Illyria

[Sile]

That shouldn't be an opinion, that's a fact, it has been for a couple of decades now. They were different from each other. Dalmatians covered the narrow coastal strip of the Adriatic. This one https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Romanian_origins_map.PNG Other regions seem to be independent of it, and have developed independently from it, despite all being included in the so called Roman Illyricum. Dardanians seemed to have been a distinct group of people, but they didn't have Tharcian toponyms to be considered Thracian so they were made Illyrians by default, which is illogical to me. So were Panonians (likely Celtic IMO) and all the others I've left without mentioning.

dardanians are grouped with macedonians and Paeonians ( not pannonians) , they where taken to fight for Alexander in the Persian wars. No illyrians where taken as they where noted as barbarians and also Macedonai and an illyrian tribe had a truce after many years of war.

this book is a good account of the areas in question .....main wars between macedonians and 2 illyrian tribes was around 350BC
[h=1]A Companion to Ancient Macedonia[/h] edited by Joseph Roisman, Ian Worthington

 

[adamo]

None of that was madness, you guys just don't know better yet. The Illyrians were a homogenous group inhabiting the Bosnia region on the Adriatic coast; you will see I was right one day. Later on, celts and Slavs would assimilate with them as well (Slavs in particular) leading many to believe they were a "package" that came as one, which is false until more recent times.

 

[adamo]

The original Illyrians have nothing to do with the later ones in several locales that were celticized or slavicized by far more recent invaders to the region.

 

[adamo]

Secondly, both E-V13 and J2b have a very southern Balkanic distribution, never affecting the genetic hegemony of the Dalmatian alps region. Third, both R1b from the west and R1a from the east where much LATER arrivals that assimilated to a certain degree with the original Illyrians. In fact, most of their migrations into Illyrian territory can still be historically recounted; that's how recent. The men of I2a2 where lost into prehistory from the Bosnian/Croatian region. Also, derivatives of the Illyrians (thracians,Dacians) were known as having reddish hair and blue eyes; many had very European features, not that that last argument counts for anything lol but anyways.

 

[kamani]

@adamo, don't be fooled by the high concentration of I2a-din in Bosnia because Bosnia is only 3.7 million people. The Balkans were never able to hold too many people because there is a lot of mountains and the land is infertile. That's why the great Macedonians lost to the Romans, they had no more soldiers and resources as opposed to Rome that could always throw more soldiers in a fight. The Illyrians were very few compared to the Romans or the Slavs. The Byzantines did not know what to do at the time, because the Slavs were coming in large waves as economic immigrants.

 

[adamo]

Ok lol, doesn't change my argument, start reading from much earlier.

 

[Garrick]

The original Illyrians have nothing to do with the later ones in several locales that were celticized or slavicized by far more recent invaders to the region.

A lot of Serbs has your opinion.

In the Balkans most numerous I2a carriers are Serbian men, about 1.300.000, (Croatian men about 850.000 and Bosniacs men about 500.000).

These Serbs say that I haplogroup is the oldest haplogroup in the Balkans, about 25.000 years ago, and Serbs are the the oldest people.

But it is not quite correct.

Because, I told you, once I haplogroup was most numerous in Europe, but I carriers had large decline.

That space filled carriers of other haplogroup.

We can debate when first R1a carriers came in the Balkans, in the late Paleolithic or early Holocene but, they came very early, at least 9.000 years ago.

Also, another carriers came to the Balkans, probably G carriers.

We can debate when E and J carriers came to the Balkans, 4.000 or earlier?, 3.000?, 2000? years BC or in historic times.

And R1b and new wave of R1a carriers etc.

But the fact is that I2a Dinaric is not so old as his older I ancestors. You and Serbs who have same theory as you have no answer.

As Serbs who search "lost I2a language". Are you and they sure that such language existed.

And another thing, Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats have same haplogroups and speak same language. Difference between them is not origin or language. Difference is religion.

Serbian researchers can search "lost I2a language" but I afraid that it is a waste of time and resources.

