Y DNA J1 and J2 - Semetic/Neolithic Farmers and Mesopotamia. European J-P58.

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patrizio22

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Location
Paris, France
Y-DNA haplogroup
j-z1884
mtDNA haplogroup
U5a1a1
italian j1, questions about my haplogroup

Hello,

I'm from central Italy, Marche region on the Adriatic Coast, According to the Genographic Project my paternal lineage is J-Z1884 which should be J1. My maternal line is U5a1a1. I'm from a indoeuropean celtic/italic area but we are on the Appenine mountains which have a tradition of sheepherders. In Italy we had the Etruscans in Tuscany and the ancient Greeks in the south who should have partially anatolian origins. We didn't have major arabic invasions except in parts of Sicily where they were later chased away by the Normans. I know that in the appenines we have J1, G2a and T.

Is my haplogroup J1? Has it a neolithic origin carried by farmers from the middle east? Could it have Greek or Etruscan origins? As I said in central and northern Italy we didn't have arabic invasions after the fall of the roman empire. I'm not an expert, just an italian interested in prehistory and don't find any information about this particular haplogroup.

Please, help,

Thanks,

Regards,

Patrizio22
 
patrizio22 said:
Hello,

I'm from central Italy, Marche region on the Adriatic Coast, According to the Genographic Project my paternal lineage is J-Z1884 which should be J1. My maternal line is U5a1a1. I'm from a indoeuropean celtic/italic area but we are on the Appenine mountains which have a tradition of sheepherders. In Italy we had the Etruscans in Tuscany and the ancient Greeks in the south who should have partially anatolian origins. We didn't have major arabic invasions except in parts of Sicily where they were later chased away by the Normans. I know that in the appenines we have J1, G2a and T.

Is my haplogroup J1? Has it a neolithic origin carried by farmers from the middle east? Could it have Greek or Etruscan origins? As I said in central and northern Italy we didn't have arabic invasions after the fall of the roman empire. I'm not an expert, just an italian interested in prehistory and don't find any information about this particular haplogroup.

Please, help,

Thanks,

Regards,

Patrizio22
Click to expand...

Hello, I have found out that my haplogroup J-Z1884 is J1, comes along the line after P58 and is 5300 years old. From my haplogroup separated about 4600 years ago three haplogroups, two are found in Europe and west Asia (J1-YSC76 and J1-Z640) and the other is the semitic branch J1-FGC11 which is linked to islam and jews and arabic countries.
So, if my haplogroup precedes the semitic branch, it shouldn't be linked to medieval muslim invasions which are absent in central Italy.

Therefore, where was my haplogroup 5300 years ago? To whom it belonged? When did it come to central Italy? Central italy has belonged to the pope from the 9th to the end of the 19th century so it wasn't the best turistic destination for medieval muslims. Is it late neolithic farmers? I don't know whether the source is reliable, a web site. I'm not authorized to copy a link here.

The website is haplogruplarwordpress and the article is Haplogroup J1 (J1-M267)

Any opinion? I'm not really an expert.

Thanks
[h=1][/h]
 
patrizio22 said:
Hello, I have found out that my haplogroup J-Z1884 is J1, comes along the line after P58 and is 5300 years old. From my haplogroup separated about 4600 years ago three haplogroups, two are found in Europe and west Asia (J1-YSC76 and J1-Z640) and the other is the semitic branch J1-FGC11 which is linked to islam and jews and arabic countries.
So, if my haplogroup precedes the semitic branch, it shouldn't be linked to medieval muslim invasions which are absent in central Italy.

Therefore, where was my haplogroup 5300 years ago? To whom it belonged? When did it come to central Italy? Central italy has belonged to the pope from the 9th to the end of the 19th century so it wasn't the best turistic destination for medieval muslims. Is it late neolithic farmers? I don't know whether the source is reliable, a web site. I'm not authorized to copy a link here.
...
Click to expand...

Welcome to Eupedia!

I gather that you are afraid that J-Z1884 is, or should be considered to be, Semitic and/or Middle Eastern. Things don't quite work like that. Many haplogroups seem to have spent some time in the region now called the Middle East. Some were Semitic, others weren't. Some men stayed, some didn't. Some left centuries or millennia before the rise of Judaism and Islam. Some came back generations later.

As you mentioned, the branch most closely associated with Semitic peoples is a different one from the one you have. You can't simply say, "J1, oh that's Arab and/or Jewish" any more than you can say "R1b, oh that's Celtic", "I1? OMG Vikings!!11!1!one", or "R1a, must be Russian, da".

Here are some things to get you started:

Detailed SNP map of J, at the J-Z1884 node: http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1884/
The same SNP map, at J-P58: http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-P58/
Eupedia article on J1: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml
 
Like Lebrok posted, nobody has a good idea what J1's history is. Lots of ancient DNA is needed to understand the origins/history of J1. There's already an example of J1*(J1 branch that is rare or extinct today) in Russia dating 7,500 years and Georgia dating 13,000 years. Like you said Z1884 is under P58 which is typical for Semetic speakers, but like RobertColumbia posted that doesn't mean your J1 is Semetic. It is very unlikely your paternal line is from Medieval Arabic Muslims, it's probably from different West Asian people who arrived earlier and could have been Semetic.

