Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

[Alan]

Are you even aware that this study
http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v50/n9/abs/jhg200565a.html

is about Kurds from Jordan like you see on the name and there was already a big discussion about it. I dont understand how some thousand diaspora Kurds can be taken as representative for Kurds from Anatolia or Iraq.

This study is well known by Maciamo and us but this study has nothing really zero to do with Kurds from Iraq or Anatolia. And the number of those Kurds is by far not more than that of Yezidi Kurds from Georgia.

 

[Goga]

Do you friggin know how to read? I'll do it again for you just in case you missed it, based on the 3 following studies:

MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups

Isolates in a corridor of migrations: a high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variation in Jordan (Frequency)

The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East

There are 55 out 365 Kurds in Turkey that tested with haplogroup I*, Maciamo reports 20% among Kurds in Turkey, but 55 out of 365 is not 20%, it's 15%, get it now? I'm only wrong if there are other sources I don't know about, but Maciamo has not responded and I'm pretty sure you're clueless in all of this, don't bother responding if you're gonna be a paranoid mess, either stick with the subject and provide evidence to prove me wrong, or don't bother with your useless talk.

NONSENSE. But hey let say you are right, that will only will reduce 1 million. 15 % from 20.000.000 = 3.000.000 (three million). while 20 % from 20.000.000 = 4.000.000 (four million)
So instead of 8.000.000 (eight million) of all Kurds who belong to I2 it is now 7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds who belong to I2.

Big f&%^#* deal!

7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds who belong to I2 are still MUCH more (2x more) than the total population of Armenians and Assyrians TOGETHER!

Do you really believe that these 7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds are from Central Asia? Do YOU really believe that Assyrians and Armenians are and were I2 folks?

You're a tr0ll!

 

[Cobol19]

Are you even aware that this study
http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v50/n9/abs/jhg200565a.html

is about Kurds from Jordan like you see on the name and there was already a big discussion about it. I dont understand how some thousand diaspora Kurds can be taken as representative for Kurds from Anatolia or Iraq.

The Kurds are not from Jordan, they're from Anatolia (Turkey), the study was about the population of Jordan and how they match with other populations.

 

[Cobol19]

NONSENSE. But hey let say you are right, that will only will reduce 1 million, so instead of 8.000.000 (eight million) Kurds who belong to I2 it is now 7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds who belong to I2.

Big f&%^#* deal!

7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds who belong to I2 are still MUCH more (2x more) than the total population of Armenians and Assyrians TOGETHER!

Do you really believe that these 7.000.000 (seven million) Kurds are from Central Asia? Do YOU really believe that Assyrians and Armenians are I2 folks?

You are so lost it's not even funny, I say one thing, you make up crap out of nowhere, I won't discuss this subject with you further because it's rather embarrassing.

 

[Alan]

The Kurds are not from Jordan, they're from Anatolia (Turkey), the study was about the population of Jordan and how they match with other populations.

Ok you might be right. But I think Maciamo already took them in account thats why he changed it from 25% to 20%

 

[Cobol19]

Ok you might be right. But I think Maciamo already took them in account thats why he changed it from 25% to 20%

I don't think he took them into account because adding these Kurds with the other ones from the Nasidze study brings the number from 20% to 15%.

 

[Alan]

I think what the difference between your and Maciamos system is, is that ypu took all samples together while maciamo used all studies separate.

 

[Goga]

You are so lost it's not even funny, I say one thing, you make up crap out of nowhere, I won't discuss this subject with you further because it's rather embarrassing.

Congratulations, good for you!

Keep in mind that Kurds never ever will doubt that they're IRANIC and they're native to their homeland, KURDISTAN!

And at the end of the day there'are still at least 2 times (2x) more I2 Kurds than the total population of Assyrians and Armenians TOGETHER, and some crazy people still believe that Kurds are occupiers from Central Asia!
Sure we're all mixed with each other. But Kurds have different (IRANIC) origin, Armenians have different (URARTU) origin and Assyrians have different (SEMITIC) origin!

 

[Alan]

Ok now I know where yolu got this percentages from. They are from Flores. et al. Study. Flores. Et al. Simply used Nebel, Nasidze Study and used Georgians Kurds as well Turkmenistan Kurds equal.

 

[Alan]

And Flores et al. indeed used Kurdish samples from Jordan too. In fact many are from Jordan.
http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/study_flores2005.htm

This study what you named "Turkey Kurds" was basically Kurd and based on Iraqi, Georgian, Turkmenistan, Jordanian and Anatolian Kurds. I don´t understand why you called this samples specifically Turkey Kurds.

 

[Alan]

Congratulations, good for you!

Keep in mind that Kurds never ever will doubt that they're IRANIC and they're native to their homeland, KURDISTAN!

