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Maciamo
25-01-20, 12:28
The Antonio et al. (2019) paper on Ancient Rome (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708) was released 2 and a half months ago, so I am coming a bit late for the analysis, but I had been busy before.

Using the Dodecad K12b data provided by Jovialis (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39706-Ancient-Rome-Test-V1-0), I created a table of the 11 Iron Age samples from this study.



ID

Date
Y-DNA
Gedrosia
Siberia
NW African
SE Asia
AtlanticMed
North
Europe
South Asia
East
Africa
SW Asia
East
Asia
Caucasus
SSA


R1 (Protovillanovan)
Martinsicuro
930-839 BCE

5.02
1.78
1.33
0,00
35.08
26.46
0,00
0,00
5.43
0,00
24.50
0.4


R1015 (Villanovan)
Veio Grotta Gramiccia
900-800 BCE
-
1.56
0.19
2.85
0,00
47.15
21.66
0,00
0,00
5.46
0,00
20.85
0,00


R1016 (Latin)
Castel di Decima
900-700 BCE
R1b
3.86
0.98
1.53
0.19
47.23
20.37
1.43
0,00
3.31
0,00
21.10
0,00


R1021 (Latin)
Boville Ernica
700-600 BCE
R1b
2.11
0,00
1.96
0.6
47.70
24.04
0,00
0,00
1.33
0,00
22.26
0,00


R435 (Latin)
Palestrina Colombella
600-200 BCE
R1b
4.84
0.64
0.65
0,00
47.12
28.54
0.15
0,00
4.13
0,00
13.40
0.53


R437 (Latin)
Palestrina Selicata
400-200 BCE
R1b
6.45
0,00
3.03
0,00
33.19
11.94
0,00
0,00
11.63
0,00
33.74
0.02


R473 (Etruscan)
Civitavecchia
700-600 BCE
-
1,00
0,00
0.68
0.15
47.26
22.79
0,00
0.21
7.39
0.21
20.17
0.34


R474 (Etruscan)
Civitavecchia
700-600 BCE
J2b
7.18
0.17
2.38
0,00
39.08
25.74
0,00
0,00
5.98
0,00
18.84
0.66


R475 (Etruscan)
Civitavecchia
700-600 BCE
-
0,00
0,00
13.01
0,00
38.12
12.14
0.37
1.98
11.26
0,00
22.70
0.42


R850 (Greek)
Ardea
800-500 BCE
T1a
7.30
0,00
4.52
1,00
21.26
10.54
0,00
0.43
14.77
0,00
40.10
0,00


R851 (Latin)
Ardea
800-500 BCE
R1b
1.59
0,00
1.39
0,00
49.28
24.97
0,00
0.14
1.93
0,00
20.26
0.45



R437 from Palestrina Selicata appears to be an indigenous Campanian, possibly of (partial) Greek origin, that was assimilated by Latin tribes. Or someone with mixed ancestry. R850 is clearly an Aegean Greek immigrant (very similar to modern Cretans).

Analysing admixtures

What struck me at first is the presence of Mongoloid admixture in most samples (only R437, R475 and R851 lack it). This is mostly Siberian admixture, but there are also traces of East Asian and Southeast Asian. This alludes to a sort of ancient Altaic admixture. It peaks at 1.78% in the Protovillanovan individual, who is the oldest, and would be a relatively new arrival to Italy. Does that mean that the Proto-Italics possessed some kind of Siberian admixture, which spread throughout Italy and faded as they intermingled with locals? Nowadays it's so diluted as to be virtually undetectable among modern Italians (bar a few exceptions).

The second intriguing thing is the presence of Northwest African and Southwest Asian admixture in all samples. The combination of these two admixtures, combined with elevated Caucasus admixture, first made me think of the Carthaginians. Modern and Bronze Age Lebanese have high Southwest Asian and Caucasian admixture with some Gedrosian. But they also possess some Northwest African. This is surely a component that was originally Levantine and brought to Northwest Africa by the Phoenicians/Carthaginians - not actual Northwest African genes that travelled to the Near East. But why would all Iron Age Italians possess Levantine admixture, since the Phoenician did colonise the Italian peninsula (only parts of Sicily and Sardinia)?

I had a look at modern Greeks K12b admixtures. Most Greek have only traces of NW African admixture. But those from Crete (and presumably some other Aegean islands) possess 2.6% of it. They also have higher Southwest Asian admixture (14.5%) than the Greek average (10%). So could it be mixed Greek ancestry in all these samples? The Aegean-looking sample from Ardea (R850) has the most Southwest Asian (14.8%) and Northwest African (4.5%), not far from that of modern Cretans. Other samples, the proportion of Southwest Asian to Northwest African varies a lot though. Some samples have more NW African than SW Asian.

One odd case is the R475 Etruscan from Civitavecchia, displaying as much as 13% of NW African, with also considerable SW Asian (11%) and Caucasus (22.5%). As Civitavecchia is a coastal city that had trade links with North Africa in Etruscan times, I would think that this individual has mixed Carthaginian and Etruscan ancestry. This individual has also 2.5% of East Africa + Sub-Saharan Africa, and that would be more likely if that person had actual North African roots (Northwest African native mixed with Phoenician) blended with Etruscan.

Maciamo
25-01-20, 12:43
I have been thinking about the origins of the Etruscans. Seeing how similar the Etruscans are with the Latins or Villanovans, I imagined the following scenario.

R1b Italic tribes crossed the Alps from Central Europe and spread over the Italian peninsula, mixing with the locals. The new hybrid populations had to choose one of the two languages, either local or Italic. In some areas, presumably where indigenous people were slightly more numerous or better established politically (in fertile agricultural plains), the local Etruscan language remained dominant in the new hybrid population. In other areas, apparently the mountainous and hilly parts of the peninsula better suited to the more nomadic Indo-European lifestyle, Italic tribes became socially dominant and imposed their language on the locals.

