Yamna: "25% ENF, 30-35% ANE", and 40-45% WHG

South Asian is a hybrid component in any sense. in some calculators Gedrosia gets broken up into "South Asian and some ither components. So I assume that this "South Asian" is actually a portion of Gedrosia. Mal'ta did also have this "South Asian" admixture which later turned out as Gedrosia. And some of the "European" in the Mal'ta paper turned out as Caucasus.

As seen on results on Iranians in Dodecad v3 (~10% South Asian) vs k12b(30% Gedrosia) respectively. So it is fit to imagine the actual Gedrosia frequency three times higher.

thats roughly 21% Gedrosia.

Itwill beinteresting to see the Yamna DNA in k12b.

I agree that the 'South Asian' is only one part of Gedrosia. The rest is probably hidden within 'West Asian'. If Gedrosia is exactly 'South Asian' + 'West Asian' (unlikely it is a perfect match though), the Yamna samples would have 22 to 29% of Gedrosian. 25% is a reasonable average, which corresponds to what is found in eastern Turkey, Armenia, Georgia and the Northeast Caucasus.

English and Scottish people have 11% to 13% of Gedrosian respectively, presumably about half of the Yamna people. That makes sense since English people have 40% of Yamna DNA, and Scottish people 50% according to Haak et al. 2015.

A high percentage of R1b isn't always a sign of high Yamna ancestry as demonstrated by the case of the Spaniards, and the Basques. Spaniards have only 25 to 30% of Yamna DNA despite having similar R1b levels as British people. Their Gedrosia ranges from 5% (Galicia) to 7.5% (Catalonia). The Basques reach 9%. So there is a correlation to the total R1b percentage in Iberia too, but the ratio isn't the same as in Britain because R1b arrived later and in a more diluted form in Iberia. At equal R1b frequency, the Spanish Gedrosian admixture is half that of the British, and so is their total Yamna admixture. However one looks at it, the Gedrosia to Yamna ratio remains stable though, about 1:4. This means that Yamna people did indeed have approximately 25% of Gedrosian admixture. Everything checks out.
 
The North _sea component was present before the IE, among the SHG.
Motala12 has 34,36 of it, and Ajv58 ans70 have More than 31% and 33 %.

I didn't check these samples. That means that the modern North Sea admixture is a compound of two different sources; about half from Mesolithic northern Europeans, and half from R1b Indo-Europeans. That also explains why the 'North Sea' can exceed 40% today, which is more than Yamna (25%) or Mesolithic Scandinavia (33%).

Just like the Gedrosian can be split in West Asian and South Asian, 'North Sea' should be split in two (e.g. Northwest Europe + Caspian Sea).
 
I checked the population averages for K15 and the Saami of Finland also lack East Med, West Med, Red Sea, West Asian and South Asian, like Karelia and Samara. However they differ in a big way in that the Saami have 12% of Atlantic, where the Mesolithic Karelia and Samara had 0%. Motala12 (Mesolithic Sweden) also had the Atlantic admixture though.

North Sea
Atlantic
Baltic
Eastern_Euro
Finnish Saami17.712.220.127.0
Mesolithic Karelia23.70.118.940.4
Mesolithic Samara25.5017.741.7
Mesolithic Sweden 34.310.126.927.5

Interestingly Mesolithic R1a and R1b from Russia both have more 'North Sea' than modern Saami, even though Mesolithic Scandinavians had the most 'North Sea' (about 33%). If percentages don't seem to add up, it's because the Saami have also 20% of Siberian admixture. If we take that out, we get:


North Sea
Atlantic
Baltic
Eastern_Euro
Pre-Uralic Saami22.115.325.133.8


The Atlantic admixture might have come from a Mesolithic migration from Iberia, perhaps the one that brought mt-haplogroup V.
 
I don't have access to the Eurogenes population spreadsheets but I could access the Dodecad ones. Armenians in Globe 13 are 48.5 West Asian and 50 per cent what could be roughly called ENF like (20.6 SW Asian and 29.2 Med). Half of that is 24 for West Asian and 25 For ENF. How does that in any way conflict with the Reich Lab formulation that these people were half Armenian like?

Genetiker has run the Yamma sample through Dodecad and MDLF. Very interesting.
 
