Illyria

[adamo]

Doesn't matter; the I2a men didn't need to recolonize via Ukraine; they waited out the LGM in the Bosnian refuge; and I would like to see sources indicating heavy R1a movement into Europe back/before/during the R1b/ I days of moving into Europe. (I men arrived earliest).

 

[Bardhyl]

Pannonians where simply celticized Illyrians, the Illyrians were I2a2 and the Dacians and thracians derived from them; the original and still today inhabitants of the Dalmatian coast before the arrival of Slavs and then to a lesser degree celts.

why do you ignore the fact which is CLEARLY written, it doesnt hurt you to accept what is written, i2a is also derived from slavic invasion, (source eupedia I2 haplogroup) read and your eyes will get open, i dont get it why you are not reading it....just read the article thats all, read. ALL SLAVIC COUNTRIES OF TODAY carry i2a with them all without any exception. and all with over 5% and a lot more.

 

[adamo]

Yes, thracians may have been a mix....(still think they were I2a lol) but the Illyrians proper were certainly I2a2 people, very predominantly.

 

[adamo]

Yeah well, all Eastern Europe carries small levels of I2a2 without exception pretty much. "this phenomenon is explained by "contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs.." And "several groups have determined the common occurrence of this subclade in the South Slavic-speaking populations to be the result of "pre-Slavic" paleolithic settlement in the region"

 

[Bardhyl]

Yeah well, all Eastern Europe carries small levels of I2a2 without exception pretty much.

are you from croatia or bosnia working in italy, that would explain why you are not reading i2 haplogroup properly on eupedia....

 

[adamo]

No loll, modern distribution is not indicative of place of origin and besides; if R1a HAD in fact spread via the Ukrainian refuge/ Russian plains, wouldn't it be more frequent in Slovakia,Czech republic, Belarus (like 40-50% like R1a?) instead we see a frequency decline in general as we move slowly from Bosnia (50%) Croatia (40%) Slovenia (40%) Albania (20%) Hungary (20%) Romania (20%) etc. they way it's spread with a big blob near the Adriatic coast makes no sense if it came from Ukraine with R1a. It is indigenous to Bosnian refuge and subsequently spread at lower % from there.

 

[Sile]

are you from croatia or bosnia working in italy, that would explain why you are not reading i2 haplogroup properly on eupedia....

I don't think he is, more likely his T marker is from central Italy coming from crete or chios, previously cyprus and the levant.

I2a arriving from the slavs of ukraine in the darkages is a different line which was in the balkans from thracian/cimmerian line...........check KN

 

[adamo]

Which part of the levant in your opinion Sile? I am y-DNA T-L299 paternal, I2a maternal father and two mtdna H's all from Italy....only a small fraction of my genome but anyways....would you believe if I said I think the Phoenicians spread T? Peaks in Cadiz on Iberia , Ibiza islans, western Sicily, northern Corsica; all Phoenician colonies.

 

[Bardhyl]

Still closed your eyes

No loll, modern distribution is not indicative of place of origin and besides; if R1a HAD in fact spread via the Ukrainian refuge/ Russian plains, wouldn't it be more frequent in Slovakia,Czech republic, Belarus (like 40-50% like R1a?) instead we see a frequency decline in general as we move slowly from Bosnia (50%) Croatia (40%) Slovenia (40%) Albania (20%) Hungary (20%) Romania (20%) etc. they way it's spread with a big blob near the Adriatic coast makes no sense if it came from Ukraine with R1a. It is indigenous to Bosnian refuge and subsequently spread at lower % from there.

but it is a fact that south slavs carry more i2a and north slavs r1a, and both slavs carry of the respective other one with a smaller percentage, i am not inventing anything, it all says on eupedia i2 haplogroup, which says that the last i2a-din came also with the south slavs. but i dont get the feeling away that you are from dalmatia working in italy. it wouldnt be a shame to you.

just read i2 haplogroup it is written very clearly. dont deny it.

 

[adamo]

Moms dad is y-DNA I2a from Tuscany believe it or not; Pisa region.

 

[Garrick]

Doesn't matter; the I2a men didn't need to recolonize via Ukraine; they waited out the LGM in the Bosnian refuge; and I would like to see sources indicating heavy R1a movement into Europe back/before/during the R1b/ I days of moving into Europe. (I men arrived earliest).

