The Celts of Iberia

[Smertrius]

7.46% of E-M81 in Galicia according to this (Maciamo used this same tables ) :
http://iberianroots.com/statistics/iberian_peninsula.html

Whatever.
I just quoted E-M81 to make a comparison with the British Isles and Brittany because it seemed to be the most distinctive subsclade found in Galicia from what I gathered here, but it could be R-M153 or R-M167 or another subsclade I really don't care.
My point is that since the British Isles and Brittany are overwhelmingly R-L21 and that R-L21 is not significantly found in Galicia there is no Y-DNA link between the two regions. They're both R1b, but you know how relevant it is.

 

[Wilhelm]

Whatever.
I just quoted E-M81 to make a comparison with the British Isles and Brittany because it seemed to be the most distinctive subsclade found in Galicia from what I gathered here, but it could be R-M153 or R-M167 or another subsclade I really don't care.
My point is that since the British Isles and Brittany are overwhelmingly R-L21 and that R-L21 is not significantly found in Galicia there is no Y-DNA link between the two regions. They're both R1b, but you know how relevant it is.

What determines the genetic distances are not just determined by haplogroups, there are other genetic markers

 

[Smertrius]

And what makes you think that S28 and L21 are the exclusively considered Celts and not the others descendants of S-116, like M-167 ??
This is ridiculous...
By the way the S28 and L21 are also found in Iberia...

S28 and L21 are the subsclades found where the La Tène Culture arised. And i didn't say that they're exclusively Celtic but that the Celts belonged to them, can't you see the difference?
They can be found in Iberia, but i doubt that their % is comparable to the one found in NW France and SW Germany.

All the S-116 branch is Celtic

Sorry, but the Basques and the Iberians (the historical ones) are not Celtic, there's no need to argue about that. Thus M167 and M153 are not Celtic.

 

[Smertrius]

What determines the genetic distances are not just determined by haplogroups, there are other genetic markers

Yes, and that's why i posted the links to the Hla study. And once again, Brittany and northern France as a whole appeared completly different from Southern France and particularly from Basques and French Catalans.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Yes, and that's why i posted the links to the Hla study. And once again, Brittany and northern France as a whole appeared completly different from Southern France and particularly from Basques and French Catalans.

My man, you are sounding like a broken record; "that subcalde is not Celtic...nothing Iberian is Celtic". Are you a professional population geneticist? You keep saying the same things repeatedly but are proving zero. Iberia has no celticity, genetic or otherwise, because YOU say so? Grow up!

The studies you put up here are informative but prove little, and they can be refuted over and over again with other material. There are more than just two Celtic subclades. Again, you have a twisted agenda, dude. You mentioned you are a graduate student, yes? How the h***l do you find time to study and write, given your obsession with proving that Iberia (and perhaps other nations) does / do not have a Celtic substratum. What are you afraid of? Tell me, please, I'm very curious. Do you hate certain people because they want to confirm their true ethnicity? How sick is that? Do you need to punish "The Other" to make yourself feel better about "things"?

 

[Wilhelm]

S-116 is proto-Celtic.
The truth is, S28 is a very recently discovered subclade, very few people have been tested with it... By the way, the M-167 is a rather minoritary subclade in Iberia : http://mcewanjc.org/m167.htm
And the L21 is probably Germanic..

 

[Smertrius]

Vamos a ver, ¿has entendido?:

Eu18 and Eu19 characterize about 50% of the European Y chromosomes.
Although they share M173, the two haplotypes show contrasting geographic distribution. The frequency of Eu18 decreases from west to east, being most frequent in Basques. This lineage includes the previously described proto-European lineage that is characterized by the 49a,f haplotype 15. In contrast, haplotype Eu19, which is derived from the M173 lineage and is distinguished by M17, is virtually absent in Western Europe. Its frequency increases eastward and reaches a maximum in Poland, Hungary, and Ukraine, where Eu18 in turn is virtually absent.(cf. Chiaroni Jacques; Underhill Peter A; Cavalli-Sforza Luca L.: Y chromosome diversity, human expansion, drift, and cultural evolution, 2009).

Eu18 is R1b and is found in W Europe and Eu19 is R1a and is found in E Europe. What's your point ? You're stating the obvious here.
And I'm sorry but your quotes don't come from a 2009 work but from (Semino et. al., 2000), I found the site where you copied it almost word for word.

