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Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

Maleth said:
I don't think we have much evidence for either theories. What is for sure is that we more and more now that ancient Greece had similar markers to those found at present from all the evidence we have say in other areas were they expanded, that is coast of Turkey and Italy and beyond. So present day Haplos can give some kind of indication.
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I'm assuming it would be difficult to actually determine, probably going with current populations is a good indicator, but at the same time looking at neolithic is proving to be different than what many previously thought, there is the founding myth that Taranto was founded by Spartan men, so maybe looking at the Y of Taranto and the surronding areas will be a good indication? Was there any current reseach done with the Y frequencies of Taranto, I wonder that would be interesting.
 
If the claim is that the highest concentration of E-V13 is in Austria (I presume the poster meant the Tyrol), that's incorrect. The highest concentration is just northwest of Greece.

I don't know why, now that ancient dna has shown us the trail of E-V13 from the Levant, then in Anatolia, then in southern Europe, we would think it parsimonious to posit some speculative spread by people originating in the steppe to explain the Tyrol and Wales. Also, I don't give all that much credence to physical anthropology to explain these local population hotspots, but there's the famous "Dinaric" Tyrolese physical type to explain as well: not at all "Celtic" to my eyes. Indeed, some of them look very "Greek" to my eyes. Of course, I'm braced to have someone tell me she looks completely "something" northern given the kind of "classifications" I see on here.

fkqiih.png


She looks like a Kouros to me:
8441840851236373123


Years ago Dienekes speculated E-V13 underwent a Bronze Age expansion from the Aegean if I recall correctly. That was certainly what I speculated at the time, particularly because there are attested archaeological movements from Anatolia, through the Aegean into mainland Greece and on into the Balkans all the way from the mid-to-late Neolithic into the Bronze Age.

Then we have Sarno et al dating the E-V13 in Italy to the first millennium BC, which correlates very nicely indeed with the Greek colonization of southern Italy and Greece, and trading in the north, and particularly with the Adriatic side of Italy.

Now, until we get more ancient dna supporting this argument we obviously can't be certain, but it's certainly a more parsimonious explanation than some speculative spread by means of the Celts. As for the Welsh pockets of E-V13, Wales was for thousands of years a famous mining area. I would think the more parsimonious explanation is that it's some founder effect in an isolated area from the Atlantic Bronze Age. Not to worry, people, I'm sure autosomally they're totally "British". Y dna is a small amount of one's entire genetic code.
 
Maleth said:
E-V13 might be the most dominant however they as a society it compromises any other groups including R1b and J2 for example. Maybe one has to go deeper into were the different groups came from before the classical era. Regards to Neolithic finds we have E-V13 as old as 7000 BP.

These are extracts from more recent papers. 2014 study

On the other hand, Y-chromosome lineage E-V13 is thought to have originated in southern Balkans [53]–[54] and then to have spread in Sicily at high frequencies with the Greek colonization of the island [8].

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074

quote - In Europe, certain sub-haplogroups of G and specifically E-V13 were detected in ancient DNA, including Linear Band Keramik (LBK) remains from Central Europe (ca. 8000 y BP), Epicardial skeletons from Iberia (7000 y BP), South of France Late Neolithic (5000 y BP), and a Tyrol specimen (5300 y BP) [77, 78, 79, 80].- end quote

https://investigativegenetics.biomed...323-016-0032-8
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IIRC, did not a recent paper this claender year about Cyprus state E-V13 originated in cyprus of southern Turkey ?
 
Sile said:
IIRC, did not a recent paper this claender year about Cyprus state E-V13 originated in cyprus of southern Turkey ?
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This is what the paper stated:-

Conclusions

Analyses of Cypriot haplogroup data are consistent with two stages of prehistoric settlement. E-V13 and E-M34 are widespread, and PCA suggests sourcing them to the Balkans and Levant/Anatolia, respectively.

https://investigativegenetics.biomed...323-016-0032-8
 
Azzurro said:
I'm assuming it would be difficult to actually determine, probably going with current populations is a good indicator, but at the same time looking at neolithic is proving to be different than what many previously thought, there is the founding myth that Taranto was founded by Spartan men, so maybe looking at the Y of Taranto and the surronding areas will be a good indication? Was there any current reseach done with the Y frequencies of Taranto, I wonder that would be interesting.
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Its difficult to use Taranto as a Measure since the original Spartan settlement has been diluted with known new Roman settlements which probably had diluted the original source. it is also believed to have been totally ransacked by the Saracens in the 900's and its population taken into slavery.
 
