Who were the Thracians?

[Garrick]

No, they are closer to Italians in the table.

To Calabrians closer than Egyptians in this table.

Someone can see genetic history of the Italians and distribution maps of Y-DNA haplogroups in Italy:
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

It is interesting that Arbreshe emigrated to Calabria (and Apulia). Can you write about it.

 

[Nobody1]

Arbereshe:

Adrian Fortescue - The Uniate Eastern Churches (1923)
It is difficult to fix the exact date of the first arrival of the Albanian colonists in these parts.
The first date I have found for certain, so far, is 1448. In that year Alphonsus I of Aragon, in return for services rendered by Albanian soldiers in his pay against the French, granted them lands in Sicily with a certain measure of autonomy under their Captains George and Basil Reres.*
In 1456 there was a great earthquake throughout Calabria and Apulia. After this the Neapolitan Government granted large districts of the country laid waste to Albanian colonists, in order that they might reclaim it.
When Scanderbeg had fought for Ferdinand I of Naples, he was rewarded by the grant of land at S Pietro in Galatina. He did not himself occupy his new estate; but his son and many of his countrymen came.
Other Albanians came in 1467 after Scanderbeg's death, many more during the Pontificate of Paul II (1468-1471); others, again, after the year 1478, when the Sultan finally subjected all Albania to his rule.
The town of Korone (Κορώνη) in the Peloponnesos had surrendered freely to the Venetians in 1204. Later many Albanians came to settle here (-Korone). In 1498 Bayazed II seized the town. In 1532 Charles II sent a fleet under Andrew Doria to retake it. The Christian Albanians rose against the Turks and helped the Imperial fleet. But soon after the Turks recaptured the place. Then, fearing their vengeance, the Albanians fled to Italy. There were more than 200 ships full of them; their bishop Benedict came too. So they arrived in the kingdom of Naples. The Government gave them grants of land and money. The Albanians of Korone spread throughout the kingdom. Some joined Greek refugees in the city of Naples, and there formed a community of the Byzantine rite; under Prince Thomas Palaiologos.
*These were the sons of Demetrio Reres. who had led the Albanian forces for Alphonsus. His diploma is printed by Rodota iii, 52-53.
The name Reres occurs constantly among the Albanians in Italy.


Boattini et al 2011 - Y-DNA Hg's
Within this genetic landscape, the Arbereshe are characterized by two peculiarities: (a) they are a clear outlier in the Italian genetic background, showing a strong genetic affinity with southern Balkans populations; and (b) they retain a high degree of genetic diversity.....These results support the hypothesis that the surname-chosen Arbereshe are representative of the Y-chromosome genetic variability of the Albanian founder population.

 

[FBS]

@Ike
Logic and intelligence stop working when the hatred takes over.

 

[Ike]

That's a well known fact, but it doesn't answer my question.
Especially when we're talking about history here, and some are claiming "Dardanian or Illyrian descent", I'd like to see some proofs.

 

[Garrick]

@Ike
Logic and intelligence stop working when the hatred takes over.

This is no political thread (politics topics are in European News and Hot Topics). We here are trying to grasp hard issues movements carriers of haplogroups in past, when didn't exist nations and state boundaries, and unfortunately no records. New researches us move forward a bit and highlight some of the unknown, but we needs a lot of studies, resources and time, until we get a more complete picture.

Arbereshe:

Adrian Fortescue - The Uniate Eastern Churches (1923)
It is difficult to fix the exact date of the first arrival of the Albanian colonists in these parts.
The first date I have found for certain, so far, is 1448. In that year Alphonsus I of Aragon, in return for services rendered by Albanian soldiers in his pay against the French, granted them lands in Sicily with a certain measure of autonomy under their Captains George and Basil Reres.*
In 1456 there was a great earthquake throughout Calabria and Apulia. After this the Neapolitan Government granted large districts of the country laid waste to Albanian colonists, in order that they might reclaim it.
When Scanderbeg had fought for Ferdinand I of Naples, he was rewarded by the grant of land at S Pietro in Galatina. He did not himself occupy his new estate; but his son and many of his countrymen came.
Other Albanians came in 1467 after Scanderbeg's death, many more during the Pontificate of Paul II (1468-1471); others, again, after the year 1478, when the Sultan finally subjected all Albania to his rule.
The town of Korone (Κορώνη) in the Peloponnesos had surrendered freely to the Venetians in 1204. Later many Albanians came to settle here (-Korone). In 1498 Bayazed II seized the town. In 1532 Charles II sent a fleet under Andrew Doria to retake it. The Christian Albanians rose against the Turks and helped the Imperial fleet. But soon after the Turks recaptured the place. Then, fearing their vengeance, the Albanians fled to Italy. There were more than 200 ships full of them; their bishop Benedict came too. So they arrived in the kingdom of Naples. The Government gave them grants of land and money. The Albanians of Korone spread throughout the kingdom. Some joined Greek refugees in the city of Naples, and there formed a community of the Byzantine rite; under Prince Thomas Palaiologos.
*These were the sons of Demetrio Reres. who had led the Albanian forces for Alphonsus. His diploma is printed by Rodota iii, 52-53.
The name Reres occurs constantly among the Albanians in Italy.