¿cómo puedes explicarme entonces este gráfico acerca de las "pocas relaciones" genéticas entre Britania y BAsconia, que pretendes demostrar en tus mapas, en la que se mezclan variedades de marcadores HLA, cuando YO ME REFIERO EXACTAMENTE A VARIEDADES DE MARCADORES HLA extraidos de R1b?

Explícalo!!!!

The Graph you show is completely outdated, you must understand that the Atlantic Modal Haplotype stage is over now. We've switched to R1b subsclades.
About the Hla maps they draw a genetic profile of France using most of the hla markers found here. The fact is that there's no relation in term of Hla between the Bretons and the Basques, you might not like it because it goes against the Atlantic genetic link you'd like to see, but that's how things are.

And seriously... Since when Hla markers are extracted from Y-DNA ? They belong to the immune system, the two things have nothing to do with each other.

Aqui no hay lenguas derivadas de La Tène o de Hallastatt, son muy anteriores, o ¿refutas también a Kristiansen (2001: 445, n. 3 y 471), James (2005: 21),Toth (2009:321), Prósper (2002, 25-26), Bernardo Stempel (2002, 97ff.)
y hasta tu adorado Kruta (2001, 41), que nos dice que la formación de la lengua celta pudo haberse inciado en el 3000 a.C.?

Q-Celtic and P-Celtic languages are close languages, like Low German and High German, like French and Occitan, etc... They're separated by many isoglosses like it happens in every language, but the fact is that they're too close to not have evolved from a common Celtic base (you can't have that close languages evolving separatly from different IE dialects one in NW Iberia and the other in Central Europe ending in forming one distinctive family), and that base is not likely to have originate in Lusitania to then reach Southern Germany.
And I don't see how V. Kruta could have say that the formation of celtic language started circa 3000 BC, since the IE peoples hadn't even reached Central Europe at that time. But anyway, it still backs what i say, Celtic was then already formed when the Celts reached Iberia.

Claro que es cierto que R1B se presenta en muchos europeos, pero la cuestión es que la mayor parte de sus variedades se originan en la Península Ibérica o a partir de la Península, y se esparcen por todo el continente europeo, entre todas las poblaciones, y entre ellas, las que tu consideras como celtas (que no deja de ser un término peyorativo en boca de un romano).

No.
Neither R1b nor the majority of its subsclades come from the Iberian Peninsula but from Asia via Central Europe.

R-M173 y H1/H3. No hay celtas sin estos dos componentes genéticos mayoritarios, o ¿puedes demostrarme lo contrario?.

Demuéstramelo Smertrius, sé que puedes hacerlo.

Of course I can, because it makes no sense. Quasi all Europe is mainly R1 and H, we're all one big Celtic family using your "evidences".

 

[Smertrius]

My man, you are sounding like a broken record; "that subcalde is not Celtic...nothing Iberian is Celtic". Are you a professional population geneticist? You keep saying the same things repeatedly but proving zero. Iberia has no celticity, genetic or otherwise, because YOU say so? Grow up!

You're not a geneticist either Cambria, your opinion doesn't worth more than mine.

The studies you put up here are informative but prove little, and they can be refuted over and over again with other material.

Refute them then.

There are more than just two Celtic subclades.

Once again, i didn't say that they are Celtic subsclades, just that the Celts belonged to them, that's different.

Again, you have a twisted agenda, dude. You mentioned you are a graduate student, yes? How the h***l do you find time to study and write given your obsession with proving that Iberia (and perhaps other nations) does / do not have a Celtic substratum.

I never had more free time in my life since I entered University, if you had studied in an European one you'd know that. And once again I'm not obsessed, I just keep answering in that thread.

What are you afraid of? Tell me, please, I'm very curious. Do you hate certain people because they want to confirm their true ethnicity? How sick is that? Do you need to punish "The Other" to make yourself feel better about "things"?

Seriously, what does the fact that I say that Iberians are Celtised and not Celts have to do with hate ?
Do you feel persecuted ?

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Smertrius:

You have no idea which universities I graduated from. How about Columbia and Brown? You think where you are studying is any more rigorous than these two institutions? I really doubt it is. Ask me what area my advanced degrees are in, if you don't know already. One thing is certain, I'm not a population geneticist, and don't pretend to be one.