My guess is most J1 in Italy and the rest of Europe arrived after 4000 BC from West Asia. It looks like post-4000 BC West Asian ancestry is significant part of the genetic origins Italy and areas surrounding Greece. It could represent 1/3 or slightly more of total ancestry. If many people from West Asia(maybe Turkey or Levant-Israel area) settled in Italy between 4000 BC and 500 BC, that'd mean they're the main source of Y DNA J and E1b in Italy today.

EDIT: Your mtDNA U5a1a1, is a dead-ringer for Ancient Russia/Ukraine. DNA from old bones documents its origins in that region and migration to the rest of Europe around 5,000-4,000 years ago.
 
Thanks a lot. I don't belong to any monotheistic religion so I'm quite open to any result, I just thought, since I'm not an expert, that a semitic branch indicated a later arrival and could give me an idea as to the period of arrival but apparently it's not that simple. In italy, Phoenician colonies were just in Sicily, there were two. A Medieval muslim immigrations was just in Sicily where they were later ousted by the Normans. It looks like in the region of Puglia, the heel of the Italian boot, there were also a few muslims. There was obviously a middle eastern immigration during the roman empire and also slaves and possibly soldiers taken from the region. My region, the Marche on the Adriatic coast, despite being occupied by indoeuropean celts in the two northern provinces and indoeuropean italics in the two southern provinces, has apparently a low percentage of R1b. Lower than northern Italy. There are a lot of J1, J2, G2a, T probably because of the Appennine mountains where sheep herding was common. So, like Fire haired14 said, it should be an arrival later than late neolithic. Thanks
 
patrizio22 said:
Thanks a lot. I don't belong to any monotheistic religion so I'm quite open to any result, I just thought, since I'm not an expert, that a semitic branch indicated a later arrival and could give me an idea as to the period of arrival but apparently it's not that simple. In italy, Phoenician colonies were just in Sicily, there were two. A Medieval muslim immigrations was just in Sicily where they were later ousted by the Normans. It looks like in the region of Puglia, the heel of the Italian boot, there were also a few muslims. There was obviously a middle eastern immigration during the roman empire and also slaves and possibly soldiers taken from the region. My region, the Marche on the Adriatic coast, despite being occupied by indoeuropean celts in the two northern provinces and indoeuropean italics in the two southern provinces, has apparently a low percentage of R1b. Lower than northern Italy. There are a lot of J1, J2, G2a, T probably because of the Appennine mountains where sheep herding was common. So, like Fire haired14 said, it should be an arrival later than late neolithic. Thanks
Click to expand...

IIRC the southern part of Marche was settled by South Picene people who had Sabellic speech but where of Sabine and sabellic stock
Marche was known in ancient times as the Picenum territory.
North Picene was as some say from Liburnian-illyrian stock.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picenum

http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/s/sabellic.html

I think the north Picene was settled later by gallic semnones tribe
 
Hello. Yeah, the first settlers considered indoeuropeans were the italic tribes who came from north of the Alps 1200 years BC and occupied most of Italy. That's what they say. The gauls came from north of the Alps about 400 BC and occupied the northern Italian area up to the middle of my region which was probably previously all italic (picentes). Tuscany, on the western side, was instead still occupied by the Etruscans. So, it could be that some of those italic were not indoeuropeans after all. Thanks, I'll check out that Illyrian thing
 
Ok, so, he south of the Adriatic coast was colonized by the Illyrians and apparently in that region (Puglia) they have an awful lot of J1. The Illyrians are regarded as indoeuropeans but perhaps coming from the balkans carried also J1.
 
Good find: the total frequency of the haplgroup J1 is 0.7% in Italy. I really don't know much about your subclade though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267#Europe


Fire Haired14 said:
Like Lebrok posted, nobody has a good idea what J1's history is. Lots of ancient DNA is needed to understand the origins/history of J1. There's already an example of J1*(J1 branch that is rare or extinct today) in Russia dating 7,500 years and Georgia dating 13,000 years. Like you said Z1884 is under P58 which is typical for Semetic speakers, but like RobertColumbia posted that doesn't mean your J1 is Semetic. It is very unlikely your paternal line is from Medieval Arabic Muslims, it's probably from different West Asian people who arrived earlier and could have been Semetic.


My guess is most J1 in Italy and the rest of Europe arrived after 4000 BC from West Asia. It looks like post-4000 BC West Asian ancestry is significant part of the genetic origins Italy and areas surrounding Greece. It could represent 1/3 or slightly more of total ancestry. If many people from West Asia(maybe Turkey or Levant-Israel area) settled in Italy between 4000 BC and 500 BC, that'd mean they're the main source of Y DNA J and E1b in Italy today.


