Poland, more Germanic or Slavic?

[Taranis]

I would not be so sure about religion.
Bog, Djavol, Rai and some other terms are believed to come from Iranian to all Slavic languages.
These are important loans, arent they?

In my opinion, at least from the loanword Slavic-Iranian contacts were earlier, during the Proto-Slavic period (if I take the example of "bog", its subject to the sound shift *a > *o). Also, "Djavol" is in my opinion a loanword from Latin.

 

[Robert6]

Diavallo it is Greek
http://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/διαβάλλω

 

[Robert6]

I'm not saying there were no borrowings from Scythians into Slavic languages, though there are only unclear examples. What I meant is that for people who supposedly settled in these lands and created substratum of some polish tribes, there are too few borrowings to justify such hypothesis. There are also lack of polish or foreign sources hinting that Sarmatian ethnicities lived among West Slavic tribes, as minority. If they did at the beginning, by 1,000 AD they must have been completely assimilated, and no rich Sarmatian vocabulary was ever recorded in polish folk traditions.

Many Iranic words in Europe have only three not Iranian languages
Mokshan Language (Southern Finnic)
Hungarian (Western Ugric)
Noghay language (Turkic)

 

[LeBrok]

Well - actually Pliny the Elder mentioned some people called "Sarmati" living up to the River Vistula (Vistlam):

"Quidam haec habitari ad Vistlam usque fluvium a Sarmatis, Venedis, Sciris, Hirris."

I should have been more precise with my thoughts. The Sarmatians were in the area and Slavs somewhere near too.
After Slavic expansion, however, there is no mentioning about ethnic Sarmatians anymore and it doesn't seem as they had much, if any, input into Polish language and other cultural aspects.
In this light, to give Sarmatian heritage to tribe of Polans is unwise speculation.

 

[LeBrok]

Many Iranic words in Europe have only three not Iranian languages
Mokshan Language (Southern Finnic)
Hungarian (Western Ugric)
Noghay language (Turkic)

Could you rephrase what you said please. I'm not sure what you mean.
Are you saying that there are many Iranian words in these 3 languages?

 

[Melancon]

Could you rephrase what you said please. I'm not sure what you mean.
Are you saying that there are many Iranian words in these 3 languages?

Yeah, I didn't get it right either. I was wondering what he meant.

 

[arvistro]

In my opinion, at least from the loanword Slavic-Iranian contacts were earlier, during the Proto-Slavic period (if I take the example of "bog", its subject to the sound shift *a > *o). Also, "Djavol" is in my opinion a loanword from Latin.

I am not speaking about Sarmats in 500 AD or later. I am speaking of BC or 0 AD Sarmat influences. Also I speculate that difficult ethnonyms of M458 rich Slavic tribes might be of originally Sarmat origin (Czechs, Croats, Lechs). But I do not insist on that, just I would not be surprised. Polans ethnonym was already Slavic.

You are right about Dyavol, it comes from Greek originally. It was demon Div and god Bog which according to one version was introduced by Iranian tribes when old Indo-Iranian Dayvas was demonized to give place to new wealth god Bag.

 

[Robert6]

Could you rephrase what you said please. I'm not sure what you mean.
Are you saying that there are many Iranian words in these 3 languages?

These three languages Mokshan Noghay and Hungarian have more Iranian words than other languages of Europe,
ie the Iranian adstratum is much bigger in these three languages then in other languages of Europe.
There should be many Iranian words also in Adyghe dialects but I can not find works of linguists about this.

 

[Tomenable]

it doesn't seem as they had much, if any, input into Polish language and other cultural aspects.

How much do we even know about Sarmatian language and culture ???