Are YOU trying to make others feel persecuted? I certainly don't feel persecuted, since I'm perfectly comfortable with my heritage. However, I am sick of people who sit on a high horse, racially slander Iberians and try to deny them their true ethnicity. Most of these charlatans are cretinous intra-race racists who somehow feel threatened by the fact that Iberians, in reality, are far different than the laughable stereotype that is constantly projected. Obviously, you are not one of those but, in some ways, nearly as bad.

Let me ask you something, do YOU feel persecuted? Do you feel insecure about something?

And, please, don't tell me you are just answering the thread...

 

[Wilhelm]

S-116 is proto-Celtic.
The truth is, S28 is a very recently discovered subclade, very few people have been tested with it... By the way, the M-167 is a minoritary subclade of R1b in Iberia : http://mcewanjc.org/m167.htm

 

[^ lynx ^]

Our Celtic roots lie in Spain and Portugal

icWales
May 5,, 2008


Professor John Koch suggests the Welsh can trace their ancestry back to Portugal and Spain, debunking the century-old received wisdom that our forebears came from Iron Age Germany and Austria.

His radical work on Celtic origins flatly contradicts the writing of Sir John Rhys, who in the late 19th century established the idea that we originally came from central Europe.

Sir John believed the Celts were the remnants of a great culture that extended here from modern-day eastern France, Switzerland, southern Germany and Austria.

But Professor Koch, of the University of Wales Centre for Advanced Welsh & Celtic Studies, in Aberystwyth, says archaeological inscriptions on stones show we came from southern Portugal and south-west Spain.


He said: “Celts are said to come from west central Europe – Austria, southern Germany, eastern France and that part of the world.

“That’s been the theory that everybody has grown up with for at least 100 years.

“There is evidence that the Celtic languages were spoken there because of place names and people’s names.

“But the assumption was that was where they came from. I think they got there later.

“There is evidence in Spain and Portugal indicating they were there 500 or more years before.”

Professor Koch says there are Celtic texts in Portugal and Spain way before they started springing up in central Europe during Roman times.

One key piece of evidence is the earliest written language of western Europe – Tartessian, found on inscribed stones in Portugal and Spain dating back to between 800BC and 400BC. The professor maintains this language can be deciphered as Celtic.

Expert on Welsh history and archaeology Dr Raimund Karl, says there is also biological and genetic evidence to support professor Koch’s theory.

He said: “In the last couple of years there have been a number of genetic studies of human DNA indicating that the population of much of the western part of the British Isles is related to other communities along the Atlantic seafront. These include Brittany, northern Spain, Portugal and the French Atlantic coast. That’s their genetic origin.”

But Dr Karl, of the University of Wales, Bangor, said there is also archaeological evidence suggesting a cultural link with central Europe.

“There is evidence suggesting a link with central Europe from elite-material culture – stuff associated with the upper parts of society. This includes weaponry, feasting equipment, artwork on jewellery and other prestigious items.”

However the academic said attempts to identify a biological Celt or notions of cultures emanating from a particular spot are meaningless. He believes human cultures and populations are constantly in a state of flux, drawing their influences from far and wide.

Dr Karl, himself an Austrian, added: “I personally think the question of where Celtic culture originated is by and large meaningless. Culture is constantly changing and never has a single point of origin.

“The biological Celt is meaningless because human populations inter-mingle.”

Professor Koch will speak at Bangor University tomorrow at the main arts theatre at 6pm.


Source

 

[callaeca]

Eres un simple negacionista, Smertrius. Me temo que tus razones no son objetivas, y son más bien interesadas. Chiaroni et al. 2009, demuestra que R-M173 (Eu 18 o WAMH) es occidental, atlántico, oriundamente atlántico..no alpino, ni renano, ni de Bohemia, si no originariamente atlántico, ¿cómo es posible que el clan L21 y S28, tan impolutamente celta para ti, tenga esta característica tan propia de los vascos?

En sus mapas de estudio (http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2009/11/16/0910803106.DCSupplemental/0910803106SI.pdf)
puedes ver desarrollada su teoría en la que de R-M173 desciende R-M15 (Eu 19) y otros haplotipos, siendo además uno de los linajes protoindoeuropeos.

