Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

[Alan]

b) It's highly unlikely that it existed among the Medes since the Iranic people came to West Asia from South-Central Asia where haplogroup I* and its subclades are seriously lacking, and if it did exist among the Medes in West Asia, it surely did not exist among their Iranic ancestors in their ancestral lands.

from BMAC and Andronovo where todays Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan is located.

 

[Cobol19]

Whats your qualifications to question Eupedia. You seem like ?-

What's my qualifications? What are Eupedia's qualifications? Listen, I don't take any percentages or maps seriously unless they have sources, and until Maciamo provides where he got his sources from, the numbers and maps on this website are irrelevant.

Thats not South Central Asia it is Central Asia and Mongols and Turks replaced most of old populations , when I said Iranians comed from North you argued with me saying they comed from Pacistan

It is South-Central Asia, Central Asia is pretty much north of this area (Kazakhstan, Southern Russia, etc), and parts of Pakistan belongs to this region (North Pakistan and anything west of the Indus).

Nobody said Diodoros and Pliny has anything to do with I2a1b - you criticized my timeline and it is based on they works - Diodorus say Sarmathians are Medes . Pliny says Serbs and Croats are Sarmathians .

I think they were more connected with the Scythians than with the Medes (Their language is the evidence for it), and the lineage that was likely passed down was R1a1a (Based on Scythian ancient DNA), not I2a1b.

 

[Cobol19]

from BMAC and Andronovo where todays Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan is located.

Yes, the BMAC specially since that's who the Andronovo folks mixed with, after that we start seeing some of the earliest Indo-Iranian traditions come to life.

 

[Alan]

I think there are four possibilities on how I came to Kurdistan

1. A Gene flow from Balkans
2. A Gen Drift (selection)
3. It is native to this region together with the J lineage (IJ)
4. It indeed belonged to the Aryan tribes of Median confederation. Like I already proved Alan (Sarmathian) tribes exist among Kurds those might be the "Medes" some sources are talking about whom where settled in the steppes.

 

[Cobol19]

No, no, no, and no! A lot people claim that the Mitanni were the same as the Medes later and spoke a Proto-Iranic language.

Yea well a lot of people is not a source, the evidence indicate something different, Mitanni = Indo-Aryan, Medeian = Iranian, do they have the same origin? Ultimately yes, but different time-frames and different branches.

And before Mitanni there were Iranic GUTI in Kurdistan. And before Guti GOD knows who. My point is that Kurdistan has been always inhabited by the Iranic tribes!

Historical evidence indicate something different, and you did not show me evidence for the Guti being Iranians, where's your source?

Not Assyrians or Armenians, like you want me to believe! That Assyrians & Armenians are native to Kurdistan, but Kurds are just from Central Asia, bla bla bla bull

Your paranoia is once again getting in the way, but since you wanna go there, this is what I think, Assyrians, Kurds, and Armenians are mostly native to West Asia (Eastern Anatolia/Northwest Iran/Northern Mesopotamia specially), in fact, the story between the Assyrians and Kurds is rather very similar, both populations mostly inherit their genes from West Asian natives, the difference is the Kurds have some Iranian genes from South-Central Asia while the Assyrians have some Semitic genes from the Levant, and their languages indicate that too, but for most part, both populations are West Asian natives.

 

[Cobol19]

I think there are four possibilities on how I came to Kurdistan

1. A Gene flow from Balkans
2. A Gen Drift (selection)
3. It is native to this region together with the J lineage (IJ)
4. It indeed belonged to the Aryan tribes of Median confederation. Like I already proved Alan (Sarmathian) tribes exist among Kurds those might be the "Medes" some sources are talking about whom where settled in the steppes.

Based on the 4 points, point 2 does not fit there since it does not indicate the source, instead it either goes hand in hand (As in, a drfit happened), or not, as for the other 3 points, point 1 is strong, point 3 is interesting and may be something to think about, I would actually believe point 3 if older subclades of haplogroup I* are found, while point 4 is possible if you're not saying that it migrated from the east with the earlier Iranian tribes (BMAC region).

 

[Alan]

Based on the 4 points, point 2 does not fit there since it does not indicate the source, instead it either goes hand in hand (As in, a drfit happened), or not, as for the other 3 points, point 1 is strong, point 3 is interesting and may be something to think about, I would actually believe point 3 if older subclades of haplogroup I* are found, while point 4 is possible if you're not saying that it migrated from the east with the earlier Iranian tribes (BMAC region).