I agree that the 'South Asian' is only one part of Gedrosia. The rest is probably hidden within 'West Asian'. If Gedrosia is exactly 'South Asian' + 'West Asian' (unlikely it is a perfect match though), the Yamna samples would have 22 to 29% of Gedrosian. 25% is a reasonable average, which corresponds to what is found in eastern Turkey, Armenia, Georgia and the Northeast Caucasus.

English and Scottish people have 11% to 13% of Gedrosian respectively, presumably about half of the Yamna people. That makes sense since English people have 40% of Yamna DNA, and Scottish people 50% according to Haak et al. 2015.

A high percentage of R1b isn't always a sign of high Yamna ancestry as demonstrated by the case of the Spaniards, and the Basques. Spaniards have only 25 to 30% of Yamna DNA despite having similar R1b levels as British people. Their Gedrosia ranges from 5% (Galicia) to 7.5% (Catalonia). The Basques reach 9%. So there is a correlation to the total R1b percentage in Iberia too, but the ratio isn't the same as in Britain because R1b arrived later and in a more diluted form in Iberia. At equal R1b frequency, the Spanish Gedrosian admixture is half that of the British, and so is their total Yamna admixture. However one looks at it, the Gedrosia to Yamna ratio remains stable though, about 1:4. This means that Yamna people did indeed have approximately 25% of Gedrosian admixture. Everything checks out.


~21% was just a low estimate thats why I edited my previous comment. I agree it is probably around ~25%. I don't think that Gedrosia is a hybrid component. contrary I think "South Asian" is one because South Asian can be divided into two extremely distinct groups. ANI which is West Eurasian and plots side by side with "West Asian", and ASI which is East Eurasian and plots next to Onge.
 
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I don't have access to the Eurogenes population spreadsheets but I could access the Dodecad ones. Armenians in Globe 13 are 48.5 West Asian and 50 per cent what could be roughly called ENF like (20.6 SW Asian and 29.2 Med). Half of that is 24 for West Asian and 25 For ENF. How does that in any way conflict with the Reich Lab formulation that these people were half Armenian like?

Genetiker has run the Yamma sample through Dodecad and MDLF. Very interesting.


Well actually it does. The notion that half of his ancestry is "Armenian" like confused allot of people.

Now looking at the genetiker Dodecad results. It's out of my comprehension, why they used to describe the Near Eastern half as "Armenian like".

The k12b results show his West Asian is pred. Gedrosia with 26% and "only" 7% Caucasus. How on earth did they came to the idea that this could be Armenian like. if Armenians are among the "least" Gedrosia (17%) like population in that region? And at the same time with the highest frequency of ENF (78%).

Kurd, Azeri (Leila Tepe, Kura Araxes) and even Georgians(Maykop, Kura Araxes) would have been a better proxy since they have higher Gedrosia and less ENF.
 
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The strong K12b-Gedrosia predominance and paucity of K12b-Caucasus+Atlantic_Med in Yamna, Samara-HG, Corded yet more supports my theory that Yamna are linked to Central Asia+Iran/Afghanistan rather than Caucasus+Kurdistan. I bet Central Asian hunter-gatherers like Kelteminar people must have been even more K12b-'Gedrosian'.
On the other hand, K12b-'Caucasus' is ANE from ENF farmers. If R1b is related to herders from the south, which I doubt, then they must have come from eastern Iran or even more from east. Else R1b-269 is hunter-gatherer central asian.
 
The strong K12b-Gedrosia predominance and paucity of K12b-Caucasus+Atlantic_Med in Yamna, Samara-HG, Corded yet more supports my theory that Yamna are linked to Central Asia+Iran/Afghanistan rather than Caucasus+Kurdistan. I bet Central Asian hunter-gatherers like Kelteminar people must have been even more K12b-'Gedrosian'.
On the other hand, K12b-'Caucasus' is ANE from ENF farmers. If R1b is related to herders from the south, which I doubt, then they must have come from eastern Iran or even more from east. Else R1b-269 is hunter-gatherer central asian.

I have also thought about this, and it is indeed possible that they took the South_Central Asian instead of the Caucasus route but ultimately they must have started from the Zagros_Taurus area because Gedrosia is like a twin of Caucasus and one part of "West Asian" while it is relatively distinct from the other components in South_Central Asia.

