Why is homo- and bisexuality on the rise in the West?

[LeBrok]

Yes of course it's good to hear and consider other peoples perspectives, and I hope I am always open and trying to do that. I just meant that at the end of the day, we can all only come to conclusions by the way we perceive and see things. Even when we try our best to understand other peoples perspectives our conclusions still end up being interpreted to how we perceive things.

Ok I see what you mean I somehow didn't see that post it was separate from the other one you addressed to me. I'll read them tomorrow .

I think, someone smart in the past said, that to understand others we have to start thinking like them. Sort of paradox, isn't it?

 

[Angela]

It seems to me that if we want to understand homosexuality we should ask homosexuals, and scientists should study homosexuality, and that includes not only research into the brain and genetics, but actually asking them, as has been and is being done.

Every study I've read indicates that they don't choose to have this orientation, and so far genetics or epigenetics seems to be the cause.

I think what heterosexuals believe is rather beside the point unless those beliefs are based on that research and what homosexuals actually say.

 

[Maleth]

Not every masculine woman is a lesbian and not every lesbian is masculine. Also I think that among women bisexuality is more common than homosexuality. And bisexuality is more common among women than among men.

Indeed but that wasn't my point. My point is that the there are still people who even denies the homosexuality of the very obvious masculine lesbian and feminine males (but not trans gender type) that are so obvious even acting so pre puberty. How can anyone be so blind to this obvious reality?

 

[Maleth]

It seems to me that if we want to understand homosexuality we should ask homosexuals, and scientists should study homosexuality, and that includes not only research into the brain and genetics, but actually asking them, as has been and is being done.

Every study I've read indicates that they don't choose to have this orientation, and so far genetics or epigenetics seems to be the cause.

I think what heterosexuals believe is rather beside the point unless those beliefs are based on that research and what homosexuals actually say.

Amen...............................

 

[davef]

This supports the view that homosexuality is genetic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

 

[srdceleva]

There is a lot research done. Most point to differences in brain structure, and as we know the most sexual organ is our brain.
https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q...ved=0ahUKEwjk_ejouJHTAhWK6oMKHWxeCdwQgQMIGDAA

The studies seem very pseudo-scientific in my opinion. Similar to studies done on lesbians where they claimed longer length in certain fingers was due to more testosterone levels and was more common among lesbians.

Im not surprised homosexuals have similar brain development and sexual parts of their brains react when exposed to masculine things. Gay men are living in a sexually active gay lifestyle, we already know how malleable the brain is, obviously if you are practicing a similar activity your brain will develop accordingly, this doesn't mean you were born that way. If we examined the brains of professional tennis players they would also have similar brain structures due to years of practicing and playing tennis. This doesn't contradict anything I said. I think the fact that gay men and gay women can have 100 percent normally healthy children, and that they cant with eachother is biological proof enough for what their bodies are made for.

With this next question im not trying to be offensive or insult Maleth, regardless of his sexuality he seems like a nice guy and we have reasonable discussions even if we have widely different views. However, no one can ever properly answer this question for me and I need it to be answered.

Are you(Same Sex marriage proponents) against adult children marrying and living in sexual relationships with their adult parents? Im speaking about adults not children. All of the same arguments can be made in favor of them marrying as well, so whats the difference?

this last question is addressed to everyone in the thread.

 

[srdceleva]

It seems to me that if we want to understand homosexuality we should ask homosexuals, and scientists should study homosexuality, and that includes not only research into the brain and genetics, but actually asking them, as has been and is being done.

Every study I've read indicates that they don't choose to have this orientation, and so far genetics or epigenetics seems to be the cause.

I think what heterosexuals believe is rather beside the point unless those beliefs are based on that research and what homosexuals actually say.

This article is very relevant to this thread and is written by a Gay man.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/19/nobody-is-born-that-way-gay-historians-say/

 

[Angela]

I've heard all of this before. I found it unpersuasive then, and I find it unpersuasive now. You're free to believe what you wish.

 

[srdceleva]

I've heard all of this before. I found it unpersuasive then, and I find it unpersuasive now. You're free to believe what you wish.

How is it unpersuasive that exclusive homosexuality didn't exist in the past?

Romans and Greeks and the vast majority of the ancient world didn't even have the concept and they had no stigma towards gays. It's just interesting how it didn't exist untill modern times and how exclusive homosexuality is almost never seen in the animal kingdom. It's just interesting how only peoples opinions who agree with you count.

