MOESAN
Elite member
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- Brittany
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- more celtic
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- H3c
Yes indeed; weather conditions is another forgotten aspect of the IE spread models, that's very true. Thanks for the file, it is very informative !
horses :
And I would had an argument : contrary to Taranis, I state that the word for "horse" is generally different in the IE languages. The *ekwos etymon doesn't work in many languages : English "horse" is "of unknown origins", Spanish "caballo" (= French "cheval, = Irish "capall", = Welsh "cefyll"), Danish "heste", Breton "marc'h" (= Welsh "march") as well. I am not sure but the Albanian kalë would not fit in *ekwos without dramatic manipulations. It tends to indicate that the PIE urvolk did not have a specific horse culture.
urvolk :
To be a bit provocative (as I like to be and as Sparkey rightly stated ), I would also add : are we sure that a PIE urvolk ever existed ? We have clear linguistic convergences (although many of them are based upon heavily distorted interpretations), is it sufficient to declare that you had an urvolk and an urheimat and horses and bronze swords and conquest and the like ? Well, I don't think so. I don't discard the hypothesis of a PIE urvolk, I am just wondering, this is after all only a hypothesis.
some thoughts of mine:
We have to be cautious about presence or absence of cognates words in languages
1- old words can have disappeared (and recently enough sometimes)
2- the litteral meaning of old words can evolve, even if giving birth to new meanings close enough or still related to old meanings (see the exchanges between meanings like «horse», «stallion», «mare», «foal» or «colt», «filly» ...)
3- on another side, without shift of meaning, by instance, in a population where horses are common and well used for different purposes, a lot of names can exist for them, more precise (we see that even in french): according to gener, to task/use (food, ploughing, war...) you can find diverse names: it does not prove that these different words haad been loaned to foreign languages and cultures... not always.
'horse' (I red it) would be for *'hros' << **'kros' ? (dutch 'ros', french 'rosse' = «bad horse») – so not isolated in lonely english -
as said by Taranis (I believe) *'ekw-' has some sons as 'hyppos', 'epos' >> 'each' (gaelic, irish) + 'ebol'/'ebeul' (welsh/breton) and as 'yegua'/'egua'/'iapä'(«mare» in spanish, portugales, romanian)
*'capall'-'caball' common to latn and celtic languages gave names in occidental languages but too in slavic ones like 'kobyla', 'kobila' (mare) -
*'mark-' is common to celtic languages as 'marc' (gaelic) and 'march'/'marc'h («stallion» in welsh and breton) but germanic had the same root in ancient 'marh' or 'marah' (marhskall >> 'marshall', 'maréchal' in english and french, and I suppose 'mare'/'merrie'/'merr' (english, dutch, norvegian) have some ancient connexions too as maybe 'hoppe' (norvégian, swedish) with *'caball-'...
the scandinavian 'hest'/'häst' could have a link too with welsh and breton 'caseg'/'kaseg'...
diversity of namings is not always a sign of loans -
I have sone difficulties to imagine that all these words were picked up here and there by the first
I-Eans: surely some words are not I-E but the basic ones, MORE THAN A NAME, were in western I-E, I suppose... it is not to disprove some heterogeneity concerning the naming of the horse in I-E: the example of slavic 'konj' (connected to turkic by someones) shows what seams a loan word;
just to say: be carefull concerning multiplicity of forms!
I 'm very doubtfull concerning ancient I-E = convergence of different languages (super-creole?): NO P-I-E thesis:
the majority of basic words for family, physical environment, body, basic verbs are not a distorded intellectual construction to create a forged common origin, as say someones: not all of them; even the conjugaisons endings show some similitude between say breton and persian (verbe 'to be')! It is not possible if I-E is only a convergence of not related languages – or I have not well understood what people were meaning about that.
Have a good supper!