There are Iranic linguistic influences (loans and infiltrations) and Iranic-Slavic Indo-European cognates (words of common origin from times when ancestors of Slavs and Iranics were one group - before they differentiated) in Slavic languages. But is it even possible to establish which of these Iranic influences are specifically Sarmatian? When it comes to the difference between loanwords and infiltrations:

Viktor V. Martynov defined the difference between a loan and an infiltration as follows (in short):

Inflitration is when there already exists a native term for a thing in a language, but a foreign term which is its exact synonym infiltrates. After that a "struggle" for domination between two exact synonyms starts, as the result of which one disappears or changes its meaning. Loans - unlike infiltrations - are when there is no native term for a given thing, and a foreign term is adopted to fill "empty space".

A loanword was for example Slavic word for "cross", as Slavs did not have any crosses before Christianization.

According to Ł. Godecki, loans do not require direct contact with speakers of a language from which a term originated. Loans can be passed indirectly from one linguistic groups to another, and so on, and so on. As the result of cultural exchange, spread of technology.

On the other hand, infiltration of terms from one group to another usually implies that the two groups were direct neighbours.

Infiltration may also indicate existence of a transitional bilingual region, where lived people who spoke both languages.

For example an infiltration (not a loan) was the replacement of Old English "leode" by Old French "peupel", which is now "people":

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/leode#Old_English

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=people

 

[arvistro]

Funny enough:
East Iranian loans into Proto-Slavic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic_borrowings#Slavic_and_Iranian
2 loanwords accepted for Common Slavic (*gonjā, *rāji). 2 more mentioned for West Slavic only (*gupānu (hpan, pan, župan), *pātrītej). And debate on others.

East Iranian loans into Proto-Germanic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language#Loans_from_adjoining_Indo-European_groups
8 loanwords accepted for proto-Germanic *hanapiz ‘hemp’ (cf. Khotanese kaṃhā, Ossetian gæn(æ) ‘flax’),^[18] *humalaz, humalǭ 'hops' (cf. Osset xumællæg), *keppǭ ~ skēpą 'sheep' (cf. Pers čapiš 'yearling kid'), *kurtilaz 'tunic' (cf. Osset k^wəræt 'shirt'), *kutą 'cottage' (cf. Pers kad 'house'), *paidō 'cloak',^[19] *paþaz 'path' (cf. Avestan pantā, g. pathō), and *wurstwa 'work' (cf. Av vərəštuua).
1 loanword debated.
Unsure is *marhaz 'horse', which was either borrowed directly from Scytho-Sarmatian or through Celtic mediation.

So, proto-Germanic has 4 times more accepted loans from East-Iranian than proto-Slavic. And West Slavic has 2 extra loans (in total 4) from East Iranian than Common Slavic (in total 2). Now there are 2 questions - is wiki credible here? If so, then what do we make of it?

 

[Robert6]

If so, then what do we make of it?

Possibly it is from Cimmerians (?),
When Scythians came to Pontic steppe part of Cimmerians possibly went to central Europe and mixed with proto-Germanic people.
Possibly Cimbri are partly descendants of Cimmerians.

 

[Tomenable]

The problem with Iranic-Slavic interactions is that many words are very similar but there is no consensus among linguists whether they are loans from Iranic to Slavic, loans from Slavic to Iranic, or maybe words of common origin (cognates) from times of unity, before Proto-Iranic and Proto-Slavic languages emerged. Here is a list

http://grzegorj.w.interia.pl/lingwpl/slowzap.html#z3

When it comes to deities and religion, we also have many common similarities - for example:

rajъ / Raj (Slavic) --- Ray (Sanskrit) --- Rayi (Persian)
Svarozic (Slavic) --- Svaraj (Sanskrit)

And also these are common in both Slavic and Iranic languages:

slava (Slavic) --- śravaḥ (Sanskrit) --- slave (Latvian)
swar / skwar (Slavic) --- xvar (Iranic) --- svar (Indo-Aryan)

Of course these can be cognates, not loanwords. For example slava / śravah / slave are cognates:

Proto-Slavic - slava

Noun: sla̋va f (accent paradigm a) - glory, fame

From Proto-Indo-European root noun *ḱlēw-, from the root *ḱlew- (“to hear”).