I can agree with you that probably I carriers were first in the Balkans, maybe 25,000 years ago, maybe earlier. But they moved.

R1a carriers came to the Balkans about 10,000 ago or more? (scientists are dealing with large differences dating back Balkanic R1a in Paleolitic or early Halocene). It is mistake that for these first Balkans R1a carriers some members of forums think that they are Slavs.

R1a carriers massively came to the Balkans about 3000 years BC and after. And it is for debate whether they are Slavs. These R1a carriers are associated with Indo European Kurgan culture.

Naive observers think R1a=Slavs and R1a came to the Balkans only in seventh century. No. In the world there are a lot of R1a carriers who are not Slavs. And today's Slavic people are mixed R1a/I2a but and another haplogroups.

R1a is very old in the Balkans and scientists proved this. But some observer can notice that R1a is quitle evenly distributed among today's Balkan's people: Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, Bosniacs, Romanians, etc. Somewhat higher in Croats and even greater in Slovenes (but Slovenes are not in the Balkans).

For example difference between Serbs/Bosniacs/Croats and Albanians is not so R1a. All people have R1a in some significant percent, including Albanians.

Main difference is I2a, because (Geg) Albanians have small percent I2a. Tosk Albanians have much more than Geges. Eupedia don't give right picture (you can see Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia) because in Albania there are no division Geges, Tosks, and in Macedonia there are no division Albanians, Macedonians. Kosovo is more realistic because Kosovo Albanians are Geges (there are no significant numbers of Tosks in Kosovo).

 

[adamo]

So why are all these Slavic languages like Slovene or Serbian distantly related to say, polish for example, if they don't all have that same R1a source? How could a mix of I2a and R1a people in the Balkans have developed a Slavic language/identity if it wasn't for Slavic R1a presence? Anyways, it sure wasn't those pre-indo-European I2a2 men. Their pre-indo-European language was replaced.

 

[Sile]

Which part of the levant in your opinion Sile? I am y-DNA T-L299 paternal, I2a maternal father and two mtdna H's all from Italy....only a small fraction of my genome but anyways....would you believe if I said I think the Phoenicians spread T? Peaks in Cadiz on Iberia , Ibiza islans, western Sicily, northern Corsica; all Phoenician colonies.

Talk about this in T thread, but phoenicians is plausible, remember that T in Persia was known as the "phoenicians" of the indian ocean, migrating to arabia and east africa via sea. so they where mariners as well

 

[adamo]

Correct, it is also present in multiple individuals I know from Saudi Arabia.

 

[Garrick]

So why are all these Slavic languages like Slovene or Serbian distantly related to say, polish for example, if they don't all have that same R1a source? How could a mix of I2a and R1a people in the Balkans have developed a Slavic language/identity if it wasn't for Slavic R1a presence? Anyways, it sure wasn't those pre-indo-European I2a2 men. Their pre-indo-European language was replaced.

Yes, it is good question. I told you, things are not so simple. Some I2a Serbs tried to find "lost" I2a language. I doubt they are on the right track.

Generally I population once were much numerous in Europe. But I carriers have experienced decline. Someone can see I1 and I2 haplogroup in European countries, especially in Scandinavia and Balkans, but numbers of R1b and R1a carriers much higher.

It is possible that today's I2a-Din people never had hypotetical "lost" language. In other words, maybe they spoke same language as R1a.

Of course, answers are not easy. For me is very interesting what language had first R1a carriers in the Balkans (20-12 KYA). What language spoke R1a carriers in Balkans who came about 3KYA BC (Kurgan culture). Nobody gave satisfactory answers to these questions, only hypothesis.

 

[Zemra]

Main difference is I2a, because (Geg) Albanians have small percent I2a. Tosk Albanians have much more than Geges. Eupedia don't give right picture (you can see Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia) because in Albania there are no division Geges, Tosks, and in Macedonia there are no division Albanians, Macedonians. Kosovo is more realistic because Kosovo Albanians are Geges (there are no significant numbers of Tosks in Kosovo).