And at the end of the day there'are still at least 2 times (2x) more I2 Kurds than the total population of Assyrians and Armenians TOGETHER, and some crazy people still believe that Kurds are occupiers from Central Asia!
Sure we're all mixed with each other. But Kurds have different (IRANIC) origin, Armenians have different (URARTU) origin and Assyrians have different (SEMITIC) origin!

Now just for the record. Tell me the reason why you are acting like this. What is the problem?

 

[Goga]

Now just for the record. Tell me the reason why you are acting like this. What is the problem?

Because from the day 1 I knew he came here for trouble! And a lot folks here are waiting for my 'ban'.

 

[Cobol19]

I think what the difference between your and Maciamos system is, is that ypu took all samples together while maciamo used all studies separate.

There are only 3 studies as far as I'm aware, thought you're right about the last one being from the two papers combined, so I'll admit that I was not aware of that myself and made an error, thanks for pointing it out and apologies on my part.

There's still a problem with Maciamo's numbers, assuming that he only took the Nasidze paper for the Kurds in Turkey, based on this, we're only assuming that he took the Zazaki and the Muslim Kurds, right? Here's the original data with both groups combined:

Sample Size = 114
E* - 11.4% (13)
C* - 1.8% (2)
K* - 9.6% (11)
R2a - 5.3% (7)
P* - 5.3% (6)
R1* - 6.1% (7)
R1a1 - 15.8% (18)
F* - 10.5% (12)
G* - 2.6% (3)
J2 - 10.5% (12)
I* - 20.2% (23)

Here's what Maciamo reported:

I - 20% (Check)
R1a - 16% (Check)
R1b - 6% (I'm guessing this is based on R1*)
G - 2.5% (Check)
J2 - 10.5% (Check)
J1 - 9.5% (Based on what?)
E - 11.5%
T - 5% (Based on what?)
L - 4.5% (Based on what?)
Q - 5% (I'm guessing this is based on P*?)
N - 0% (No comment)
Others - 9% (This seems mostly R2a)

The bold ones are questionable because it looks like this is what he did:

F* : 10.5% --> J1 : 9.5%
While J1 is indeed under F, among some of the other non reported lineages that also exist is haplogroup H for example, why do we assume 9.5% is J1? What is this assumption based on?

K* : 9.6% --> T : 5%
K* : 9.6% --> L : 4.5%
How did he figure out that these are the numbers for L and T? Yes, both lineages do fall under K*, but why assume with the numbers when we don't know?

R2a : 8% --> Other : 9%
Why add the extra percentage? Assumption again? seems like he broke down F between this and J1, why? What's the reason behind that?

 

[sparkey]

In your quest for truth, you shorely evade the truth .
1) when by your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b camed to Balkans?
2) When by Your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b moved from Balkans to Kurdistan ?
Turkic I2a1b is simple bringed by Serbs Turks settled in Anatolia during Ottoman empire rule in Balkans XIV - XIX century ( that is why it is concentrated in NorthWest), and from Kurds that mixed with Turks - if it would be in Anatolia from beforeXIV century, it % would be lot biger -

You guys post too fast for me to keep up... but I will say that these questions of Bodin's are critical to understanding I2a-Din, and that they're pretty much unanswerable by genetics alone at the moment. That is:

1) Must have been 2000 years ago +/- 1000 years given the STR diversity. But who brought it is another question. We know that its diversity is higher to the North, and we are fairly sure that there is no ancient Western European I2a-Din. But we don't know if its diversity is even higher in the East.
2) Who knows? We have zero data on STR diversity of I2a-Din in Kurdistan. And yet the Sarmatian theory relies a lot on having STR diversity data of I2a-Din in the East. Unfortunately Bodin's frequency-based conjecture could be way off due to genetic drift even if he has all his numbers right. We need multiple 37+ marker samples of Eastern I2a-Din. We don't have this.

Cobol19 is right that we should doubt the extent of our knowledge about I2a-Din in the East. The better default assumption, based on all that we know about Haplogroup I in general (that the center of diversity of every clade within it is in Europe) is that it is a relatively recent migrant from Europe.

BTW Goga check out the attachment to this post by Humanist which shows an interesting tightness in grouping of Assyrians, Armenians, and Iranians (no Kurds tested unfortunately).

 

[Goga]

BTW Goga check out the attachment to this post by Humanist which shows an interesting tightness in grouping of Assyrians, Armenians, and Iranians (no Kurds tested unfortunately).

I know. I read that. These folks are very clever.
According to them Assyrians are 'Semitised' Hurrians, Armenians are just Hurrians (Urartu) who speak an IE language, while Kurds are 'Aryanised' / 'Iranised' Hurrians by Iranic folks from Central Asia.
Or maybe they suggest that Assyrians are actual IE too, who speak Aramean (a Semitic language)? I don't know. They have very much R1b though...

