all, for causing, deliberately, pain and suffering on a person, mutilating and hurting it, other than in combat.

This is the other level. Because fighting, even killing, for a concrete, understandable goal, with the force being limited to reach the goal, is a completely different level than deliberateley torturing and mutilating people!

War is war and the Russians didn't do, up to this point, anything which isn't in the limits of military necessity. In a war caused by the actions of the Selenski regime minimum as much as by what Putin did.

If a bomb hits a civilian building, because military targets are close by, its a completely different thing than torturing and mutiliting, deliberately, helpless people!

The barbarism is in torturing and mutilating helpless people for no good reason. There is no justification for that, never.
Click to expand...


You are writing propaganda. Pure and simple. Putin started an illegal war. He is a war criminal.

Putin has displaced MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. The Donbas situation was small by comparison.
 
You are also twisting facts by suggesting that Russia is doing nothing wrong when Ukrainian civilians are hit because they are near military targets.

You should be ashamed to write such drivel.

Military necessity indeed...the weasel words of cowards and tyrants.
 
Vallicanus said:
You are writing propaganda. Pure and simple. Putin started an illegal war. He is a war criminal.
Putin has displaced MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. The Donbas situation was small by comparison.
Click to expand...
It was about millions of people and there was no solution. Ukraine didn't even negotiate. You excuse the confrontational policy and the atrocities of the Ukrainian side.
What should Russia have done?
Just watch while the Ukrainians do that to their friends and people, while building up a hostile state at its Southern border with brutal means? With the US services in the background.
The persecution of the Pro-Russian people was also real, Ukraine became, being now, an autocratic state itself.
You just completely ignore the Russian side of things. I don't ignore the Ukrainian side of things, but in the last three years, the Selenski regime did absolutely nothing for peace and reconciliation and everything for provocation and confrontation with Russia.
There are limits to what the Russians can endure, any other nation would have had troubles if a neighbour acts that way too.
Its not like I don't see Russias wrongdoings as well, I do, but to blame it all on one side in this conflict is nothing but biased propaganda.

As for the civilians: The Ukrainian forces position themselves in the midst of civilian structure, that's their tactic.
They didn't do enough for the evacuation, while the Russians tried to evacuate as many as possible.
And there is a major difference between deliberately targeting civilians, which some here in this thread claimed, and accidental collateral damage.
The latter is bad too, but its no war crime, no intentional cruelty and the only ways to prevent it are:
- evacuate civilians or fight elsewhere, both was wanted by the Russians, but not done by the Ukrainians
- make peace and come to a diplomatic solution. The Selenski regime and Biden administration didn't wanted that too.
If they would, if they would have made a fair and serious peace offer, this war would have never started.

Blame the Russians only for what was their fault. The major escalation was their fault and I'm against it. But I do know why they did it and they were pushed to it by the other side.
 
Lets just hope Ergodan can help broker a peace here, I don't like strongmen but strongmen are a result of corrupt Democracies and unfortunately that is where we are at in the West, our politicians have been bought off by Greedy Oligarchs that more resemble Dragons guarding hoards of gold...again the ones that suffer in this cruel game are the common man we are just collateral damage in this game...
 
Riverman said:
Blame the Russians only for what was their fault. The major escalation was their fault and I'm against it. But I do know why they did it and they were pushed to it by the other side.
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Provocation is no excuse for an invasion without a declaration of war.
Period.

The major escalation is all down to Russia. I only agree with you on this point.

The alleged Ukrainian atrocities in Donbas are just Kremlin propaganda.
Do you actually believe the deceit of an authoritarian regime that manufactures its own "truth"?
 
Vallicanus said:
Provocation is no excuse for an invasion without a declaration of war.
Period.
Click to expand...

I'd agree in general, but here is the problem: One wrongdoing doesn't negate the other. They are both guilty. Period.

And the "provocation" was suppression of the Russians, of the pro-Russian sphere, persecution and purging, break of the treaties (Minsk I+II), no additional negotiations, just attacks on the Donbas people with the imminent threat of an attack, they already shelled the region. And while this happened, while this war became inevitable, the Ukrainians just provoked and armed up, with the US in the background. That means they attacked the Russians and the time was running in their favour. In a way, the Russians waited too long, because the new arms came in by the day. Militarily and politically, the situation was unbearable.