But than I realized that South_Central Asia has significantly more South Eurasian + Oceanian admixture.

And the ANE+South Eurasian figures for the Near Eastern part fit rather Kurdistan/Caucasus.

What could however have been the case is that Oceanian (ASI) admixture came late to South_Central Asia. But what could have also been the case is that Gedrosia was once stronger in Kurdistan until further migrations deluted it's frequency. Remember Gedrosia peaks in Balochi tribes who are Northwest Iranic and originally from somewhere in Kurdistan according to their own oral traditions. And additional to that the older Kurgans in Kura Araxes and Maykop.


To be honest when I think of it, I really start to believe that these genes in Yamna are so ancient/archaic that they are not well separable into our modern components.
I mean look at the HAAK paper. Up to K19 half of the Yamna ancestry is in a green color which peaks in Western Asian and North Caucasian populations. Until in K20 suddenly half of this green component turns into WHG grey and some distinct Yamna blue component.


Maciamo might be right, it almost seems like some of these genes can't "Decide" where to belong to, as if they are closer to the roots of two modern components. For example maybe some of this "North Sea" and "Baltic" component might be very archaic and represent something which is both "West Asian" and "North European" alike in once. This would explain why the fst distances do not fit well with the Dodecad/Eurogenes admixture results.

Take a look
1zaj3ukg5qe.jpg
2217ouzrt3i.jpg
 
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I checked the population averages for K15 and the Saami of Finland also lack East Med, West Med, Red Sea, West Asian and South Asian, like Karelia and Samara. However they differ in a big way in that the Saami have 12% of Atlantic, where the Mesolithic Karelia and Samara had 0%. Motala12 (Mesolithic Sweden) also had the Atlantic admixture though.

North Sea
Atlantic
Baltic
Eastern_Euro
Finnish Saami17.712.220.127.0
Mesolithic Karelia23.70.118.940.4
Mesolithic Samara25.5017.741.7
Mesolithic Sweden34.310.126.927.5

Interestingly Mesolithic R1a and R1b from Russia both have more 'North Sea' than modern Saami, even though Mesolithic Scandinavians had the most 'North Sea' (about 33%). If percentages don't seem to add up, it's because the Saami have also 20% of Siberian admixture. If we take that out, we get:


North Sea
Atlantic
Baltic
Eastern_Euro
Pre-Uralic Saami22.115.325.133.8


The Atlantic admixture might have come from a Mesolithic migration from Iberia, perhaps the one that brought mt-haplogroup V.

All those components were created from modern genomes and have ENF admixture inside of them. We know Sami have ENF ancestry because on PCAs they plot south by the Volga-Ural not way up north by Mesolithic Europeans. mtDNA V is fairly common in Neolithic farmers. It can defiantly be a near eastern lineage.
 
All those components were created from modern genomes and have ENF admixture inside of them. We know Sami have ENF ancestry because on PCAs they plot south by the Volga-Ural not way up north by Mesolithic Europeans. mtDNA V is fairly common in Neolithic farmers. It can defiantly be a near eastern lineage.

this is the link to the plotting of all of HAAK samples

http://www.elisanet.fi/mauri_my/tiedostot/pca1o.gif
 
Here are the K15 admixtures for all the Yamna, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker samples.

As I predicted no Red Sea admixture in the Yamna (nor Corded Ware) samples, and only traces (<1%) in the German Bell Beaker ones. I have linked this admixture to haplogroup E1b1b and T.
T could be the culprit, though it is so hard to connect it with any known population movement or cultural changes, which needed to start in Africa, went through Turkey, then Balkans into North-East Europe and finished in Finland. If it is not Paleolithic or Neolithic in Eastern Europe, and not even early bronze age.
It does show in Late Neolithic in Germany, but these trace amounts might have been carried by first farmers to Europe. However Eastern Europe has elevated levels, compared to the West, that could only come later with separate migration.

Who can we connect Red Sea admixture to? Jewish diaspora or red Sea People? ;)

Perhaps a slow accumulation of smaller migrations from Near East through millennia.
 
