The Celts of Iberia

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This is the point where you fail. The Celts were a minority too.


At school we were taught and passed on to the Celtic migrations were large enough to create the training with the Spanish Iberians of this, so that when talking about other peoples, Phoenicians, Vikings, Goths, Visigoths, Greeks, mentioned as they were here, but when referring to Celtic as trainers showed us the heart of our village close to Iberians as I said before, all in history class, it made ​​you feel neither Celtic or Iberian, because is traced back to the historical past, it was clear that in this we were Spanish.
 
Hey Cambria Red, are you OK? Everyone here with any knowledge of Celtic history, archaeology and linguistics is laughing at you. How much punishment can you take?

Dude, didn't you get the memo? You lose your insane "argument" weeks to weeks.:useless:

It is abundantly clear you have no sense. :useless::useless::useless:

What is the definition of insanity again?
 
You put always the same arguments : there are evidences of Celtic presence in Spain. No-one denies it. I just say that they were scattered minorities, or aristocratic groups, like Franks or Scandinavians in France. Where you have difficulties to get it ? And yes, E-Keltoi is not a reliable source. Concluding that Spain was celtic just because we found toponyms and inscriptions is simply un-professional. It's not me, the sources are clear, and I've posted it. Do you think that I will put them again and again ?

You have posted nothing that is even remotely acceptable or reliable. Just a bunch of unfounded opinions. You are rolling a boulder up a mountain.:LOL: Come on guy, try and refute the evidence. Try it. Go on little Grizz. You will be embarrassed again and again.

Read what I wrote earlier. It is not just e-Keltoi monographs and research papers. That's only a small part of the scholarship. There is a very large body of evidence that Celtic experts fully agree on. The Celts were a LARGE majority in Iberia. Read the material on this thread and others, and stop spewing garbage.
 
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Interesting link

http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/6_4/lorrio_zapatero_6_4.html

The Iberian Celts from a European perspective

Even though we recognize that there are many unresolved problems and issues regarding the Iberian Celts and their links with the Celts from the other side of the Pyrenees, we believe that it is possible to establish a series of firm and interesting conclusions:

It is absolutely essential to abandon once and for all the traditional interpretation that links the Peninsular Celts with the La Tène culture, a fact that has been used for decades as the criteria to exclude Iberia from the Celtic world, or at best refer to it as the setting for a strange and atypical regional group, the Celtiberians. Some European theories now explicitly recognize this fact, and admit the existence of a group with its own identity that emerged before the migratory movements of the La Tène culture. This has also happened in interpretations relating to other European regions, as is the case with the Lepontic language and the Golasecca culture in northern Italy.

The emergence of the Celtiberian culture in the sixth century BC has created a new paradigm to understand the process of Celticization of the Iberian Peninsula. It has also forced scholars to construct scenarios to explain the complex relationship between the Celtic language, ethnicity and material culture. We do not have all the answers, but we have managed to create some different frameworks to think about the Celtic question, and suggestive hypotheses are emerging that can be compared with each other.
Whereas the Iberian Celts were previously considered as something peripheral to continental Celtica, the shattering of the classic paradigm, the need to rethink the "language-ethnicity-material culture" contents and the possibility to do this from new standpoints, places the Iberian Peninsula in an advantageous position. We can use European Celtic worlds in a fruitful comparative analysis (Alberro 2003). We should not forget that the evidence of Celtic languages in Iberia (especially Celtiberian where discoveries are constantly being made that increase the number of available texts and inscriptions) is among the richest of Celtic Europe. Furthermore, the information on Peninsular Celts contained in Classical sources is also much more extensive than that of other European regions, with the exception perhaps of Gaul, and the need to consider differentiated material cultures in the different Peninsular Celtic groups provides an impetus to rethink the significance of material culture itself. Therefore, it is not surprising that studies of Iberian Celtic culture in the last fifteen years can be considered the most ground breaking of all Celtic Europe. We would even go as far as to suggest the Iberian Peninsula provides a vantage point for a renewed vision of the European Celtic world, since we are convinced that currently the views of archaeological Celticism are strongly conditioned by two factors: the geographical-cultural perspective from which analysis is carried out, and the theoretical position of authors. Celts are seen differently in Germany, the United Kingdom or Spain, and in turn, the historical-cultural, processual or radical post-processual paradigms impose different filters for approaching the Celts as a subject of study.
 