 

[adamo]

Yeah G passed by south-central Greece to arrive in southern Italy and then end up on Sardinia but G presence across Balkans? Extremely low frequency. E3b and J2 both arrived during the Neolithic period, same for G (5,000-10,000 years ago.) Again, I repeat, the men of I2a were the first to arrive in the Balkans; the indo-Europeans arrived much later, possibly even AFTER the Neolithic haplogroups (notably E-V13 and J2b) had arrived in certain parts of the southern Balkans.

 

[Zemra]

dardanians are grouped with macedonians and Paeonians ( not pannonians) , they where taken to fight for Alexander in the Persian wars. No illyrians where taken as they where noted as barbarians and also Macedonai and an illyrian tribe had a truce after many years of war.

this book is a good account of the areas in question .....main wars between macedonians and 2 illyrian tribes was around 350BC
A Companion to Ancient Macedonia

edited by Joseph Roisman, Ian Worthington

Dardanians in Balkans are mostly outside the Greek sphere of influence. Remind me, Philip II, Alexander's father married a Dardanian princess/queen/leader (or whatever she was called) so that's what got him the support. Paeonians are another distinct group, also not Greek, but inside the Greek sphere of influence, as they seemed to have lots of Greek loans. Thraco-Illyrian is used to describe both, although Paleo-Balkanic it's a more proper term to describe all. I'm still pretty sure Pannonians were Celtic.

Secondly, both E-V13 and J2b have a very southern Balkanic distribution, never affecting the genetic hegemony of the Dalmatian alps region. Third, both R1b from the west and R1a from the east where much LATER arrivals that assimilated to a certain degree with the original Illyrians. In fact, most of their migrations into Illyrian territory can still be historically recounted; that's how recent. The men of I2a2 where lost into prehistory from the Bosnian/Croatian region. Also, derivatives of the Illyrians (thracians,Dacians) were known as having reddish hair and blue eyes; many had very European features, not that that last argument counts for anything lol but anyways.

As for the appearance, they were described as redhaired by people born in modern day Greece and Turkey (like Στράβων ). Colors are relative. What's called honey blonde (google it), it's not blonde for quite a few people, but brown. Red hair is widespread in Scotland. There's also the Udmurt people beyond the Ural mountains, but you said European looking so they're out. I'm pretty sure this was not the red hair they were describing, auburn would be a modern day definition. Or just brown. Or lighter than black. Not black.

In 1848 James Henry Skeene described Albanians as "...preserving a marked distinction from the Greeks, in form and physiognomy, having light eyes and high cheek-bones..." when compared to Greeks and Turks. Paraphrasing: All three Greeks, Albanians, and Turks look different from each other: Albanians are the light featured ones, Turks are the asiatic looking ones, Greeks are Mediterranean looking. When compared to each other...It's all relative. Thracians were described as red haired and blue eyed compared to Ancient Greeks. Which makes sense for the region. Genes do not dissapear, example these are Tocharian genes in China: http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z292/dinnerinabottle/blonde2.jpg

Yes, of course, Kosovo Albanians are Geg (Gheg) Albanians. There are some Tosks who came from Albania, but there are no "Tosk community".

Researchers found a pretty big difference between Geg and Tosk haplogroups, and the most difference is in I2a, Tosk Albanians have significant I2a but Geg Albanians have by far the least I2a among the nations in the Balkans.

It would be good to conduct more researches.

I2a reaches its peak in South East Albania, where there was once a significant Vlach community. However, J2b peaks in South West Albania were there was and is a significant Vlach community. There was a test done of Vlach people and they differed wildly depending where they were. There was no haplogroup connected specifically with Vlach people, so they might have had numerous founder effects to explain these differences. Here's a map http://www.farsarotul.org/images/NL26_1F.jpg Where it says Lunca to Moscopie is where I2a in Albania peaks http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif . Is that a good start?

 

[adamo]

Whoever dislike my comment explain why. The highest G frequencies in Greece by far are on the Thessaloniki region (12%) which was the way these men followed (G-P15+) from turkey into southeastern Europe then southern italy and northern Sardinia.