Boattini et al 2011 - Y-DNA Hg's
Within this genetic landscape, the Arbereshe are characterized by two peculiarities: (a) they are a clear outlier in the Italian genetic background, showing a strong genetic affinity with southern Balkans populations; and (b) they retain a high degree of genetic diversity.....These results support the hypothesis that the surname-chosen Arbereshe are representative of the Y-chromosome genetic variability of the Albanian founder population.

Thanks for exhaustive response.

For me it is interesting that Arbereshe have high I, if we assume that I1 is about 5%, it means that I2a2 is about 17%, it is much higher compared with Geg Albanians, according Pericic et al. Kosovo Albanians (Geg Albanians) have I2a2 2,65%.

It is surprising lack of J2 in Arbereshe. Geg Albanians have 23% J2 (Ferri et al.) and Tosk Albanians have 16,5% (Ferri et al.). I have no explanation for Arbereshe about the absence of J2. I would like to hear some opinion about this.

 

[MOESAN]

"The cis-Caspian, trans-Caucasian R-M269 population followed an early (late 4th millennium, early 3rd millennium?) expansion into Europe, probably together with J2 in the Balkans (Graeco-Phrygian, perhaps Thracian), and arriving in the form of Bell Beakers in Western Europe (Italo-Celtic), as well as a later (2nd-1st millennium BC?) expansion to the east (Tocharians) "
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/07/complex-y-chromosome-structure-in-east.html

all that is possible... but we have to explain the very big dicotomy between Y-R1b and Y-J2 in Western Europe (among Celts and Basques, by example), if these two HGs were arrived one together in S-E Europe...

 

[MOESAN]

OR: two "waves" of R1b-M269, one North Caspian, one Anatolian >> Balkans, along with Y-J2 from same geographical origin - the first ones developped very downstream SNPs around the Alps when the second ones, without big demography, did not go over the L23 SNP??? but as a whole, I prefer my first answer: no evident link between Y-R1b and Y-J2 (of any sort) bearer populations

 

[MOESAN]

we need more regional studies: 'Bulgarian', 'Romanian', 'Albanians' are terms covering variated regions where impacts of History were not always the same ones... the mountains and plains of Romania were not inhabited exactly by the same folks, even if they share nowaday the same "national" culture; the same for a lot of countries in Europe and elsewhere

 

[FBS]

This is no political thread (politics topics are in European News and Hot Topics).

Precisely. And the thread is about Thracinas, not Albanians nor Arbëresh who are much later etnonyms. So offenses like of Ikes that are not based in historical nor scientific evidence have no place in this thread especially when they have nothing to do with the Thracians.

 

[Ike]

I made no offense.
Luan is the one who started with political accusations in #97, and I asked for counter arguments.

 

[Garrick]

Precisely. And the thread is about Thracinas, not Albanians nor Arbëresh who are much later etnonyms. So offenses like of Ikes that are not based in historical nor scientific evidence have no place in this thread especially when they have nothing to do with the Thracians.

Y-DNA is an essential tool. Based on the results we are trying to reconstruct facts about peoples and movements. If we speak about Thracians, all Balkan people (and not only Balkan) are important. You can see that in this forum there are different opinions about of Thracian haplogroups. There is opinion their main haplogroup is E1b1b (E-V13) and maybe with J2, there is another opinion main Thracian haplogroups are I2a2 and R1a. We are trying to find out as much as possible, and each haplogroups studies, for this topic especially studies of Balkan people, are valuable to us.

 

[Garrick]

we need more regional studies: 'Bulgarian', 'Romanian', 'Albanians' are terms covering variated regions where impacts of History were not always the same ones... the mountains and plains of Romania were not inhabited exactly by the same folks, even if they share nowaday the same "national" culture; the same for a lot of countries in Europe and elsewhere

Yes, we need more studies for Balkan region (all countries and peoples). You can see that there are diametrically opposed opinions about Thracian haplogroups, one opinion is E1b1b (+J2), another opinion is I2a2 and R1a. Integrated opinion is mix all the above and possible some branch of R1b.

 

[Sile]

Y-DNA is an essential tool. Based on the results we are trying to reconstruct facts about peoples and movements. If we speak about Thracians, all Balkan people (and not only Balkan) are important. You can see that in this forum there are different opinions about of Thracian haplogroups. There is opinion their main haplogroup is E1b1b (E-V13) and maybe with J2, there is another opinion main Thracian haplogroups are I2a2 and R1a. We are trying to find out as much as possible, and each haplogroups studies, for this topic especially studies of Balkan people, are valuable to us.

since the link below , which is ONLY 6 months old, states the Albanians have only been in Albania from 1600 years ago, then clearly we need to find who where the original tribes in the area for the E1b1b that you comment about. They might be a mix of greek, epirote, macedonian and tualanti people.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

 

[FBS]

since the link below , which is ONLY 6 months old, states the Albanians have only been in Albania from 1600 years ago, then clearly we need to find who where the original tribes in the area for the E1b1b that you comment about. They might be a mix of greek, epirote, macedonian and tualanti people.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

No it says as follows, quote:
The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers (at least those represented in POPRES) are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one. Furthermore, our Greek and Macedonian samples share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. It is also interesting to note that the sampled Italians share nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other. The Albanian language is a Indo-European language without other close relatives [53] that persisted through periods when neighboring languages were strongly influenced by Latin or Greek, suggesting an intriguing link between linguistic and genealogical history in this case.