The alleged Ukrainian atrocities in Donbas are just Kremlin propaganda.
Do you actually believe the deceit of an authoritarian regime that manufactures its own "truth"?
Click to expand...

The Ukrainians were so arrogant and stupid to film some of their torture and mutiliation games. The footage is authentic often enough to make clear with what we're dealing with.

If there would an independent investigation, I'm sure both sides will have their transgressions, but some Ukrainian actions just stick out at the moment, and they really have the gut, the impertinence, the arrogance to publish it with pride. Some of the images being even shown in the Western media by the way, without recognising, without commenting on what the viewer actually sees. Because its about wounded and tortured soldiers, which being obviously pressured to make their "statements" in favour of the Ukraine. Its a disgrace, and only a few Western media pointed it out, that picturing soldiers which being obviously wounded and sometimes tortured that way. Its against the rules in "civilised warfare", but Ukraine did leave that ground from the start and did so in Donbas for quite some time.

The Ukrainians directly threatened the people of Donbas and the allies of Russia, broke the agreements (Minsk II), which they actually never implemented, and refused to negotiate. That's more than provocation and for the "declaration of war" - there was an ongoing war in Donbas, it never stopped, and its not because the Russians didn't try.

The main problem with the major escalation for me is that it hits normal Russians and Ukrainians. If it would only hit the decision makers of the Selenski regime, which are the primary responsible people for this catastrophy, I wouldn't have had any objections, because these are no innocents, they caused the escalation. Unfortunately a lot of good Russian and Ukrainian people get hurt in the process, that's my main problem. I completely understand why Russia did it and its impossible to blame them solely after what the Ukrainian regime did. But its still wrong from a humane perspective and should have been prevented. On the other hand, I can't blame the Russians for not trying, they tried everything and warned for quite some time - to their disadvantage, because all their good and honest efforts being just mocked and declined by the Selenski regime and the USA, while they armed up and prepared for war.
Even people with good will, which try to prevent the inevitable, have their limits. The Ukrainians pushed them over the limit and such a behaviour is unexcusable. They did really everything to push the Russians down and out, including harsh, criminal and unfair measures, which have nothing to do with Democracy and freedom by the way.

You can say Russia is not that nice to its opposition too, but the actions the Ukraine used, against the local Russian population and activists, are no way better and not just take the moral higher ground they might have otherwise had, but they caused the Russian reaction. Should the Russians just have watched and observed what they are doing? How they crash their people and allies, how they build up a force and threat at their South?

If the Ukrainians would have at least tried to negotiate, in a serious manner, it would be all different. But you can't just ignore a neighbour with legitimate interests and prepare for war against its protected minority without consequences. And the atrocities, including mutilation of POW and shelling of civilians, in Donbas are real, they are no fake, and it happened in the last 8 years.
 
Riverman said:
I'd agree in general, but here is the problem: One wrongdoing doesn't negate the other. They are both guilty. Period.

And the "provocation" was suppression of the Russians, of the pro-Russian sphere, persecution and purging, break of the treaties (Minsk I+II), no additional negotiations, just attacks on the Donbas people with the imminent threat of an attack, they already shelled the region. And while this happened, while this war became inevitable, the Ukrainians just provoked and armed up, with the US in the background. That means they attacked the Russians and the time was running in their favour. In a way, the Russians waited too long, because the new arms came in by the day. Militarily and politically, the situation was unbearable.



The Ukrainians were so arrogant and stupid to film some of their torture and mutiliation games. The footage is authentic often enough to make clear with what we're dealing with.

If there would an independent investigation, I'm sure both sides will have their transgressions, but some Ukrainian actions just stick out at the moment, and they really have the gut, the impertinence, the arrogance to publish it with pride. Some of the images being even shown in the Western media by the way, without recognising, without commenting on what the viewer actually sees. Because its about wounded and tortured soldiers, which being obviously pressured to make their "statements" in favour of the Ukraine. Its a disgrace, and only a few Western media pointed it out, that picturing soldiers which being obviously wounded and sometimes tortured that way. Its against the rules in "civilised warfare", but Ukraine did leave that ground from the start and did so in Donbas for quite some time.

The Ukrainians directly threatened the people of Donbas and the allies of Russia, broke the agreements (Minsk II), which they actually never implemented, and refused to negotiate. That's more than provocation and for the "declaration of war" - there was an ongoing war in Donbas, it never stopped, and its not because the Russians didn't try.