Cognate with Lithuanian šlovė̃ (“fame, honor”) (Samogitian šlóvė (“fame, honor”)) and Latvian slave (“fame, reputation, rumor”).

Reconstruction: Balto-Slavic *ślōuʔ-

Indo-European Sanskrit śrávas- n. 'fame, honour'; Greek κλέος n. 'fame'; OIr. clú f. 'fame, rumour'

Related terms:

*sluti (“be called”)
*slyšati (“to hear”)
*slyti (“have a reputation”)
*slušati (“to listen”)
*sluxъ (“hearing; rumor”)
*slovo (“word”)

Some over words which are almost identical or very similar in Slavic and Iranic languages
(I will provide them in English only, you can look up for original forms):

- "word"
- "god"
- "heaven"
- "demon"
- "grave"
- "mountain"
- "oblation"
- "to call"
- "to write"
- "to repent"
- "repenter"
- "to fear"
- "to take shelter"
- "to shine"
- "bonfire"
- "goblet"
- "health"
- "healthy"
- "sick"
- "evil"
- "shame"
- "wise"
- "faith"

===============================

As for Slavic and Iranic words for "heaven" and "demon":

The name of Lithuanian God Dievas is from Proto-Indo-European word *dieus, meaning "heaven".

However, in both Iranic and Slavic languages adjective *deiwos changed its meaning to describe demons (Iranic daeva, Slavic diva).

On the other hand, *dieus was replaced by nebah (Iranic) nebo (Old Slavic), niebo (modern Polish) as new word for "heaven".

But in Sanskrit "heaven" is dyou.

================================

Some similarities between Lithuanian and Sanskrit:

who = kva (Sanskrit ) = kas (Lithuanian)
god = devaha (Sanskrit) = dievas (Lithuanian)
horse = ashvaha (Sanskrit) = asva (Lithuanian)

And here a comparison of some Russian Sanskrit Lithuanian /// English words (and I add some Polish too):

Rus. Skr. Lith. Eng.
žalo jal geluones /// sting
žyolt jyotiḥ geltas /// yellow (Pl. żółty)
živ jīva gývas /// alive (Pl. żyw / żywy)
život jīvatha gyvatà /// life (Pl. żywot / życie)
zima hima žiemà /// winter (Pl. zima)
znat’ jānāti žinóti /// to know (Pl. znać)
iskat’ icchati ieškóti /// to want (to do smth.), look for
istina iṣṭani ištikimas /// truth
kaṣlyat’ kāsate kosėti /// to cough (Pl. kaszleć)
kovṣ kośa káušas /// scoop, ladle
kosa keśa kasà /// braid (of hair)
kotoriy katara katràs /// which (Pl. który)
krov’ kraviḥ kraũjas /// blood (Pl. krew)
kuda kutaḥ kur /// where to
kuṣ kuṣ kąsnis /// large amount
kuṣat‘ kuṣati kąsti /// to eat (in Pl. kęs is a piece of e.g. food)
lyogok laghu langas /// light (weight)
myod madhu mada /// medus honey (Pl. miód)
milovat’ milate myluoti /// to caress, fondle (Pl. miłować)
mneniye manaḥ manymas /// opinion (Pl. mniemanie)
mnit’ manate manyti /// to imagine, think
tak taka toks /// so
horoṣ hаṛṣа geras /// good
bleśet bhlāśate blyškėti /// shine (Pl. błyszczeć / błyskać)
bodr bhadra bodrus /// cheerful, hale and hearty
budit’ budhyate budinti /// to wake (Pl. budzić)
byvat’ bhavati buvati /// to be (Pl. być)
valit’ valiti velti /// to fell, bring down
vepr’ vaptṛ vepris /// boar (Pl. wieprz)
veter vātṛ vėtr /// wind (Pl. wiatr)
volk vṛka vilkas /// wolf (Pl. wilk)
govor gava gaura /// speech (Pl. gwara)
dver’ dvāra dùrys /// door (Pl. drzwi)
dvoye dvaya divai /// two (Pl. dwoje)
derevo dārava dervà /// tree (Pl. drzewo)

