Early contact between late farming and pastoralist societies in southeastern Europe

Jovialis said:
Here are the samples projected against modern West Eurasians (not displayed):

lLok8GE.png
Click to expand...

1QUUoS0.png
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Jovialis: My top 25 distances. Thanks to Salento for the coordinates.

Distance to:PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
6.87984011UKR_Eneolithic:KTL005_58.48%
8.54406812UKR_Eneolithic:KTL002_50.84%
9.96056725UKR_Eneolithic:KTL004_71.12%
14.20770566UKR_Eneolithic:MAJ020_62.08%
14.36645398RO_Chalcolithic:pIE042_5.44%
15.36166658BGR_Chalcolithic:VAR011_57.72%
16.21785436BGR_EBA:YUN038_48.81%
16.37161873BGR_Chalcolithic:VAR006_28.85%
16.44129861RO_Chalcolithic:pIE008_56.00%
16.64091043BGR_Chalcolithic:VAR026_9.22%
16.91836576RO_Chalcolithic:pIE012_38.13%
17.17448980BGR_Chalcolithic:VAR004_42.73%
17.30752438RO_Chalcolithic:pIE069_23.05%
17.75825442BGR_EBA:YUN042_60.50%
17.84064741BGR_Chalcolithic:pTK001_36.35%
18.01557104BGR_Chalcolithic:VAR030_41.72%
18.07345291BGR_EBA:YUN045_30.53%
18.17147765BGR_Chalcolithic:VAR023_ANI160_36.46%
18.25349282RO_Chalcolithic:pIE032_7.92%
18.39957880RO_Chalcolithic:pIE076_54.40%
18.42372926BGR_EBA:YUN043_66.86%
18.44123369RO_Chalcolithic:pIE026_10.18%
18.64142430BGR_Chalcolithic:VAR027_51.92%
18.70831366RO_Chalcolithic:pIE004_61.67%
18.93851895BGR_Chalcolithic:VAR021_36.96%
Click to expand...

Kudos to Salento for his time/work

Screenshot_20230722_171958_Chrome.jpg
 
Jovialis said:
Looks like the Kartal_B samples are indeed relatively close to Southern Italians and Greeks.
Click to expand...

Kartal Bs+X give really close distances
Screenshot_20230722_174904_Chrome.jpgScreenshot_20230722_180457_Chrome.jpg
What's their level of ANF+CHG admixture?
 
From the relabeled set (Jovialis post#13)

Distance to:Dodecadk12bStuvanè
8.44120252Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL005_58.48%
10.53559680Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL002_50.84%
12.01320107Usatove_ChL:MAJ009
12.93744179Usatove_ChL:MAJ020
13.34013118BGR_EBA:YUN042
14.72084916Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL008_20.12%
14.77474873Usatove_ChL:MAJ008
14.81856943Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL:KTL004_71.12%
15.23384390Usatove_ChL:UBK003
16.06664869BGR_EBA:YUN045
16.08613378Usatove_Chl:MAJ003
16.62923029BGR_EBA:YUN038
16.86406831BGR_EBA:YUN037
16.86981328Usatove_Chl:MAJ002
17.06958699BGR_EBA:YUN039
17.17863499Usatove_ChL:UBK006
18.20608964Gumelnița_EBA:pIE078
18.27157081Usatove_ChL:USV005
18.43670253BGR_EBA:YUN036
18.75805160Usatove_ChL:USV004
18.85781801Varna_ChL:VAR011
19.19030224Gumelnița_ChL:pIE042
19.25766341BGR_EBA:YUN034
19.30761508Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL:KTL003_54.19%
19.71051242Varna_ChL:VAR023_ANI160

Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
Distance: 1.2148% / 1.21480120 | ADC: 0.25x RC

35.8BGR_EBA
32.9Usatove_ChL
21.2Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL
10.1Gumelnița_ChL

Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
Distance: 0.5029% / 0.50288810

53.0Cernavodă_I(Kartal_B)_ChL
14.1Gumelnița_ChL
13.0Varna_ChL
12.1Usatove_EBA
7.8BGR_EBA