No I am not saying that with point 4 the Haplogroup I came from East. I think Point 3 and 4 go hand in hand. Means Aryan tribes cam from East, mixed with natives who belonged to I, J and a new Iranic branch was born. However just to make it clear Persian did not came together with Meds, Indeed Persians didn´t existed at that time. They were a part of the Aryan nomads(later called Medes). They split from this group and moved south and build a new group called Persians.

 

[Cobol19]

No I am not saying that with point 4 the Haplogroup I came from East. I think Point 3 and 4 go hand in hand. Means Aryan tribes cam from East, mixed with natives who belonged to I, J and a new Iranic branch was born. However just to make it clear Persian did not came together with Meds, Indeed Persians didn´t existed at that time. They were a part of the Aryan nomads(later called Medes). They split from this group and moved south and build a new group called Persians.

Point 3 is indeed possible, but like I said, further studies have to show older subclades of I* in the region before actually accepting this theory.

I think point 1 seems like the strongest point going hand in hand with point 2 (And perhaps even with point 4), basically it's possible that haplogroup I* migrated from Europe to West Asia before the rise of any major civilization, and from there a few specific lineages got lucky and here we are today, their descendants are most fruitful among the Kurds, we see similar weird spikes of different lineages among other groups too.

But overall the best candidates for native lineages that I can think of are J2a and some of its subclades, J1* and some of its subclades, older lineages of R1b1b2 and R1b1b2a, along with some G2a lineages.

The main problem with some of these guesses is we're trying to determine this based on modern populations, assuming not much has happened in the history of the region, this would be ok, but this region has been a melting pot of different cultures, I hope the next step is investing in some ancient DNA studies.

 

[Goga]

in fact, the story between the Assyrians and Kurds is rather very similar, both populations mostly inherit their genes from West Asian natives, the difference is the Kurds have some Iranian genes from South-Central Asia while the Assyrians have some Semitic genes from the Levant, and their languages indicate that too, but for most part, both populations are West Asian natives.

Yeah right!

20% of Kurds who belong to I2 = 8 million Kurds nowadays are from SouthCentral Asia? Since when is I2 SouthCentral Asian? And I'm not even talking about J2, G2 etc.
This my friend doesn't make any sense!

Kurds are just native to their homeland and not from anywhere.

 

[Cobol19]

Yeah right!

20% of Kurds who belong to I2 = 8 million Kurds nowadays are from SouthCentral Asia? Since when is I2 SouthWest Asian? And I'm not talking about J2, G2 etc.
This my friend doesn't make any sense!

Kurds are just native to their homeland and not from anywhere.

I2 is Southeast European, not South-Central Asian, anyways, where did you get 20% I2 from? For the sake of argument, let's assume all the I* found among Kurds is I2* and its subclades, based on the studies I'm aware of, the total comes out to about 14% I*, what are the studies you ask? Here you go:

MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups
Zaza Kurds - 33.3% (9/27)
Turkey Kurds - 16.1% (14/87)
Yezidie Kurds - 0% (0/25)
Turkmenistan Kurds - 0% (0/17)

Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan (Frequency)
Turkey Kurds - 12.7% (32/251)

The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East
Iraqi Kurds - 16.8% (16/95)

Total Kurds studied = 502
Total I* = 71
Final Percentage = 14.1%

Unless you have other studies, the frequency is not 20%, and if you're looking at this page:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

It's clearly wrong unless Maciamo provides his sources.

 

[Alan]

I2 is Southeast European, not South-Central Asian, anyways, where did you get 20% I2 from? For the sake of argument, let's assume all the I* found among Kurds is I2* and its subclades, based on the studies I'm aware of, the total comes out to about 14% I*, what are the studies you ask? Here you go:

MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups
Zaza Kurds - 33.3% (9/27)
Turkey Kurds - 16.1% (14/87)
Yezidie Kurds - 0% (0/25)
Turkmenistan Kurds - 0% (0/17)

Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan (Frequency)
Turkey Kurds - 12.7% (32/251)

The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East
Iraqi Kurds - 16.8% (16/95)

Total Kurds studied = 502
Total I* = 71
Final Percentage = 14.1%

Unless you have other studies, the frequency is not 20%, and if you're looking at this page:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

It's clearly wrong unless Maciamo provides his sources.

