Y-DNA from Germany in the 300s-400s AD shows 58% frequency of I1 and not much R1b

Thank you IronSide!
 
Ironside,

Thanks for the map. I'm going to make a sticky of it in the ancient dna section.
 
It's cool isn't it? and it gets updated whenever a new study reports something new.
 
I think it's great. I would like to make a slide show of the DNA that shows the progression of Y and mt (of course of those known). I suppose I'll need to quit my job to have time to do it.
 
Ed the Red said:
Ok, my 2 cents, why does 23 and me humble Irish and British together? They shouldn't have completely similar DNA because English wouldn't have penetrated more than N Ireland. Is it a possible concept that R1bU106 was mixed with Celts before the Anglo-Saxons invaded England? After all the Belgae which give name to modern Belgium were a Celtic tribe.
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There were both East Belgium,'Tungrians' and 'Mixed Germanic tribsmen' serving as Roman cavalry and soldiers, stationed at 'Birrens' Roman fort in Scotland, Dumfries, in Cohorts of a thousand strong, since the first century AD.
 
Sonnenburg said:
Interesting, very...
I encountered another map by Maciamo Hay. Phylogenetic Tree of
I1 Z140 Last updated: May 2017. According to that map I1 Z140 had *Y6910 of Nordic Bronze Age that split into A11341 and Y6885 both went to Britain and Ireland.
I am *Y6910 so, I am selfish here, my ancestors ( last name ) came from Leipzig area that would be in agreement of the statement that Ancient Germania was populated by I1 Haplogroup.
I would like to find out where did
I1 Z140 *Y6910 originate in Ancient Germania?
I am negative on both A11341 and Y6885, that means my ancestors didn't go to Britain or Ireland, even though they had to be 'relatives'...
I can't post a map, I guess I'm not 'important' enough. It's Eupedia map by Maciamo Hay.
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I would believe that I-Y6910 originated somewhere in the Northern Germany-Jutland area. If I recall correctly it is downstream of I-A196. I would like some ancient DNA to be Z140 positive.

Your I-Y6910* line is not positive for the downstream SNPs that traveled to Britain & Ireland, while you are related to those people you are not related for a very long time.

Ed the Red said:
Is it possible an earlier branch of R1b U106 came to Britain before Anglo - Saxon
Which basically means that SOME Celts and Germans were indistinguishable genetically. I say fuk ya!
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Is it possible? Maybe. So far it isn't looking to be likely. Both R-U106 samples found at Driffield Terrace were autosomally some concoction of Germanic (one of them appeared to be Celto-Germanic). One of them was positive for the defining House of Wettin SNP, many Roman auxiliaries settled down in Roman Britain with their families. We must also remember that there were a large number of Germanic foederati troops in Roman Britain coming from tribes such as Tungri, Frisiavones, Batavi, and other groups. I also think it is worth mentioning the Marcomannic chieftain Fraomar who, with his followers, was shipped off to Britain after he is stripped of his chieftainship.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were some Anglo-Saxon foederati in Britain in these days. The coming of the Anglo-Saxons doesn't appear to be this full-scale invasion as was previously thought.

In regards to some Celts and Germans being indistinguishable are you referring to the Y-line (which is such a small portion of ancestry) or do you mean autosomal? Both the Celts and Germanic peoples have similar origin populations in varying proportions (reflected in autosomal DNA) and are rather similar if we don't get down to the microscopic differences.
 
paul333 said:
There were both East Belgium,'Tungrians' and 'Mixed Germanic tribsmen' serving as Roman cavalry and soldiers, stationed at 'Birrens' Roman fort in Scotland, Dumfries, in Cohorts of a thousand strong, since the first century AD.
Click to expand...

This website is a goldmine for information on various forts throughout Roman Britain.

EDIT: Adding link to page of irregular auxiliary units in Roman Britain.
 
paul333 said:
There were both East Belgium,'Tungrians' and 'Mixed Germanic tribsmen' serving as Roman cavalry and soldiers, stationed at 'Birrens' Roman fort in Scotland, Dumfries, in Cohorts of a thousand strong, since the first century AD.
Click to expand...

Even Caesar notes the Belgae on both sides of the channel as well as other belgic tribes like the atrebates and menapii. This proves my point of the R1b U106 haplogroup as being spread already through Britain before the Anglo-Saxons.
 
spruithean said:
I would believe that I-Y6910 originated somewhere in the Northern Germany-Jutland area. If I recall correctly it is downstream of I-A196. I would like some ancient DNA to be Z140 positive.

