Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[LeBrok]

finally, I feel fullfid, ok,

ukraine's president Porosenko anounced that ukraine is going to buy 40 billion Grivn about 2,2-2,3 Billion E guns in the next year,
that is what i was expecting,
the poor Ukrainians, who indeed majority especially in the west parts were poor under the lasts alliances,
who dreamed the EU dream,
and the East ones who wanted to stay at the old league with Russia,
noew they are about to enter more poverty, more depths etc etc,
Porosenko anounced 2,2 -3 billion E guns in 2015,
a division would cost less.

I think that is why even UN did not step foot, neither USA or EU,
Billions of E or $ will run in the guns industry,,
and we believe that the embargo with Russia will stop the war.
same time when EU is about to give money to many countries due to the responce embargo of Russia to EU,
especially Lithuania is about to lose the 60% of GDP, how come EU is going to return back?

it seems that some want an open war there, they did not want to close the case, neither go to elections and referendums,
are we going to see a new wall there? like Berlin and Cyprus?

the money is big,

So where do you reckon, they should buy weapons? They do need weapons, don't they?

 

[Theodorik]

Brief History of Crimea
It is known that Homo erectus once lived in Georgia. It is possible they got as far north as the Crimea.
Neanderthals lived in the Crimea.
In prehistoric times, Cro-Magnons and Magdalenians lived lived there.
The Sredny Stog Culture were named after a place in the Crimea. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sredny_Stog_culture
" In Sredny Stog culture, the deceased were laid to rest on their backs with the legs flexed. The use of ochre in the burial was practiced, as with the kurgan cultures. For this and other reasons, Yuri Rassamakin suggests that the Sredny Stog culture should be considered as an areal term, with at least four distinct cultural elements co-existing inside the same geographical area.The expert Dmytro Telegin has divided the chronology of Sredny Stog into two distinct phases. Phase II (ca. 4000–3500 BC) used corded ware pottery which may have originated there, and stone battle-axes of the type later associated with expanding Indo-European cultures to the West. Most notably, it has perhaps the earliest evidence of horse domestication (in phase II), with finds suggestive of cheek-pieces (psalia).In the context of the modified Kurgan hypothesis of Marija Gimbutas, this pre-kurgan archaeological culture could represent the Urheimat (homeland) of the Proto-Indo-European language. The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when Yamna culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog"
The Yamna Culture, a war-like tribe of pastoralists who spoke Indo-European and specialized in building wheeled vehicles like wagons, chariots, and kibitkas, lived there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture "The Yamna culture, "Pit [Grave] Culture", from Russian/Ukrainian "yamna "pit") is a late copper age/early Bronze Age culture of the Southern Bug/Dniester/Ural region (the Pontic steppe), dating to the 36th–23rd centuries BC. The name also appears in English as Pit Grave Culture or Ochre Grave Culture."
Then, it was invaded by the Scythians, a white people who spoke Iranian languages. In ancient times it was called Scythia.
Then, the Greeks colonized Crimea and built cities, such as Chersonesus, the modern Sevastopol.
"Taurica was eventually renamed by the Crimean Tatars, from whose language Crimea's modern name derives. The word "Crimea" comes from the Crimean Tatar name Qirim, via GreekKrimea Throughout the later centuries, Crimea was invaded or occupied successively by the Scythians, Sarmatians, Goths (AD 250), the Huns (376), theBulgars (4th–8th century), the Khazars (8th century), the state of Kievan Rus' (10th–11th centuries), the Byzantine Empire (1016), the Kipchaks(Kumans) (1050), and the Mongols (1237). In the 13th century, the Republic of Genoa seized the settlements that their rivals, the Venetians, had built along the Crimean coast and gained control of the Crimean economy and the Black Sea commerce for two centuries.^[ The Black Death pandemic came to Europe in the 14th century, probably aboard Genoese merchant ships from the Crimean peninsula.^[16]A number of Turkic peoples, now collectively known as the Crimean Tatars, came to inhabit the peninsula starting with the early Middle Ages." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Early_history
Under the Turks, Crimea became a center of white slavery. "Until the late 18th century, slavery in the Ottoman Empire thrived, with Crimean Tatars selling slaves to the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East.^[20]About 2 million slaves from Russia and Ukraine were sold over the period 1500–1700.^[21] In 1769 a last major Tatar raid, which took place during theRusso-Turkish War, saw the capture of 20,000 slaves.^[22]" Two million white slaves were exported through Crimea compared to 600,000 African slaves who were imported into what became the United States. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States
The Crimean War (1853-1856) was fought when Russia tried to seize this alien den of evil. The British and French fought with the Turks but were beaten. Even then Western Europe felt they had the right to aggressively intervene all over the world.
Under Communists, Crimea experienced two genocidal famines, in 1921 and in 1932. Eight million Ukrainians in eastern and southern Ukraine were starved to death and replaced by Russians. In addition, Stalin distrusted the Crimean Tatars, Volga Germans, Chechens,and Ingush, and committed genocide, killing the majority and sending most of the rest to Siberia.
The Goths were a Germanic tribe from Sweden who invaded Crimea around 250 AD. The last time they were sighted in the Crimea was around 1550. Their comely blond children were all sold as slaves by the Turks. In World War II Germany conquered the Crimea and renamed Sevastopol Gotenhafen. "Port of the Goths."
In 1954, Crimea was transferred from the Russian Soviet Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Republic. Both were part of the U.S.S.R.
In 1991, the Ukraine became independent. Ukraine was the third largest nuclear power in the world. They gave up all their nuclear weapons in return for an eternal guarantee of territorial integrity. The Ukraine invited the surviving Crimean Tatars to return, and today they are 14% of the population.
In 2014, many Ukrainians revolted against the corrupt, pro-Russian government. The American media didn't report it, but members of the opposition massacred nearly 100 people in Kiev and blamed it on the Government, which then fell.http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-bi...s-of-the-coup-detat-hired-the-snipers/5372048
[h=2]"The Big Lie of Ukraine’s Maidan “Revolution”: The Organizers of the Coup d’état Hired the Snipers[/h][h=3]And Lady Ashton Knows it."[/h]After the collapse of the U.S.S.R. and its empire in eastern Europe, Russia tried to make peace. The U.S. and western Europe responded with an extremely aggressive attempt to encircle Russia. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, and Romania were brought into NATO. American bases and missiles were moved closer to Russia. Now, American imperialists even want Ukraine to join NATO. This has caused Russia to react.
Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons and now has been invaded. Libya gave up its nuclear program and then was invaded by the United States. Iraq gave up its nuclear program and then was invaded by the United States. America is sending a clear message to all nations. If you want to be free, you must have nuclear weapons. Some day, this may cause World War Three.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/nordichistory4
http://forums.delphiforums.com/imperialism1
http://forums.delphiforums.com/truthseekers23