Distance to:Dodecadk12bStuvanè
2.1033273247.40% Usatove_ChL:MAJ008 + 52.60% BGR_EBA:YUN042
2.2708381655.40% Usatove_ChL:MAJ008 + 44.60% Gumelnița_EBA:pIE078
2.4135542453.40% Usatove_ChL:MAJ008 + 46.60% BGR_EBA:YUN037
2.5227575157.60% Usatove_ChL:MAJ008 + 42.40% BGR_EBA:YUN033
2.6296193952.80% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 47.20% BGR_EBA:YUN042
2.6660244747.20% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE008 + 52.80% BGR_EBA:YUN041
2.6903457541.40% Usatove_ChL:USV004 + 58.60% BGR_EBA:YUN042
2.9263657330.80% BGR_EBA:BOY019 + 69.20% Varna_ChL:VAR011
2.9624953046.60% Usatove_ChL:UBK003 + 53.40% BGR_EBA:YUN042
3.0238740225.60% Usatove_EBA:MAJ017 + 74.40% Varna_ChL:VAR011
3.0464308141.80% Usatove_ChL:USV005 + 58.20% BGR_EBA:YUN042
3.1077306144.60% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE004 + 55.40% BGR_EBA:YUN041
3.1394219753.80% Usatove_ChL:MAJ008 + 46.20% BGR_EBA:YUN039
3.1461495942.60% Gumelnița/Karanovo_ChL:YUN019 + 57.40% BGR_EBA:YUN041
3.1467132457.60% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 42.40% BGR_EBA:YUN045
3.2026142160.80% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 39.20% Gumelnița_EBA:pIE078
3.2112168934.00% BGR_EBA:BOY019 + 66.00% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE012
3.2115638334.20% BGR_EBA:BOY019 + 65.80% Varna_ChL:VAR006
3.2564333246.00% Usatove_ChL:USV004 + 54.00% BGR_EBA:YUN045
3.3189530663.00% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 37.00% BGR_EBA:YUN033
3.3286949358.80% Usatove_ChL:MAJ009 + 41.20% BGR_EBA:YUN037
3.3862422046.60% Usatove_ChL:USV005 + 53.40% BGR_EBA:YUN045
3.3936190945.00% Usatove_Chl:MAJ003 + 55.00% BGR_EBA:YUN042
3.4128332645.60% Gumelnița_ChL:pIE032 + 54.40% BGR_EBA:YUN041
3.4237341935.60% BGR_EBA:BOY019 + 64.40% Varna_ChL:VAR004
 
Jovialis said:
KTL_B looks about 60% ANF, with about 30% CHG and 10% WHG according to the admixture chart.
Click to expand...

No EHG? Could KTL_B be a population that is EEF(ANF+WHG)+CHG? Seems like a second wave from Anatolia carrying sizeable amount of CHG.
 
Anfänger said:
No EHG? Could KTL_B be a population that is EEF(ANF+WHG)+CHG? Seems like a second wave from Anatolia carrying sizeable amount of CHG.
Click to expand...

"It has been theorized that Cernadova culture, together with the Sredny Stog culture, was the source of Anatolian languages and introduced them to Anatolia through the Balkans after Anatolian split from the Proto-Indo-Anatolian language, which some linguists and archaeologists place in the area of the Sredny Stog culture"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cernavodă_culture
 
Omino said:
"It has been theorized that Cernadova culture, together with the Sredny Stog culture, was the source of Anatolian languages and introduced them to Anatolia through the Balkans after Anatolian split from the Proto-Indo-Anatolian language, which some linguists and archaeologists place in the area of the Sredny Stog culture"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cernavodă_culture
Click to expand...

Just skimmed through the paper but did Cernavoda carry EHG ancestry? It should if it is the carrier of Anatolian languages and stemming from Sredny Stog. Also, it should be possible to show a genetic connection (particularly Y-DNA and autosomal DNA ) between Cernavoda and EBA Anatolia.
EDIT: Some of the KTL samples carry EHG, so it should be possible to test the hypothesis if Cernavoda has a link to EBA Anatolia, just looking at the Y-DNA and no EHG in EBA Anatolia, it didn’t though.

