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It actually confirms my hypothesis, that there is no farming without farmer genes.I just skimmed the admixture analysis - Latvia_LN1 (early Corded Ware) does have substantial farmer admixture. Which leaves me wondering why the authors would chose that headline.
My earlier assumption was based on the dates of Corded Ware in Finland and Latvia.
Yes and you know what is so fascinating about the Iberian sample. It has absolutely zero signs of Steppic like admixture. Infact it is a very typical Anatolian_Farmer.All known R1a/b samples older than 6000 years, chronologically:
1) Villabruna, ca. 14180-13780 (avg. 13980) years ago - R1b
2) Karelia, ca. 8850-8000 (avg. 8425) years ago - R1a
3) Lokomotiv, ca. 8125-6025 (avg. 7075) years ago - R1a
4) Lokomotiv, ca. 8125-6025 (avg. 7075) years ago - R1a
5) Latvia, ca. 7800-7600 (avg. 7700) years ago - R1b
6) Samara, ca. 7650-7560 (avg. 7605) years ago - R1b
7) Iberia, ca. 7180-7060 (avg. 7120) years ago - R1b-V88
8) Latvia, ca. 7250-6800 (avg. 7025) years ago - R1b
9) Khvalynsk, ca. 7200-6000 (avg. 6600) years ago - R1b
10) Khvalynsk, ca. 7200-6000 (avg. 6600) years ago - R1a
11) Smolensk, around 6000 (avg. 6000) years ago - R1a
Latvia_LN1 does not have any "CHG admixture". He is simply a Yamnaya-descended person:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-Early-Europea?p=500908&viewfull=1#post500908
He is Corded Ware without any EEF. Autosomally identical as EMBA Steppe (such as Yamnaya).
Not in that context.
You were discussing the possibility that CHG people spread agriculture into Latvia. But there was no any migration of 100% CHG people into Latvia. Those who migrated were Steppe people, and therefore 50/50 EHG/CHG Yamna immigrants.
Also note that Latvian HG with R1b-P297 did not have any CHG. Those were Corded Ware with R1a who had it.
Latvian HG only had some ANE admixture, but no any CHG (it has just been discussed on Anthrogenica).
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That particular LN1 was a woman. But more Baltic Corded Ware samples are to be published soon.
And according to what I have heard, they are all going to be autosomally similar to LN1.
And they are going to have R1a haplogroup.
agricultural people (herders) like their CHG ancestors
The two statements contradict each other.
It actually confirms my hypothesis, that there is no farming without farmer genes.
CHG stands for Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer.
I thought that Latvia didn't 'arrive' in Corded Ware, because Latvian Corded Ware yields older dates than Central European Corded Ware. Latvia would have been the starting point of the Corded Ware expansion. See, for example: https://www.researchgate.net/public...and_early_husbandry_in_the_East_Baltic_region
I got excited because of the headline, but the actual data says that the 'autonomous transition' hypothesis is falsified beyond all reasonable doubt.
Edit: Though it's possible that the farming in early Corded Ware was more CHG than Anatolian Farmer mediated - look at those substantial CHG components in both early Corded Ware and the Karelian hunters.
M913021 | Rise00 | F999918 | I-L460 | M218547 | I0124 | F999924 | Ajvide 58, I-CTS772 | F999917 | I-L416 | M643041 | I0061 | |||||
Corded Estonia, | 4 kya | Loschbour, Luxembourg | 7 kya | Samara HG | 7.6 kya | Sweden | 5kya | Motala 12 Östergötland, Sweden | 7 kya | Karelia, OleniyOstrov N Russia | 5.25 kya | |||||
Run Time | 8.05 | Run time | 14.93 | Run time | 5.57 | Run time | 9.7 | Run time | 8.67 | Run time | 9.88 | |||||
S-Indian | - | S-Indian | - | S-Indian | - | S-Indian | - | S-Indian | - | S-Indian | - | |||||
Baloch | 14.27 | Baloch | - | Baloch | 14.33 | Baloch | - | Baloch | - | Baloch | 9.46 | |||||
Caucasian | - | Caucasian | - | Caucasian | - | Caucasian | - | Caucasian | - | Caucasian | - | |||||
NE-Euro | 59.09 | NE-Euro | 77.83 | NE-Euro | 75.62 | NE-Euro | 70.71 | NE-Euro | 90.24 | NE-Euro | 72.66 | |||||
SE-Asian | - | SE-Asian | 0.44 | SE-Asian | - | SE-Asian | 1.54 | SE-Asian | - | SE-Asian | - | |||||
Siberian | 0.8 | Siberian | - | Siberian | - | Siberian | 1.34 | Siberian | 0.07 | Siberian | - | |||||
NE-Asian | - | NE-Asian | - | NE-Asian | - | NE-Asian | - | NE-Asian | - | NE-Asian | - | |||||
