E1b1b1a1b (V-13): Balkan or Middle Eastern?

[Djordjo]

First carrier of e-v13 probably came to Europe from the direction of near east, but very very long time ago, and e-v13 gradually spread over most of Europe before indoeuropeans came, so e-v13 is an very old european haplogroup, as much as g2a, there's no any doubt about that. As more ancient DNA is being analized, more comprenhensive picture we will have about ancient europeans.

 

[MOESAN]

No they are not very dark, plus they eat raw liver to get more vitamin D3. The picture you posted is with tanned hunter, he spends a lot of time outside. What about this one?

hard to have a precise answer ti these problems of adaptation; too mechanical explanations of selection-adaptations are a bit naive -
I suppose the adaptation for very firstable undadapted tribes would have been crossings with more adapted people (a very light rate of crossing would be sufficient - time 'll do the rest -
let's take the skin colour example: people living in cold climates are supposed to developpe if possible (needed mutation) light skins: but we see almost all the light skinned people as eurasians, northern mongoloid people ('nordics' and north-finnic too) can tan very easily (not to mistake with red haired freckled milky skins and yet even them can tan in some way, after very progressive exposure to sun!) - and in cold region, dry, sun is more often present than in misty N-W-oceanic regions of Europe): what occurs??? the skin tans and become again darker!!! what remains of the complete total mechanical explanation? the pre-supposed solution for fixing D is falling down: ligher to get V-D by sun exposure AND darker because of sun exposure so less V-D fixed-
our explanations are all of them only partly satisfying - and genetic diversity + different diets give a lot pf diverse responses to natural pressure...
I suppose that the skin colour selection was not only a climate one.

 

[Garrick]

Y-E1 came in Europe from Africa or SW Levant, according to subhaplogroups that knew surely different stories
Y-E as a whole don't mean a very negroid form of humanity even at the beginning (hyper-negroid traits are surely late evolutions, as hyper-europoid or hyper-mongoloid specializations) -
Y-E1-V13 is a downstream among other and WE DON'T KNOW where it was born WE KNOW it grew numerous i Balkans, it is not the same - (as said Maciamo long time ago)
WE ARE NOT SURE FOR NOW (I believe, based on my PRESENT knowledge) it came from Egypte only through Levant lands, someones suppose it could have reached Europe by sea too

Although main stream is that haplogroup E came to the Balkan from North Africa over Middle East, there are authors who think that this haplogroup could reach Balkan by sea. Maybe combination Middle East/Mediterranean sea.

There are minority authors who think that haplogroup E derives from Asia, or its ancestor DE. It is interesting that haplogroup D is now in East Asia (Japan, Tibet etc.). But haplogroup DE is 65000 years old. Haplogroup E is African, and carriers of Balkan E-V13 have Egypt origin (E-M78).

 

[bicicleur 2]

I favour arrival to the Balkans some 7000-7500 years ago.
At least 7000 years, because of the ancient DNA found in Catalunia.
During that period there was some trade of obsidian between Sicily and the Lybian coast area.
The Sahara was becoming increasingly arid then.
I think that is when V-13 crossed the Mediterranean, maybe even with some cattle.
Iberian and Italian cattle seems to have some African cattle DNA.

 

[albanopolis]

Although main stream is that haplogroup E came to the Balkan from North Africa over Middle East, there are authors who think that this haplogroup could reach Balkan by sea. Maybe combination Middle East/Mediterranean sea.

There are minority authors who think that haplogroup E derives from Asia, or its ancestor DE. It is interesting that haplogroup D is now in East Asia (Japan, Tibet etc.). But haplogroup DE is 65000 years old. Haplogroup E is African, and carriers of Balkan E-V13 have Egypt origin (E-M78).

I would say E-v13 folks have North African origin. Not neccesary Egypt. They could have crossed Gibraltar strait, or through Tunisia in Sicily. It does not look that they spread through land from north Africa. If they spread through land Turkey would have had higher E concentration.

 

[kamani]

I have this idea that someone in Albania or more North in the Balkans, whose lineage is heavy in E1b1b, is probably blondish looking. This is because it mixed so early in time with the paleolithic European females; plus evolution had some time to work on adaptation to climate. Taking Kosovars for example, until I saw the studies I would have never guessed 45% E1b1b. I've met quite a few of them in real life and more than half are tall, green eyes with yellow-brown hair.

 

[mihaitzateo]

I do not think is African.
Is present in Europe from before the Bronze Age.
EDIT:
Considering the moving of African people in Balkans and of the adaptation of African people,it was a very cold period in Europe,which I doubt African people could have survived in that period,considering how houses,clothes were in those times.

 

[Garrick]

I do not think is African.
Is present in Europe from before the Bronze Age.
EDIT:
Considering the moving of African people in Balkans and of the adaptation of African people,it was a very cold period in Europe,which I doubt African people could have survived in that period,considering how houses,clothes were in those times.

E-V13 is Afric origin, from E-M78 subclade and it is known. There are a lot of different theories about moving and very different periods (from 7000 BC to 500 BC, even later).

I agree with Kamani maybe one of direction could be over Gibraltar.

 

[adamo]

The e-v13 mutation either took place in western Anatolia but most probably on the Balkans, what in the earth are you guys talking about?

 

[Garrick]

The e-v13 mutation either took place in western Anatolia but most probably on the Balkans, what in the earth are you guys talking about?

Members of forum talking about probability, because there are a lot of authors and ideas.

Mutation could be in the Middle East (as in Anatolia), maybe and in Egypt.