Did you read my previous question?

 

[Angela]

Do you still believe that R1b L51+ originated in western Europe and spread from there? I don't. I think all the modern genetic evidence shows that it spread from the east. However, up until a few years ago a lot of people believed just that. You can still find people, including people in the field, who do believe that. You can go back just a little bit further and look at the disputes over whether agriculture reached Europe through cultural diffusion or arrived with a new population.

This situation is analogous. Yes, you can find isolated people in the field who still hold homosexuality isn't innate, but the evidence is mounting that this is indeed the case. Notice that I said homosexuality itself, not people who sometimes engage in homosexual sex. For goodness' sakes I sometimes wonder if some of the people writing these things are parents. Or maybe they're the kind of parents where only the nanny takes the kids to the playground. You can see it in some little boys when they're as young as four or five. One of the little boys at our club was like that, and he wasn't the only one I've observed. Are all homosexuals like that? No, they're not, but a good number certainly are. Why do you think even barely pubescent boys are singled out for beatings? It's because they're different.

As for this claim that none of the Greeks and Romans were exclusively homosexual, that's an absurd claim, imo. For one thing, there's absolutely no way that anyone can know that. More importantly, however, the indications from actual writings of the Greeks, for example, is that there were men who did focus exclusively on younger men, and they were condemned or at least mocked for that. The writer of the article obviously never studied the classics.

As for your last question, incest taboos exist for a very good reason. Most people have inculcated them. So, I think it would be extremely rare for anyone as an adult to develop a sexual "love" for their own parent.

In addition, however, I think there is a state interest in ensuring that marriage should not occur between close relatives because of the danger of defective children, and the burden of them eventually falling upon the community as a whole. That's why in the west most jurisdictions forbid marriage between siblings, first cousins, etc.

I've only ever heard of one case similar to what you're suggesting. A woman met her birth father as an adult and they began a sexual relationship. I don't know if it was a hoax or legit, but that's what the parties said. She also said they would never have children. I can't even contemplate such a thing, but if you're asking me if they should be stoned to death or something, no, I wouldn't agree with that.

Now, I've said about all I have to say on the subject.

 

[LeBrok]

The studies seem very pseudo-scientific in my opinion. Similar to studies done on lesbians where they claimed longer length in certain fingers was due to more testosterone levels and was more common among lesbians.

Wow, I'm not sure if we can have any serious conversation with such strong confirmation bias you represent.

Im not surprised homosexuals have similar brain development and sexual parts of their brains react when exposed to masculine things. Gay men are living in a sexually active gay lifestyle, we already know how malleable the brain is, obviously if you are practicing a similar activity your brain will develop accordingly, this doesn't mean you were born that way. If we examined the brains of professional tennis players they would also have similar brain structures due to years of practicing and playing tennis. This doesn't contradict anything I said. I think the fact that gay men and gay women can have 100 percent normally healthy children, and that they cant with eachother is biological proof enough for what their bodies are made for. [/QUOTE]And how homosexuality starts, before the brain got "malleabled" into homosexuality? You explain how brain keeps homosexuality (once it learned) but you can't explain how it starts? On other hand people who can explain are the pseudo scientists. Bravo.

With this next question im not trying to be offensive or insult Maleth, regardless of his sexuality he seems like a nice guy and we have reasonable discussions even if we have widely different views. However, no one can ever properly answer this question for me and I need it to be answered.

Are you(Same Sex marriage proponents) against adult children marrying and living in sexual relationships with their adult parents? Im speaking about adults not children. All of the same arguments can be made in favor of them marrying as well, so whats the difference?

this last question is addressed to everyone in the thread.

What heterosexual relationship has to do with homosexuality? Shouldn't we stop heterosexuality instead, because it can lead to father-daughter thing?
I'm sorry, but not understanding this subject or momosexual nature, leads to phobias. In middle ages everybody knew this established and confirmed fact that witchcraft is real and shouldn't be tolerated. Authority cleaned up society burning sinful people alive. Aren't you glad that now we live on this earth without these bad witches?
The heck with scientists, lets believe in what people always knew.

 

[Angela]

Do you still believe that R1b L51+ originated in western Europe and spread from there? I don't. I think all the modern genetic evidence shows that it spread from the east. However, up until a few years ago a lot of people believed just that. You can still find people, including people in the field, who do believe that. You can go back just a little bit further and look at the disputes over whether agriculture reached Europe through cultural diffusion or arrived with a new population.