You put always the same arguments : there are evidences of Celtic presence in Spain. No-one denies it. I just say that they were scattered minorities, or aristocratic groups, like Franks or Scandinavians in France. Where you have difficulties to get it ?
Because all evidence points out the contrary of scattered minoirity. I've shown plenty of sources from different studies saying that Celts were a majority in the center-west of Iberia. Read the previous pages where I posted those sources.

And yes, E-Keltoi is not a reliable source. Concluding that Spain was celtic just because we found toponyms and inscriptions is simply un-professional.
Unprofessional ? That's what all professionals do to make the conlcusions, not only in Iberia but anywhere. Anyways, you also forget all the ancient authors that wrote about Iberia. So, we have pleny of ancient sources talking about the celts of Iberia, the hundreds of celtic inscriptions, the archaelogy, the toponyms, the words of celtic origin in the local dialects,etc but you think it's all a fantasy ? What world are you living in ?

This is the point where you fail. The Celts were a minority too.
Read the study that I posted, it's from the Real Academy of History and the Casa Velázquez, where they make an approximate calculation of the population of celtiberians, around 400.000 people, (40% of the entire Peninsula), but that's only the celtiberians, without counting all the other celtic tribes. So yes, a majority.
 
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Because all evidence points out the contrary of scattered minoirity. I've shown plenty of sources from different studies saying that Celts were a majority in the center-west of Iberia. Read the previous pages where I posted those sources.


Unprofessional ? That's what all professionals do to make the conlcusions, not only in Iberia but anywhere. Anyways, you also forget all the ancient authors that wrote about Iberia. So, we have pleny of ancient sources talking about the celtici of Iberia, the hundreds of celtic inscriptions, the toponyms, the words of celtic origin in the local dialects, but you think it's all a fantasy ? What world are you living in ?


Read the study that I posted, it's from the Real Academy of History and the Casa Velázquez, where they make an approximate calculation of the population of celtiberians, around 400.000 people, (40% of the entire Peninsula), but that's only the celtiberians, without counting all the other celtic tribes. So yes, a majority.

Perhaps he has a conceptual issue with respect to differentiating majority from minority. :LOL: Certain maladies can cause this type of confusion.
 
@Grizzly:

Mr. Twilight Zone, here is a challenge for you: Send all your odd-ball notions on Spanish and Portuguese Celticity to some of the top Celtic studies programs in the world for comment. I dare you. Here are three of the best to begin:

1) Harvard University
Prof. Catherine McKenna (Chair)
Dept. of Celtic Languages and Literature
Baker Center
12 Quincy Street
Cambridge MA

2) University of California at Berkeley
Celtic Studies
Prof. Dana Hellman (Chair)
6308 Dwinelle
Berkeley, CA

3) University of Oxford
Dr. T.M.O. Charles-Edwards (Chair)
Faculty of Medieval and Modern Languages - Celtic Studies
41-47
Wellington Square
Oxford
England

I'll provide you with e-mail addresses if you like.:)

Time to get real little guy.:LOL:

Oh, here are a few more for you to contact if you haven't had enough punishment after discussing things with the three institutions mentioned above:

1) University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee.
2) University of Toronto.
3) University of Ottawa.
4) University of Wales.
 
Grizzly the scourge of the Keltoi.
 
Ah, let's see...Proto-Celts and Celts were in Western Iberia and nearly all of Portugal in significant numbers for...hmmm over 1,500 years.

Game over.

Proto-Celts and Celts are not really the same. If you mean Unetice and Urnfield by proto Celts then the Italics people, the Ligurian and latin were proto Celts too
 
This topic was opened two years ago!!

Why couldn't you people reach an agreement and move on?
 
Proto-Celts and Celts are not really the same. If you mean Unetice and Urnfield by proto Celts then the Italics people, the Ligurian and latin were proto Celts too

I know they are not the same. I mentioned both because I'm stressing an historical cultural progression that lead to the formation and growth of Celticity.
 
I know they are not the same. I mentioned both because I'm stressing an historical cultural progression that lead to the formation and growth of Celticity.