Para ti o todo es obsoleto o no válido cuanta demostración o soporte que se te ponga, actual o reciente. Sólo tu mapa HLA de Francia, única contribución positiva hasta el momento, es lo que para ti prevalece como única demostración teórica, aunque ¿qué parte y cuánta información de HLA ofrece ese ejemplo?, ¿qué época abarca?, ¿qué linajes recoge? ¿Se recogen muestras de alleles -A, -B, -X, -DRB1, -DQB1, non bHLA, MICA, TAP1, etc. o sólo la de poblaciones vecinas? PORQUE NO EXISTE NI UN SOLO RASTRO GENÉTICO HLA SOBRE UNA POSIBLE INVASION INDOEUROPEA que solo ha sido definida sobre dudosas bases lingüísticas.Y ¿qué me puedes decir de la mutación genética C282Y HFE, acontecida hace 40.000 años, y que parece caracterizar a algunos de nuestros teóricos celtas? ¿y de la mutación G101W que, aunque principalmente registrado en la Liguria, afecta a todo el phenotipo HLA-DRB1*04, característico de las poblaciones hallstátticas, pero QUE NO SE REGISTRA EN LA PENÍNSULA IBÉRICA?

Ni rastro de hallstáticos ni de latenienses en la Península Ibérica, Smertrius, y sin embargo se hablaron lenguas celtas, mucho antes de la existencia de los propios galos.

¿Por qué la Universidad de Colonia lleva 19 años excavando el santuario prerromano de Donón (Pontevedra)? ¿por qué Koch, Wodtko y otros especialistas están empeñados en buscar evidencias en la península? Cuando Hallstatt comenzaba a difundirse culturalmente, las gentes de la Península hablaban ya lenguas celtas establecidas mucho antes y hacían ritos tipológicamente definidos como celtas. Perigrinaciones seculares como a este santuario de Donón (por cierto topónimo similar a otro Donon de la Galia, del celta *dubnôn) que se ubicaba en el oppidum de Berobriga (hoy Monte do Facho). Esa es la realidad, Smertrius, ni rastro de invasiones indoeuropeas, ni rastro de invasiones celtas, aunque puedes creerte lo que te venga en gana, con el fin de satisfacer tu ego.

¿Tienes alguna obsesión con el pueblo bereber? A parte de su desgraciada poca contribución en nuestros genes (gallegos), este antiquísimo (30.000 años) y gran pueblo cuyos orígenes debemos situar en alguna parte del Cáucaso, genéticamente formado por un componente euroasiático: H, U, JT, V = 90.5% y norte africano: U6 = 9.5 %, está presente en una parte significativa, no escasa, pequeña, irrelevanta, insignificante, como tu dices o quieres imaginar, sino, repito, en una parte significativa, como demuestran varios marcadores de HLA, de la composición cromosómica europea (Holanda, Suiza, Bélgica, Alemania...Islas Británicas).

Desgracia que fuese tan poca su contribución genética en Galicia, que ni siquiera hemos heredado su 4% de rutilismo actual, cifra semejante al de Escocia, ni su blondismo, ni siquiera, y ni Francia tampoco, su porcentaje de ojos azules, 40%.

Como argumento para negar la celticidad de una determinada zona es, con mis debidos respetos, un absurdo, una farsa, porque lo mismo podría yo afirmar, con respecto a Austria (y concretamente al Tirol) de su no celticidad debido a sus porcentajes tan elevados de T-M70*, bastante más que el 6'3 o 7 de E-M80*de Galicia.

Te guste o no la mutación de S116 en sus subclades L21 y S28 pertenecen al ámbito del atlántico WAMH, por lo tanto NUNCA podrás evitar su relación con esta dimensión. Considerarlo como exclusivamente celta, como nacida por generación espontanea, es una interpretación tan fantasiosa e imaginaria como acientífica y arbitararia, que sólo conlleva a pensar en matices étnicas exclusivistas, que el término celta jamás ha tenido salvo en su zonas originarias: Hispania y la Celtica de la Galia desde el Marne y Sena hasta el Garona (núcleo precisamente no originario ni de Hallstatt ni de La Tène). La palabra celta es básicamente un simple concepto lingüístico.

Cuando esos nuevos celtas, que tu propones, entran en la historia, otros, mucho más antiguos que éstos y que habitaban por toda la costa atlántica, llevaban hablando esa lengua llamada celta desde el megalítico (3000 años a.C. como dice tu amado W. Kruta, 2001:41).