T could be the culprit, though it is so hard to connect it with any known population movement or cultural changes, which needed to start in Africa, went through Turkey, then Balkans into North-East Europe and finished in Finland. If it is not Paleolithic or Neolithic in Eastern Europe, and not even early bronze age.
It does show in Late Neolithic in Germany, but these trace amounts might have been carried by first farmers to Europe. However Eastern Europe has elevated levels, compared to the West, that could only come later with separate migration.

Who can we connect Red Sea admixture to? Jewish diaspora or red Sea People? ;)

Perhaps a slow accumulation of smaller migrations from Near East through millennia.

but the T1a and G2a bones found in CW and BB lands in germany are nearly 2000 years older than any yamnya samples. Is it not logical that these where in central germany still with living descendents when yamnya people entered and these combined into and form BB and CW

haak paper does date all the samples


the likely scenario is 2 routes
1 - from south caspian sea lands , along west side of caspian sea, along the terek river which brings you to the black sea in north caucasus area

2 - from south caspian sea lands , along south side of black sea into europe

both would carry Gedrosian.............T has lots of Gedrosian and west asian in it...............it is know as west-asian marker
 
Genetiker has run the Yamma sample through Dodecad and MDLF. Very interesting.

Thanks for pointing that out. Here are the analyses of the Karelia, Samara, Yamna, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker samples (actually just one of each, not an average).

The results for the Gedrosian admixture (K12b) are:

Sample
Gedrosian admixture
Mesolithic Karelia
6.05
Mesolithic Samara
12.98
Yamna
26.29
Corded Ware
21.94
German Bell Beaker
9.62

This is just what I expected for Yamna. I am a bit perplexed over the two Mesolithic samples through. I shows that the Gedrosian admixture already existed in basal R1a and R1b with no West Asian admixture. That points to a Palaeolithic R1* origin of some of the Gedrosian. However, since Yamna and Corded Ware people have much more of it, it means that some Gedrosian also came from West Asia. That would mean that Gedrosian is not a pure admixture, but a compound, most likely of West Asian, South Asian, and perhaps also what K15 reports as Amerindian, which would be a sort of ANE. That explains why Gedrosia and ANE do not match at all in regions like Northeast Europe, which have a lot of ANE, but little Gedrosian.
 
All those components were created from modern genomes and have ENF admixture inside of them. We know Sami have ENF ancestry because on PCAs they plot south by the Volga-Ural not way up north by Mesolithic Europeans. mtDNA V is fairly common in Neolithic farmers. It can defiantly be a near eastern lineage.

Then I suppose the ENF must be hiding behind the Atlantic component. The Karelia and Samara genomes lacked both ENF and Atlantic. It may not be so simple because Motala12 didn't have ENF either but had 10% of Atlantic.
 
Here is a comparison of the Dodecad K12 (aka dv3) frequencies (the ones I used most for the autosomal maps on this site).


Dodecad K12 admixtures

Admixture
Karelia
SamaraYamnaCorded Ware
Bell Beaker
West European50.02%52.07%49.08%48.97%61.53%
East European33.82%30.85%20.88%21.05%8.94%
Mediterranean0%0%0.47%9.04%19.21%
West Asian0%0%17.42%15.65%2.61%
Southwest Asian0%0%0%0.02%5.29%
South Asian3.48%8.75%8.42%5.27%0.01%
Southeast Asian0%0.05%0%0%0%
Northeast Asian12.68%8.27%3.74%0%0%
Northwest African
0%0%0%0%0%
East African
0%0%0%0%0%
Neo African
0%0%0%0%0.69%


First of all, it looks like the Amerindian admixture from K15 becomes Northeast Asian in dv3. I assumed that this admixture was a shared component with haplogroup Q, since Q and R evolved from a same Siberian ancestor. Nevertheless, I can't explain why modern West Europeans and even Bell Beaker samples completely lack that admixture if it was present in all R1a and R1b population, including Yamna and Corded Ware. If modern Northwest Europeans inherited about half of their genes from Yamna people, then they should at least have 1 or 2% of Northeast Asian, but it is closer to 0.1%. One explanation is that this Amerindian or Northeast Asian admixture wasn't part of the Mesolithic R1a and R1b gene pool, and that it is only found in the Volga region and Karelia because R1a and R1b people intermarried with Siberian people (Proto-Uralic or pre-Uralic). The R1b people from the Black Sea region, who moved to the Balkans then up to the Danube to Germany (Bell Beaker, then Unetice) almost certainly lacked that Amerindian/Siberian/Northeast Asian admixture. There is no other way to explain its sudden drop to 0% in the Bell Beaker R1b.