Maleth said:
Its difficult to use Taranto as a Measure since the original Spartan settlement has been diluted with known new Roman settlements which probably had diluted the original source. it is also believed to have been totally ransacked by the Saracens in the 900's and its population taken into slavery.
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There still must be some descendants of the Spartan colonists in surrounding villages and general area, it probably wouldn't have disappeared entirely, but I get what your saying that events in history may change demographics, but at the same time some original must be there as well.
 
Azzurro said:
There still must be some descendants of the Spartan colonists in surrounding villages and general area, it probably wouldn't have disappeared entirely, but I get what your saying that events in history may change demographics, but at the same time some original must be there as well.
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Taranto would fall under the county of Apulia which comprises of many more towns and villages. According to Eupidia these are the main HG's.
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: L, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Apulia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"](10)[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"](4)[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"](1)[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"](15)[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]13[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]117[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]52[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]94[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]13[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]82[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: L, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: other, align: center"]426[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: left, width: 180"][/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]I1 2.5%[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]I 2b1 1%[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]0%[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]I2a 3.5%[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]R1a 3%[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]R1b 27.5%[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]G 12%[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]J2 22%[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]J*+J1 3%[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]E1b1b 19%[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"] T 1.5%[/TD]
[TD="class: L, align: center"]0%[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Maleth said:
Taranto would fall under the county of Apulia which comprises of many more towns and villages. According to Eupidia these are the main HG's.
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: L, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: fixed, width: 970"]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: left"]Apulia[/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"](10)[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"](4)[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"](1)[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"](15)[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]13[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]117[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]52[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]94[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]13[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]82[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="class: L, align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0[/TD]
[TD="class: other, align: center"]426[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: left, width: 180"][/TD]
[TD="class: I1, align: center"]I1 2.5%[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]I 2b1 1%[/TD]
[TD="class: I2b, align: center"]0%[/TD]
[TD="class: I2, align: center"]I2a 3.5%[/TD]
[TD="class: R1a, align: center"]R1a 3%[/TD]
[TD="class: R1b, align: center"]R1b 27.5%[/TD]
[TD="class: G2a, align: center"]G 12%[/TD]
[TD="class: J2, align: center"]J2 22%[/TD]
[TD="class: J1, align: center"]J*+J1 3%[/TD]
[TD="class: E1b, align: center"]E1b1b 19%[/TD]
[TD="class: T, align: center"] T 1.5%[/TD]
[TD="class: L, align: center"]0%[/TD]
[TD="class: Q, align: center"]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
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Yes I am aware of that, it is also not far from my dads paternal village, I have been to Taranto, nice city, you could even argue that Matera would be similar to Taranto as they share the same Ionian coast.
 
Azzurro said:
Yes I am aware of that, it is also not far from my dads paternal village, I have been to Taranto, nice city, you could even argue that Matera would be similar to Taranto as they share the same Ionian coast.
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I have not been to Taranto, but maybe one day. I was lucky to visit the region last April, Ostuni, Lecce and a couple of villages. Missed visiting Matera as we had no time. A very nice experience.
 
Maleth said:
I have not been to Taranto, but maybe one day. I was lucky to visit the region last April, Ostuni, Lecce and a couple of villages. Missed visiting Matera as we had no time. A very nice experience.
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Matera is a gem, its really nice and historical, they filmed the Passion of the Christ there, how was Lecce? Heard nice things about it along with Otranto,I have never been pasted Taranto on that coast.
 
Azzurro said:
Matera is a gem, its really nice and historical, they filmed the Passion of the Christ there, how was Lecce? Heard nice things about it along with Otranto,I have never been pasted Taranto on that coast.
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Lecce has some awesome buildings and felt particularly familiar as the stone used is very similar to the local stone (soft light limestone) and very similar architecture too in the historical centres. Well worth a visit. I hope I will be able to visit Matera some day.
 
E-V13 is quite a bit higher in Austria than I would have expected. However, I believe both the levels of R1a and I1 are comparable to it. R1b still encompassed just over 50% of the male sample, and there was an even split between U106, U152 and P312(XU152). This is going on the latest data from a recent study which is from a paper under a paywall in 2016. I would expect some of these E-V13 are recent immigrants from the Balkans, but it's really difficult to determine since there is no ancient culture which seems linked with this group.
 
