E1b1b1a1b (V-13): Balkan or Middle Eastern?

albanopolis said:
Indians of North America why did not they become white?
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Most Tribes Followed A Hunter Gatherer Lifestyle, And If We Look To Paleolithic Populations Who Also Were Hunter Gatherers, We See That These Populations Also Had Darker Skin Because Of Their Lifestyle, So One Could Make This Correlation, Also There Is More Sun Exposure In The Americas Than In Europe.
 
Anthro-inclined said:
This Is Actually Not Completely Correct, Many Inuit Have Light Skin Pigmentation, And It Is Rare When They Carry Noticabley Darker Skin Pigmentations Than Europeans.
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Exactly. Plus Inuit have tradition of starting eating seals or other mammals from their fresh liver. Liver is the "warehouse" of the body. Place where essential to life elements are stored. Among them vitamin D3. They compensate lack of sun and D3 production in skin, by fresh liver diet. Cooking process will disintegrate vitamins, including D3.

It should be added that apart from lighter skin or affinity for fresh liver, there is other known mutation for helping to survive up north. Mutation that allows burning more fats, or burning them faster, to keep body warmer in colder climates. Inuit have them, Asiatic tundra tribes, and also norther Europeans, although I'm not sure if it the same mutation or independent one.

Skin Pigmentation Also Is Correlated To Lifestyle, In Northern Less Sunsoaked Areas, This Was The Case In Europe, Once Europe Recieved Agriculture It Is Believed That A Couple Thousand Years Later Euro Developed Lighter Skin.
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Interesting, though it might have been coincidental. When comparing spread of agriculture through Europe and pigmentation of skin, it looks like the places where farming came last are the whitest. Having said that, farming and herding greatly increased population numbers and density, therefore probability for more and quicker mutations.
 
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albanopolis said:
Indians of North America why did not they become white?
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If you mean white as Europeans, answer is that they didn't develop same white skin mutation(s) of Europeans.
Compare skin pigmentation of natives through North America and you will see that the ones from Mexico have darker skin than natives from Canada. It shows you that there is a correlation between human skin color and climatic zones.

The difficult question is why Natives from around equator in America didn't develop (or returned to) black skin color, like Nigerians have? Wasn't it necessary, because of development of clothes? Do we have weaker sun than 200k years ago? They've completely lost black skin DNA? Not just deactivated but completely lost from genome?
 
Since I am not literate in genetics, how come all halogroups were formed some 5000 or more years ago, what happened after this time from 5000 to now, why did the change stoped? I mean no new halogroups?
 
Indians of North America moved southwards quite fast when they entered the new continent in search of warmer climates. North America in general does not have a huge shortage of sunlight, like North Europe does. Do not forget that white skin gives a survival advantage in places with little sunlight. It has nothing to do with temperature. For example, a cold place with relatively prolonged sunshine through the year is very different from a cold, constantly cloudy place. Therefore, a paler skin did not seem to give an evolutionary advantage to the first people of North America, thus their skin remained relatively dark.
 
Alexandros said:
Indians of North America moved southwards quite fast when they entered the new continent in search of warmer climates. North America in general does not have a huge shortage of sunlight, like North Europe does. Do not forget that white skin gives a survival advantage in places with little sunlight. It has nothing to do with temperature. For example, a cold place with relatively prolonged sunshine through the year is very different from a cold, constantly cloudy place. Therefore, a paler skin did not seem to give an evolutionary advantage to the first people of North America, thus their skin remained relatively dark.
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Its estimated that they populated north America 20 000 yrs ago. Canada region to Alaska has the long nights the same way North Europe has. And still Indians of America are not pale, closely resembling mongol tribes. Or take South Africa. They live 30 degrees south of equator with the same sun light like Lebanon or Greece and see the difference. So sun not so convincing.
 
It is the diet of cow's milk, curds, cheese and goat milk, cheese that gave the europoid looks. Even Hg E an african haplogroup looks europoid. Cattle and goats were domesticated independently in Central Asia, North Africa and India 15,000 years ago.
 
oriental said:
It is the diet of cow's milk, curds, cheese and goat milk, cheese that gave the europoid looks. Even Hg E an african haplogroup looks europoid. Cattle and goats were domesticated independently in Central Asia, North Africa and India 15,000 years ago.
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Nutrition could have an impact on the stature of the individual, or let say the inteligence of the individual if you beleive that thought is the product of brain, but why should have an impact on DNA?
 