I feel the need to explain the distinction, because everyone talks about Tosks and Ghegs like it knows everything

Ok, let me make it clear. Gheg and Tosk a dialect split, not tribes. Moving further, Tosk are split in (N to S) Northern Tosk, Lab, Cham, Arbëresh and Arvanitika. Gheg are split in (S to N) Southern Gheg, Central Albanians, Malësor, Dukagjin (or Kosovo since it's more numerous, but includes NE Albania too, so I'm using this name) and Albanci. There's also a transitional dialect between. Rivers are generally used to mark the (approximate) borders, but other factors too are considered (like being in Greece, Italy, Croatia or a high isolated terrain).

The main difference is the Tosk rhotacim, basically n>r eg wine Gheg venë > Tosk verë and this is what give the people its name. There are other differences like:
Gheg has 17 vowels > Tosk has 7 vowels, substitites all Gheg long and nasal vowels with ë
or
Treatment of consonants and vowels, Gheg tends to assimilate, Tosk tends to add.
etc.
but the first is the most important as it's a feature in what makes Ghegs Gheg and Tosks Tosk. The secondary differences are used to make the distinction of minor dialects between each other.

So all Kosovo Albanians are Gheg. So are Central Albanans, despite Ghegs are generally considered to be Northern Albanians. North Albania is defined as North the Shkumbin river. However there's an exception in Albanians of Ukraine, they're Tosks not Gheg, despite Ukraine being much much more in N than Albanci of Croatia.

I listed all the names needed to know (repeat: Albanci, Dukagjinas/Kosovar, Malësor/Malsor/Malcor, Central Albanians, Southern Gheg, Transitional, Northern Tosk, Lab, Cham, Arbëresh, Arvanitika).

IMO

- Illyrians tribes are all different to each other and had no language similarities, the illyrians where created between Eastern austria and hungaria, sometimes the pannonians of hungarian soil are know as Illyrians. written History states they invaded the balkans from the north and slowly took land to finally be stopped by the macedonians of Alexander the great times. They did not participate in alexanders Persian wars because they where not "greek" . The epirotes of northern greece and albania went to fight the Persians with Alexander. The illyrians where absorbed by celtic migrations from the alps. the celts got as far as greece. Basically by the time the Romans arrived and Queen teuta fought them, the illyrians where a minor nuisance to the Romans, it was only their piracy thats was an issue. They where R1b in majority with some G.

- The thracians if we include the Dacians, Getae and their relatives the cimmerians where the most populous, I believe they brought I2a2 into the balkans after the scythians arrived on the northern parts of the black sea. The thracians would have also had the E and J markers. ( i am usure on any R but maybe as per mr. hammer it would be L11 from modern Bulgaria) The cimmerians fled to the plains of hungaria and serbia in 700BC ( not earlier)

That shouldn't be an opinion, that's a fact, it has been for a couple of decades now. They were different from each other. Dalmatians covered the narrow coastal strip of the Adriatic. This one https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Romanian_origins_map.PNG Other regions seem to be independent of it, and have developed independently from it, despite all being included in the so called Roman Illyricum. Dardanians seemed to have been a distinct group of people, but they didn't have Tharcian toponyms to be considered Thracian so they were made Illyrians by default, which is illogical to me. So were Panonians (likely Celtic IMO) and all the others I've left without mentioning.


Whenever Illyria or Illyrians start as topics, the Albanian connection will start as well.
As for Albanian origins, what's sure is that it was created somewhere between Germanic, Baltic, Scythian, Greek, Celtic, just to map it, not coastal, neither Adriatic nor Black sea. That basically means the non-Greek, non-coastal part of the Balkans which it's a pretty big place. Judging by the Latin traces in the language, Albanians were included pretty early in the Roman Empire (BC times). Proto-Albanian (pre Roman influence Albanian) shows two distinct times, Early PA, spoken much more closely to Baltic (not Slavic though, which makes me wonder where were thy located at this time), Late PA spoken much more closely to Greek (nowhere close to Armenian though). Majority were cattle-breeders, and in the waters around whirpools were common. Also, had a solar cult, more specifically a sunset divinity was the central god. That's what you get only from lingustic testimony. That's what all the theories on the origin of Albanians agree on, it doesn't mention anyone in particular. That's what's expected to be expanded.