The main problem with the major escalation for me is that it hits normal Russians and Ukrainians. If it would only hit the decision makers of the Selenski regime, which are the primary responsible people for this catastrophy, I wouldn't have had any objections, because these are no innocents, they caused the escalation. Unfortunately a lot of good Russian and Ukrainian people get hurt in the process, that's my main problem. I completely understand why Russia did it and its impossible to blame them solely after what the Ukrainian regime did. But its still wrong from a humane perspective and should have been prevented. On the other hand, I can't blame the Russians for not trying, they tried everything and warned for quite some time - to their disadvantage, because all their good and honest efforts being just mocked and declined by the Selenski regime and the USA, while they armed up and prepared for war.
Even people with good will, which try to prevent the inevitable, have their limits. The Ukrainians pushed them over the limit and such a behaviour is unexcusable. They did really everything to push the Russians down and out, including harsh, criminal and unfair measures, which have nothing to do with Democracy and freedom by the way.

You can say Russia is not that nice to its opposition too, but the actions the Ukraine used, against the local Russian population and activists, are no way better and not just take the moral higher ground they might have otherwise had, but they caused the Russian reaction. Should the Russians just have watched and observed what they are doing? How they crash their people and allies, how they build up a force and threat at their South?

If the Ukrainians would have at least tried to negotiate, in a serious manner, it would be all different. But you can't just ignore a neighbour with legitimate interests and prepare for war against its protected minority without consequences. And the atrocities, including mutilation of POW and shelling of civilians, in Donbas are real, they are no fake, and it happened in the last 8 years.
Click to expand...


No matter how you riddle it's clear that Putin's agenda is ultra nationalistic. You sympathize with the thought of old Russian rights in parts of the Ukraine. I don't support such claims because if you do so this is going to be endless, because Poland and Austria, Hungary can do the same with parts Ukraine etc etc. Old revenge kind of agenda's resulting in nothing more than ethnocentric misery.
:vomitting:

Besides that Putin is clearly making steps towards an autocratic, totalitarian regime. The opposition is poised or in Siberia. Mentioning of the word war can get you into prison etc. That is willingly and not because of some sort reaction towards external pressure.

And last but not least people Russians and the Ukraine get crushed by the military machine, we see it in the use of all kind of weapons that turn complete cities into ashes (just like in Grozny, just like Aleppo in Syria before etc). The use of no merci Chechen and, just saw this, even more 'private army's' that are not bound to any 'rule" like the Wagner group, that are pure slayers:

[video]https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/03/29/wagner-group-ukraine-dlt-leighton-sot-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/russia-ukraine-military-conflict/[/video]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Utkin

Spare me a reply about the Americans and the West thit that, the Ukrainian nationalist thit that. I know that they are not angels to, nevertheless the sympathy and the description of Putin you use is way way to flattering.

In the end I agree with Biden: this is a butchery.
 
Northener said:
In the end I agree with Biden: this is a butchery.
Click to expand...

Yes, and he caused it. He should be ashamed of what he and his agents did with Russia and in Ukraine. He is the very last person to have any say on this, because he was and still is directly involved in the escalation. He caused this war, by his actions, by this totally unnecessary and aggressive intervention in Ukraine. They corrupted and manipulated the Ukrainian political class, worked with the regional oligarchs, just to weaponise Ukraine against Russia.
And of course, when the Ukrainians commit atrocities or act undemocratically, authoritarian, it doesn't matter, its being either ignored or even praised! Can it get lower than that!

Its not about Putin, its a Russian interest war, any Russian politician which experienced with the USA and the Selenski regime would have had troubles with it and at least considered the war option. Ethnocentric? Who are the nationalists which want to erase Russian from Ukraine, which want to drive the Donbas Russians out and keep any pro-Russian voice down? They even banned the Russian language, its no longer and official language in Ukraine and you saw the maps, you saw that this concerns millions of people. Ethnic interests are real and legitimate, and Russia has all the more rights and legitimation to care for ethnic Russians, than Ukrainians have a say on them.
If you combine anti-Russian policy on the ethnic level with anti-Russian policy on the political level, with the alliance with the USA, you see that this is not just "Putins problem", its a Russian problem, Putin being just in charge when this conflict emerged. Its much more "Selenskis war", because he did everything to prevent a peaceful solution and was 100 % confrontational.