Papuan | - | Papuan | 0.84 | Papuan | - | Papuan | - | Papuan | 0.57 | Papuan | - | |||||
American | - | American | - | American | 9.62 | American | 1.37 | American | 1.58 | American | 12.6 | |||||
Beringian | - | Beringian | - | Beringian | 0.15 | Beringian | - | Beringian | 0.68 | Beringian | 5.16 | |||||
Mediterranean | 25.26 | Mediterranean | 20.66 | Mediterranean | - | Mediterranean | 23.22 | Mediterranean | 6.83 | Mediterranean | - | |||||
SW-Asian | - | SW-Asian | - | SW-Asian | - | SW-Asian | - | SW-Asian | - | SW-Asian | - | |||||
San | - | San | - | San | - | San | - | San | - | San | - | |||||
E-African | - | E-African | - | E-African | - | E-African | - | E-African | - | E-African | - | |||||
Pygmy | - | Pygmy | - | Pygmy | - | Pygmy | 0.19 | Pygmy | - | Pygmy | 0.07 | |||||
W-African | 0.5 | W-African | 0.17 | W-African | 0.2 | W-African | 1.63 | W-African | - | W-African | - |
My bad I should have written CHG like, because it is unlikely that the CHG directly contributed to the Steppes since they are a mesolithic people and by mesolithic everyone was a H&G. However we know by fact that the descends of these CHG people became herders since we have herders from the Iranian Plateau and even Caucasus that are CHG like. And this is why Lazaridis goes rather with the Iran_CHL+additional CHG / EHG theory rather than the CHG/EHG one, because it makes historically and archeologically more sense. Or who else do you think brought them the Herding. Their Samara EHG ancestors certanly not.
And this is why I say we need Bronze Age and Neolithic samples from Caucasus too. Still waiting for Maykop samples to be published.
CW have EEF admixtures, except some of them like from Estonia lack it.I have to read it further, Angela, but for now the title seems correct to me.
If what Markoz says is rigth about CW originating in the Baltic, there is no EEF admixture.
But EEF itself becomes a very misleading term now.
No Siberian and NE Asian admixtures yet. EHG had American and Beringian admixtures.The tentative timeline for Latvia based on these samples looks like this:
Mesolithic: HGs nestled inbetween WHG and Scandinavian HGs
Middle Neolithic: EHG in the proper sense, complete with American & Siberian ancestry components and something Bedouin-like
Late Neolithic (Corded Ware): disappearance of the Siberian shades & Bedouin, CHG becomes main ancestral component. The remaining ancestry comes from WHG and the mysterious 'dark blue' component.
Eneolithic & EBA steppe come from varying mixtures of CHG and EHG, but they like the Karelians have those minor Eastern components as well as Bedouin. They also lack substantial admixture from the 'dark blue' component that peaks in Latvian Corded Ware and a single WHG.
I guess this would indicate that CHG bypassed much of the Pontic steppe and for some reason managed to arrive relatively undiluted in the Baltic region.
M643041 | I0061 | M218547 | I0124 | |
Karelia, OleniyOstrov N Russia | 5.25 kya | Samara HG | 7.6 kya | |
Run time | 9.88 | Run time | 5.57 | |
S-Indian | - | S-Indian | - | |
Baloch | 9.46 | Baloch | 14.33 | |
Caucasian | - | Caucasian | - | |
NE-Euro | 72.66 | NE-Euro | 75.62 | |
SE-Asian | - | SE-Asian | - | |
Siberian | - | Siberian | - | |
NE-Asian | - | NE-Asian | - | |
Papuan | - | Papuan | - | |
American | 12.6 | American | 9.62 | |
Beringian | 5.16 | Beringian | 0.15 | |
Mediterranean | - | Mediterranean | - | |
SW-Asian | - | SW-Asian | - | |
San | - | San | - | |
E-African | - | E-African | - | |
Pygmy | 0.07 | Pygmy | - | |
W-African | - | W-African | 0.2 |
You might be right.I'm talking about the Latvians. The authors explicitly state that they are much more related to WHG than to EHG. Looking at Fig. S4 it's obvious that SHG is more related to EHG. The Baltics were a WHG stronghold despite their eastern position.
Good job FH. We already knew that modern white is conglomeration of many alleles from many separate populations. It was a long process and culminated around Baltic Sea where these mutations were the most needed.@Tomenable,
I added the new Latvian and Ukrainian samples to my pigmentation spreadsheet.. I combined them with Sweden because Sweden, Latvia, Ukraine were a WHG and EHG mix to some extent and had similar pigmentation alleles.