This situation is analogous. Yes, you can find isolated people in the field who still hold homosexuality isn't innate, but the evidence is mounting that this is indeed the case. Notice that I said homosexuality itself, not people who sometimes engage in homosexual sex. For goodness' sakes I sometimes wonder if some of the people writing these things are parents. Or maybe they're the kind of parents where only the nanny takes the kids to the playground. You can see it in some little boys when they're as young as four or five. One of the little boys at our club was like that, and he wasn't the only one I've observed. Are all homosexuals like that? No, they're not, but a good number certainly are. Why do you think even barely pubescent boys are singled out for beatings? It's because they're different.

As for this claim that none of the Greeks and Romans were exclusively homosexual, that's an absurd claim, imo. For one thing, there's absolutely no way that anyone can know that. More importantly, however, the indications from actual writings of the Greeks, for example, is that there were men who did focus exclusively on younger men, and they were condemned or at least mocked for that. The writer of the article obviously never studied the classics.

As for your last question, incest taboos exist for a very good reason. Most people have inculcated them. So, I think it would be extremely rare for anyone as an adult to develop a sexual "love" for their own parent.

In addition, however, I think there is a state interest in ensuring that marriage should not occur between close relatives because of the danger of defective children, and the burden of them eventually falling upon the community as a whole. That's why in the west most jurisdictions forbid marriage between siblings, first cousins, etc.

I've only ever heard of one case similar to what you're suggesting. A woman met her birth father as an adult and they began a sexual relationship. I don't know if it was a hoax or legit, but that's what the parties said. She also said they would never have children. I can't even contemplate such a thing, but if you're asking me if they should be stoned to death or something, no, I wouldn't agree with that.

Now, I've said about all I have to say on the subject.

I shouldn't have expected you guys to take my word for it.

"[FONT=&quot]It was certainly shameful when a man with a beard remained the passive partner ([/FONT]pathikos) and it was even worse when a man allowed himself to be penetrated by another grown-up man. The Greeks even had a pejorative expression for these people, whom were called kinaidoi. They were the targets of ridicule by the other citizens, especially comedy writers. For example, Aristophanes (c.445-c.380) shows them dressed like women, with a bra, a wig and a gown, and calls them euryprôktoi, "wide arses"."

"[FONT=&quot]In the fourth century, it was not uncommon when two grown-up men shared a home. There must have been jokes about these men, but obviously, they found this an acceptable price to pay for living with their beloved one. There was a large discrepancy between the official morals, which were expressed in the ancient laws, and everyday life."

[/FONT]http://www.livius.org/articles/concept/greek-homosexuality/

Most of the scholars who've dealt with this subject believe that it derived from male initiation rites practiced by the Indo-Europeans.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Tomenable]

and so far genetics or epigenetics seems to be the cause.

Identical twins can have different sexual orientation, so it can't be mainly genetic.

 

[Angela]

I said genetics or epigenetics.

Then there's all the questions about whether one of the twins has the same orientation but just doesn't act on it.

Anyway, even though it's definitely not always the case, it can certainly "run" in certain families.

K.D. Lang is one of my all time favorite singers. I don't think she's had the success she so richly deserved mostly due to her flamboyant lesbianism. Three out of the four children in her family are gay, which may be a record.

Rusty, unrehearsed, with no synthesizers or cleaning up, this is how she did a spontaneous version of Roy Orbison's "Crying". It's like every grieving heart in the world took voice.

That's a singer, not a lot of these idiots on the charts.

I really don't understand the phobia some men have about this. They're definitely a minority population, and what do straight men think they're going to do to them? If you're propositioned, politely say no and take it as a compliment. That's it. It's no big deal.

 

[IronSide]

bisexuality is not uncommon in Saudi Arabia, in fact I think it scores the highest in the bisexuality metric worldwide, I have to clarify two things before I start though, I'm talking about males only, because that's the group i'm more familiar with, and that very few identify themselves as bisexual, but almost all whom I deem bisexual would not mind having sex with the same gender, which is not a heterosexual position I guess.

