Immigration Ban the burka?

[Truth be told]

I'm sorry Truth be told, I don't know what is wrong with your writing. Is it Google translation or mindless, forced "logic" of your religious education, or our cultural divide is too large. Your writing doesn't make sense.

To be that Google translates to me error

I do not know the English language well

tray as you can get me the sooner

 

[Maciamo]

The muslim population of Belgium is only about 4%. Are there not more important things that Belgian government could be spending their time on?

4% is a lot. Besides they don't have anything better to do now in this period of truce between Flemings and Walloons.

 

[Maciamo]

Have you read mine?

I agree completely that hiding your face in work or social conditions isn't acceptable. I am mearly making the point that this is a minorty problem, in which the local authorities already have the power to legislate for, so there was no actualy need for the government to waste time creating a national ban.

Almost all of Belgium's Muslims live in cities, especially Brussels and Antwerp. About one third of Brussels is made of immigrant neighbourhoods that are overwhelmingly Muslim. These places are poor and violence is so common that even the police fears venturing in some quarters. In these places veiled women are everywhere. It doesn't feel like you are in Europe anymore (ironic in the EU capital). Criminals wanted by the authorities could be hiding under a burqa (yes, even men) without fear of being apprehended. How do you arrest people if you can't see their face ?

 

[Gwyllgi]

Quoting the Islamic percentage of the gross population of a country is meaningless, actually no, it’s misleading.

Colonies are being established with concentrations far beyond 4% and much closer to 100%, and therein lies the problem.

Incidently, ever heard the phrase “in sinu viperam habere” (to hold a viper to ones bosom)? It forms the basis of one of Aesop’s fables, The Farmer and the Viper.

 

[Chris]

There's too much 'tail waging the dog' in UK society, and I suspect much of Europe; i.e. in any collection of human beings, people who choose to look and be different will be treated as such. When that happens, those that choose to be different bleat that they are being treated differently, i.e. 'unfairly'. It's ridiculous.

When as an Englishman in my youth, I lived in Los Angeles for over a decade in the 60s and 70s. They knew I was foreign but I took part in US society completely, so was completely accepted. I was ribbed in the same way someone from the deep South or Boston would have been, but accepted. It's human nature.

I chose to come back to England when in my 20s, as it is home.

Others in our society today have the same choices to make.

 

[Aristander]

Where do you stop it? If you ban the usage of the burka, then next year what are you going to ban?
Maybe next year you make all the immigrants live in "special sections" of the cities?
I believe that immigrants should strive to fit in the society in which they choose live in, but they can't be forced to fit in.

 

[LeBrok]

I would say that we should take emigrants that appreciate our freedoms, tolerance, democracy, so called western values. Taking emigrants just because they only want come to enjoy our material goods and services is unacceptable.

If someone comes to the emigration interview with couple of wives dressed up in burka, what do you think he's looking for in America, or any other western country? The equality or the freedom of religion?
I'm sure he hates western culture with all his heart. I'm sure he reticules the sinful and (whatever) Americans every day.
In what spirit he's going to raise his kids?
For me it has a conflict written all over, and it's all our own doing.

Actually this should be a part of a test for new emigrants. You won't let your wife to go around without burka, then get the f... outta here.

Do you think women like wearing burka? No? It should be band then.

 

[Porphyrogenita]

I don't see any real connection between banning the burka and moving immigrants into reservations. I am all for intercultural understanding, but even I can't deal with the burka thing. It isn't even an issue of disliking the religion (although I do). I just find it upsetting to see other women so dominated and brainwashed that they wear tents and call it modesty. So when I wear my grey Banana Republic suit to work I am flaunting? This is absurd. If you have to be told by your father to act modest then you aren't doing it out of your own modesty. It's amazing how many Muslim women maintain that they choose to wear the burka. It's like when American women in the 50s claimed they chose to be nothing but housewives. It's quite a coincidence then that the women of my generation just happen to choose sooo differently. It can't possibly have anything to do with decades of work towards women's rights in America.

I don't mean to be harsh or insensitive to any Muslim woman. And I certainly don't claim that the state of women's rights in Christian societies are perfect... all societies have some level of constraint and brainwashing (not just for women)... but the burka really is astonishingly sexist. I can't believe how long it has lasted. It's pretty interesting, anthropologically speaking. Personally speaking, it's just upsetting.

As for actually outlawing it... that's a tougher question. Surely we can't demand that our govt outlaw everything we personally dislike. I suppose the EU citizens here have stronger opinions than I do. The US public perspective, although quite Islamophobic, isn't really concerned with the burka or veil. Most Americans are too busy calling Muslims terrorists and enemies to be concerned about the lives of Muslim women. I suspect that the Muslim women in US are also less likely to wear the burka, as I lived in the state with the highest Muslim population in the US and I have seen maybe one burka in my whole life .