 

[Garrick]

Ok, let me make it clear. Gheg and Tosk a dialect split, not tribes. Moving further, Tosk are split in (N to S) Northern Tosk, Lab, So all Kosovo Albanians are Gheg.

Yes, of course, Kosovo Albanians are Geg (Gheg) Albanians. There are some Tosks who came from Albania, but there are no "Tosk community".

Researchers found a pretty big difference between Geg and Tosk haplogroups, and the most difference is in I2a, Tosk Albanians have significant I2a but Geg Albanians have by far the least I2a among the nations in the Balkans.

It would be good to conduct more researches.

 

[MOESAN]

Oups! what a warm discussion (hot maybe?) - thanks to Zemra for some precious details about albanian languages and regions -
just my point here, to make, perhaps, the discussion clearer:
old opinions about Ilyyrians are out of date, really - Illyrians were not that ocean of people our old scholars believed and who colonized (supposedly) entire central Europe: it seems that very often Veneti and akin people were confused with true Illyrians - Veneti were closer to Italics, genuine Illyrians closer to Thracians and Getae/Dacians and some other intermediary people, maybe among them ancestors of Albanians- the Lusacian placenames or rivers had their "cousins" in places of the Illyricum coasts so ancient scholars took that as a proof of a link between Illyrians and first bearers of the Urnfields of Lusace, come from Hungary or N Croatia - Hallstatt birth was considered as the result of contacts between eastern alpine Celts and Illyrian - it seems to me with our today "knowledge" (separation of the roman Illyricum in two parts: N: Veneti or family, S: true Illyrians) that it is more evident (linguistically too) to consider Hallstatt as a Veneti or proto-Veneti impulse among Celtic tribes - -history of latine and osco-umbrian people is linked for a long time to N-Croatia Hungary at a first stage-
concerning Y- HGs , a) we have no very ancient settlements in Dalmatia-Dinaric Alpes - b) Y-I2a1b seems ancient enough in central Europe and could have got down to Yugoslavia more recently that believed- c) Slavs (a bet) are for me proto-Balts modified by contacts with more southern people, I-E or not and it seems to me that, aside the 'mediterranean' neolithical heritage (before and during metals, because the first metallurgists were the first peasants or breeders: Starcevo,then Cucuteni-Tr.) they mixed a lot with previous Carpathians populations where I think Y-I2a2 was predominant (I think that at the "apotheose" of Cucuteni-Tripolje culture, these southern and carpathian elements were present far North until Bela-Russia : look at autosomals maps)- so Slavs of South could very well have send samples of this HG with them to Yugoslavia and to other places, reinforcing the first Y-I2a1b; only a peer study of downstream I2a SNPs in Yugolsavia and Balkans could give us a good picture -
but I'm not so smart as someones to predict exactly which tribe or people was pure I2a1b or pure R1a because at first sight, there were always some slight or heavy crossings in these populations -

 

[Bardhyl]

Oups! what a warm discussion (hot maybe?) - thanks to Zemra for some precious details about albanian languages and regions -
just my point here, to make, perhaps, the discussion clearer:
old opinions about Ilyyrians are out of date, really - Illyrians were not that ocean of people our old scholars believed and who colonized (supposedly) entire central Europe: it seems that very often Veneti and akin people were confused with true Illyrians - Veneti were closer to Italics, genuine Illyrians closer to Thracians and Getae/Dacians and some other intermediary people, maybe among them ancestors of Albanians- the Lusacian placenames or rivers had their "cousins" in places of the Illyricum coasts so ancient scholars took that as a proof of a link between Illyrians and first bearers of the Urnfields of Lusace, come from Hungary or N Croatia - Hallstatt birth was considered as the result of contacts between eastern alpine Celts and Illyrian - it seems to me with our today "knowledge" (separation of the roman Illyricum in two parts: N: Veneti or family, S: true Illyrians) that it is more evident (linguistically too) to consider Hallstatt as a Veneti or proto-Veneti impulse among Celtic tribes - -history of latine and osco-umbrian people is linked for a long time to N-Croatia Hungary at a first stage-
concerning Y- HGs , a) we have no very ancient settlements in Dalmatia-Dinaric Alpes - b) Y-I2a1b seems ancient enough in central Europe and could have got down to Yugoslavia more recently that believed- c) Slavs (a bet) are for me proto-Balts modified by contacts with more southern people, I-E or not and it seems to me that, aside the 'mediterranean' neolithical heritage (before and during metals, because the first metallurgists were the first peasants or breeders: Starcevo,then Cucuteni-Tr.) they mixed a lot with previous Carpathians populations where I think Y-I2a2 was predominant (I think that at the "apotheose" of Cucuteni-Tripolje culture, these southern and carpathian elements were present far North until Bela-Russia : look at autosomals maps)- so Slavs of South could very well have send samples of this HG with them to Yugoslavia and to other places, reinforcing the first Y-I2a1b; only a peer study of downstream I2a SNPs in Yugolsavia and Balkans could give us a good picture -
but I'm not so smart as someones to predict exactly which tribe or people was pure I2a1b or pure R1a because at first sight, there were always some slight or heavy crossings in these populations -