In both cases, the new population was a hybrid of Italics and locals (Etruscans or related tribes), but in some region one language was chosen, while in others it was the other language.

Perhaps the merger of the two population was more gradual, with Italic women progressively marrying to neighbouring Etruscan tribes, while Etruscan women married into Italic tribes. That would explain why Latin samples were overwhelmingly R1b, while the only Etruscan Y-DNA so far was J2b.

Pax Augusta
25-01-20, 13:47
Maciamo, I would not take too literally the results of an old calculator whose components are based on modern samples and has been created before the discovery of the various ancestral components (EEF, WHG, CHG, EHG...). Also the EEF ancient samples from Germany, Austria and Hungary get NW African, SW Asian and Caucasus on K12b, and these components also remain in Bronze Age samples, traces of these components are also found in the Bell Beaker samples from Southern Europe. These components on K12b are not always the sign of recent admixing.


LBK, Stuttgart (Neolithic of Germany)




Gedrosia
-


Siberian
-


Northwest_African
3.82 Pct


Southeast_Asian
0.07 Pct


Atlantic_Med
54.93 Pct


North_European
0.12 Pct


South_Asian
-


East_African
-


Southwest_Asian
10.79 Pct


East_Asian
-


Caucasus
30.28 Pct


Sub_Saharan
-




NE1, Hungary (Neolithic of Hungary)




Gedrosia
-


Siberian
-


Northwest_African
2.79 Pct


Southeast_Asian
-


Atlantic_Med
49.89 Pct


North_European
4.69 Pct


South_Asian
-


East_African
-


Southwest_Asian
12.89 Pct


East_Asian
-


Caucasus
29.69 Pct


Sub_Saharan
-




Also the ANF from Barcin get both NW African and SW Asian and high Caucasus.

I0707 Anatolian Neolithic Barcin 6500-6200 BCE



Gedrosia
-


Siberian
-


Northwest_African
2.27 Pct


Southeast_Asian
-


Atlantic_Med
48.48 Pct


North_European
-


South_Asian
-


East_African
-


Southwest_Asian
12.16 Pct


East_Asian
-


Caucasus
37.05 Pct


Sub_Saharan
-




I0709 Anatolian Neolithic Barcin H2-M282 6500-6200 BCE






Gedrosia
-


Siberian
-


Northwest_African
1.60 Pct


Southeast_Asian
-


Atlantic_Med
52.11 Pct


North_European
-


South_Asian
-


East_African
-


Southwest_Asian
13.31 Pct


East_Asian
-


Caucasus
32.85 Pct


Sub_Saharan
0.13 Pct













The presence of non completely native people between Latins and Etruscans is not so strange. The study itself assumes that they are partly of foreign origin. Also because the study chose to analyze some necropolises, particularly in the Etruscan case, which were located in commercial outposts. The necropolis of Civitavecchia "La Mattonara" is on the sea, it was a commercial outpost in particular with Sardinia. It is through the Phoenician colonies of Sardinia that trade between Etruscans and Phoenicians mainly takes place. Just as we know that the Latins had also their orientalizing phase thanks mainly to contacts with Campania and in Latium vetus there were foreigners. We still do not know if the oldest inscription found in Latium vetus (Osteria dell'Osa) is written in Greek or Latin.

Clearly only subsequent studies can tell us how common these foreign presences were among Latins and Etruscans.

real expert
25-01-20, 16:56
The ancient Icelandic, Anglo-Saxon gladiators, Iron age Irish, Mycenaen, and the WHG/ la Brana sample, etc. score also Subsaharan African, etc. on gedmatch. According to Davidski is not a real admixture but a pseudo-African signal due to post mortem damage of the DNA. So I don‘t really trust the calculatorS like gedmatch or K12b to be accurate when it comes to determining the admixture of ancient people. Besides Neanderthals score on gedmatch around 90% and on K13 around 80% Subsaharan African. Just saying.

real expert
25-01-20, 17:05
I have been thinking about the origins of the Etruscans. Seeing how similar the Etruscans are with the Latins or Villanovans, I imagined the following scenario.

R1b Italic tribes crossed the Alps from Central Europe and spread over the Italian peninsula, mixing with the locals. The new hybrid populations had to choose one of the two languages, either local or Italic. In some areas, presumably where indigenous people were slightly more numerous or better established politically (in fertile agricultural plains), the local Etruscan language remained dominant in the new hybrid population. In other areas, apparently the mountainous and hilly parts of the peninsula better suited to the more nomadic Indo-European lifestyle, Italic tribes became socially dominant and imposed their language on the locals.

In both cases, the new population was a hybrid of Italics and locals (Etruscans or related tribes), but in some region one language was chosen, while in others it was the other language.

Perhaps the merger of the two population was more gradual, with Italic women progressively marrying to neighbouring Etruscan tribes, while Etruscan women married into Italic tribes. That would explain why Latin samples were overwhelmingly R1b, while the only Etruscan Y-DNA so far was J2b.


We have to wait for the other paper that also tested Etruscans to get some more insight concerning the Etruscans. According to some leaks some Etruscan samples were R1b and one even I1. None of the Etruscan samples showed North African admixture like the Etruscan outlier in the Moots study.

bicicleur
25-01-20, 17:40
We have to wait for the other paper that also tested Etruscans to get some more insight concerning the Etruscans. According to some leaks some Etruscan samples were R1b and one even I1. None of the Etruscan samples showed North African admixture like the Etruscan outlier in the Moots study.

which other paper?