Nevertheless it looks like at least KTL_B didn’t have any EHG, so no good candidate for Anatolian languages but maybe a hint that there was a second migration of farmers from Anatolia into Europa that carried CHG.
 
torzio said:
Target: Torziok12b
Distance: 0.4101% / 0.41009828
38.5 BGR_Chalcolithic
28.1 BGR_EBA
12.6 RO_Chalcolithic
11.6 UKR_EBA
9.2 UKR_Eneolithic
Click to expand...


Target: Torziok12b
Distance: 0.4152% / 0.41519602
40.2 Varna_ChL
32.0 BGR_EBA
12.7 Usatove_EBA
8.8 Gumelnița_ChL
3.8 Usatove_ChL
2.5 Cernavodă_I(Kartal_A)_ChL
 
I am interested in the Varna samples ..............they hail from


The research team of this new project has begun the precision radiocarbon dating of the super-important Copper Age cemetery at Varna. These first dates show the cemetery in use from 4560-4450 BC, with the possibility that the richer burials are earlier and the poor burials later in the sequence. The limited number of lavish graves at Varna, representing no more than a handful of paramount chiefs, buried over 50-60 years, suggests a stabilisation of the new social structure by the early part of the Late Copper Age.


anyone have any articles on these ?
 
torzio said:
I am interested in the Varna samples ..............they hail from
The research team of this new project has begun the precision radiocarbon dating of the super-important Copper Age cemetery at Varna. These first dates show the cemetery in use from 4560-4450 BC, with the possibility that the richer burials are earlier and the poor burials later in the sequence. The limited number of lavish graves at Varna, representing no more than a handful of paramount chiefs, buried over 50-60 years, suggests a stabilisation of the new social structure by the early part of the Late Copper Age.
anyone have any articles on these ?
Click to expand...


and


The Varna I cemetery, on the Bulgarian Black Sea coast, is one of the most remarkable sites in European prehistory, with the world’s earliest large-scale assemblage of gold artifacts. Modeling of the first series of 14 accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS) dates yielded a duration of occupation at the site of ca. 150 years, ~4600–4450 cal BC. However, there were insufficient paired human–animal dates for a full consideration of the question of the marine reservoir effect. Here, a fuller set of 71 dates from 53 graves is presented. We identify a small reservoir effect in a number of individuals based on 14C, as well as carbon and nitrogen stable isotopes. We test the effect of this by building a series of different Bayesian models. Our favored model, including a correction for some of the human determinations, shows activity at the cemetery starting at 4596–4516 cal BC and ending 4427–4341 cal BC (at 95.4% probability). The overall span of activity covers ~120–260 years (93.6% prob.). The modeling shows that Varna I falls toward the beginning of the Bulgarian Late Copper Age.
 
So few J2, only 3, and all J2a, the West has J2b
 
Anfänger said:
No EHG? Could KTL_B be a population that is EEF(ANF+WHG)+CHG? Seems like a second wave from Anatolia carrying sizeable amount of CHG.
Click to expand...
This coincidences with the increase of non-steppe CHG increasing in the EBA. But it looks like it was even earlier in the ChL.

To me it shows that the development of Greek culture possibly began with cultural exchange and mixing from convenience of proximity with the steppe people, rather than a climatic invasion that happened in other areas. This would make sense with what we see from the Southern Arc papers.
 
Proto-Greek was possibly just a lingua franca that was convenient for the type of social dynamics that were involved with the copper age people from the steppe that interacted with the their southern neighbors. Sometimes they had sexual exchanges perhaps, which is why EHG is relatively low and sporadic among later groups in Greece like the Mycenaeans. I find this to be a more nuanced understanding of what may have happened according to the evidence.
 
The Kartal samples have extremely good fit to Greeks and Italians. Now we need to find other intermediate sites unless those two peoples came down immediately from Ukraine with no intermediate stops.

My other question is what happens to Greeks that supposedly have a slavic component?
 
bigsnake49 said:
The Kartal samples have extremely good fit to Greeks and Italians. Now we need to find other intermediate sites unless those two peoples came down immediately from Ukraine with no intermediate stops.

My other question is what happens to Greeks that supposedly have a slavic component?
Click to expand...