Your I-Y6910* line is not positive for the downstream SNPs that traveled to Britain & Ireland, while you are related to those people you are not related for a very long time.



Is it possible? Maybe. So far it isn't looking to be likely. Both R-U106 samples found at Driffield Terrace were autosomally some concoction of Germanic (one of them appeared to be Celto-Germanic). One of them was positive for the defining House of Wettin SNP, many Roman auxiliaries settled down in Roman Britain with their families. We must also remember that there were a large number of Germanic foederati troops in Roman Britain coming from tribes such as Tungri, Frisiavones, Batavi, and other groups. I also think it is worth mentioning the Marcomannic chieftain Fraomar who, with his followers, was shipped off to Britain after he is stripped of his chieftainship.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were some Anglo-Saxon foederati in Britain in these days. The coming of the Anglo-Saxons doesn't appear to be this full-scale invasion as was previously thought.

In regards to some Celts and Germans being indistinguishable are you referring to the Y-line (which is such a small portion of ancestry) or do you mean autosomal? Both the Celts and Germanic peoples have similar origin populations in varying proportions (reflected in autosomal DNA) and are rather similar if we don't get down to the microscopic differences.
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I don't think there is any better way to trace ancestry than your Y-dna, it is an unbroken line as long as you have a son. Autosomally has definitely made populations less definitive in regards with tests like 23 and me.
 
Celts and Germans have very similar origins regarding the Indo-Europeans. The most basic description is Germans went north mixing with Baltic elements, and Celts went south mixing with Mediterranean elements.
 
Ed the Red said:
I don't think there is any better way to trace ancestry than your Y-dna, it is an unbroken line as long as you have a son. Autosomally has definitely made populations less definitive in regards with tests like 23 and me.
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Trouble using this method, you are then accepting the information of others ( experts ) as proof of Ancestry, which has its dangers if incorrect. I am having problems already and I have only had my Y-DNA results a short time. Genetics is in its early stages and seems to be full of misstakes, I would continue with a paper trail separate to the DNA, at the moment, as I cannot trust the information I have received from my LivingDNA test results.
 
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The only confusion with Y-dna would be if you and your dad or brother had different Y-dna. In that case the explanation would be adoption or the milk man!
 
Ed the Red said:
The only confusion with Y-dna would be if you and your dad or brother had different Y-dna. In that case the explanation would be adoption or the milk man!
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Agree, but Ancestry is as much about finding out where your family came from, and at the moment following my Y-DNA results from LivingDNA, I havent a clue..
 
Ed the Red said:
Even Caesar notes the Belgae on both sides of the channel as well as other belgic tribes like the atrebates and menapii. This proves my point of the R1b U106 haplogroup as being spread already through Britain before the Anglo-Saxons.
Click to expand...

seemingly the today pops of N-E France (North the Seine so in Bemgae territories) shows less Y-R1b-U106 than Germanic speaking pops of France and Belgium and the same cline exists in the Netherlands where the maxi of U106 is in North among Frisians - So I don't think U106 was so dense among Belgae, AS A WHOLE - but as already said "Belgia" of the time was rather a patchwork and nothing excludes that some isolated downstream SNP's of U106 could have been born among some tribes of ancient Belgia, maybe not of Celtic origin - so yes U106 were maybe present in Britain before Saxons, under the global label of "Belgae", whatever their true language.
 
MOESAN said:
seemingly the today pops of N-E France (North the Seine so in Bemgae territories) shows less Y-R1b-U106 than Germanic speaking pops of France and Belgium and the same cline exists in the Netherlands where the maxi of U106 is in North among Frisians - So I don't think U106 was so dense among Belgae, AS A WHOLE - but as already said "Belgia" of the time was rather a patchwork and nothing excludes that some isolated downstream SNP's of U106 could have been born among some tribes of ancient Belgia, maybe not of Celtic origin - so yes U106 were maybe present in Britain before Saxons, under the global label of "Belgae", whatever their true language.
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I don't think anyone can be certain if subclades of U106 can be determined as being German unless there is no evidence of U106 or its subclades in Britain before Anglo-Saxons. I think I have a valid point that if belgic tribes were already in Britain before Anglo-Saxons than that could be a sign of branching of the same tribes diverting to both Celtic (Belgae) and then German (Anglo-Saxons). I'll have to do a little googling on that one.
 
Alot of the U106 could've moved out of Belgium with belgic tribes in Roman times or even before Romans. Maybe the dominance of U106 in Britain can also be attributed to these migrations?
 
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