 

[Yetos]

So where do you reckon, they should buy weapons? They do need weapons, don't they?

to be honest my friend,
the money is Big for ukraine to leave Russian alliance,
theoritically Crimea pass through lot of hands, but until 1950-60 was Russia,
so the case for crimea it shelf, not the other teritories was obvious,
now about the other candon/teritorries,, ukraine's industry was also russian industry due to ex-USSR,
Ukraine indeed had some puppet presidents, who did not advance the region, that can be also due to cremlin,
the case of Yulia and the 'treaty' she sign with russians is good indicator what was going on there,
the real problem is that Russia as all BIG ONES wanted to be demanded, to be loved, so West Ukraine stayed undeveloped,
also the nationalistic history among Communists and Ukrainians which did not forgoten,
that created the dream of West Ukrainians that can join EU like the Balt ones,
probably some promises under the table by Western EU or USA etc etc lead people to revolt enough times as long as I live,
on controversary the East Ukrainians due to industrialization, russian army etc etc had a better income better conditions and were friendly toward Russian aliance, most of them might even feel Russians like HyperDneisterians in Moldova,
The Hyperdneisterians and the Moldova is a good case to read to understand the situations there,
so most of them where unwilling to follow West Ukraine in a towards EU road,
I believe Ukrainians are civilized and Europeans, and the diplomacy should start few days after revolt,
but some thermokephaloi (warmhead, boiling minds) pass to attack revenging what? the 1940's
Vandalisms and executions which should not be done and could be avoided took part SCARING THE PEOPLE
Do you know that Greek minority estimated about 150 000 was Threatened as non Ukrainians who should leave or executed, by some warmhead extra nationalist politicians?
situation is gone far,
the more we delay the more the victims the more the hate,
instead if we did not follow the eternal 'colonial policy' which demands one state with 2 or 3 components, like Iraq Kossovo Palestine, and solutions like Greek Turkey, India Pakistan, etc took place then all will be better, and these 2,2 billions could go produce progress,
NO THEY DO NOT NEAD THEM, ONLY THEY NEED, IS GOOD TRANSPARENT POLICY, DIPLOMACY AND REFERENDUMS.