Angela
25-01-20, 18:04
From the paper:

"Although we were able to model eight of the 11 individuals as two-way mixtures of Copper Age central Italians and a Steppe-related population (~24 to 38%) using qpAdm, this model was rejected for the other three individuals (p < 0.001; table S16). Instead, two individuals from Latin sites (R437 and R850) can be modeled as a mixture between local people and an ancient Near Eastern population (best approximated by Bronze Age Armenian or Iron Age Anatolian; tables S17 and S18). An Etruscan individual (R475) carries significant African ancestry identified by f-statistics (|Z-score|>3; fig. S2, 3)."

The R437 sample has some degree of such ancestry, and R850 about half.

It should be kept in mind that these are very early periods, so we are seeing that by the Iron Age Latins were absorbing some "Iran Neo" ancestry, although, `as the study makes clear, there was already some Iran Neo like ancestry already in Italy in the Neolithic.

This is all reflected in the relevant PCAs in the paper.

As for the "identity" of these samples, there is no question. They were members of local tribes.

https://i.imgur.com/bfTsUI7.png

https://i.imgur.com/6n7D6tB.png

torzio
25-01-20, 21:34
R850 and Ardea, the Rutuli people

Some say he was cretan others cypriot ..............latest a Duanian from Foggia or from Greek Argos .....................no ones knows

from site
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?target=en&inContent=true&q=rutuli&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0064


RU´TULI

Eth. RU (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=RU&la=la&can=ru0)´TULI (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=TULI&la=la&can=tuli0&prior=RU) (Eth. Ῥούτουλοι (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*%28rou%2Ftouloi&la=greek&can=*%28rou%2Ftouloi0&prior=TULI)), a people of ancient Italy, who, according to a tradition generally received in later times, were settled at a very early period in a part of Latium, adjoining the sea-coast, their capital city being Ardea. The prominent part that they and their king Turnus bear in the legendary history of Aeneas and the Trojan settlement, especially in the form in which this has been worked up by Virgil, has given great celebrity to their name, but they appear to have been, in fact, even according to these very traditions, a small and unimportant people. Their king Turnus himself is represented as dependent on Latinus; and it is certain that in the historical period Ardea was one of the cities of the Latin League (Dionys. A. R. 5.61), while the name of the Rutuli had become merged in that of the Latin people. Not long before this indeed Livy represents the Rutuli as a still existing people, and the arms of Tarquinius Superbus as directed against them when he proceeded to attack Ardea, just before his expulsion. (Liv. 1.56 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Liv. 1.56&lang=original), 57 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Liv. 1.57&lang=original).) According to this narrative Ardea was not taken, but we learn from much better authority (the treaty between Rome and Carthage preserved by Polybius, 3.22 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plb. 3.22&lang=original)) that it had fallen under the power of the Romans before the close of the monarchy, and it is possible that the extinction of the Rutuli as an independent people may date from this period. The only other mention of the Rutuli which can be called historical is that their name is found in the list given by Cato (ap. Priscian. 4.4. p. 629) of the cities that took part in the foundation of the celebrated temple of Diana at Aricia, a list in all probability founded upon some ancient record; and it is remarkable that they here figure as distinct from the Ardeates. There were some obscure traditions in antiquity that represented Ardea as founded by a colony from Argos [ARDEA (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0064:id=ardea-geo)], and these are regarded by Niebuhr as tending to prove that the Rutuli were a Pelasgic race. (Nieb. vol. i. p. 44, vol. ii. p. 21.) Schwegler, on the other hand considers them as connected with the Etruscans, and probably a relic of the period when that people had extended their dominion throughout Latium and Campania. This theory finds some support in the name of Turnus, which may probably be connected with Tyrrhenus, as well as in the union which the legend represents as subsisting between Turnus and the Etruscan king Mezentius. (Schwegler, Röm. Gesch. vol. i. pp. 330, 331.) But the whole subject is so mixed up with fable and poetical invention, that it is impossible to feel confidence in any such conjectures.



http://real.mtak.hu/44351/1/068.2015.55.1-4.26.pdf

Angela
25-01-20, 22:02
R850 and Ardea, the Rutuli people

Some say he was cretan others cypriot ..............latest a Duanian from Foggia or from Greek Argos .....................no ones knows

RU´TULI

Eth. RU (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=RU&la=la&can=ru0)´TULI (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=TULI&la=la&can=tuli0&prior=RU) (Eth. Ῥούτουλοι (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=*%28rou%2Ftouloi&la=greek&can=*%28rou%2Ftouloi0&prior=TULI)), a people of ancient Italy, who, according to a tradition generally received in later times, were settled at a very early period in a part of Latium, adjoining the sea-coast, their capital city being Ardea. The prominent part that they and their king Turnus bear in the legendary history of Aeneas and the Trojan settlement, especially in the form in which this has been worked up by Virgil, has given great celebrity to their name, but they appear to have been, in fact, even according to these very traditions, a small and unimportant people. Their king Turnus himself is represented as dependent on Latinus; and it is certain that in the historical period Ardea was one of the cities of the Latin League (Dionys. A. R. 5.61), while the name of the Rutuli had become merged in that of the Latin people. Not long before this indeed Livy represents the Rutuli as a still existing people, and the arms of Tarquinius Superbus as directed against them when he proceeded to attack Ardea, just before his expulsion. (Liv. 1.56 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Liv. 1.56&lang=original), 57 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Liv. 1.57&lang=original).) According to this narrative Ardea was not taken, but we learn from much better authority (the treaty between Rome and Carthage preserved by Polybius, 3.22 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plb. 3.22&lang=original)) that it had fallen under the power of the Romans before the close of the monarchy, and it is possible that the extinction of the Rutuli as an independent people may date from this period. The only other mention of the Rutuli which can be called historical is that their name is found in the list given by Cato (ap. Priscian. 4.4. p. 629) of the cities that took part in the foundation of the celebrated temple of Diana at Aricia, a list in all probability founded upon some ancient record; and it is remarkable that they here figure as distinct from the Ardeates. There were some obscure traditions in antiquity that represented Ardea as founded by a colony from Argos [ARDEA (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0064:id=ardea-geo)], and these are regarded by Niebuhr as tending to prove that the Rutuli were a Pelasgic race. (Nieb. vol. i. p. 44, vol. ii. p. 21.) Schwegler, on the other hand considers them as connected with the Etruscans, and probably a relic of the period when that people had extended their dominion throughout Latium and Campania. This theory finds some support in the name of Turnus, which may probably be connected with Tyrrhenus, as well as in the union which the legend represents as subsisting between Turnus and the Etruscan king Mezentius. (Schwegler, Röm. Gesch. vol. i. pp. 330, 331.) But the whole subject is so mixed up with fable and poetical invention, that it is impossible to feel confidence in any such conjectures.