 

[chris eblana]

yes it should be banned...if they can't live without it, let them stay in pakistan or elsewhere they come from...to me is a rejection of our culture....we are a secular society and we freed our women from the burka or the kitchen decades ago...why should we allow something like this to come back again....?? if they reject our way of life and culture and standards, why should we accept theirs...?? it is a two way thing....when you move into europe and hope to stay and become european,and call yourself a european it is out of the question to wear a burka....i do not accept this notion of multiculturalism that people want to get european citizenship just to have a passport and a permission of residence, but otherwise accept nothing from the local culture and reject it totally..while you continue to live exactly as you lived in your country of origin...i am an immigrant myself, but i did not reject anything irish and tried to pass greek laws and customs onto the irish society....i accepted theirs, and tried to integrate my heritage into my irish everyday life, and introduced it to my irish partner and friends....
you can be a muslim and you can be a european...but secularism is one of the main characteristics of being european, so when you reject it and you want to live with religious laws,then sorry you have no place in europe...we got over that stage, we progressed...we left our ultra religious self behind and we evolved....that is why we are europeans...end of...

 

[LeBrok]

Amen brother.
I'm an emigrant too.
Whatever stands in the way of our freedoms and democracy, that our western civilization was built on, should be band and kicked out. Maybe it's a paradox, as freedom should be for all, but the Freedom is our most sacred thing, it's the essence of our way of life, and it should be protected by all means.
Any new emigrants to western countries should go through the freedom test. They fail, they are out.

 

[Yorkie]

The wearing of the burka seems to be, excuse the pun, an example of veiled political/religious hostility. It has no place in European societies and should be banned.

Unfortunately, in the UK, the politicians are far too afraid to do so for fear of provoking further social unrest, i.e, fairly recent riots in Bradford and Burnley, and of provoking further terrorist outrages.

Chris made the comment earlier that there is far 'too much of the tail wagging the dog' in UK society. That is a genuinely widely-held conviction in Britain in relation to the Muslim minority. No less a figure than the Archbishop of Canterbury has recently argued that it is 'inevitable' that some aspects of Sharia Law will have to be accomodated within the UK. Whilst this provoked widespread anger, it is sobering to hear a senior figure like this speak in such pathetic, defeatist tones. I say 'defeatist' because there is a battle going on. Secular Britain is finding it increasingly difficult to accomodate Islam into its so-called 'rich' and 'diverse' multicultural mix.

As Maciamo said previously of Belgian cities; take a walk around any large English city [and Glasgow in Scotland] and one encounters the increasingly common sight of veiled females who seemingly live lives far removed from those of native Britons. In fact, one could be literally in a 'foreign' country. One day, 'We the People' may awaken to be 'We Another People'.

 

[Chris]

The wearing of the burka seems to be, excuse the pun, an example of veiled political/religious hostility. It has no place in European societies and should be banned.

Unfortunately, in the UK, the politicians are far too afraid to do so for fear of provoking further social unrest, i.e, fairly recent riots in Bradford and Burnley, and of provoking further terrorist outrages.

Chris made the comment earlier that there is far 'too much of the tail wagging the dog' in UK society. That is a genuinely widely-held conviction in Britain in relation to the Muslim minority. No less a figure than the Archbishop of Canterbury has recently argued that it is 'inevitable' that some aspects of Sharia Law will have to be accomodated within the UK. Whilst this provoked widespread anger, it is sobering to hear a senior figure like this speak in such pathetic, defeatist tones. I say 'defeatist' because there is a battle going on. Secular Britain is finding it increasingly difficult to accomodate Islam into its so-called 'rich' and 'diverse' multicultural mix.

As Maciamo said previously of Belgian cities; take a walk around any large English city [and Glasgow in Scotland] and one encounters the increasingly common sight of veiled females who seemingly live lives far removed from those of native Britons. In fact, one could be literally in a 'foreign' country. One day, 'We the People' may awaken to be 'We Another People'.

Absolutely. Sleep for too long, and we will wake up to a world we're too late to stop.

As recently as today, an English council has ordered a fast food outlet to stop using an extractor fan, because the smell of bacon "insults" a Muslim neighbour. The owner of the outlet is a Turkish Muslim. Ooops. Too late. The council's fear and bias in favour of a minority has accused the same minority of a crime that doesn't exist and exposed their inverse prejudice.

Wake up, people!

 

[Yorkie]

Absolutely. Sleep for too long, and we will wake up to a world we're too late to stop.

As recently as today, an English council has ordered a fast food outlet to stop using an extractor fan, because the smell of bacon "insults" a Muslim neighbour. The owner of the outlet is a Turkish Muslim. Ooops. Too late. The council's fear and bias in favour of a minority has accused the same minority of a crime that doesn't exist and exposed their inverse prejudice.