What is also surprising is how different the Bell Beaker sample is from the Yamna and Corded Ware. It looks like over half of the Bell Beaker genes came from the Neolithic population of Germany, particularly high in Mediterranean (linked to G2a) and Southwest Asian (linked to J1 and T1a), but comprising also Mesolithic genes (hg I1 and I2, or mtDNA U4 and U5) reported as West European.

Another remarkable thing is that Yamna and Corded Ware people both had 50% of West European admixture, and only 20% of East European. I expected that for R1b Yamna Indo-Europeans, since they brought their genes from the steppe to Western Europe. It is less clear why the R1a population of the Corded Ware wasn't closer to the modern Balto-Slavic R1a people. It suggests that Balto-Slavic people do not descend mostly from the Corded Ware, but rather from other cultures further north like the Fatyanovo–Balanovo culture. Although archaeologically it looks like an eastern extension of th Corded Ware, there may only have been a minority of Corded Ware R1a-M458 moving into an essentially R1a-Z280 + I2a1 territory. The Corded Ware itself would have been created by a movement of R1b-L23 people into R1a-M458 territory. Therefore Fatyanovo–Balanovo may have been mainly R1a-Z280 and I2a1 with substantial minorities of R1a-M458 and R1b-L23 from Corded Ware.

I always said that R1b Yamna people were pushed out of the Pontic Steppe by R1a people from the north during the Catacomb culture. These R1a people would have come from the Fatyanovo–Balanovo culture. We only have mtDNA samples from the Catacomb culture, but they are a radical shift from Yamna and Corded Ware samples. Haplogroup U4 jumps from 5% in Yamna and CW to 25% in Catacomb, which I believe is a sign of the arrival of a mostly R1a population with more East European admixture. Catacomb samples are characteristic by their absence of mt-haplogroup K, T, W and X, all West Asian haplogroups that would have come from the South Caucasus/Kurdistan. I expect that these Catacomb samples will lack West Asian admixture just like the Mesolithic Karelia and Samara HG. On the other hand they have 10% of mtDNA C4, which is surely the source of the Amerindian/Siberian admixture in Mesolithic Karelia and Samara.
 
Here is a comparison of the Dodecad K12 (aka dv3) frequencies (the ones I used most for the autosomal maps on this site).


Dodecad K12 admixtures

Admixture
Karelia
SamaraYamnaCorded Ware
Bell Beaker
West European50.02%52.07%49.08%48.97%61.53%
East European33.82%30.85%20.88%21.05%8.94%
Mediterranean0%0%0.47%9.04%19.21%
West Asian0%0%17.42%15.65%2.61%
Southwest Asian0%0%0%0.02%5.29%
South Asian3.48%8.75%8.42%5.27%0.01%
Southeast Asian0%0.05%0%0%0%
Northeast Asian12.68%8.27%3.74%0%0%
Northwest African
0%0%0%0%0%
East African
0%0%0%0%0%
Neo African
0%0%0%0%0.69%


First of all, it looks like the Amerindian admixture from K15 becomes Northeast Asian in dv3. I assumed that this admixture was a shared component with haplogroup Q, since Q and R evolved from a same Siberian ancestor. Nevertheless, I can't explain why modern West Europeans and even Bell Beaker samples completely lack that admixture if it was present in all R1a and R1b population, including Yamna and Corded Ware. If modern Northwest Europeans inherited about half of their genes from Yamna people, then they should at least have 1 or 2% of Northeast Asian, but it is closer to 0.1%. One explanation is that this Amerindian or Northeast Asian admixture wasn't part of the Mesolithic R1a and R1b gene pool, and that it is only found in the Volga region and Karelia because R1a and R1b people intermarried with Siberian people (Proto-Uralic or pre-Uralic). The R1b people from the Black Sea region, who moved to the Balkans then up to the Danube to Germany (Bell Beaker, then Unetice) almost certainly lacked that Amerindian/Siberian/Northeast Asian admixture. There is no other way to explain its sudden drop to 0% in the Bell Beaker R1b.