 

[LeBrok]

After the collapse of the U.S.S.R. and its empire in eastern Europe, Russia tried to make peace. The U.S. and western Europe responded with an extremely aggressive attempt to encircle Russia. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, and Romania were brought into NATO. American bases and missiles were moved closer to Russia. Now, American imperialists even want Ukraine to join NATO. This has caused Russia to react.

It looks like it is highly convenient for you to omit most important fact. All the listed countries had asked to be in EU and NATO in first place. Isn't it true?
And when you learn history of the region you will know that they had enough of Russian occupation and dominance over them, so it is only natural to look for strong ally to secure their safety. If Russia was a good and friendly neighbour there wouldn't be a need to get defensive and look for friends somewhere else. Looking at what Putin does with Ukraine it become obvious that they were right fearing Russia.

Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons and now has been invaded.

yes, by Russians.

Libya gave up its nuclear program and then was invaded by the United States.

Libya was invaded? There was nothing more than air strikes, and if you recall it well the Italians and French bombed Gaddafi forces before Americans did.

If you want to be free, you must have nuclear weapons.

Well, that means that Canada and 95 percent of world's countries are going to be invaded by US soon. Beautiful logic!

Some day, this may cause World War Three.

Clearly nukes are a deterrent, but not completely. India and Pakistan still have fights at the border around Kashmir, regardless of having nukes for a decade or two. Palestinians are fighting Israel constantly, even though they could be hit by nukes at Israel's will.

 

[LeBrok]

to be honest my friend,
the money is Big for ukraine to leave Russian alliance,
theoritically Crimea pass through lot of hands, but until 1950-60 was Russia,
so the case for crimea it shelf, not the other teritories was obvious,
now about the other candon/teritorries,, ukraine's industry was also russian industry due to ex-USSR,
Ukraine indeed had some puppet presidents, who did not advance the region, that can be also due to cremlin,
the case of Yulia and the 'treaty' she sign with russians is good indicator what was going on there,
the real problem is that Russia as all BIG ONES wanted to be demanded, to be loved, so West Ukraine stayed undeveloped,

I'm not sure if keeping Ukraine poor was a deliberate planning by Russian leaders, however the fact is that 25 years (or longer taking USSR) or close relationship with Russian partner wasn't working well for Ukraine. In same 25 years, GDP of Poland (who joined EU) tripled, but Ukrainian economy was stuck in same place. No wonder people are angry and demand changes.

instead if we did not follow the eternal 'colonial policy' which demands one state with 2 or 3 components, like Iraq Kossovo Palestine, and solutions like Greek Turkey, India Pakistan, etc took place then all will be better, and these 2,2 billions could go produce progress,
NO THEY DO NOT NEAD THEM, ONLY THEY NEED, IS GOOD TRANSPARENT POLICY, DIPLOMACY AND REFERENDUMS.

True, lets be generous and give them some time now to work things out.

 

[Yetos]

I'm not sure if keeping Ukraine poor was a deliberate planning by Russian leaders, however the fact is that 25 years (or longer taking USSR) or close relationship with Russian partner wasn't working well for Ukraine. In same 25 years, GDP of Poland (who joined EU) tripled, but Ukrainian economy was stuck in same place. No wonder people are angry and demand changes.


True, lets be generous and give them some time now to work things out.

the big problem there, is that cities like Donetsk in East Ukraine have heavy industry due to ex-USSR, that worked for both Ukriane and Russia,
East Ukrainians feel russian friendly due to that,
in other side West Ukrainians have no Industry, their economy will vanish if they lose East Ukraine's Industry.
Spending 2,2 Billion EU for weapons will collapse the country,
Better solutions must be found, than spend money in guns industry,

I read somewhere that in the West the 'Russian feeling' was less than 8% but in East above 45% reaching 78% in some areas, and 85% in parts of Crimea!!!!!
we speak about a 50/50 60/40 of population which is serious, and must not overpassed.

but inside me I wonder, why so much money?
how come if is so poor country give so much money?
maybe to BUY HER FREEDOM?
OR TO ENTER A LOAN/DEPTH CASE?

something like Argentina/UK case in the F*land islands?