As for the censorship: The censorhip in Ukraine is as bad or in some respects worse as it is in Russia! And that's true despite all the money, all the Western media and Big Tech support is in favour of the Ukrainians! And you talk about the Russian counter measures, as if they are that much worse? They don't control the World Wide Web, like the Big Tech groups in the USA do, which skew and manipulate what you read, what you get to see, what you even think at the end of the day.
Or do they report as unbiased about the Ukrainian atrocities? Did they ever in the last 8 years?

No. It was Russia which tried the nice and legal way in the last 8 years, but got blocked by the USA and Ukraine all the time.

You have no sympathy for Russians, you have no sympathy for people which care about their ethnicity, cultural sphere and those which belong to it, granted, but you can't ignore if you are even remotely objective that this, all of this, was an attack on the Russian state and people led by the USA, which instrumentalised a corrupt regime, brought into power by the regional Ukrainian oligarchs, against Russia.

You don't like Putin and his regime, ok, but don't play moral if you don't use the same standards for all sides. Breaking laws and treaties? Atrocities? Suppression and censorship? Unwillingness to negotiate and come to terms with its old neighbour which had legitimate claims? There is no way anyone which looks at the conflict objectively can only blame the Russian side, that's beyond me and its beyond the Putin and autocracy debate. Because if one state and people suppress and attack, form a threat to another state and people, its the same rules, its the same standards, governmental form this or that, doesn't matter.
 
From my experience Germans support Putin because they hope that - in the future - Russia will help them in dividing Poland.


At least this is what Anthrogenica's German user Rothaer admitted to me, that it is his reason for supporting Putin in this war.


Second reason is that Russia will help Germany become more independent from the USA (Rothaer thinks that Germany is basically under American occupation since 1945).

=====


The reluctance and sluggishness with which Germany and Olaf Scholz are supposedly "helping" Ukraine indicates, that this is the official line of the German state as well.
 
^^^ Germany and Russia are "natural allies" against all countries located in-between them; while all countries located in-between Germany and Russia are "natural allies" against Germany and Russia. It is as simple as that and it has always been like that. Simply geopolitics.

The first time when Germans and Russians invaded Poland together, was already in the 11th century - 1000 years ago.
 
Poland has been in the European Union for 18 years, while our history is 1100 years long (or even much longer if we count pre-state times).


You have to think long term instead of getting deluded by the fact that Germany is - temporarily - our "ally" due to also being part of the EU.


The EU will most likely not last forever, while our biological descendants will be still here. Brexit showed that the EU is a very fragile creation.
 
German mentality is very similar to Russian mentality. Germans are by no means Western Europeans.

This is why West Europeans, who think differently, always miscalculated what Germany was planning:

 
Riverman said:
I'd agree in general, but here is the problem: One wrongdoing doesn't negate the other. They are both guilty. Period.

And the "provocation" was suppression of the Russians, of the pro-Russian sphere, persecution and purging, break of the treaties (Minsk I+II), no additional negotiations, just attacks on the Donbas people with the imminent threat of an attack, they already shelled the region. And while this happened, while this war became inevitable, the Ukrainians just provoked and armed up, with the US in the background. That means they attacked the Russians and the time was running in their favour. In a way, the Russians waited too long, because the new arms came in by the day. Militarily and politically, the situation was unbearable.



The Ukrainians were so arrogant and stupid to film some of their torture and mutiliation games. The footage is authentic often enough to make clear with what we're dealing with.

If there would an independent investigation, I'm sure both sides will have their transgressions, but some Ukrainian actions just stick out at the moment, and they really have the gut, the impertinence, the arrogance to publish it with pride. Some of the images being even shown in the Western media by the way, without recognising, without commenting on what the viewer actually sees. Because its about wounded and tortured soldiers, which being obviously pressured to make their "statements" in favour of the Ukraine. Its a disgrace, and only a few Western media pointed it out, that picturing soldiers which being obviously wounded and sometimes tortured that way. Its against the rules in "civilised warfare", but Ukraine did leave that ground from the start and did so in Donbas for quite some time.

The Ukrainians directly threatened the people of Donbas and the allies of Russia, broke the agreements (Minsk II), which they actually never implemented, and refused to negotiate. That's more than provocation and for the "declaration of war" - there was an ongoing war in Donbas, it never stopped, and its not because the Russians didn't try.