Just to be fair in this point Goga is right and we already had a discussion about it. There was also a study who simply put all the samples together and estimated the percentage of Haplogroups among Kurds. You know better as me that this is nonsense. Look all of us know that Kurds of Turkmenistan and Georgia are groups with bottle neck effect and cant be given the same importance as the other Kurdish Groups. First Georgian Kurds are in number not more than 30 thousand. The Kurds from Turkmenistan are from diaspora originally belonging to three Kurdish tribes thats why you find unusual high R1b among them (28%) Also the number of Zaza Kurds lies probably at 2 Mio and not more. There overall number is around 0,5-1 Mio. The Kurds of Anatolia are in number probably around 20 Mio and Kurds from Iraq 5 Mio. So it is very unprofessional to give all groups equal value. If we take the known studies about Kurds in account than we come to a number between 17-20% However it might be possible that if more samples are taken it comes around 14-15%.

 

[Goga]

I2 is Southeast European, not South-Central Asian, anyways, where did you get 20% I2 from? For the sake of argument, let's assume all the I* found among Kurds is I2* and its subclades, based on the studies I'm aware of, the total comes out to about 14% I*, what are the studies you ask? Here you go:

MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups
Zaza Kurds - 33.3% (9/27)
Turkey Kurds - 16.1% (14/87)
Yezidie Kurds - 0% (0/25)
Turkmenistan Kurds - 0% (0/17)

Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan (Frequency)
Turkey Kurds - 12.7% (32/251)

The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East
Iraqi Kurds - 16.8% (16/95)

Total Kurds studied = 502
Total I* = 71
Final Percentage = 14.1%

Unless you have other studies, the frequency is not 20%, and if you're looking at this page:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

It's clearly wrong unless Maciamo provides his sources.

Are you just a hater ro what? This is the last time I do respond to you.

There's more than 20% of I in NORTH Kurdistan. North Kurdistan is the place where the most Kurds live.
there's 17% if I in South Kurdistan. In south Kurdistan only live 6.000.000 (six million) Kurds.
There're also more than 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds in East Kurdistan (occupied by the Iranians)
There'are also 2.000.000 (two million) Kurds in Syrian occupies Kurdistan. But we don't have any data of them.


There're only 20.000 (twenty thousand) YEZIDI Kurds who live in Georgia, isolated from other populations and at the same time there are 20.000.000 (twenty million) Turkish Kurds.
If you count these isolated Yezidi Kurds as equal to Northern Kurds, you're just manipulating the numbers!

I've got my data from Nasidze et al. (2005), like Maciamo does! Maciamo is 100% right!!!

My question to you, If Kurds are for 20% I2 folks, are they the same as Armenians or Assyrians? And are they from SouthCentral Asia?

The fact is, the original Kurds were never like Assyrians, Armenians. But Kurds as Iranic peoples are mixed with tribes from Caucasus, like Georgians! Or share the same roots as Georgians.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...200005)112:1<5::AID-AJPA2>3.0.CO;2-Z/abstract


Like it or not, Kurds are not from Central Asia and original Kurds (of IRANIC origin) were NOT related to Armenians or Assyrians.

 

[Alan]

Are you just a hater ro what? This is the last time I do respond to you.

There's more than 20% of I in NORTH Kurdistan. North Kurdistan is the place where the most Kurds live.

calm down.

 

[Cobol19]

Just to be fair in this point Goga is right and we already had a discussion about it. There was also a study who simply put all the samples together and estimated the percentage of Haplogroups among Kurds. You know better as me that this is nonsense. Look all of us know that Kurds of Turkmenistan and Georgia are groups with bottle neck effect and cant be given the same importance as the other Kurdish Groups. First Georgian Kurds are in number not more than 30 thousand. The Kurds from Turkmenistan are from diaspora originally belonging to three Kurdish tribes thats why you find unusual high R1b among them (28%). There overall number is around 0,5-1 Mio. The Kurds of Anatolia are in number probably around 20 Mio and Kurds from Iraq 5 Mio. So it is very unprofessional to give all groups the same value.