What is also surprising is how different the Bell Beaker sample is from the Yamna and Corded Ware. It looks like over half of the Bell Beaker genes came from the Neolithic population of Germany, particularly high in Mediterranean (linked to G2a) and Southwest Asian (linked to J1 and T1a), but comprising also Mesolithic genes (hg I1 and I2, or mtDNA U4 and U5) reported as West European.

Another remarkable thing is that Yamna and Corded Ware people both had 50% of West European admixture, and only 20% of East European. I expected that for R1b Yamna Indo-Europeans, since they brought their genes from the steppe to Western Europe. It is less clear why the R1a population of the Corded Ware wasn't closer to the modern Balto-Slavic R1a people. It suggests that Balto-Slavic people do not descend mostly from the Corded Ware, but rather from other cultures further north like the Fatyanovo–Balanovo culture. Although archaeologically it looks like an eastern extension of th Corded Ware, there may only have been a minority of Corded Ware R1a-M458 moving into an essentially R1a-Z280 + I2a1 territory. The Corded Ware itself would have been created by a movement of R1b-L23 people into R1a-M458 territory. Therefore Fatyanovo–Balanovo may have been mainly R1a-Z280 and I2a1 with substantial minorities of R1a-M458 and R1b-L23 from Corded Ware.

I always said that R1b Yamna people were pushed out of the Pontic Steppe by R1a people from the north during the Catacomb culture. These R1a people would have come from the Fatyanovo–Balanovo culture. We only have mtDNA samples from the Catacomb culture, but they are a radical shift from Yamna and Corded Ware samples. Haplogroup U4 jumps from 5% in Yamna and CW to 25% in Catacomb, which I believe is a sign of the arrival of a mostly R1a population with more East European admixture. Catacomb samples are characteristic by their absence of mt-haplogroup K, T, W and X, all West Asian haplogroups that would have come from the South Caucasus/Kurdistan. I expect that these Catacomb samples will lack West Asian admixture just like the Mesolithic Karelia and Samara HG. On the other hand they have 10% of mtDNA C4, which is surely the source of the Amerindian/Siberian admixture in Mesolithic Karelia and Samara.

what do you mean aka dv3?

from last month, when I ran dv3 elsewhere, it has, as of today given me different results plus it is now situated on the top ( when it was in third spot ) and indication that it has recently been amended...............is this you?

mine K12b is the same

#PopulationPercent
1Atlantic_Med35.43
2North_European31.73
3Caucasus18.92
4Gedrosia7.19
5Southwest_Asian5.01
6Northwest_African1.64


and the Dv3
Population
East_European11.63%
West_European37.66%
Mediterranean32.05%
Neo_African-
West_Asian13.26%
South_Asian-
Northeast_Asian-
Southeast_Asian0.32%
East_African-
Southwest_Asian3.54%
Northwest_African1.54%
Palaeo_African-
 
what do you mean aka dv3?

from last month, when I ran dv3 elsewhere, it has, as of today given me different results plus it is now situated on the top ( when it was in third spot ) and indication that it has recently been amended...............is this you?

mine K12b is the same

#PopulationPercent
1Atlantic_Med35.43
2North_European31.73
3Caucasus18.92
4Gedrosia7.19
5Southwest_Asian5.01
6Northwest_African1.64


and the Dv3

I don't know what you are talking about. Dv3 means Dodecad version 3, which is K=12.
 
I don't know what you are talking about. Dv3 means Dodecad version 3, which is K=12.

then there are 2 versions....Dv3 ( which is k=12 ) and also K12b in operation at present

which do you refer too
 
[QUOTE = Maciamo; 451257] Ensuite, je suppose l'ENF doit se cacher derrière la composante de l'Atlantique. Les génomes Carélie et Samara manquaient ENF et de l'Atlantique. Il peut ne pas être si simple parce Motala12 ne avait pas non plus, mais ENF eu 10% de l'Atlantique. [/ QUOTE]

Dans Eurogenes K8, la composante de l'Atlantique est composé de 45.81 du WHG, 42.17 of ENF and 12.01 of ANE
 
I don't understand, i posted my previous message in english and it's translated in french
 

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