Probability is higher for Middle East or Anatolia than Egypt, but who knows?

Main route of haplogroup E-M78 is probably Egypt, Middle East, Anatolia, Bosphorus for Balkan. But sea could be alternative, or combination.

Direction over Gibraltar is not excluded. Again, as alternative or combination.

 

[adamo]

The Balkans. You're forgetting the Balkans as an origin point for E-V13. Not north-Africa; maybe the western Anatolia.

 

[Garrick]

The Balkans. You're forgetting the Balkans as an origin point for E-V13. Not north-Africa; maybe the western Anatolia.

We don't know. Maybe Balkans, maybe Anatolia, maybe Lebanon. We know that E-M78 is Egipt origin and that E-V13 derived from E-M78.

And it is high probability that first E-V13 in the Balkans were Negroids.

 

[adamo]

Very wrong my dude.

 

[Garrick]

Very wrong my dude.

It is easiest to say so.

However I speak based on facts.

In the Balkans were found skeletons dating about over 4000 years BC, and they have negroid characteristics, if you want I can put as theme.

And to be to clear, only for research purposes and facts.

I do not have a pre- Yes or No, and I'm not against these such findings.

 

[Ike]

We also haven't excluded the possibility of multiple entries.

Some E-V13 may have come through Gibraltar 10 kya and it slowly spread across the western Europe. Then some may have come to Italy and Balkans by sea with Phoenicians 5 kya. Maybe Greek brought the most of current E-V13 some 3.5 kya.

There even may exist different subclades within E-V13, through which it could be identified.

 

[Marko94]

We don't know. Maybe Balkans, maybe Anatolia, maybe Lebanon. We know that E-M78 is Egipt origin and that E-V13 derived from E-M78.

And it is high probability that first E-V13 in the Balkans were Negroids.

Negroids? I think you wanted to said "mulato".
You say the first bulgarian was negroid? XD?? because according to "Ike":"I always hear Albanians blabbing about E-V13 heritage, but there is more E-V13 people in Bulgaria in absolute numbers.

 

[Garrick]

Negroids? I think you wanted to said "mulato".
You say the first bulgarian was negroid? XD?? because according to "Ike":"I always hear Albanians blabbing about E-V13 heritage, but there is more E-V13 people in Bulgaria in absolute numbers.

Where did you see that I mentioned the word Bulgaria?

Before 4,000 BC in the Balkans there were no borders, states, and nations.

It is more correct to say skeletons with negroid characteristics.

Possible and some sort of mulatto.

But this goal is to show that African civilization was advanced and had spread outside of Africa, African Neolithic culture were developed at that time.

 

[albanopolis]

We don't know. Maybe Balkans, maybe Anatolia, maybe Lebanon. We know that E-M78 is Egipt origin and that E-V13 derived from E-M78.

And it is high probability that first E-V13 in the Balkans were Negroids.

Your problem is that you talk about 5000 yrs BC and have in mind today's Egyptians. Egypt was not a negroid country. Mummyes show that faraoes were I, R1b or E folks. Majority of Indians are R1a but do they look like slavs to you? EV13 predates 8000 yrs. Ballkan E people and Egyptian E people share a distant common ancester. But the same is true for swedish and arabs.

 

[Garrick]

Your problem is that you talk about 5000 yrs BC and have in mind today's Egyptians. Egypt was not a negroid country. Mummyes show that faraoes were I, R1b or E folks. Majority of Indians are R1a but do they look like slavs to you? EV13 predates 8000 yrs. Ballkan E people and Egyptian E people share a distant common ancester. But the same is true for swedish and arabs.

Maybe your problem is you do not read carefully. We don't speak about haplogroups in Ancient Egypt, but about routs of spread (and time) of haplogroup E in Balkans and Europe generally. You can see that members of forum write about different routs (Middle East, Anatolia, Balkans; by sea from North Africa and Lebanon; over the Gibraltar etc.).

We don't know a lot of things and the science will discover with new findings. However, one of thing is sure. E-M78 (Egyptian origin) is ancestor of following subclades:

E-V12 Egypt, Sudan, etc.
E-V13 Balkans, and also South Europe, Lebanon etc.
E-V22 Egypt, Middle East, etc.
E-V65 North Africa, Spain, etc.

Is E-M78* still exist? Yes, carriers this haplogroup, although rare, were found in Egypt, and interestingly, two carriers of E-M78 found in the Balkans (two Albanians).

 

[MOESAN]

It is easiest to say so.

However I speak based on facts.

In the Balkans were found skeletons dating about over 4000 years BC, and they have negroid characteristics, if you want I can put as theme.


I'm intrerested - could you please give us the pictures and also the study (or abstract) about these skeletons, if possible?
concerning Y-E1b-V13, I thought (without proof) they were there already in Balkans about 5500/5000 BC and that their spreading in north and north-east Europe was tightly linked to the dispersal and colonization of neolithic agricultors (Y-G2 and some of the Y-J2) along the Donau river and farther later (future LBK and descendant cultures) -
first farmers had supposedly a light taste of 'negroid' features that disappeard quickly between Near-Eastern and Europe - if the bearers of E-V13 had had strong negroid features at their arrival in S-Europe we should be obliged to imagine they were firstly seldom enough and overwent by the autosomals of other people in their crossings in Balkans, being the success of their male Y-HG due to a serious drift (to prove!) - something as 20-25% of Y-E1-V13 if autosomally african could not disappear like that, or it was already "washed" by a caucasoid N-E African (egyptian) crossing ...
thanks beforehand