Even with what you say, 20% is wrong, let's go ahead and only include Kurds from Turkey and Iraq, though if you're gonna exclude Kurds from Georgia and Turkmenistan, you might as well exclude the Zazaki ones too since they only mix with themselves for most part (Clear genetic drift with haplogroup I*), but for the sake of argument, I will keep them in there to prove my point:

Zaza Kurds - 33.3% (9/27)
Turkey Kurds - 16.1% (14/87)
Turkey Kurds - 12.7% (32/251)
Iraqi Kurds - 16.8% (16/95)

Total Sample = 460
Total I* = 71
Final Percentage = 15.4%

Clearly not 20% as indicated, ohh and one more thing on this page:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Maciamo has reported 20% among Kurds in Turkey, by excluding the Iraqi Kurds from the above, the total percentage for the Kurds of Turkey should be 15%, not 20%, I'm not sure where he comes up with some of these numbers but I really like to hear what he has to say.

 

[Cobol19]

Are you just a hater ro what? This is the last time I do respond to you.

There's more than 20% of I in NORTH Kurdistan. North Kurdistan is the place where the most Kurds live.
there's 17% if I in South Kurdistan. In south Kurdistan only live 6.000.000 (six million) Kurds.
There're also more than 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds in East Kurdistan (occupied by the Iranians)
There'are also 2.000.000 (two million) Kurds in Syrian occupies Kurdistan. But we don't have any data of them.


There're only 20.000 (twenty thousand) YEZIDI Kurds who live in Georgia, isolated from other populations and at the same time there are 20.000.000 (twenty million) Turkish Kurds.
If you count these isolated Yezidi Kurds as equal to Northern Kurds, you're just manipulating the numbers!

I've got my data from Nasidze et al. (2005), like Maciamo does! Maciamo is 100% right!!!

My question to you, If Kurds are for 20% I2 folks, are they the same as Armenians or Assyrians? And are they from SouthCentral Asia?

The fact is, the original Kurds were never like Assyrians, Armenians. But Kurds as Iranic peoples are mixed with tribes from Caucasus, like Georgians! Or share the same roots as Georgians.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/(SICI)1096-8644(200005)112:1%3C5::AID-AJPA2%3E3.0.CO;2-Z/abstract


Like it or not, Kurds are not from Central Asia and original Kurds (of IRANIC origin) were NOT related to Armenians or Assyrians.

Wrong again, the total for Turkey Kurds comes up to 15%, unless Maciamo comes out with his sources, I'm right and he's wrong, but if you wanna follow what you like rather than facts, be my guest :bored:

 

[Goga]

No, no, no and no!

Turkey Kurds = 20 % of I2 = 20% from 20.000.000 = 4.000.000 (four million)
Iraqi Kurds = 17 % of I2 = 17 % from 6.000.000 = 1.190.000 (1,19 million)
Iranian Kurdistan I believe at least the same as Iraqi Kurdistan, maybe even more because Iranian Kurds are less mixed than Iraqi Kurds. I think that the Iranian Kurds are the less mixed Muslim Kurds.
Iranian Kurds = at least 17 % of I2 = 17% from 8.000.000 (eight million) = 1.360.000 (1,36 million)
There'are also Syrian Kurds. But we don't have data about them.

Like I said at least 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds are I2.


More than the total population of Assyrians, Armenians and even Georgians COMBINED!

 

[Alan]

Even with what you say, 20% is wrong, let's go ahead and only include Kurds from Turkey and Iraq, though if you're gonna exclude Kurds from Georgia and Turkmenistan, you might as well exclude the Zazaki ones too since they only mix with themselves for most part (Clear genetic drift with haplogroup I*), but for the sake of argument, I will keep them in there to prove my point:

Zaza Kurds - 33.3% (9/27)
Turkey Kurds - 16.1% (14/87)
Turkey Kurds - 12.7% (32/251)
Iraqi Kurds - 16.8% (16/95)

Total Sample = 460
Total I* = 71
Final Percentage = 15.4%

Clearly not 20% as indicated, ohh and one more thing on this page:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Maciamo has reported 20% among Kurds in Turkey, by excluding the Iraqi Kurds from the above, the total percentage for the Kurds of Turkey should be 15%, not 20%, I'm not sure where he comes up with some of these numbers but I really like to hear what he has to say.

Actually you are wrong with the Zaza Kurds. In fact you are very wrong. There is no Region which is purely Zazaki Speaking. Most of the Zazaki Speaking clans are in fact bilingual a "Zaza" awareness doesent exists. Means a part of the Clan speaks Zazaki a part Kurmanji. Dersim for example is 70% Zazaki and 30% Kurmanji. Bingöl is 60% Zazaki and 40% Kurmanji. And this is how it goes in all predominantly Zazaki Speaking regions. There is indeed more a religious isolation than linguistic. Means Zazaki Alevis marry with Kurmanji Alevis while Sunni Zaza with Kurmanji Zaza.
The I distribution is more regional than dialectical.