 

[Sile]

A lot of Serbs has your opinion.

In the Balkans most numerous I2a carriers are Serbian men, about 1.300.000, (Croatian men about 850.000 and Bosniacs men about 500.000).

These Serbs say that I haplogroup is the oldest haplogroup in the Balkans, about 25.000 years ago, and Serbs are the the oldest people.

But it is not quite correct.

Because, I told you, once I haplogroup was most numerous in Europe, but I carriers had large decline.

That space filled carriers of other haplogroup.

We can debate when first R1a carriers came in the Balkans, in the late Paleolithic or early Holocene but, they came very early, at least 9.000 years ago.

Also, another carriers came to the Balkans, probably G carriers.

We can debate when E and J carriers came to the Balkans, 4.000 or earlier?, 3.000?, 2000? years BC or in historic times.

And R1b and new wave of R1a carriers etc.

But the fact is that I2a Dinaric is not so old as his older I ancestors. You and Serbs who have same theory as you have no answer.

As Serbs who search "lost I2a language". Are you and they sure that such language existed.

And another thing, Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats have same haplogroups and speak same language. Difference between them is not origin or language. Difference is religion.

Serbian researchers can search "lost I2a language" but I afraid that it is a waste of time and resources.

Serbs claim I marker is older because they originate from the Thracian Triballi tribe, the serb nobility and government use the triballi Boar icon in their letters and documents.

They ( serbs) want to say the slavs have always been in the balkans

 

[Sile]

Dardanians in Balkans are mostly outside the Greek sphere of influence. Remind me, Philip II, Alexander's father married a Dardanian princess/queen/leader (or whatever she was called) so that's what got him the support. Paeonians are another distinct group, also not Greek, but inside the Greek sphere of influence, as they seemed to have lots of Greek loans. Thraco-Illyrian is used to describe both, although Paleo-Balkanic it's a more proper term to describe all. I'm still pretty sure Pannonians were Celtic.

I have never said and will never say that the ancient Macedonians are greek.

Macedonians, dardanians and paeonians are all another seperate branch, not greek, not thracian and definitely not illyrian because Illyrians where the last to arrive in the area in question of these peoples.

 

[Sile]

As for the appearance, they were described as redhaired by people born in modern day Greece and Turkey (like Στράβων ). Colors are relative. What's called honey blonde (google it), it's not blonde for quite a few people, but brown. Red hair is widespread in Scotland. There's also the Udmurt people beyond the Ural mountains, but you said European looking so they're out. I'm pretty sure this was not the red hair they were describing, auburn would be a modern day definition. Or just brown. Or lighter than black. Not black.

Venetian blond^[19] or honey blond: reddish blond.

Honey blond originally called venetian blond , name change by Americans. The blond has red in it and its noted that 60% of Veneti females originally had it during the times Venice was a separate nation. Apparently men do not get this type of colour.........I never checked why

 

[Garrick]

Serbs claim I marker is older because they originate from the Thracian Triballi tribe, the serb nobility and government use the triballi Boar icon in their letters and documents.

They ( serbs) want to say the slavs have always been in the balkans

Yes, I know that Serbs have roots in some Thracian and Illyrian tribes.

There is problem time of the I2a in the Balkans, but it is less problem.

Because accuracy is not easy to determine and can vary over a wide range, also I2a derived from older I ancestors, and there are no dispute that haplogoup I generally is the oldest in the Balkans.

For researchers the biggest problem is language, and member of forum Adamo very well observed it.

Key problem is language of I2a carriers, whether someone should search "lost I2a language" or no, I think it is waste of time and resources because language of I2a and R1a carriers in the Balkans is same language.

 

[Bardhyl]

Serbs claim I marker is older because they originate from the Thracian Triballi tribe, the serb nobility and government use the triballi Boar icon in their letters and documents.