I do not deny that to a certain extent, Western Iberia was affected by Celtic culture but I want you to answer this question:

to which stage of Celtic Culture did Iberia belong to?
 

Interesting, it basically just reaffirms and underlines what I've been trying to say all along: Hallstatt/La-Tene very well explains the spread of Gauls (as well as related people such as the Norians and the Galatians), but Hallstatt/La-Tene alone cannot explain the presence of Celtic-speaking peoples on the Iberian penninsula. It's also nice to see that for the sake of completeness, the article mentions the Lepontii. Lepontic is the oldest undisputedly Celtic language, it's also one of the most archaic ones (the only one I would call more archaic is Celtiberian - primarily because it is Q-Celtic whereas Lepontic just like Gaulish and Brythonic is P-Celtic). From the archaeological perspective, it is associated with the Golasecca Culture.

In other words, the Celtic-speaking peoples of Iberia are not exactly "alone".
 
Interesting, it basically just reaffirms and underlines what I've been trying to say all along: Hallstatt/La-Tene very well explains the spread of Gauls (as well as related people such as the Norians and the Galatians), but Hallstatt/La-Tene alone cannot explain the presence of Celtic-speaking peoples on the Iberian penninsula. It's also nice to see that for the sake of completeness, the article mentions the Lepontii. Lepontic is the oldest undisputedly Celtic language, it's also one of the most archaic ones (the only one I would call more archaic is Celtiberian - primarily because it is Q-Celtic whereas Lepontic just like Gaulish and Brythonic is P-Celtic). From the archaeological perspective, it is associated with the Golasecca Culture.

In other words, the Celtic-speaking peoples of Iberia are not exactly "alone".

Do you have an idea of when Lepontic died out?
 
Do you have an idea of when Lepontic died out?

I'd have to look it up in detail, but it's clear from the inscriptions that Lepontic was supplanted by (Cisalpine) Gaulish. Therefore, clearly the pre-Roman period. The Leponti used a variant of the Etruscan alphabet to write their language, and when the Gauls arrived they continued to use it for their language.
 
I do not deny that to a certain extent, Western Iberia was affected by Celtic culture but I want you to answer this question:

to which stage of Celtic Culture did Iberia belong to?

The Greek historian Herodotus wrote ~ 450 BC that the Celts occupied the most western regions of Europe, what is now Southern Portugal (Algarve and the Alentejo) and South-west Spain (Western Andalusia). He wrote:

"...The Keltoi (Celts) live beyond the Pillars of Hercules [Straights of Gibraltar] and border the Cynetes who are the westernmost inhabitants of Europe..." (trans, Freeman in Koch & Carey 2003,5).

In ~ 40 BC Strabo, another Greek historian, describes Celtic tribes as occupying North-west Spain and NW Portugal with cultural practices very similar to the Gauls.

The Atlantic School posits that Celtic speaking communities were already present in SW Iberia as early as ~ 825 BC (Cunliffe and Koch, 2010).

It should be said that the Greeks never clearly located the Celts in the central European zone (Hallstatt / La Tene). See Koch (2010) and Collis (2003).
 
The Greek historian Herodotus wrote ~ 450 BC that the Celts occupied the most western regions of Europe, what is now Southern Portugal (Algarve and the Alentejo) and South-west Spain (Western Andalusia). He wrote:

"...The Keltoi (Celts) live beyond the Pillars of Hercules [Straights of Gibraltar] and border the Cynetes who are the westernmost inhabitants of Europe..." (trans, Freeman in Koch & Carey 2003,5).

To be honest, this is to be taken with a grain of salt. Herodotus was, in many respects, geographically challenged. We do not know how much knowledge the Greeks in his time (5th century BC) - and how much he actually had of the Atlantic Façade and of Westenr Europe. There is no mentioning for instance of the Iberians by Herodotus, who clearly were in contact with the Greeks.

In ~ 40 BC Strabo, another Greek historian, describes Celtic tribes as occupying North-west Spain and NW Portugal with cultural practices very similar to the Gauls.

This is correct. On th other hand, Strabo also describes the Turdetani (who are probably the descends of the Tartessians, as Iberians).