Turkey Kurds - 12.7%

could you tell me from which study you got this percentage?

 

[Goga]

Actually you are wrong with the Zaza Kurds. In fact you are very wrong. There is no Region which is purely Zazaki Speaking. Most of the Zazaki Speaking clans are in fact bilingual a "Zaza" awareness doesent exists. Means a part of the Clan speaks Zazaki a part Kurmanji. Dersim for example is 70% Zazaki and 30% Kurmanji. Bingöl is 60% Zazaki and 40% Kurmanji. And this is how it goes in all predominantly Zazaki Speaking regions. There is indeed more a religious isolation than linguistic. Means Zazaki Alevis marry with Kurmanji Alevis while Sunni Zaza with Kurmanji Zaza.
The I distribution is more regional than dialectical.



could you tell me from which study you got this percentage?

I hope this will open his eyes.

Turkey Kurds = 20 % of I2 = 20% from 20.000.000 = 4.000.000 (four million)
Iraqi Kurds = 17 % of I2 = 17 % from 7.000.000 = 1.190.000 (1,19 million)
Iranian Kurdistan I believe at least the same as Iraqi Kurdistan, maybe even more because Iranian Kurds are less mixed than Iraqi Kurds. I think that the Iranian Kurds are the less mixed Muslim Kurds.
Iranian Kurds = at least 17 % of I2 = 17% from 8.000.000 (eight million) = 1.360.000 (1,36 million)
There'are also Syrian Kurds. 2.000.000 - 3.000.000 (three million) of them. But we don't have data about them.

Like I said at least 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds are I2.


More than the total population of Assyrians, Armenians and even Georgians COMBINED!

 

[Cobol19]

No, no, no and no!

Turkey Kurds = 20 % of I2 = 20% from 20.000.000 = 4.000.000 (four million)
Iraqi Kurds = 17 % of I2 = 17 % from 6.000.000 = 1.020.000 (1,02 million)
Iranian Kurdistan I believe at least the same as Iraqi Kurdistan, maybe even more because Iranian Kurds are less mixed than Iraqi Kurds. I think that the Iranian Kurds are the less mixed Muslim Kurds.
Iranian Kurds = at least 17 % of I2 = 17% from 8.000.000 (eight million) = 1.360.000 (1,36 million)
There'are also Syrian Kurds. But we don't have data about them.

Like I said at least 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds are I2.


Much more than the total population of Assyrians, Armenians and even Georgians COMBINED!

Do you friggin know how to read? I'll do it again for you just in case you missed it, based on the 3 following studies:

MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups

Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan (Frequency)

The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East

There are 55 out 365 Kurds in Turkey that tested with haplogroup I*, Maciamo reports 20% among Kurds in Turkey, but 55 out of 365 is not 20%, it's 15%, get it now? I'm only wrong if there are other sources I don't know about, but Maciamo has not responded and I'm pretty sure you're clueless in all of this, don't bother responding if you're gonna be a paranoid mess, either stick with the subject and provide evidence to prove me wrong, or don't bother with your useless talk.

 

[Cobol19]

Actually you are wrong with the Zaza Kurds. In fact you are very wrong. There is no Region which is purely Zazaki Speaking. Most of the Zazaki Speaking clans are in fact bilingual a "Zaza" awareness doesent exists. Means a part of the Clan speaks Zazaki a part Kurmanji. Dersim for example is 70% Zazaki and 30% Kurmanji. Bingöl is 60% Zazaki and 40% Kurmanji. And this is how it goes in all predominantly Zazaki Speaking regions. There is indeed more a religious isolation than linguistic. Means Zazaki Alevis marry with Kurmanji Alevis while Sunni Zaza with Kurmanji Zaza.
The I distribution is more regional than dialectical.

Even if I'm wrong about the Zazaki and what their traditions and customs are, this still does not prove me wrong about the amount of I* carried by Kurds in Turkey and what should be reported, in any case, I'm gonna assume that Maciamo only took one study into account, because it does not make any sense.

could you tell me from which study you got this percentage?

Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan (Frequency)