No pierdo más el tiempo discutiendo con una persona que niega la "celticidad" de S116, para afirmar luego que dos subclades inmediatos y específicos, de manera arbitraria, si tienen esa característica (¿étnica?). Si S116 no comporta esa celticidad, tal y como es definida tradicionalmente, raro será que los tenga sus subclades. Es un absurdo que no llega a ninguna parte, salvo la de imponer un criterio basado en conceptos personales y lleno de complejos.

 

[Reixach]

Por que os empecinais en buscarle una justificacion genetica a Lo Celta... la diferencia entre un ibero y un celta era mas bien cultural. Las mutaciones geneticas aparecen por adaptaciones al entorno, el clima, la latitud, la alimentacion etc, no por hablar una lengua, practicar ciertos ritos, creencias religiosas, hacer bud� o bailar la charanga.
Es normal que despues del deshielo y en epocas posgraciales las personas que se expandieron por centroeuropa desarrollaran diferentes mutaciones diferentes al resto de Europa, digamos que la genetica es tan diversa como los diferentes microclimas que hay en el planeta, caso europeo es el lince iberico o el boreal, o las diferentes clases de cabras monta�esas que hay en Europa y el norte de �frica, o podemos hablar de los caballos, cada uno se ha adaptado a las circunstaciones vitales que le han rodeado o... podriamos hablar de la infinidad de clases de perros... lo mismo ha pasado con el ser humano, podemos hablar tambi�n de elefantes, lagartijas, peces, cebras, leones, tigres etc, etc, etc, hay ejemplos para elegir. Hablar de unas caracteristicas geneticas celtas es RIDICULO cuando celta es un concepto cultural que abarcaba a una poblaci�n bastante homogenea pero con carateristicas propias resultado de su propia adaptacion a su propio territorio, no hay mas...
Otra cosa diferente es analizar la genetica para averiguar los movimientos poblacionales en tiempos historicos... que en eso es muy interesante la genetica. Lo que me llama la atencion es que no tengais en cuenta que los movimientos poblacionales son ciclicos, se repiten continuamente a lo largo de la historia, saber el pasado es una buena forma de entender el futuro.
Por cierto callaeca te empecinas en hablar de bereberes como caucasicos... que es eso de caucasicos? geneticamente es un termino muy anticuado, en USA aun se emplea para diferenciar la heterogenea sociedad americana, pero es un termino en desuso y anticuado, incluso Lo Indoeuropeo actualmente se esta cuestionando, por lo menos a nivel genetico.

 

[Wilhelm]

Caucásicos es una clasificacion que usa los científicos basada en medidas antropológicas físicas..como la forma craneal, estructura facial, etc. Dentro de los caucásicos hay varias razas o étnias, como los Europeos , indios, semitas,etc. que se puede saber gracias al ADN Autosomal

 

[callaeca]

Ya te he comentado Reixach que Caucásico es también una definición lingüistica. La lengua bereber, el hamítico, pertenece al ámbito de las lenguas Dene-Caucásicas.

Estoy bastante de acuerdo contigo Reixach en como has descrito el concepto de etnicidad "celta". En mi caso se trata simplemente un término lingüísitco, un grupo dialectal común del tronco "indoeuropeo", con sus aproximaciones y diferencias. No es, en nigún caso, una raza especial surgida por generación espontánea a partir de la aparición de determinadas marcas genéticas, como L21 y S28, como quiere Smertrius. Sería absurdo.

Y si esto es absurdo, también lo es la adquisición de esa "lengua céltica" a partir de intrusismos más o menos recientes, de no muy fácil explicación si hablamos de una o varias lenguas con características tan arcaicas (y siendo no válida la hipótesis de trabajo en cuanto a resultado de su aislamiento por su condición periférica).

Podría aceptarse como derivado de una hipotética expansión cultural de los campaniformes, pero ni siquiera así existe certeza, gran parte de autores lo desmienten, de movimientos poblaciones extensos para ese periodo, hablándose más bien de intercambios comerciales.

Un caso similar, por ejemplo, sería la llegada de gentes suébicas a la Península, que podrían haber supuesto un aporte poblacional estimado de unas 30.000 personas, según algunos autores, sobre una población total de 300.000 más o menos en su geografía de expansión. El aporte lexicográfico suébico en Galicia no llega a 8 palabras y el registro toponímico germánico (suébico y visigótico) no llega al 8%.