Thanks, finally someone who understands.
i2a came with south slavs also.

Quote i2 haplogroup eupedia:
This branch is found overwhelmingly in Slavic countries. Its maximum frequencies are observed among the Dinaric Slavs (Slovenes, Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians) as well as in Bulgaria, Romania, Moldavia, western Ukraine and Belarus. It is also common to a lower extent in Albania, Greece, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, and south-western Russia. I2-L621 (L147.2+) is also known as as I2a-Din (for Dinaric). (Eupedia.com i2 haplogroup)

The second great expansion of I2a-Din took place with the Slavic migration in the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages. I2a-Din had started to mix with Proto-Indo-Euroepan.(Eupedia.com i2 haplogroup)

Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south owes to the cumulative effect of Bronze Age and Early Iron Age migrations (Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians) and the medieval Slavic migrations. The relatively high percentage of of I2a-L621 in non-Slavic people like the Hungarians (15% ), Albanians (12%) and Greeks (9%) dates from the Bronze Age (Eupedia.com i2 haplogroup)

 

[Eldritch]

Oups! what a warm discussion (hot maybe?) - thanks to Zemra for some precious details about albanian languages and regions -
just my point here, to make, perhaps, the discussion clearer:
old opinions about Ilyyrians are out of date, really - Illyrians were not that ocean of people our old scholars believed and who colonized (supposedly) entire central Europe: it seems that very often Veneti and akin people were confused with true Illyrians - Veneti were closer to Italics, genuine Illyrians closer to Thracians and Getae/Dacians and some other intermediary people, maybe among them ancestors of Albanians- the Lusacian placenames or rivers had their "cousins" in places of the Illyricum coasts so ancient scholars took that as a proof of a link between Illyrians and first bearers of the Urnfields of Lusace, come from Hungary or N Croatia - Hallstatt birth was considered as the result of contacts between eastern alpine Celts and Illyrian - it seems to me with our today "knowledge" (separation of the roman Illyricum in two parts: N: Veneti or family, S: true Illyrians) that it is more evident (linguistically too) to consider Hallstatt as a Veneti or proto-Veneti impulse among Celtic tribes - -history of latine and osco-umbrian people is linked for a long time to N-Croatia Hungary at a first stage-
concerning Y- HGs , a) we have no very ancient settlements in Dalmatia-Dinaric Alpes - b) Y-I2a1b seems ancient enough in central Europe and could have got down to Yugoslavia more recently that believed- c) Slavs (a bet) are for me proto-Balts modified by contacts with more southern people, I-E or not and it seems to me that, aside the 'mediterranean' neolithical heritage (before and during metals, because the first metallurgists were the first peasants or breeders: Starcevo,then Cucuteni-Tr.) they mixed a lot with previous Carpathians populations where I think Y-I2a2 was predominant (I think that at the "apotheose" of Cucuteni-Tripolje culture, these southern and carpathian elements were present far North until Bela-Russia : look at autosomals maps)- so Slavs of South could very well have send samples of this HG with them to Yugoslavia and to other places, reinforcing the first Y-I2a1b; only a peer study of downstream I2a SNPs in Yugolsavia and Balkans could give us a good picture -
but I'm not so smart as someones to predict exactly which tribe or people was pure I2a1b or pure R1a because at first sight, there were always some slight or heavy crossings in these populations -

First good post after a sea of madness.