It all starts in high-school, because in Saudi we don't have mixed schools (boys and girls together .. yes, that's our term for it), in this critical period in one's life, when we all start experimenting and discovering our sexuality, we find that most of the people we meet daily, are males, basically we don't have options, and so for most of us, the mind unconsciously adapts to like people of the same sex, but also the opposite, since the first is merely a temporary replacement of the second.

I myself have experienced such an environment, out of nowhere I started to like one of my classmates, he was kinda cute, of mixed central Asian and Arabic blood, he had adorable green eyes and silky hair, a handsome face and a slender body ahh god bless his heart, and I'm sounding like a faggot right now hahahhha.

And that's the irony of the situation, the islamo-fascist government tried to suppress human nature by segregating the genders, to force us to be chaste, and it backfired on them, and now we have one of the largest crypto bisexual and homosexual populations, not that it matters anyway, everyone should be free to do whatever he/she wants, as long as it doesn't break the law, well ... it depends on the law :grin:

and after writing all this I forgot the subject was on western Europe, consider it useful knowledge.

 

[Apsurdistan]

Undermining of traditional natural order of things
I blame capitalism first and foremost, feminism is at first glance the obvious reason but it was created by capitalism which is a cannibalistic system of obsession with materialistic profit being worshiped above all else.

 

[LeBrok]

Undermining of traditional natural order of things
I blame capitalism first and foremost, feminism is at first glance the obvious reason but it was created by capitalism which is a cannibalistic system of obsession with materialistic profit being worshiped above all else.

Yah, yah, yah, "cannibalistic system" which exists 500 years and growing exponentially. You should have stayed in Yugoslavia/Bosnia and not migrated to US, the bastion of capitalism. But I guess, money talks and bulshit walks. You are doing the walk, but still can't grasp it. Congratulation on education. As for the rest, ture parochial and hyper conservative way of thinking of most Eastern Europeans.

 

[Angela]

Yes, women are too masculine; that's why men turn more to other men for sexual release. It's simple Logic 101.

@Ironside,
That's actually what I was thinking about when I said it's more prevalent in certain countries than others. It's the same in Afghanistan from what I've read, and other parts of the Near East; really, it's the same wherever men are denied any access to women, like seamen in the past, or prisons etc. To some extent that explains the high incidence in ancient Greece as well. The women were in virtual purdah.

You're going to get more homosexual behavior, although I don't think you actually necessarily get more homosexuality. It's just that if the sex drive is strong enough, the person will find release somehow.

 

[LeBrok]

Yes, women are too masculine; that's why men turn more to other men for sexual release. It's simple Logic 101.

@Ironside,
That's actually what I was thinking about when I said it's more prevalent in certain countries than others. It's the same in Afghanistan from what I've read, and other parts of the Near East; really, it's the same wherever men are denied any access to women, like seamen in the past, or prisons etc. To some extent that explains the high incidence in ancient Greece as well. The women were in virtual purdah.

You're going to get more homosexual behavior, although I don't think you actually necessarily get more homosexuality. It's just that if the sex drive is strong enough, the person will find release somehow.

For bi-sexuals yes, because they have a choice. When women are not available, no problem, there are so many men around to love. For the rest of us, the strict hetero and homo, it won't work. You can't switch your sexuality at will.
The biggest perpetuation of home and bi sexuality is arrainged mariage, and strict prohibition of homo unions. Because homosexuality is genetic, it will be "sent" to next generation.

 

[Apsurdistan]

Yah, yah, yah, "cannibalistic system" which exists 500 years and growing exponentially. You should have stayed in Yugoslavia/Bosnia and not migrated to US, the bastion of capitalism. But I guess, money talks and bulshit walks. You are doing the walk, but still can't grasp it. Congratulation on education. As for the rest, ture parochial and hyper conservative way of thinking of most Eastern Europeans.

I migrated to the US when I was 12 and didn't know anything, and after a civil war. And it's even worse cannibalistic capitalism in former Yugoslavia right now than it is in the west. The workers are treated like cattle. Same shit is being promoted there now only there's less jobs and smaller pay. Yes capitalism is growing exponentially so is homosexuality and low birth rate in the most "developed" capitalist countries. Depression, divorce rates, drug abuse. And we're basically on the brink of ww3 despite the fact nuclear weapons exist.
And I don't wanna go into all the reasons why this system sucks, anyone with a gram of brains can see it's leading to a very bizarre unpredictable future, most likely a bad one. I don't give a shit to explain to someone who doesn't understand or wants to understand, waste of my time.