The main problem with the major escalation for me is that it hits normal Russians and Ukrainians. If it would only hit the decision makers of the Selenski regime, which are the primary responsible people for this catastrophy, I wouldn't have had any objections, because these are no innocents, they caused the escalation. Unfortunately a lot of good Russian and Ukrainian people get hurt in the process, that's my main problem. I completely understand why Russia did it and its impossible to blame them solely after what the Ukrainian regime did. But its still wrong from a humane perspective and should have been prevented. On the other hand, I can't blame the Russians for not trying, they tried everything and warned for quite some time - to their disadvantage, because all their good and honest efforts being just mocked and declined by the Selenski regime and the USA, while they armed up and prepared for war.
Even people with good will, which try to prevent the inevitable, have their limits. The Ukrainians pushed them over the limit and such a behaviour is unexcusable. They did really everything to push the Russians down and out, including harsh, criminal and unfair measures, which have nothing to do with Democracy and freedom by the way.

You can say Russia is not that nice to its opposition too, but the actions the Ukraine used, against the local Russian population and activists, are no way better and not just take the moral higher ground they might have otherwise had, but they caused the Russian reaction. Should the Russians just have watched and observed what they are doing? How they crash their people and allies, how they build up a force and threat at their South?

If the Ukrainians would have at least tried to negotiate, in a serious manner, it would be all different. But you can't just ignore a neighbour with legitimate interests and prepare for war against its protected minority without consequences. And the atrocities, including mutilation of POW and shelling of civilians, in Donbas are real, they are no fake, and it happened in the last 8 years.
Click to expand...


Torture and mutilation, you say?

Are you so naive that you believe ANYTHING claimed by those KGB-cum-Russian Mafia creatures that have hollowed out the Russian economy for their own advantage these last 30 years?
 
Tomenable said:
From my experience Germans support Putin because they hope that - in the future - Russia will help them in dividing Poland.


At least this is what Anthrogenica's German user Rothaer admitted to me, that it is his reason for supporting Putin in this war.


Second reason is that Russia will help Germany become more independent from the USA (Rothaer thinks that Germany is basically under American occupation since 1945).

=====


The reluctance and sluggishness with which Germany and Olaf Scholz are supposedly "helping" Ukraine indicates, that this is the official line of the German state as well.
Click to expand...


Looks nonsens to me, Germany has changed since ww2 and Scholz is clearly anti Putin.
 
Tomenable said:
From my experience Germans support Putin because they hope that - in the future - Russia will help them in dividing Poland.


At least this is what Anthrogenica's German user Rothaer admitted to me, that it is his reason for supporting Putin in this war.


Second reason is that Russia will help Germany become more independent from the USA (Rothaer thinks that Germany is basically under American occupation since 1945).

=====


The reluctance and sluggishness with which Germany and Olaf Scholz are supposedly "helping" Ukraine indicates, that this is the official line of the German state as well.
Click to expand...

Olaf Scholz? :laughing:

Seriously, you are in a conspiracy theory. Its not just Germany, France made even less, because France traditionally, doesn't want to be an American vassal and cares for European independence. There is a huge problem with resources, because who do you think will deliver gas and other natural resources if we cut ourselves off from Russia? You know the "Lebensraum ideology" Hitler had? Its because the most productive parts of Europe don't have the resources to keep their production going without external resources. And one of the major suppliers, already in the 19th century, was always Russia-Ukraine.
The question is therefore, who's controlling Russia and Ukraine. There are a couple of options:
- to conquer Russia, to make it deliver at will (Sweden: Charles XII, France: Napoleon I., Germany: Hitler = all failed)
- to ally up with Russia and getting the resources in a reciprocal, good mutual relationship (what Europe, especially Germany, Austria, Hungary, France did in the last decades and want to keep up)
- to erode the states of the East (Russia and Ukraine), infiltrate, manipulate and buy them out (American strategy, since 2014, with regime change, corruption, secret service interventions, cooperation with regional oligarchs and buying up local companies with Dollar Imperialism, like the USA did it, many times, in Latin America).

Do you know that Poland and Ukraine are particularly dependent on Russian gas? Even more so than Germany, Austria and Hungary? The only way they can "win" long term is by a "regime change" and the break up of the Russian Federation, which is just what the US intervention wants to achieve, and Biden, in his senile condition, already confessed.