The Atlantic School posits that Celtic speaking communities were already present in SW Iberia as early as ~ 825 BC (Cunliffe and Koch, 2010).

This notion is purely based on the idea that Tartessian is a Celtic language, which can be refuted with certainty (since the examples that Koch brought up do not conform to Celtic sound laws). However, while I wouldn't rule out that Celtic languages were spoken in Iberia by the 9th century BC (in fact, this is kind of inevitable since you cannot otherwise explain the thorough presence of (Q-)Celtic-speaking peoples in Iberia.

It should be said that the Greeks never clearly located the Celts in the central European zone (Hallstatt / La Tene). See Koch (2010) and Collis (2003).

I disagree. First off, the Celtic invasion of the Balkans cannot be written away. It resulted in the attempted invasion of Greece (notably, the battle of the Thermopylae in 279 BC). A part of the Celtic tribes (offshots of the Boii and Volcae) moved on further into Anatolia and established the kingdom of Galatia, which lasted until it was subjugated by the Romans. The Galatians clearly came from Central Europe.

Furthermore, there are, although scarce and short, clearly Celtic inscriptions from Austria, Bavaria and Slovenia, written in variants of both the Greek and Etruscan alphabets.

There is also linguistic evidence in the Germanic languages, namely clearly Celtic borrowings which MUST have entered into Proto-Germanic because they correspond to common Germanic sound laws. Proto-Germanic makes the mutation from initial K -> H (compare Latin "centum" with English "hundred").

One example is the word for "steed", which is found in Gaulish as "Marcos" (Breton "Marc'h", Welsh "March"), which is found in English "Mare" and German "Mähre".

There is also the term *Walha- to be considered, which means "foreigner", used in opposition to the term *Theudiskaz ("one's own tribe" - used today for instance in the word "Deutschland"). It is found today in place names like "Wales", "Wallonia" and "Wallachia", and is probably derived from the Celtic tribal name "Volcae".

Perhaps even more drastic is the word for "iron":

Gaulish - "Isarnos"
Irish - "Iarann"
Breton - "Houarn"
Welsh - "Haern"

English - "Iron"
Dutch - "Ijzer"
German - "Eisen"
Gothic - "Isarn"
Swedish - "Järn"

Archaeologically, iron-working arrives in northern Germany / Scandinavia from the Hallstatt Culture. The similarity of Gaulish "Isarnos" and Gothic "Isarn" very striking - you have a clear correlation that iron working must have arrived with the Germanic peoples from Celtic-speaking peoples. Since we know archaeologically speaking when iron-working arrived in northern Germany, we can roughly date this time of Celtic-Germanic contact to approximately 600 BC.

Finally, there is also onomastic evidence. Ptolemy in his "Geographia" offers readily identifiable Celtic place names not only in Noricum and Vindelicia, in fact Celtic town names extend as far as the Main and even as far north and east as Silesia. It's quite astounding that in Ptolemy's time (2nd century AD), a time in which the areas north of the Danube must clearly have been Germanicized, you still find plenty of Celtic town names.

One issue I wanted to add regard for Herodotus, he claims that the Celts (Keltoi) lived near the source of the Istros (Danube). Now, again, Herodotus seems to have been really challenged here because he apparently thought that the Danube was flowing from the Pyrenees through half of Europe. Some people (Koch) think that this is evidence that the Greeks placed the Celts in the Pyrenees, and not into Central Europe. The problem with this is that in the Pyrenees, there is practically no onomastic evidence of Celtic languages - only Basque/Aquitanian and Iberian. Even with the Gaulish tribes in the vicinity of the Pyrenees (for instance, the Volcae Tectosages), there is evidence of an Aquitanian substrate. This shows that the Gauls were relatively recent immigrants in this area. In contrast, there verymuch is Celtic presence in the actual source area of the Danube.

This is, in my opinion, also the key weakness of the hypothesis of the Atlantic School: if the Celtic languages do have their origin in the Atlantic Facade? What does this make of Hallstatt and La-Tene? We cannot simply ignore all the evidence above. Just like Hallstatt/La-Tene (or even Urnfield) cannot explain the presence of Celtic languages in Iberia, the Atlantic Bronze Age alone cannot explain the thorough presence of Celtic-speaking people in Central Europe.
 
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