 

[LeBrok]

but inside me I wonder, why so much money?
how come if is so poor country give so much money?

Because the Russians are coming! :samurai: etrified:

 

[Yetos]

Because the Russians are coming! :samurai: etrified:

naaaaaaaaaa,

compare it with Kossovo case,
something else is there,

 

[Yetos]

I am sorry to post that, that is bad news
but I think the time is late,

the first group from balkans already step foot in Ukraine,

that means the scenario of a total war is opened, Europe will hear the sirens again,

from country 2 groups left,
one with to support Donetsk rabels, mostly Greek-Russians
and the other to protect Marioupolis ?? Crimean Greeks

seems like also man from Serbia USA!!! GERMANY!!!!! travel to Donetsk.

I think Obama will pass to history as the worst president ever, worst than Karter at 70's.
after so many time war, and no critical solution, and just bombing rabels, the war is certain,

 

[LeBrok]

Russian paratroopers captured around Donetsk.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...in-Ukraine-overshadows-talks-with-Russia.html

 

[Christiaan]

I am sorry to post that, that is bad news
but I think the time is late,

the first group from balkans already step foot in Ukraine,

that means the scenario of a total war is opened, Europe will hear the sirens again,

from country 2 groups left,
one with to support Donetsk rabels, mostly Greek-Russians
and the other to protect Marioupolis ?? Crimean Greeks

seems like also man from Serbia USA!!! GERMANY!!!!! travel to Donetsk.

I think Obama will pass to history as the worst president ever, worst than Karter at 70's.
after so many time war, and no critical solution, and just bombing rabels, the war is certain,

Worst than Carter isn't possible, because Carter was a one term president. For now Bush junior in the recent history was the worst the, one who invaded in Iraq, the rest is poorly managed fallout by Obama.

Well, this already going for a while like this, but it becomes for Russia more and more difficult to deny their involvement. They are importing tanks of a type now that only the Russian army uses and this shows that they don't seem to do any serious effort to keep up the appearance.

For now the numbers of volunteers for the Ukrainian side I think from abroad is quite small. Even for the Russian side it becomes more and more difficult to find enough mercenaries (especially veterans like Chechens) so it has to send in young troops into the battle, like the guys in the photo's posted by LeBrok.

http://www.interpretermag.com/

But it seems that not only Russia is arming the conflict now, their are signs that Eastern European countries of Nato are aiding Ukraine with old Soviet weapons as well, at least those that the Ukraine has in use itself. But this might change of course if Russia decides to openly invade Ukraine.

https://news.vice.com/article/nato-isnt-arming-ukraine-just-like-russia-isnt-fighting-there

 

[Yetos]

Worst than Carter isn't possible, because Carter was a one term president. For now Bush junior in the recent history was the worst the, one who invaded in Iraq, the rest is poorly managed fallout by Obama.

Well, this already going for a while like this, but it becomes for Russia more and more difficult to deny their involvement. They are importing tanks of a type now that only the Russian army uses and this shows that they don't seem to do any serious effort to keep up the appearance.

For now the numbers of volunteers for the Ukrainian side I think from abroad is quite small. Even for the Russian side it becomes more and more difficult to find enough mercenaries (especially veterans like Chechens) so it has to send in young troops into the battle, like the guys in the photo's posted by LeBrok.

http://www.interpretermag.com/

But it seems that not only Russia is arming the conflict now, their are signs that Eastern European countries of Nato are aiding Ukraine with old Soviet weapons as well, at least those that the Ukraine has in use itself. But this might change of course if Russia decides to openly invade Ukraine.

https://news.vice.com/article/nato-isnt-arming-ukraine-just-like-russia-isnt-fighting-there

I agree with that, Nato is expecting something like Ossetia, a 24/48 hour war
but don't think Russia is so stupid

 

[Christiaan]

Well, a year ago I would have thought Russia is not that stupid, but Ukraine is a different story because it is not a small insignificant country that you can invade or lets say defeat just like that. And that's why this is a very dangerous move of Russia. You can start a war, but you can't plan the end of it.

I think Russia will admit openly for invading parts of Ukraine only if they are on the winning hand, at least they will try to delay that moment if is not going that smoothly. Therefore the danger for the Russians is that they have to come forward with the truth, before they achieve that goal. And if that is happening it might turn into a more sinister proxy-war than it is now. Meaning, openly material support of Nato and Russia in this conflict escalating in terms of human casualties.