 

[Robert6]

Tomenable the words that you are showing here, are closer to Indic
The Catacomb culture in Pontic Steppe according to Kleijn was Proto-Indic.
Even in Ossetian language there are words that are closer to Indic than to Iranian.
Possibly there is an adstratum from a relic of Proto-Indic,
adstratum in Leto-Slavic, and in "northeast"-Iranian language families

 

[Tomenable]

My list was about similarities to Indo-Iranic(an) rather than just to Iranic(an).

 

[LeBrok]

Of course these can be cognates, not loanwords. For example slava / śravah / slave are cognates:

Probably word "slava" comes from "slova". If someone hears many words about a person, it makes this person famous.

who = kva (Sanskrit ) = kas (Lithuanian)
god = devaha (Sanskrit) = dievas (Lithuanian)

Interesting is word "dziewka" in polish meaning " a young girl, probably originally a virgin.

And here a comparison of some Russian Sanskrit Lithuanian /// English words (and I add some Polish too):

Rus. Skr. Lith. Eng.
žalo jal geluones /// sting
žyolt jyotiḥ geltas /// yellow (Pl. żółty)
živ jīva gývas /// alive (Pl. żyw / żywy)
život jīvatha gyvatà /// life (Pl. żywot / życie)
zima hima žiemà /// winter (Pl. zima)
znat’ jānāti žinóti /// to know (Pl. znać)
iskat’ icchati ieškóti /// to want (to do smth.), look for
istina iṣṭani ištikimas /// truth
kaṣlyat’ kāsate kosėti /// to cough (Pl. kaszleć)
kovṣ kośa káušas /// scoop, ladle
kosa keśa kasà /// braid (of hair)
kotoriy katara katràs /// which (Pl. który)
krov’ kraviḥ kraũjas /// blood (Pl. krew)
kuda kutaḥ kur /// where to
kuṣ kuṣ kąsnis /// large amount
kuṣat‘ kuṣati kąsti /// to eat (in Pl. kęs is a piece of e.g. food)
lyogok laghu langas /// light (weight)
myod madhu mada /// medus honey (Pl. miód)
milovat’ milate myluoti /// to caress, fondle (Pl. miłować)
mneniye manaḥ manymas /// opinion (Pl. mniemanie)
mnit’ manate manyti /// to imagine, think
tak taka toks /// so
horoṣ hаṛṣа geras /// good
bleśet bhlāśate blyškėti /// shine (Pl. błyszczeć / błyskać)
bodr bhadra bodrus /// cheerful, hale and hearty
budit’ budhyate budinti /// to wake (Pl. budzić)
byvat’ bhavati buvati /// to be (Pl. być)
valit’ valiti velti /// to fell, bring down
vepr’ vaptṛ vepris /// boar (Pl. wieprz)
veter vātṛ vėtr /// wind (Pl. wiatr)
volk vṛka vilkas /// wolf (Pl. wilk)
govor gava gaura /// speech (Pl. gwara)
dver’ dvāra dùrys /// door (Pl. drzwi)
dvoye dvaya divai /// two (Pl. dwoje)
derevo dārava dervà /// tree (Pl. drzewo)

Except two, "good and cheerful" there are cognates in Polish too.

Could you contribute to this thread too?
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30052-Iranic-words-in-European-languages

 

[Robert6]

My list was about similarities to Indo-Iranic(an) rather than just to Iranic(an).