Pre-Historic Pigmentation
The Latvian HGs have a mixture of derived/ancestral alleles in rs1426654 and rs16891982. More ancestral than derived. The two Ukrainians had rs1426654 derived/derived=2, rs16891982 had derived/derived=1, derived/ancestral=1.
You shouldn't be so excited to call them white anyways, white people have ancestry from each ancient European population sampled and each population except WHG had some light skin alleles and some dark skin alleles. I really doubt any of them can be called THE white people and there's no special badge of honor in calling them THE white people.
Nope. Not everybody can drive a truck, you know that, right? Some people are missing necessary genetic predispositions for driving. Coordination, attention, memory, obedience to traffic law, long attention span, and liking driving enough to take it as a job. You might even have all the skills but no natural excitement to driving, nobody is going to make you a driver. This is why h-gs don't do farming. They love hunting and they hate farming. Unless you standing close by with a whip or a gun they won't do it. Simple like that.What is "farmer genes" ??? Is there a specific gene associated with farming abilities?
Can you be a truck driver without truck driver genes?
Good job FH. We already knew that modern white is conglomeration of many alleles from many separate populations. It was a long process and culminated around Baltic Sea where these mutations were the most needed.
Think in statistical terms, don't generalize all Europeans.This is off topic so this discussion shouldn't go much further but why the Baltic sea? Europeans far away from the Baltic sea are basically as pale as Europeans surrounding the Baltic sea.
I know there are some who desperately want to believe it, but the idea that some pure CHG Mesolithic hunter-gatherers were the ones who mixed into the steppe Eneolithic is not very persuasive to me. We know it was already there by Kvalynsk, but it increased with time. Those people were most probably already herding domestic animals. Time will tell though.
From Iain Mathieson et al:
"The Samara_Eneolithic from Khvalynsk II (~5,200-4,000BCE) predates the Yamnaya by at least 1,000 years but had already begun admixingwith this population, although the individuals of this population appear to be heterogeneous(Fig. 1) between EHG and Yamnaya. Taken as a whole, we estimate that they have ~74%EHG and ~26% Armenian related ancestry."
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/10/016477.full.pdf
As I said above, this increased with time, with people even less likely to be some sort of fossil Caucasus hunter-gatherers.
Narva | Latvia | Zvejnieki [Burial 93; HG2] | M | 7791-7586 cal BP | 172,707,718 | R1b1a1a | P297; reported as R1b1b, using Karafet et al. 2008 tree | U2e1 | Jones 2017; additional info on Y-DNA from Sergey Malyshev | |
Latvia | Zvejnieki [Burial 121; HG3] | M | 7252-6802 cal BP | 37,749,963 | R1b1a1a | P297; reported as R1b1b, using Karafet et al. 2008 tree | U5a2d | Jones 2017; additional info on Y-DNA from Sergey Malyshev |
Russia | Sok River, Samara [I0124/SVP 44] | M | 5650-5555 BC | R1b1a | M343+, L278+, [P297 equivalent PF6513+], M478-, [M478 equivalent Y13872+, Y13866- (The presence of positive and negative markers in the M478 node can reflect an intermediate stage of its formation.)], M478-, M269- | U5a1d | C146T, C152T, C195T, A247G, A249d, 290-291d, T489C, A769G, A825t, A1018G, A2758G, C2885T, T3552a, T3594C, G4104A, T4312C, A4715G, G7146A, C7196a, T7256C, A7521G, T8468C, A8577G, G8584A, T8655C, A9545G, C10400T, T10664C, A10688G, C10810T, C10915T, A11605t, A12217G, G13105A, A13263G, G13276A, T13506C, T13650C, T14318C, T14783C, G15043A, G15301A, A15487t, A16129G, T16187C, G16230A, T16278C, T16298C, C16311T, T16325C, C16327T, C16519T, A8577G, A11605t, A12217G, T16189C! | Haak 2015; Sergey Malyshev; Mathieson 2015 |
Nope. Not everybody can drive a truck, you know that, right? Some people are missing necessary genetic predispositions for driving. Coordination, attention, memory, obedience to traffic law, long attention span, and liking driving enough to take it as a job. You might even have all the skills but no natural excitement to driving, nobody is going to make you a driver. This is why h-gs don't do farming. They love hunting and they hate farming. Unless you standing close by with a whip or a gun they won't do it. Simple like that.
On top of it, you know how it is when someone comes to your country and wants to change your culture. You are so ecstatic to embrace it, right?
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