¿Como podemos creer en una sumisión lingüística realizada a cabo por la llegada de supuestas élites militares de celtas? Su desproporción numérica daría lugar a su asimilación lingüística por las gentes autóctonas con quienes tenían que forzosamente entenderse, y sabiendo que L21 (de escasa frecuencia) llega a Galicia con la población bretona que se ubicará en la mitad norte de Lugo y occidente de Asturias (donde precisamente se da un mayor porcentaje de los escasos ejemplos), y que S28, aún más escaso que anterior, pudo haber advenido: 1) en la mitad occidental a causa de la presencia contínua de la III Legion de la Galia, desde mediados del siglo II a.C. hasta comienzos de nuestra era, y, 2) en Cataluña y Valencia por el desplazamiento a finales del s. I a.C. de algunos pueblos galos (más bien belgas).

 

[Reixach]

Wilhelm cari?o por favor actualizate, si me hablas de genetica no me hables de caucasicos... utilizas un lenguaje mas propio del siglo XX. Que cientificos hablan de genes caucasicos? ADN caucasico? por favor un poquito de seriedad... Que haplogrupos son originarios del caucaso?

 

[Wilhelm]

Wilhelm cari�o por favor actualizate, si me hablas de genetica no me hables de caucasicos... utilizas un lenguaje mas propio del siglo XX. Que cientificos hablan de genes caucasicos? ADN caucasico? por favor un poquito de seriedad... Que haplogrupos son originarios del caucaso?

Cuando he hablado yo de ADN caucásico ?? He dicho que los científicos dividen a los humanos en caucásicos basándose en medidas antropológicas físicas. Lo del ADN Autosomal me referia para determinar si alguien es por ejemplo Europeo o Norte-Africano, simplemente porque una mayoria de gente de una zona geografica determinada (por ejemplo Europa) presentan un patrón genético determinado, y al presentar alguien un determinado ADN autosmal significa que muy probablemente sea de una determinada zona donde compartan su mismo patrón de ADN autosomal, en eso se basa.

 

[Smertrius]

Smertrius:

You have no idea which universities I graduated from. How about Columbia and Brown? You think where you are studying is any more rigorous than these two institutions? I really doubt it is. Ask me what area my advanced degrees are in, if you don't know already. One thing is certain, I'm not a population geneticist, and don't pretend to be one.

Are YOU trying to make others feel persecuted? I certainly don't feel persecuted, since I'm perfectly comfortable with my heritage. However, I am sick of people who sit on a high horse, racially slander Iberians and try to deny them their true ethnicity. Most of these charlatans are cretinous intra-race racists who somehow feel threatened by the fact that Iberians, in reality, are far different than the laughable stereotype that is constantly projected. Obviously, you are not one of those but, in some ways, nearly as bad.

Let me ask you something, do YOU feel persecuted? Do you feel insecure about something?

And, please, don't tell me you are just answering the thread...

Of course, you can't imagine how much I feel persecuted as a French by the celticity of Spaniards and Portugueses...

I understand your concern about the stereotypes projected by some people but saying that Iberians are Celts will not change anything in their minds, they will just say that things dramatically changed after 711; so I don't think that I'm "working" in anyway for those intra-race racists.

 

[Smertrius]

S-116 is proto-Celtic.
The truth is, S28 is a very recently discovered subclade, very few people have been tested with it... By the way, the M-167 is a minoritary subclade of R1b in Iberia : http://mcewanjc.org/m167.htm

Another M167 and S28 map

 

[Reixach]

Seg�n los analisis de http://www.isogg.org/tree/ en Galicia el aporte centroeuropeo se puede determinar por el haplogrupo I2b de origen germanico, supuestamente suevo y el I1 de origen nordico y baltico, posiblemente visigodo, teniendo en Galicia una proporci�n total de 5 a 9-12% (hay porcentajes del haplogrupo I "generico" sin especificar mas). Geneticamente la influencia fue importante. En Asturias el aporte de origen nordico, visigodo, del I1 es del 4-8% (en Galicia el 3-6%), el mayor de toda la peninsula iberica, coherente con la historia tradicional en que los visigodos se concentraron en Asturias y a partir de ah� empezaron con la reconquista.