albanopolis said:
Its estimated that they populated north America 20 000 yrs ago. Canada region to Alaska has the long nights the same way North Europe has. And still Indians of America are not pale, closely resembling mongol tribes. Or take South Africa. They live 30 degrees south of equator with the same sun light like Lebanon or Greece and see the difference. So sun not so convincing.
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The English Is A Bit Marred Here, But I'll Try And Contest Some Of Your Points. First Of All The Exact Date Of The Populating Of The Americas Is Unkown, But The Most Wide Spread And Oldest HG In The Americas Is Q Which Developed Into Q-M3 10 To 15 Thousand YBP, Most Likely In Beringia, And Then Moved Into The Americas. So Genetics Cannot Prove A 20000 Year Entry. Also Just Because Two Regions Are At The Same Distance From The Equator Dosent Mean They Recieve The Same Sunlight, As Enviormental Factors Like Climate Conditions And Other Enviormental Conditons Must Be Taken Into Account. Finally You Are Correct When Thinking That Sunlight Is Not The Only Factor When Determining Skin Pigmentation, As Nutrition Plays A Role And Lifstyle.
 
why should have an impact on DNA?
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The DNA is like a house. The material you use will determine how the house will function. However nature doesn't wait for the "right" material. The construction schedule is fixed and it will build with whatever is available. That is why the northern people don't have vegetables, fruits and spices so they lack melanin and other stuff. The lack of melanin could mean lighter skin, blond or red hair, blue/green eyes, freckles, etc. The DNA compensates for whatever it lacks and build on other substitutes.
 
chinese cheese, they're going to look caucasian, lol
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If it weren't for the consumption especially during the growing stages of calcium in the milk and milk products the E Hg would look African as it is an African haplogroup.

Many Canadian Chinese have more pronounced nose bridges larger than Asian Chinese as they eat Pizzas and consume western foods. My nephew and youngest sister has rather large noses compared to the rest of us.

I may be wrong on the skin situation though. If you remove the hairs on a chimpanzee you will notice the skin colour is pinkish as well as a chicken without feathers. The African's black skin is really an adaptation to losing our hairs as explained by Dr Wells in the case of the San in the Namibian desert who ran down their prey. The hairs were lost to reduce heat build up from running. The black skinned Africans may have resulted from forest dwelling as black skin is a good camouflage in the shadows of the trees for hunting and warfare and the sun tan. The San people are brownish which would be more suited to the brown sand rather than having black. Brown skin blends better in the desert.
 
oriental said:
If it weren't for the consumption especially during the growing stages of calcium in the milk and milk products the E Hg would look African as it is an African haplogroup.

Many Canadian Chinese have more pronounced nose bridges larger than Asian Chinese as they eat Pizzas and consume western foods. My nephew and youngest sister has rather large noses compared to the rest of us.

I may be wrong on the skin situation though. If you remove the hairs on a chimpanzee you will notice the skin colour is pinkish as well as a chicken without feathers. The African's black skin is really an adaptation to losing our hairs as explained by Dr Wells in the case of the San in the Namibian desert who ran down their prey. The hairs were lost to reduce heat build up from running. The black skinned Africans may have resulted from forest dwelling as black skin is a good camouflage in the shadows of the trees for hunting and warfare and the sun tan. The San people are brownish which would be more suited to the brown sand rather than having black. Brown skin blends better in the desert.
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Putting a specific skin colour and phenotype to a Haplogroup, is always an abitrary thing to do. there is no telling what the people who pocessed the lineage E 20000 years ago looked like, as Y DNA is simply a small segment of our overall genetic composition, so be careful when making such huge claims.
As for you and your nephew, The consumption of western foods within the last generation or so will have no direct affect on your phenotype, it is most likely a coincidence that you and your nephew have differing noses, also the width of ones nose is determined by genetics, not food, due to the air moisture and tempture in China, overtime your ancestors began developing noses that would do well in the conditions that the enviorment presented.
The last part of your reply is just to hilarious for me to adress, that part about camoflage just killed me. Nonetheless i see no scientific evidence to back your camoflage theory, but if you can provide some by all means show me, lol.
 
may have resulted from forest dwelling as black skin is a good camouflage
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See the word "MAY", it is just a speculation.
 
No harm done. I am here for fun. I am not a geneticist. I just have an extremely wide knowledge. I was good at all subjects in school took all kinds of courses. Hated poetry though.
 
PaschalisB said:
The origin of E1b1b1a is for sure african according to almost all sources. As regards V-13 the most prevalent theory is that it arrived to the balkans (where it is mostly found today) from the middle-east. There are some theories though that claim that the particular haplogroup arose in the balkans. Is there any evidence that could support this theory?
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New info from a recent study on Bulgaria posted by Maciamo should help shed some light on this.
Haplogroup E-V13 displays a star-like network radiating from a central haplotype mainly found in the Balkan populations. This pattern, together with coalescence estimates, points to a recent and rapid expansion of this lineage in the Balkans. Not considering Bosnian Croats and Macedonian Greeks, for which standard errors are too large, the highest age in the Balkans, dating back to Mesolithic times, is found in Western Bulgaria (9.3±3 kya). This value, which overlaps that registered in Turkey (10.6±3 kya), indicates that haplogroup E-V13 was already present (if not originated) in Mesolithic times in Western Bulgaria from where it underwent expansion with the transition to farming.
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So it seems to suggest an origin in the Balkans. There is way more about it in the study give it a read, other info on the Balkan gene pool there to. Here's the link.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0056779
 
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