Sarmatian language wasn't just "Indo-Iranic"
it was "northeast"-Iranian

Sarmatian word Zirin=Gold
it is Iranic
Zærin=Gold is Ossetian
also compare Sarmatæ Sauromatæ Iazamatæ Iaxamatæ Saudaratæ(=Melanchlaeni) etc
to Ossetic ethnonims Irattæ Digoratæ Tualtæ Chsantæ Walagomtæ etc

 

[arvistro]

I think proto-Germanic researchers can no problem accept 8 loanwords from Iranian, but in proto-Slavic it is somewhat political thing
Of 8 German Iranian loans even in Latvian I non-linguist recognize 1 - kaņepe (hanapiz) "hemp".
About Slava/Slovo it seems to be borrowing in Baltic. Minēt, miņa should be the old word, Mindaugas in Slavic would be Boleslav (many famous) and Gedimin is some other Slav, that I could not decypher (Gedi?).
It remains in some grammar form in Slavic too pominki (to remember dead ones), pomnitj (to remember).

Edit:
Found! Gediminas most likely comes from Geidiminas which is Jaroslav in Slavic (according to arvistro).

 

[Taranis]

How much do we even know about Sarmatian language and culture ???

There are Iranic linguistic influences (loans and infiltrations) and Iranic-Slavic Indo-European cognates (words of common origin from times when ancestors of Slavs and Iranics were one group - before they differentiated) in Slavic languages. But is it even possible to establish which of these Iranic influences are specifically Sarmatian? When it comes to the difference between loanwords and infiltrations:

Viktor V. Martynov defined the difference between a loan and an infiltration as follows (in short):

Inflitration is when there already exists a native term for a thing in a language, but a foreign term which is its exact synonym infiltrates. After that a "struggle" for domination between two exact synonyms starts, as the result of which one disappears or changes its meaning. Loans - unlike infiltrations - are when there is no native term for a given thing, and a foreign term is adopted to fill "empty space".

A loanword was for example Slavic word for "cross", as Slavs did not have any crosses before Christianization.

According to Ł. Godecki, loans do not require direct contact with speakers of a language from which a term originated. Loans can be passed indirectly from one linguistic groups to another, and so on, and so on. As the result of cultural exchange, spread of technology.

On the other hand, infiltration of terms from one group to another usually implies that the two groups were direct neighbours.

Infiltration may also indicate existence of a transitional bilingual region, where lived people who spoke both languages.

For example an infiltration (not a loan) was the replacement of Old English "leode" by Old French "peupel", which is now "people":

The problem I have with that concept, which is quite intriguing, I must admit is the following: how do you actually distinguish "loans" and "infiltrations"?

As for the Scytho-Sarmatian languages, their historic presence in the Antiquity in both the southern portion of what today is Ukraine is well known (Alans, Roxolani, etc.), as is their presence in the Pannonian basin (Iazyges). Its therefore likely that they had contact with the early Slavic speakers.

Unsure is *marhaz 'horse', which was either borrowed directly from Scytho-Sarmatian or through Celtic mediation.

I will actually dispute that this word has anything to do with Scytho-Sarmatian, as there's no parallel in the Iranic languages (in particular, Ossetian, which is the sole living Scytho-Sarmatian languages). Instead, I propose that Celtic *marko- and Germanic *marhaz (as well as possibly Albanian "gomar" - meaning 'donkey', but that one may be via Germanic mediation) are shared inheritances.

 

[Tomenable]

Sorry for absence, Christmas holidays, New Year, etc.

Meanwhile, I have found a very interesting map showing the subclades of R1b among total R1b:

Red colour = L23 subclade and its downclades (the map is taken from links posted below):

http://leherensuge.blogspot.com.es/2010/08/r1b1b2a1-is-almost-unique-of-west.html

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2013/03/y-dna-survey-of-bulgaria.html

BTW - check also the publication by Dr Peter Gwozdz, "Copernicus Y-DNA is Haplogroup R1b1b2a1".

He had haplogroup R1b1b2a (L23) - more precisely, L23's downclade R1b1b2a1 (L51).

There is about 80% confidence that it belongs to R1b1b2a1

Assuming that the discovered skeleton from which Y-DNA was extracted indeed belongs to Copernicus.

 

[Tomenable]

And here is a map for this L51 downclade frequency:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27564-Where-did-R1b-L51-originate