http://real.mtak.hu/44351/1/068.2015.55.1-4.26.pdf

Why don't you stick to the archaeology and leave ancient myths out of it, as well as the "some" and "others" from other sites who are doubtless racists just like the Sizzi you seem to like to follow.

torzio
25-01-20, 22:18
Why don't you stick to the archaeology and leave ancient myths out of it, as well as the "some" and "others" from other sites who are doubtless racists just like the Sizzi you seem to like to follow.

Why do you follow Sizzi .............I cannot even read or understand what he writes ,only lately I knew about him, how long have you followed him? ............I only follow the spaniard, https://indo-european.eu/ ...........but, you can follow whoever you like be it sizzi, or apricity ( whatever they are called , more racists ) and the others you always mention.....I do not know why you keep mentioning apricity ..............do you also follow Eurogenes ?

johen
25-01-20, 22:22
What struck me at first is the presence of Mongoloid admixture in most samples (only R437, R475 and R851 lack it). This is mostly Siberian admixture, but there are also traces of East Asian and Southeast Asian. This alludes to a sort of ancient Altaic admixture. It peaks at 1.78% in the Protovillanovan individual, who is the oldest, and would be a relatively new arrival to Italy. Does that mean that the Proto-Italics possessed some kind of Siberian admixture, which spread throughout Italy and faded as they intermingled with locals? Nowadays it's so diluted as to be virtually undetectable among modern Italians (bar a few exceptions).


Is there any possibility the admixture might come from mycenaean or cimmerian? I think the mycenaean clearly have altai culture, especially seima turbino.

Angela
25-01-20, 23:15
Why do you follow Sizzi .............I cannot even read or understand what he writes ,only lately I knew about him, how long have you followed him? ............I only follow the spaniard, https://indo-european.eu/ ...........but, you can follow whoever you like be it sizzi, or apricity ( whatever they are called , more racists ) and the others you always mention.....I do not know why you keep mentioning apricity ..............do you also follow Eurogenes ?

I've never followed him. I certainly never quoted him.

The only mention I ever made of him is that I heard here on the site that the Dodecad "updated" Italian samples were published by him and that he had a reputation as a racist and perhaps we shouldn't use his samples.

You're the one who quoted him; as you're the only Lega Nord voter here to my knowledge, the party always supported by North Italian racists. So, don't throw stones when you live in a glass house, buddy.

Oh, you're also the self proclaimed expert on Italian issues who can't freaking read Italian and so can't even read archaeological papers by Italian specialists.

Please....

torzio
25-01-20, 23:33
I've never followed him. I certainly never quoted him.

The only mention I ever made of him is that I heard here on the site that the Dodecad "updated" Italian samples were published by him and that he had a reputation as a racist and perhaps we shouldn't use his samples.

You're the one who quoted him; as you're the only Lega Nord voter here to my knowledge, the party always supported by North Italian racists. So, don't throw stones when you live in a glass house, buddy.

Oh, you're also the self proclaimed expert on Italian issues who can't freaking read Italian and so can't even read archaeological papers by Italian specialists.

Please....

You need to cease your snide remarks.... as i said, i looked at this sizzi site you mentioned and there is no dodecad stuff on it, so you made another false claim....so what maciano placed on site has nothing to do with sizzi.....but you seemed to not like the results from maciano

Salento
26-01-20, 00:26
We have to wait for the other paper that also tested Etruscans to get some more insight concerning the Etruscans. According to some leaks some Etruscan samples were R1b and one even I1. None of the Etruscan samples showed North African admixture like the Etruscan outlier in the Moots study.

I would like to know what these leaks are, what paper are you talking about, and when is it coming out?

Palermo Trapani
26-01-20, 00:36
I followed what Maciamo did with the Where do Medieval Romans come from? for the Iron Age. R475 really has no good fits. The closest is Corsica with a Distance of 16. I ran Dodecad12B modern Populations and Jovialis Roman Sample and then used the Roman Sample (Iron) Age as Target. Most of the Iron Age romans are highly correlated with other Iron Age. R437 is close to Campania, Abruzzo, Sicily and Calabria. Maybe Maciamo and do the complete analsyis and post it here. I posted R475's top 25. Nothing under 5, and not even 10.