By the way this is no joke, but it sounds surreal. What are Russian soldiers do during their vacation? They relax on the beach you might think.... wrong, they fight in a warzone, ofcourse. Most recent excuse of Russian seperatistleader to explain why there are Russian soldiers on Ukrainian soil. The excuses become more and more cynical.

 

[Ike]

But it seems that not only Russia is arming the conflict now, their are signs that Eastern European countries of Nato are aiding Ukraine with old Soviet weapons as well, at least those that the Ukraine has in use itself. But this might change of course if Russia decides to openly invade Ukraine.

West wanted to involve Russia in that war just to widen the gap between Ukrainians and Russians. And Russians made a wrong estimates from the beginning and played their game hoping that Ukrainians won't swallow the bait. Russia should have invaded Ukraine the first day, hanged couple of dozens of warmongers and stop that farce.

 

[Yetos]

West wanted to involve Russia in that war just to widen the gap between Ukrainians and Russians. And Russians made a wrong estimates from the beginning and played their game hoping that Ukrainians won't swallow the bait. Russia should have invaded Ukraine the first day, hanged couple of dozens of warmongers and stop that farce.

that would russians the bad guy, like hungary and czechoslovakia at USSr times,

what I wonder is why bombing started so fast, and political desicions discused in diplomatic field,
that what is happenning was expecting by all, Ukraine is not the Balts, and Russia will not allow a loss of its heavy industrial areas a commonwealth from the communist past that shares with Ukraine,
seems even UN did nothing, so the war again is over Europe,

 

[Christiaan]

that would russians the bad guy, like hungary and czechoslovakia at USSr times,

what I wonder is why bombing started so fast, and political desicions discused in diplomatic field,
that what is happenning was expecting by all, Ukraine is not the Balts, and Russia will not allow a loss of its heavy industrial areas a commonwealth from the communist past that shares with Ukraine,
seems even UN did nothing, so the war again is over Europe,

Simply buying time and see what Poroshenko had to offer, that's all in other words opportunistic meeting. Putin didn't like the offer so fighting is continuing.
The UN can do nothing, because every proposal that could de-escalate the situation would be vetoed by Russia as a member of the security council.

 

[Christiaan]

West wanted to involve Russia in that war just to widen the gap between Ukrainians and Russians. And Russians made a wrong estimates from the beginning and played their game hoping that Ukrainians won't swallow the bait. Russia should have invaded Ukraine the first day, hanged couple of dozens of warmongers and stop that farce.

Yeah... right it's some evil scheme of the west to play Ukraine apart. However I think they had some real misconceptions on how Russia would react if Ukraine would sign an EU treaty. They simply didn't expect that Russia would invade Ukraine, that it would recognize basic international law you know something like do not invade a neighbouring country if it is officially not yours .

And Putin still thinks that it can get away with it, although even now he must realize that he is in a loose-loose situation. He has to choose between healthy relations with foreign countries or the support of its own brainwashed citizens that are now in patriotic nationalistic mood.

 

[LeBrok]

And Putin still thinks that it can get away with it, although even now he must realize that he is in a loose-loose situation. He has to choose between healthy relations with foreign countries or the support of its own brainwashed citizens that are now in patriotic nationalistic mood.

Exactly, and the only move he will make is to satisfy Russians, because as long as Russians are happy with him he will be el presidente. Ordinary Russians will be poorer in near future, but he will be the Tzar, so who cares.

 

[LeBrok]

West wanted to involve Russia in that war just to widen the gap between Ukrainians and Russians. And Russians made a wrong estimates from the beginning and played their game hoping that Ukrainians won't swallow the bait. Russia should have invaded Ukraine the first day, hanged couple of dozens of warmongers and stop that farce.

Oh, thanks for exposing your dirty sole again.

 

[Ike]

Yeah... right it's some evil scheme of the west to play Ukraine apart. However I think they had some real misconceptions on how Russia would react if Ukraine would sign an EU treaty. They simply didn't expect that Russia would invade Ukraine, that it would recognize basic international law you know something like do not invade a neighbouring country if it is officially not yours .

And Putin still thinks that it can get away with it, although even now he must realize that he is in a loose-loose situation. He has to choose between healthy relations with foreign countries or the support of its own brainwashed citizens that are now in patriotic nationalistic mood.

Why would Russia do it? Neither did CIA respect any of the countries that it devastated, Ukraine included.