 

[Ike]

since the link below , which is ONLY 6 months old, states the Albanians have only been in Albania from 1600 years ago, then clearly we need to find who where the original tribes in the area for the E1b1b that you comment about. They might be a mix of greek, epirote, macedonian and tualanti people.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555

Same thinking here. I think Kosovars (with E-V13 majority) have nothing to do with Albanians.

 

[FBS]

Same thinking here. I think Kosovars (with E-V13 majority) have nothing to do with Albanians.

No, read above in my quoted text, it says the opposite for Albanians from Albania and Kosovo. Quite tightly related.

 

[Ike]

Of course they are related - similar genetics, culture, language, history. But correlation is higher in North Albania, and gets lower when you enter central and southern. That's where we have a prevalence of other haplogroups. If you exclude Kosovar's E-V13 from Albanian gene pool you get a nice J and R1 arrangement. It doesn't mean the theory is true. Future analysis will reveal more facts.

It would be helpful if we knew a bit more about history of Albanian language, or have more remnants/scripts of Dacian, Thracian, Illyrian. If E-V13 were the carries or current Albanian language, and if they came from Levant/Egypt direction 9 kya, how can it be IE language? I hear different opinions about similarities between Albanian and Berber, but they are not conclusive, and there is no reliable connection. So if we suppose that E-V13 spoke some North African language at that time, they must have lost it in favour of IE language they are talking now. So, who were the speakers of that language that E-V13 are talking today. Were those Thracians, Illyrians?

 

[Yaan]

There is not relation between Albanians and Berbers, some Serbs on Internet with no knowledge make this propaganda, they are as lost as the Muslim fundamentalists calling Slavic people slaves.
E-V13 can be IE speakers why, not, because it would crush the dreams of the R1b West European supremacists! Have u heard of mother language and mt DNA. How come now people that are not R1 speak IE, well same goes for back then.
The fact of the matter is E-V13, I1, I2b,I2a,G2a,N1c and majority J2 and E-M123 are in Europe long,long, long before R1, but some racist from Western Europe can not live with it

 

[Garrick]

There is not relation between Albanians and Berbers, some Serbs on Internet with no knowledge make this propaganda, they are as lost as the Muslim fundamentalists calling Slavic people slaves.
E-V13 can be IE speakers why, not, because it would crush the dreams of the R1b West European supremacists! Have u heard of mother language and mt DNA. How come now people that are not R1 speak IE, well same goes for back then.
The fact of the matter is E-V13, I1, I2b,I2a,G2a,N1c and majority J2 and E-M123 are in Europe long,long, long before R1, but some racist from Western Europe can not live with it

Albanian is placed as an Indo-European language. It's a branch by itself, sharing its branch with no other language. Questions is whether there are influences of Afro-Asiatic languages (Egyptian/Coptic, Berber, Cushitic, etc). Logic is that carriers of haplogroup E could not lose all words in their movements from north-east Africa, across the Middle east, to Balkans.

Of course, this is very complex issue, and in such subjects always appear problems of simplifying. So often Western Europeans and Balkans peoples (Serbs, Bulgarians, etc.) go by the logic of simplifying, and they does not mean anything bad. The facts is that E-M78 is family tree for subclade E-V13 (as subclades E-V12, E-V22, etc), and origin E-M78 is north-east Africa (probably Egypt).

You can see Albanian and Arbereshe linguists and researches find link between Albanian and some Afro-Asiatic languages. For example there is a book:

Giuseppe Catapano, Thot Parlava Albanese, Bardi Editore, Roma 1984.

He compared the Coptic (Egyptian) and another languages with Albanian.

You have more links in Albanian and Italian, this is one example:

http://eltonvarfi.blogspot.com/2009/07/thothermes-trimegisto_05.html

Albanians themselves investigating and it's not taboo. And why? There are Albanians who seek a conections with the Ancient Egyptians and love it.

And all it is right. Seeking the roots is one of the most interesting things for human beings, and it serves this wonderful forum. Again, problems occur in simplifying. But it's hard to avoid in threads and discussions in forums. It's hard for people in every message, reply, topic, to explain for a long time, and simplification always will be exist in Internet.

 

[adamo]

I had heard that the thracians where a group of red-headed men, my bet is on something more European such as I2 (and they where pale for that matter.) also their area of origin coincides with highs of I2, maybe even R1a.