Distance to:
R475__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia


13.49398147
France_Corsica


13.55643021
R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


14.67900882
R80___Imperial_Era__Viale_Rossini_Necropolis


15.06058432
R120__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


15.25677882
R118__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


15.31375525
R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


15.75102854
R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria


15.93669351
R52___Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna


16.11976737
R36___Late_Antiquity_Celio


16.39674358
R111__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


16.43507037
Italy_Marche


16.75359066
Italy_Romagna


16.82284756
R113__Imperial_Era__Via_Paisiello_Necropolis


16.89979681
Italy_Liguria


17.08167439
R437__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Selicata


17.09125303
Italy_Tuscany


17.17303508
Italy_Lazio


17.30316156
R45___Imperial_Era__Isola_Sacra_Necropolis


17.37391723
R835__Imperial_Era__Civitanova_Marche


17.39525223
R35___Late_Antiquity_Celio


17.55145863
R47___Imperial_Era__Centocelle_Necropolis


17.59474353
R122__Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia


17.67040778
Italy_Emilia


17.67228904
R107__Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi


17.86512804
R1015_Iron_Age_____Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia

Palermo Trapani
26-01-20, 00:49
I would like to know what these leaks are, what paper are you talking about, and when is it coming out?

Lets assume there were some R1 in the Estruscans. There are several potential explanations. Some R1 Men (Latin Speakers) married Estruscan women, etc, etc. So what exactly would this mean. The Kurgan-Steppe Hypothesis if you follow the routes shows an initial 3 prong split, 2 heading straight North and 1 movement of peoples that seem to mover further South then back up into what looks like Modern Hungary, then a group split and headed to what is modern NE Italy and entered Italy. Another group headed further North and then split into 2 other groups. So what peoples did those Pre-Latins run across on there way to Italy. If the Steppe migration from what I have read is modeled as 57% EHG and 45% CHG, is it possible that the further North you go with the Steppe migration, the more EHG you get, whereas to the South, you get a higher amount of CHG. Raveane et al (2019) paper does show a significant CHG component in Italy in most regions. The one Northern Sample the included in the paper (Figure 2) shows almost 70-75% EHG and very little CHG. So again, so what if R1B shows up in some Estruscan samples, that does not change the fact that all of Italy from North to South is characterized by significant Neolithic ancestry from Anatolia.

Angela
26-01-20, 02:38
I fail to understand why anyone would imagine that an "Etruscan" person with from, say, 25% to 50% North African (R475), would be particularly close to any modern Italian samples whatsoever. Way too much mental garbage picked up from other sites, perhaps.

Surely it's more fruitful to look at the "typical" Etruscan samples.



Distance to:
R473__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia


5.78160877
North_Italian


8.38279786
N_Italian


8.87318996
Baleares


11.14162017
Galicia


12.35530251
Murcia


12.82465984
Extremadura


13.07071153
Spaniards


13.12059831
TSI30


13.36231642
Andalucia


13.40997763
Castilla_Y_Leon


13.81376849
Portuguese


14.40643953
Cataluna


14.67480494
Spanish


15.05738689
Tuscan


15.22069315
Cantabria


15.23212067
Castilla_La_Mancha


15.39107858
Valencia


16.25906824
Aragon


16.36995724
Canarias


16.94150229
O_Italian


18.67250920
C_Italian


20.18145931
French


20.79388853
French


26.21925819
Greek


26.97901777
Sicilian





Distance to:
R474__Iron_Age_____Civitavecchia


5.40006481
N_Italian


8.09843195
North_Italian


12.08194107
Baleares


12.08642627
O_Italian


12.12151393
TSI30


12.76096000
Galicia


13.43684859
Extremadura


14.08415422
Portuguese


14.15437388
Tuscan


15.65916026
Murcia


16.08680515
Castilla_Y_Leon


16.41527642
Cataluna


16.49286816
French


16.51572887
Spaniards


16.75588255
French


16.81038964
C_Italian


17.02408000
Canarias


17.06224194
Andalucia


17.42449138
Spanish


18.93191221
Castilla_La_Mancha


19.04844613
Cantabria


19.33954239
Valencia


20.46880309
Aragon


20.79103894
Romanians


21.47814936
Bulgarians



https://i.imgur.com/sRwtJOC.png

That wasn't so hard. Not rocket science after all.

Or how about the only upper class Latin tribal samples:

https://i.imgur.com/rkB8gNB.png



Distance to:
R1016_Iron_Age_____Castel_di_Decima


5.15760603
North_Italian


7.87889586
N_Italian


8.24389471
Baleares


11.32371847
Andalucia


11.42629424
Galicia


11.95574339
Murcia


12.07648128
Extremadura


12.25715301
TSI30


12.59229129
Spaniards


12.99406788
Castilla_Y_Leon


13.45805707
Portuguese


14.10107088
Tuscan


14.26729827
Cataluna


14.36500609
Spanish


14.53080865
Valencia


14.78261817
Castilla_La_Mancha


14.93880183
Canarias


14.97183356
Cantabria


15.63196725
Aragon


16.57335814
O_Italian


17.87135417
C_Italian


21.26400715
French


21.89108266
French


26.17368526
Greek


26.26928054
Sicilian



Or, to go back to R437:



Distance to:
R437__Iron_Age_____Palestrina_Selicata


4.59913035
S_Italian_Sicilian


4.83577295
Sicilian


6.62618291
C_Italian


10.16248001
Ashkenazi


10.49031935
Tuscan


10.64005169
Ashkenazy_Jews


11.26179382
Greek


11.40172794
Sephardic_Jews


11.72748055
TSI30


11.99572424
O_Italian


12.92229856
Morocco_Jews


19.05535620
N_Italian


19.48090090
North_Italian


22.31406731
Cypriots


25.38137112
Turkish


25.88563308
Bulgarian


25.93160234
Bulgarians


27.15757721
Romanians


27.42830655
Lebanese


28.16090197
Turks


28.45628226
Baleares


29.54386569
Canarias


29.68206361
Syrians


30.21483080
Murcia


30.27705732
Galicia





To reiterate, this sample is from a Latin Tribe.
https://i.imgur.com/PseIjdX.png

The fact that it picked up some Anatolia Bronze or Copper Age ancestry, perhaps filtering up from Southern Italy, doesn't make the sample less Latin or Roman. These ancient people were infinitely less "racist" than some moderns, it appears.