Just imagine Russia would fall, would break up, would become "a Liberal state". That experiment failed with Yelzin, and in the current situation, it only would get worse. Oligarchs and American-British agents would just try to capture as much as possible, of the Russian wealth, and then the Europeans can buy from the American corporations and have indeed no free choice, being even more dependent from the USA.

Just imagine Russia would not fall, but Europe would cut itself off from the Russian resources, the lights would go out in Europe and the USA and the Arabs can never deliver the resources we need at the same price and quality, not even the quantity, at all. Do you know what that would mean for us? I think you didn't thought it through, you lack a sense for realpolitik. It will hit the Dutch too, don't make a mistake about that.

Russia is the much better source and partner in many respects, because its not as powerful and manipulative, doesn't interfere as much in internal politics as the USA do. Russia has neither the intention nor the capability of blackmailing Europe the same way as the USA do, because despite our dependence on its resources, its a mutual relationship. The more this gets deconstructed, by this unfair and idiotic sanctions, the more we hurt ourselves and won't be able to come back to the status quo ante in our relationship with Russia.

Any German chancellor which would therefore attack Russia, without any considerations for the national German interests, would be worse than the usual traitors. It would be wrong on every possible level, no matter from which perspective you look at it. Its the same for France, for austria, for Hungary and essentially for all of Europe, even those states which, because of their anti-Russian grudge, don't realise it now. Which still have the Russian threat more pressing in their minds, from the past, than what the USA already beginning to do with them.
Ukraine and Poland can't prosper, in the next decades, without Russian gas and resources themselves.

There is no choice but between good relationships with Russia, a total war or poverty.

The Ukrainians weren't even able to pay for the low price the Russians offered them in the past, do you think they can pay for American and Arab gas and keep up their production? Many talked about the huge steel factory in Eastern Ukraine which got hit recently and will be under Russian control. With which energy do they produce steel cheaply? What do you think? With Russian gas of course!
Being cut off, they can't be profitable any more. Same goes for many companies and factories throughout Europe by the way. Here in Austria alone a whole mass of factories and productions can only work the way they do with Russian gas.

The Americans just wanted, with their money, colonise Ukraine and potentially Russia like they do it with 3rd World countries, like they did it in Latin America! You think that's in the Ukrainian-Russian interest, long term? To come under the Dollar control?

Its the same as it is with the mass media: How else but with state protection can you stand against that onslaught? Against that "manipulative super power" which can just print money and press all agendas in the mass media, including World Wide Web and social media? How can Russia protect its interest and independence, if they "open up". That's what they learned in the Yelzin era, even if they want Democracy, open up to a Liberal society, they will just be sold out and manipulated, because they are no match in money and propaganda for the US giant.

And we already saw in the Ukraine: Do you know how much land foreign investors bought there? How much of the production being in the hands of the Ukrainians? If you first subtract what was still in the hands of the Ukrainian oligarchs, not foreign investors, well, where do you think you land? That's really a 3rd World country profile of total foreign dependence. That they got American weapons and armed up just fits into this picture, I wonder how they want to pay for the weapons and the gas they get from the USA and foreign sources?
What do you think? Ukraine will be degraded to an American colony, and quite obviously, the same process is the plan for the Russia if they "open up", if the US agents can stage a "regime change".

You think that's in the interest of the Russian people? Do you really see the Ukrainians doing so much better than the Russians? I don't.

But its up to the Ukrainians, if they get the right to vote, that's the good thing about democracy. But if the Russian parts of the country don't want to go that path, if Russia wants to save its interests and independence, by intervening, its also understandable.

Selenski should just have accepted the departure of Donbas and Crimea, staying neutral. That's all the Russians wanted initially, no more. It was fair, everything considered, the path they took. But he didn't even negotiate, didn't even try to come to terms, even though he promised it in his damned election campaign - in which the oligarchs and US services were already involved. And he proceed with his confrontational course, because the Americans and the oligarchs like Kolomoyskyi wanted it.

I respect the will of the Ukrainians to change their fate, democratically, they should do it, hopefully with less manipulation by the oligarchs and US services at some point, but its their right and nobody should take it away. But if Russian people in the East don't want to be in this US sphere of influence and rather join their Russian motherland, its their right as well, and Russia surely has a right on these territories and to save its interests as well.
The confrontation which will come up from these two legitimate claims should have been solved peacefully, diplomatically, with mutual respect. Selenski showed no intention for a peaceful diplomatic solution, and no respect, so who's to blame for the diplomatic failure?
 
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