They ( serbs) want to say the slavs have always been in the balkans

yes they (slavs) always will claim that they were first in balkan, older than ancient greek there, they are probably older than homosapiens too, in switzerland we call this Wunschdenken (wishthinking), believing things which they want to believe is true, this thinking no prove can change.
And they dont mention even once that i2a also came with slavs too, which you can see on the link below. And slavs r1a is not the one who came with slavs but the old one (wunschdenken), and their i2a is not the one which also came with slavs, but the old thraco-illyro-dacian one (wunschdenken), they always were there, they once were fighting with dinosaurs in the balkans, and thAts why you cant find dinosaurs bones in that region, because dinosaurs flee away.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

 

[Ike]

That's pure disinformation! Nowhere in any school book written in Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian or Bulgarian can you find such claims. They all agree about Slav migration to Balkans in 6th century, and not knowing the origin of original inhabitants. There are multiple theories about Thracian, Dacian, Celtic, Pelasgian or llyrian origin and some of them have Africans, Amazons, Atlants, Aryans, Slavs, Semits and other participants, but those theories are reserved for internet forums and alternative content TV shows.

 

[Zemra]

Venetian blond^[19] or honey blond: reddish blond.

Honey blond originally called venetian blond , name change by Americans. The blond has red in it and its noted that 60% of Veneti females originally had it during the times Venice was a separate nation. Apparently men do not get this type of colour.........I never checked why

I'm saying hair color is relative. I don't think it's blond but light brown, but it's in the name. You can disagree if you want, it's fine, you're just proving what I said, that is relative. Just like people disagree on what's beautiful. Or the temperature, some say 20 degrees it's cold other say it's hot. People tend to agree on extremes though. Here's the hair color in question:

I have never said and will never say that the ancient Macedonians are greek.

Macedonians, dardanians and paeonians are all another seperate branch, not greek, not thracian and definitely not illyrian because Illyrians where the last to arrive in the area in question of these peoples.

Not even Illyrians were all Illyrians, they were included in a territory called Illyria. They didn't even call themselves Illyrian. It's like nationality vs ethnicity today. If you read about their clothing, hairstyles, pottery etc. they were vastly different so they couldn't have been homogenous. But I do think they sounded alike to foreigners (Greeks, Romans etc.), thus being grouped together. The Balkan sprachbund is likely the reason why. Or a modern day example, people can recognize an accent as Eastern European, but they can't really pinpoint which country. Makes sense because they don't have the same exposure. Maybe that was a bad example because most EE are Slavic, but I think you understand my point.

If you can see, I'm more interested on the linguistic side.

 

[adamo]

On what grounds do they claim that the Illyrians where indo-Europeans? They have a few words here and there that they fail to classify (barely anything is known on Illyrian tongue) and make unsubstantiated claims that the Illyrians came out of PIE homeland as well; I'll never believe it.

 

[Garrick]

yes they (slavs) always will claim that they were first in balkan, older than ancient greek there, they are probably older than homosapiens too, in switzerland we call this Wunschdenken (wishthinking), believing things which they want to believe is true, this thinking no prove can change.
And they dont mention even once that i2a also came with slavs too, which you can see on the link below. And slavs r1a is not the one who came with slavs but the old one (wunschdenken), and their i2a is not the one which also came with slavs, but the old thraco-illyro-dacian one (wunschdenken), they always were there, they once were fighting with dinosaurs in the balkans, and thAts why you cant find dinosaurs bones in that region, because dinosaurs flee away.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

Yes. Slavs lived before dinosaurs. And when dinosaurs emerged Slavs used dinosaurs as domestic animals and for menu. However, when mammals emerged, Slavs changed the menu and dinosaurs were no longer needed.

Science knows at least three waves of comings of R1a carriers to the Balkans in very long periods. I told more time, R1a carriers is not equal Slavs. There are a lot of R1a carriers in the world, and they are not all Slavs.

 

[adamo]

Well the Slavic incursions proper into Eastern Europe took place like about 1,000 years ago only; R1a may not even have been an element among ancient Greeks; it did not even represent a Greek tribe the way J2, E3b and I2a did. I think the Dorians were that continental invading R1b element that ruined Mycenean Greek culture.