hrvclv
26-01-20, 11:18
A little experiment. The fits are not exceptional, but not ridiculous either - particularly the Prenestini's.

https://i.imgur.com/recXulR.png

hrvclv
26-01-20, 12:17
Add in some Mycenaean, and the Etruscan fits improve perceptibly. Levant Bronze has very little impact.
Boville slightly impacted. Prenestini and Ardea not affected.


https://i.imgur.com/qcUcHS8.png

brick
26-01-20, 13:41
Add in some Mycenaean, and the Etruscan fits improve perceptibly. Levant Bronze has very little impact.
Boville slightly impacted. Prenestini and Ardea not affected.
https://i.imgur.com/qcUcHS8.png


These models with ancient populations that are not ancestral components do not make much sense. Improving the fit does not imply that the model is accurate. The average GRC_Mycenaean is still very EEF (68.6%) and this greatly influences the result.

https://i.imgur.com/i7KaCLf.png

https://i.imgur.com/oTgw6ay.png


https://i.imgur.com/G46zWmZ.png

hrvclv
26-01-20, 14:01
These models with ancient populations that are not ancestral components do not make much sense. Improving the fit does not imply that the model is accurate. The average GRC_Mycenaean is still very EEF (68.6%) and this greatly influences the result.

Indeed. All the references in my model are meant as approximate proxies.
They are not meant to give us the ancestral mix, but to suggest an itinerary.
Sorry, I took it for granted that people here had a fairly clear idea what the ancestral mix of those references was.
Looks like I overestimated my readers' popgen culture.

kingjohn
26-01-20, 16:48
maybe r850 ardea outlier
represent the autosomal profile of the greeks of magna graecia
some of those came from Aegean islands or coastal Anatolia
and not from mainland greece
later he might move north and mingle with the latin tribes

Maciamo
26-01-20, 17:12
Maciamo, I would not take too literally the results of an old calculator whose components are based on modern samples and has been created before the discovery of the various ancestral components (EEF, WHG, CHG, EHG...). Also the EEF ancient samples from Germany, Austria and Hungary get NW African, SW Asian and Caucasus on K12b, and these components also remain in Bronze Age samples, traces of these components are also found in the Bell Beaker samples from Southern Europe. These components on K12b are not always the sign of recent admixing.

I agree that Dodecad K12b is not the perfect tool to analyse ancient populations. But it does a better job for Iron Age and Medieval ones than for Neolithic ones.

Before seeing Angela's post, I hadn't noticed that the paper already mentioned that R437 and R850 could be modelled as a mixture between local people and an ancient Near Eastern population (Bronze Age Armenian or Iron Age Anatolian). This confirms that they may have come through Greece, and particularly Crete, as the Minoans had substantially Bronze Age Armenian-like Kura-Araxes admixture.

As for the 13% Northwest African component in the R475 Etruscan from Civitavecchia, it is also corroborated by the comparison other ancient samples, namely the 12% of Iberomaurusian match, as Brick posted above. So Dodecad K12b isn't that bad.


The presence of non completely native people between Latins and Etruscans is not so strange. The study itself assumes that they are partly of foreign origin. Also because the study chose to analyze some necropolises, particularly in the Etruscan case, which were located in commercial outposts. The necropolis of Civitavecchia "La Mattonara" is on the sea, it was a commercial outpost in particular with Sardinia. It is through the Phoenician colonies of Sardinia that trade between Etruscans and Phoenicians mainly takes place. Just as we know that the Latins had also their orientalizing phase thanks mainly to contacts with Campania and in Latium vetus there were foreigners. We still do not know if the oldest inscription found in Latium vetus (Osteria dell'Osa) is written in Greek or Latin.

Absolutely.

real expert
27-01-20, 17:01
I agree that Dodecad K12b is not the perfect tool to analyse ancient populations. But it does a better job for Iron Age and Medieval ones than for Neolithic ones..........



As for the 13% Northwest African component in the R475 Etruscan from Civitavecchia, it is also corroborated by the comparison other ancient samples, namely the 12% of Iberomaurusian match, as Brick posted above. So Dodecad K12b isn't that bad.

Once again the Iron age Italics/Latins don't have any real North African admixture. That's just noise from post-mortem damage.The Etruscan female, on the contrary, does have real North African admixture, because she's scored non- negligible 13% North African mix. Any detected low-level admixture in ancient people is very likely noise and not real.

real expert
27-01-20, 17:04
I would like to know what these leaks are, what paper are you talking about, and when is it coming out?


I‘m not sure who worked on the second paper on ancient Italians but it‘s probably the Reichlab. However, there was a leaked PCA from last year with 5 Etruscans. These Etruscans appeared not to have any Phoenician or North African admixture. According to the leaked information if genuine, Etruscan hp R1b and I were detected. From what I recall the Etruscan DNA with the I1 was low coverage.

Maciamo
27-01-20, 17:45
Once again the Iron age Italics/Latins don't have any real North African admixture. That's just noise from post-mortem damage.The Etruscan female, on the contrary, does have real North African admixture, because she's scored non- negligible 13% North African mix. Any detected low-level admixture in ancient people is very likely noise and not real.


The NW African admixture isn't noise. As I explained above, that's Near Eastern admixture that is also found in Northwest Africa and was misattributed in the calculator. That's why it shows up in Neolithic European farmer samples, in Greeks and even at low frequency in modern West Europeans (at least in those who also have a bit of Southwest Asian admixture).

real expert
27-01-20, 20:31
The NW African admixture isn't noise. As I explained above, that's Near Eastern admixture that is also found in Northwest Africa and was misattributed in the calculator. That's why it shows up in Neolithic European farmer samples, in Greeks and even at low frequency in modern West Europeans (at least in those who also have a bit of Southwest Asian admixture).

bottom line there is no real North African admixture in Iron age Italics/Latins. Have a good day.