I don't agree that Kurds are 'Iranised' Hurrians at all by Iranic people form SouthCentral Asia. According to me Kurds are still native Iranic folks who are a little bit mixed with Hurrians. I believe that Hurrians and Proto-Indo-European Iranic folks share the same ancestors. According to the Persians, Kurds are still 'more' Iranic than Persians. I mean even chauvinist Persians acknowledge that!

And I don't want to give my opinion on Assyrians & Armenians, they know very well who they are...

 

[Ivan]

G 21-74% but that is the case in whole Caucasus ( race of goatbriders , populate all high mountins ) others are quite simillar to surounding nations - probably has something to do with custom to rape whole conquered village

Are you trying to say that one haplogroup raped women of all other y hap. from caucasus. Is this your explanation why there are so much of them there.

 

[Alan]

Sample Size = 114
E* - 11.4% (13)
C* - 1.8% (2)
K* - 9.6% (11)
R2a - 5.3% (7)
P* - 5.3% (6)
R1* - 6.1% (7)
R1a1 - 15.8% (18)
F* - 10.5% (12)
G* - 2.6% (3)
J2 - 10.5% (12)
I* - 20.2% (23)

Here's what Maciamo reported:

I - 20% (Check)
R1a - 16% (Check)
R1b - 6% (I'm guessing this is based on R1*)
G - 2.5% (Check)
J2 - 10.5% (Check)
J1 - 9.5% (Based on what?)
E - 11.5%
T - 5% (Based on what?)
L - 4.5% (Based on what?)
Q - 5% (I'm guessing this is based on P*?)
N - 0% (No comment)
Others - 9% (This seems mostly R2a)

The bold ones are questionable because it looks like this is what he did:

F* : 10.5% --> J1 : 9.5%
While J1 is indeed under F, among some of the other non reported lineages that also exist is haplogroup H for example, why do we assume 9.5% is J1? What is this assumption based on?

K* : 9.6% --> T : 5%
K* : 9.6% --> L : 4.5%
How did he figure out that these are the numbers for L and T? Yes, both lineages do fall under K*, but why assume with the numbers when we don't know?

R2a : 8% --> Other : 9%
Why add the extra percentage? Assumption again? seems like he broke down F between this and J1, why? What's the reason behind that?

actually if we take Zazaki and Kurmanji_T together we get 23/114 this is ~20% I Maciamo is right in that point.

The reason why Maciamo only took 9,5% of the F as J1 is because according to one study around 1% is maybe H. Another 5% of Other are R2a so we got 6%. The rest 3% might be some G1 or other Haplogroups.

 

[Alan]

I know. I read that. These folks are very clever.
According to them Assyrians are 'Semitised' Hurrians, Armenians are just Hurrians (Urartu) who speak an IE language, while Kurds are 'Aryanised' / 'Iranised' Hurrians by Iranic folks from Central Asia.
Or maybe they suggest that Assyrians are actual IE too, who speak Aramean (a Semitic language)? I don't know. They have very much R1b though...

I don't agree that Kurds are 'Iranised' Hurrians at all by Iranic people form SouthCentral Asia. According to me Kurds are still native Iranic folks who are a little bit mixed with Hurrians. I believe that Hurrians and Proto-Indo-European Iranic folks share the same ancestors. According to the Persians, Kurds are still 'more' Iranic than Persians. I mean even chauvinist Persians acknowledge that!

And I don't want to give my opinion on Assyrians & Armenians, they know very well who they are...

If the proto Iranians were 50/50 North European/West Asian than be sure that Kurds are at least 50% non Iranic.

 

[Cobol19]

The reason why Maciamo only took 9,5% of the F as J1 is because according to one study around 1% is maybe H. Another 5% of Other are R2a so we got 6%. The rest 3% might be some G1 or other Haplogroups.

But this is based on a maybe, not legit, when reporting frequencies one needs to be 100% on the spot, Maciamo took:

F* - 10.5%
K* - 9.6%

And turned it to:

J1 - 9.5%
L - 4.5%
T - 5%
Other - 1% (The other 8% is R2a)

The assumption makes this a flaw imo, if the data is not there, you should not guess randomly.

 

[Goga]

If the proto Iranians were 50/50 North European/West Asian than be sure that Kurds are at least 50% non Iranic.

No, I think Proto-Iranians were West Asian! According to me they were J2, J1, G2 & R1b (like modern Georgians) mixed with R1a, R2a & J2 from the Iranian Plateau - Central Asia and later mixed with R1a, I & J2 folks from North Caucasus.

Don't underestimate J2 in the formation of proto-Indo-Europeans and proto-Iranics!

Where in India did the Aryans arrive? Three answers to one question:

http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-a...gc.r_pw.&fp=14f6892a5a332bf1&biw=1298&bih=595


Y-haplogroups of carriers of the Aryan language:

http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-a...gc.r_pw.&fp=14f6892a5a332bf1&biw=1298&bih=595