Maciamo said:
Ancient mtDNA indeed indicate that prehistoric Basques were closer to modern Near Easterners
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Much excellent evidence regarding mtDNA findings amongst ancient Basques. Is there any report on y-DNA frequencies from ancient Basque burial grounds anywhere?
 
This article says that :- "The Illyrians have more mysterious origins, but judging from the modern haplogroup frequencies in the Dinaric Alps, they surely were predominantly a blend of R1a and I2a1b."

Now the questions its why you judge from haplogroup in the ex Yougoslavia and you not judge the halpogroup of the Albanians which are the only who speak the language of ancient Illyrians ... !! This its ridiculous ... Yougoslavians come from slavs and spoke a slavic language and you cant see their halpogroup to understand the halpogroup of the Illyrians ...!! But first you have to see the Albanians ... !!!
 
I read the first page, just wondering how accurate are those findings? I am asking since other haplogroups have been found since 2008.
 
Those are merely hypotheses. Mycenaeans turned out to be J2.
 
Maciamo said:
A little update based on new information.

All haplogroups I are the indigenous people of Europe, the direct descendants of Cro-Magnon (it isn't R1b as previously thought). This is why I is found everywhere in Europe at low frequencies, except I1 which remained strong in Germanic countries. A pocket of I2a1a (M26) survived in Sardinia because of it's relative isolation. I2a1b (M423) seems to have adopted agriculture early on around the Carpathians and is thought to have migrated to the Dinaric Alps around 1000 BCE with the Illyrians, where it survives in over 50% of male lineages in most of Bosnia and Croatia.

Ancient Greeks

The Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I2, E1b1b, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Levant was picked up in Anatolia along the way by Levantine farmers and herders.

Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E1b1b too.

Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Pontic steppes via the Balkans. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1b-L23 and/or R1a. The Thracians, who emerged as a blend of Indo-European R1a and Neolithic I2a1b, are also responsible for the higher density of I2a1b and R1a in northern Greece.

Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E1b1b) were already well-established and numerous by that time.

Ancient Anatolians

Southern Anatolia was colonised early by Neolithic farmers and herders from the Fertile Crescent (E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2, T).

The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites (1750 BCE), the Lydians and Lycians (1450 BCE), Phrygians (1200 BE) and the Proto-Armenians (1200 BCE). All were probably predominantly R1b-L23, considering its high percentage in the regions they settled. R1b Indo-Europeans are thought to have originated on the north-eastern shores of the Black Sea, just north of the Caucasus. They could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

Later R1b were possibly (part of) the Sea Peoples that ravaged the ancient Near Eastern civilizations, from Greece to Egypt. Their advance military technology and sea-based culture make of them very good candidates.

The Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration (around 700 BCE) from the Pontic Steppe. By that time the steppe would have been thoroughly overrun by R1a people, so that was probably the Cimmerians's main haplogroup. They are said to have be expelled from Anatolia and moved to Europe, where they joined the other R1b people. Germanic and Celtic people both claim (partial) Cimmerian ancestry.


Romans, Celts and Germans

Celtic, Italic and Germanic people are all descended from the same R1b-L11 stock. They split north of the Alps, in modern Germany. They also incorporated a sizeable minority of G2a3b1 and J2b2 lineages, especially the Celts and the Italics.

The Italic branch went south and mixed with the Terramare people who were I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b. Northern Italians have more Indo-European Celto-Italic blood, while southern Italian have more indigenous blood (the highest being Sardinia, then Basilicata).

The Germanic branch moved north and mixed with the indigenous I1 and I2a2 people, who had already mixed with R1a migrants from the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture. The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of autochthonous haplogroup I.

Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. All of them mixed with I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b people from the Megalithic cultures. The Alpine and Rhino-Danubian Celts also encountered I2a2 people.

It is likely that the language of the indigenous Europeans influenced the various Celtic, Italic and Germanic dialects. Germanic languages diverted the most from the original European R1b language because it assimilated a very large part of aborigines.

From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from western Anatolia or some Aegean islands, and brought mostly haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J2 and R1b-L23 with them. The Greeks in Italy brought a similar admixture, but with a higher proportion of E1b1b. The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E1b1b, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a1.
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Thank u so much it took me 5 days to find these info
 
Athanasios said:
Thank u so much it took me 5 days to find these info
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A friendly comment: a lot has changed in our understanding of these subjects since that post in 2009
 
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