Salento
27-01-20, 22:59
I‘m not sure who worked on the second paper on ancient Italians but it‘s probably the Reichlab. However, there was a leaked PCA from last year with 5 Etruscans. These Etruscans appeared not to have any Phoenician or North African admixture. According to the leaked information if genuine, Etruscan hp R1b and I were detected. From what I recall the Etruscan DNA with the I1 was low coverage.



Because of uncertainty of provenance, a while ago we stopped quoting from the selective leaks.

Ygorcs
28-01-20, 00:11
I don't know how helpful this may be, but I've been trying to decompose the Chalcolithic-to-Bronze Age DNA admixtures indicated in models for Ardea Latini (outlier), Roman Latini and Etruscan (excluding the outlier sample), then searching for the most parsimonious comination simpler model derived from the combination of those admixtures in different ways (usually the most plausible combinations on a geographical and historical basis). Of course this is all completely hypothetical, but I honestly think some interesting if flawed hints may be present here if we look close enough at what the data may be trying to tell us. So, the best and most credible (historically speaking) combinations and then simplifications that I could find indicate this:

Ardea Latini (outlier):
~72% Modern DNA: Syrian Jew or Cypriot-like West Asian / Ancient DNA: Anatolia (Kaman-Kalehöyük) or Medieval Lebanese-like West Asian
~28% Modern DNA: North Italian (Bergamo) or Spanish Castillian-like South European / Ancient DNA: Bronze Age Hungary or Central Italian (Boville Ernica IA)-like South European

Rome Latini (IA):
~70% Modern DNA: South French-like / Ancient DNA: Iberia East (IA)-like
~30% Ancient DNA: Minoan (Lassithi)-like

Etruscan (IA):
29.8% Central Italy Chalcolithic (Grotta Continenza)
29.8% Early-Middle Bronze Age England (Bell Beaker-related)
22.2% Bronze Age Minoan (Lassithi)
18.1%Early Bronze Age Unetice (Poland)


Of course don't take the geographical locations above too literally, because it is totally possible that e.g. some location in Austria or in Hungary in the Bronze Age was "BA Iberian-like", but this is just some food for thought, and it also gives us some hints about what could've possibly been the genetic cline of pre-IE Italy, maybe more Chalcolithic Italian-like (with less CHG/Iranian) more to the north and more Minoan-like more to the south.

Now, if you want to see the complete preferred admixtures among all the G25 Chalcolithic and Bronze Age samples and think about them on your own, here they are:

[1] "distance%=1.8989 / distance=0.018989"


ITA_Rome_Latini_IA

England_LBA 24.90
Bell_Beaker_FRA_lowSteppe 23.50
Bell_Beaker_Iberia_C 17.50
GRC_Minoan_Lassithi 14.80
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin 4.90
HUN_Hunyadihalom_MCHA 4.30
BGR_C 3.25
DEU_Karsdorf_LN 3.20
GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res 2.80
Anatolia_Isparta_EBA 0.85

*******************************

[1] "distance%=0.8959 / distance=0.008959"


ITA_Etruscan

ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA 26.65
DEU_Alberstedt_LN 18.40
BGR_C 15.80
Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL 11.00
England_EMBA 7.35
Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res 6.50
BGR_Varna_En3 4.05
DEU_Karsdorf_LN 3.75
HRV_EBA 2.60
Corded_Ware_CZE_o 2.25
DNK_BA 1.55
HRV_Vucedol 0.10

Angela
28-01-20, 01:15
My first question would be why you find the analysis provided by the authors unsatisfactory? Certainly made sense to me, especially as their models have the benefit of using populations much more proximate in time and space, and they don't mix modern and ancient samples, which I think is always a bad idea.

https://i.imgur.com/OmXLLk4.png

https://i.imgur.com/G67I6Me.png

https://i.imgur.com/XcttQqn.png
Now, as to how and from where this "additional" ancestry from the Near East got into some members of Latin tribes I think we're going to have to wait and see the make-up of Bronze and Iron Age Southern Italians, and, hopefully, some Greeks from the Classical Era as well. It may well be that this type of ancestry was, as I have maintained for almost seven years now, perhaps already present there even before the time of the Greek colonization of the first millennium BC.

If we want to play around with possibilities, I would think the Sicilian Beaker would be a good place to start, since there's no genetic "Beaker" in them at all, apparently.

Ygorcs
28-01-20, 05:04
My first question would be why you find the analysis provided by the authors unsatisfactory? Certainly made sense to me, especially as their models have the benefit of using populations much more proximate in time and space, and they don't mix modern and ancient samples, which I think is always a bad idea.

Is your post directed to me? If it is, I wonder why you'd talk about mixing modern and ancient samples, because I did not do that, quite on the contrary, I carefully avoided using any samples that are too far removed chronologically (and presumably also in terms of shared drift) from the Iron Age samples under discussion here, that is, no Mesolithic nor Neolithic samples, and no modern samples, too. Only Copper Age and Bronze Age (up to LBA or at most EIA) samples were used to model the possibilities of genetic origins of the IA Central Italian samples. The percentages of the simulated simpler sources of ancestry above were described by closest modern reference population and closest ancient reference population.



If we want to play around with possibilities, I would think the Sicilian Beaker would be a good place to start, since there's no genetic "Beaker" in them at all, apparently.

The Sicilian BB sample is kind of weird because there is no other aDNA sample that is really close to it genetically. The closest is the Mycenaean (0.056) and "Greek" Empuries 2 (0.0605) but the differences are still big enough to suggest to me that we're probably still missing the more proximate source of this population, and that it does not seem to have been "Greek" exactly (not even in a pre-Greek Minoan-like sense), just a common history of population movements.