Wake up, people!

Well said, Chris. The problems will escalate when English cities such as Leicester and Bradford become 'majority Muslim'. That will happen in the near future. We have already seen how the so-called 'majority' of Muslims fail to speak out against the militant 'minority', and dare not even attempt to control them. The country has been on a terror-alert on par with that of the Second World War intermittently over the past three years. If that is not a crisis, what is?

Roy Jenkins' famous /infamous waffling about 'mutual tolerance' sounds hollow in 2010. There is no possibility of 'ecumenical dialogue' with fanatics. We also have the ludicrous spectacle in Afghanistan [a graveyard for British troops] of an Army that seems to be fighting with one hand behind its back, with practically everything televised as in Vietnam. Who are they fighting? According to some sources, British Muslim members of the Taliban with Bradford and Birmingham accents.

One has to laugh, or one might just weep.

 

[LeBrok]

I found this interview on multiculturalism hell of an interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usI4ONycmZ0

 

[Aristander]

Muslim immigration seems to be occurring much more in Europe than it is in the Americas. What is going to happen when whole communities of these Muslims separate themselves from surrounding communities and decide that they want to have local Sharia rule?
What are the European governments going to do when they behead someone for breaking a rule of Sharia? Or they decide they want to stone an adulteress?
What are the liberal governments of Europe going to do? I foresee internal strife and civil war and violence. It is my firm belief that we (and I mean the entire world) are going to see a rise in violence and out and out war within the boundaries of our own nations.

 

[Yorkie]

Muslim immigration seems to be occurring much more in Europe than it is in the Americas. What is going to happen when whole communities of these Muslims separate themselves from surrounding communities and decide that they want to have local Sharia rule?
What are the European governments going to do when they behead someone for breaking a rule of Sharia? Or they decide they want to stone an adulteress?
What are the liberal governments of Europe going to do? I foresee internal strife and civil war and violence. It is my firm belief that we (and I mean the entire world) are going to see a rise in violence and out and out war within the boundaries of our own nations.

Yes, that is the general picture. The 'liberal governments' [and arguably the majority of European governments are dominated by a left/liberal consensus] will simply cave in to the demands of this increasingly aggressive and militant so-called 'minority' of Muslims.

Arguably, tensions are so bad in the UK between white working class communities and Muslim British Asians of Pakistani origin in areas like Burnley and Bradford that it might take just one terrorist outrage in such areas to indeed bring about 'civil war'. The politicians will continue to pretend the opposite, but then, they have engaged in systematic evasion and pretence about mass immigration and its effects in Great Britain for over half a century. The people know otherwise. Who, in truth, does not truly feel a sense of deep foreboding when contemplating the future of Muslim/non-Muslim relations in Europe? Only the Prince of Fools would feel optimistic.

 

[Chris]

Here's the view of a senior Muslim cleric, and if this doesn't prove it's an unacceptable transplanting of culture into Europe, nothing will:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...riage-is-impossible-claims-Muslim-cleric.html

 

[Yorkie]

Here's the view of a senior Muslim cleric, and if this doesn't prove it's an unacceptable transplanting of culture into Europe, nothing will:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...riage-is-impossible-claims-Muslim-cleric.html

His views disgust me.

 

[Chris]

Why does all this matter? Because it isn't just a British issue, given that our percentage of non-EU immigrants is only slightly higher than many parts of western Europe:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...White-Britons-to-become-minority-by-2066.html

It's the loss of national identity and culture as we know it that's at stake - nothing less than that. I suspect though that battle has been lost, given birth rates amongst immigrant communities (currently 25% of British births) resultant demographic trends, etc. The mathematics speaks for itself.

 

[Yorkie]

Why does all this matter? Because it isn't just a British issue, given that our percentage of non-EU immigrants is only slightly higher than many parts of western Europe:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...White-Britons-to-become-minority-by-2066.html

It's the loss of national identity and culture as we know it that's at stake - nothing less than that. I suspect though that battle has been lost, given birth rates amongst immigrant communities (currently 25% of British births) resultant demographic trends, etc. The mathematics speaks for itself.

One day in the distant future, people will look back at concerns like these as the quaint, futile prattlings of a doomed fossil people. Amidst the minarets, some of them might just occasionally wonder if 'those early 21st century Britons' had a point. One or two of them might be given pause for thought, and they might wonder how different it could have been had British [and fellow European] politicians not lacked the courage to fully confront the issue of Islamification. The occasional one might wonder why those politicians, long ago in 2010, were so determined to engage in systematic evasion and pretence. The image of Lemmings might form in their minds briefly, as they hear the call for prayers echo over the city.