I highly doubt the Kartal samples represent any Greek speakers. Cernavoda(KTL) is way too early for a split of Greek from other PIE languages. Cernavoda is believed to be Anatolian or more precisely Proto-Anatolian if you favour the steppe theory for Indo-Anatolian. Whereas Greek is possibly the results of a Yamnaya expansion in the Bronze Age, with Albanian and Armenian also being part of this stage of Yamnaya expansion.
 
Anfänger said:
I highly doubt the Kartal samples represent any Greek speakers. Cernavoda(KTL) is way too early for a split of Greek from other PIE languages. Cernavoda is believed to be Anatolian or more precisely Proto-Anatolian if you favour the steppe theory for Indo-Anatolian. Whereas Greek is possibly the results of a Yamnaya expansion in the Bronze Age, with Albanian and Armenian also being part of this stage of Yamnaya expansion.
Click to expand...

Whatever tribe they belonged to, whether they spoke pre-photo-Greek or even just undifferentiated PIE, that is a remarkable closeness for so long ago. Now all we have to do is to trace their path down to the Balkans.
 
bigsnake49 said:
Whatever tribe they belonged to, whether they spoke pre-photo-Greek or even just undifferentiated PIE, that is a remarkable closeness for so long ago. Now all we have to do is to trace their path down to the Balkans.
Click to expand...
I think the autosomal DNA closeness of these samples to modern Greeks(Macedonia/Thessaloniki) is a coincidence.

First, you have to ask what are northern modern Greeks genetically? The answer is that northern modern Greeks are mostly ANF+CHG+EHG/CHG(Steppe) and some of these KTL samples also have the same combination of these ancestral components roughly in the amount as Greeks. Second, the Y-DNA of the KTL samples isn’t R1b-Z2103 which is relatively common in Greece today, instead KTL samples have I2a and an R1b subclade which isn’t even R1b-M269.

Also, you just rightly wrote that Greeks have a Slavic component, this is particularly true for northern Greeks. The Slavic component carries a lot of steppe ancestry and it arrived at a time when these KTL samples were long gone. Northern Greeks are a result of this mixing in medieval times that means there weren’t people like this genetically before the migration of slavs south. That means Northern Greeks were born in Medieval times not in the Chalcolithic.
 
Anfänger said:
I think the autosomal DNA closeness of these samples to modern Greeks(Macedonia/Thessaloniki) is a coincidence.
First, you have to ask what are northern modern Greeks genetically? The answer is that northern modern Greeks are mostly ANF+CHG+EHG/CHG(Steppe) and some of these KTL samples also have the same combination of these ancestral components roughly in the amount as Greeks. Second, the Y-DNA of the KTL samples isn’t R1b-Z2103 which is relatively common in Greece today, instead KTL samples have I2a and an R1b subclade which isn’t even R1b-M269.
Also, you just rightly wrote that Greeks have a Slavic component, this is particularly true for northern Greeks. The Slavic component carries a lot of steppe ancestry and it arrived at a time when these KTL samples were long gone. Northern Greeks are a result of this mixing in medieval times that means there weren’t people like this genetically before the migration of slavs south. That means Northern Greeks were born in Medieval times not in the Chalcolithic.
Click to expand...

That's a lot of coincidence. But you are right in that it is the amateur calculators that give us these great fits and not ancIBD.
 
Jovialis said:
Very interesting how Kartal B was approximating LBA Mycenaeans (as well as overlapping with modern southern Italians and Greeks) in as early as 4500 BC - 3200 BC!
Click to expand...

Which shows that there was no movement from Yamnaya culture itself to Greece.
A cline is formed before Yamnaya comes to existence. And Yamnaya has ancestry from further west (where R1b-Z2103 may come from likely being WHG in origin)

That also means there is no reason to use Yamnaya to model e.g. Mycenaeans when there are earlier and more proximal sources that work (and more will appear)

And it also means that Indoeuropean could have been originally a 'farmer' language with just what is called 'nuclear Indo-European' being spoken inside the ANF-Steppe-Eneolithic cline, Greek being from the southern end.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 5403 times.

Back
Top