EDIT: Your mtDNA U5a1a1, is a dead-ringer for Ancient Russia/Ukraine. DNA from old bones documents its origins in that region and migration to the rest of Europe around 5,000-4,000 years ago.
Click to expand...


Haplogroups J2, J1 and E1b1b have been found both in Neoltich and Mesolitich remains in Europe.
 
Hello, As you said my maternal line U5a1a1 should be linked to immigration from Ukraine. But there's one thing I don't understand. Even if my y haplogroup is J-z1884, my physical traits should be 50 per cent dad and 50 per cent mom or something like this. Now, my mom's contribution to my physical traits, do they come from all the women on her line or from her father, my grandfather? Thanks
 
patrizio22 said:
Hello, As you said my maternal line U5a1a1 should be linked to immigration from Ukraine. But there's one thing I don't understand. Even if my y haplogroup is J-z1884, my physical traits should be 50 per cent dad and 50 per cent mom or something like this. Now, my mom's contribution to my physical traits, do they come from all the women on her line or from her father, my grandfather? Thanks
Click to expand...

For traits that are expressed in autosomal DNA (that is, nearly all of them), there should be a half and half contribution from each parent. Due to the randomness that happens during each generation, this does not mean that you will have exactly 25% of your autosomal DNA from each grandparent, because the DNA of each of your parents was "mixed up" at the time of your conception and you might have, e.g., received more of dad's mom and mom's dad (and less of dad's dad and mom's mom) due to the "roll of the dice", as they say. 50% of your autosomal DNA still came from each parent, but that 50% might favor one grandparent or the other. Consider this analogy. Put 10 red balls and 10 blue balls in a jar, shake them up, and then draw 10 balls at random (put them back afterwards). Will you always get exactly 5 red and 5 blue out? No. Does the jar still contain an equal number of red and blue balls? Yes.

In my own family, it has been observed that my face is very similar to my father's father and that my brother's face looks similar to my mother's father. We both have y-haplogroup R-M222 and mt-haplogroup H1bi.
 
patrizio22 said:
Hello, As you said my maternal line U5a1a1 should be linked to immigration from Ukraine. But there's one thing I don't understand. Even if my y haplogroup is J-z1884, my physical traits should be 50 per cent dad and 50 per cent mom or something like this. Now, my mom's contribution to my physical traits, do they come from all the women on her line or from her father, my grandfather? Thanks
Click to expand...

the 50 -50 split is with your mother only............beyond this the split halves again and again and again.............
on your mums side it comes from maternal and paternal
 
Hello. According to the scientific articles you may read, it looks like five different middle-eastern of north african lineages living in different places decided all together to come to greece and italy exactly 8000 years ago, probably on the same day. They must have gone to the same travel agent. I think it's more complicated. Probably they kept coming through the bronze and even iron age. Anyway, in central and southern italy around the appennine mountains the most common cheese is pecorino, sheep milk cheese. It must be linked to sheep herders from the middle east. You find the some cheese in Sardinia which has the most neolithic people in europe along with the basque region.
 
patrizio22 said:
Thanks a lot. I don't belong to any monotheistic religion so I'm quite open to any result, I just thought, since I'm not an expert, that a semitic branch indicated a later arrival and could give me an idea as to the period of arrival but apparently it's not that simple. In italy, Phoenician colonies were just in Sicily, there were two. A Medieval muslim immigrations was just in Sicily where they were later ousted by the Normans. It looks like in the region of Puglia, the heel of the Italian boot, there were also a few muslims. There was obviously a middle eastern immigration during the roman empire and also slaves and possibly soldiers taken from the region. My region, the Marche on the Adriatic coast, despite being occupied by indoeuropean celts in the two northern provinces and indoeuropean italics in the two southern provinces, has apparently a low percentage of R1b. Lower than northern Italy. There are a lot of J1, J2, G2a, T probably because of the Appennine mountains where sheep herding was common. So, like Fire haired14 said, it should be an arrival later than late neolithic. Thanks
Click to expand...
Phoenicians settled in Sardinia (six colonies) and in the western tip of Sicily (two colonies) but I think they mostly carried J2 because modern Lebanon is pred J2 while some J1 there entered via Arabians (Ghassanids and muslim conquest).
 
It's the italian project made by Ethnopedia Facebook page
 
Hello, there's also the Eupedia website but I don't know whether is reliable. There's a spreadsheet of italian haplogroups by regions in Eupedia on Eupedia home/Genetics/Haplogroups Home/Italian genetics. Sorry but I'm a new member and can't paste links. The article is called genetic history of the italians.
 
patrizio22 said:
Hello, there's also the Eupedia website but I don't know whether is reliable. There's a spreadsheet of italian haplogroups by regions in Eupedia on Eupedia home/Genetics/Haplogroups Home/Italian genetics. Sorry but I'm a new member and can't paste links. The article is called genetic history of the italians.
Click to expand...
I know, if you look at the percentages are similar to the Ethnopedia's table. At the same time the same studies like Boattini, Brisighelli and many others had similar percentages.
 
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