The Sicilian BB sample also seems to be a bad fit for the EEF+Extra "eastern" ancestry in the IA Italics and Etruscans. A much more direct similarity to Minoans, Bronze Age Anatolians and Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age Bulgarians is always remarkable in all the models I've tried. Or maybe the Sicilian BB sample shows a local trend, but it came from a heavily drifted population? Modeling it on the basis of all Mesolithic and Neolithic DNA samples, even the best model still has a genetic distance that is still quite high (>4%), but at least it's clear it was already an "eastern-shifted" (with CHG/Iranian affinities) EEF sample.

[1] "distance%=4.298 / distance=0.04298"


Beaker_Sicily_no_steppe

Anatolia_Barcin_C 24.45
BGR_N 23.40
HUN_Hunyadihalom_MCHA 16.70
UKR_N_o 12.65
GEO_CHG 7.05
GRC_N 6.95
ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N_o 5.95
HUN_ALPc_Szatmar_MN 2.85



What seems certain is that an Aegean-like genetic makeup was already in South Italy in the Bronze Age.

Ygorcs
28-01-20, 06:02
Is there any possibility the admixture might come from mycenaean or cimmerian? I think the mycenaean clearly have altai culture, especially seima turbino.

Is there anything you don't think have an Altaic origin usually via Seima-Turbino, from Western Europe to Mesoamerica? It's always a seemingly common theme in your posts. ;-)

Angela
28-01-20, 06:13
Well, maybe I wouldn't have been confused if you had stuck to the ancient samples labeled by name and number and time period instead of making some sort of equivalence to modern populations.

I still don't understand why you would think this is more informative than the analysis done in the paper in terms of the admixture which created the "outlier" or atypical samples.

It's clear that in terms of the two "outliers", the samples are a mixture of locals and varying amounts of more "eastern" ancestry, with everything pointing to Anatolia or the Caucasus. Had there been all this "Levantine" ancestry in R850, for example, the modeling which I looked at in the Supplement would have found it.

The "other" samples are a mixture of locals and steppe admixed groups from Central Europe. If your interest is whether those Central European groups were more "western" or "eastern", then I would say wait for more samples from Bronze Age Northern Italy.

I've rarely seen all this amateur modeling accurately tell the story.

It's your time, of course.

Ygorcs
28-01-20, 07:55
Well, maybe I wouldn't have been confused if you had stuck to the ancient samples labeled by name and number and time period instead of making some sort of equivalence to modern populations.

Well, I did include the names of the ancient samples, e.g. here: "~28% Modern DNA: North Italian (Bergamo) or Spanish Castillian-like South European / Ancient DNA: Bronze Age Hungary or Central Italian (Boville Ernica IA)-like South European". Sorry if the layout of my text wasn't clear.


I still don't understand why you would think this is more informative than the analysis done in the paper in terms of the admixture which created the "outlier" or atypical samples.

It's clear that in terms of the two "outliers", the samples are a mixture of locals and varying amounts of more "eastern" ancestry, with everything pointing to Anatolia or the Caucasus. Had there been all this "Levantine" ancestry in R850, for example, the modeling which I looked at in the Supplement would have found it.

The "other" samples are a mixture of locals and steppe admixed groups from Central Europe. If your interest is whether those Central European groups were more "western" or "eastern", then I would say wait for more samples from Bronze Age Northern Italy.

I've rarely seen all this amateur modeling accurately tell the story.

It's your time, of course.

In my opinion that's basically because what those models you printed in your previous post are the best two-way mixture models. But are two-way mixtures really the most plausible scenario for these individuals' genetic history? I'm not sure... Honestly I don't think the best explanation for local outliers in Iron Age Italy is that a miraculously unmixed Chalcolithic Italian population mixed with a steppe-admixed population right from Iron Age Anatolia (which also happens to be most likely a descendant of a Cimmerian/Scythian immigrant, not a typical Anatolian, because the sample has some East Asian ancestry alongside steppe ancestry, so how likely is that?) or straight from Late Bronze Age Armenia? And that mix would've created a culturally Italic indvidual?

Hmm, I'm not sure that works when you consider other things besides only hypothetical genetic fits... I'll go with my amateur model just for now until I find a more historically convincing model. I for one think it's much more parsimonious (geographically, historically, economically etc.) that what happened there was a model like mine, with an already mixed Boville Ernica (IA)-like people - clearly already Italic - mixing with a Cypriot-like MLBA Anatolia (Kalman-Kalehöyük)-like people.

By the way, the Anatolia IA and the Armenia LBA samples also have quite a bit of BA Levantine ancestry, so the Levantine affinities are definitely there in RM50 (Ardea outlier), though of course that does not mean it came from the Levant. My bet would rather be Cyprus or Central-Southwestern Anatolia. We'll see in further studies with more samples and more specific, proximate reference populations.

Maciamo
28-01-20, 16:06
Thanks for your analysis, Ygorcs. Very interesting.

I also noticed that Iron-age Latins appear to be closest to Southeast French and North Italians.

I agree that the original Italic tribes would have been very Celtic-like as they share common roots in the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures. The Urnfield culture spread to northern Italy, but also Southeast France and Catalonia, which may be why, with the shared ancestry, many Iron Age Latin samples score high similarities with southern France and Catalonia in addition to northern Italy.

Hallstatt and La Tène Celts from around the Alps later spread to Belgium, France, Iberia and Britain, so it isn't surprising to find similarities between Bronze/Iron Age Iberia, Gaul and Britain and Iron Age central and northern Italy (including Etruscans).

Like Angela said, the people living in Italy prior to the Italic invasions probably possessed some Near Eastern Kura-Araxes-like (Bronze Age Armenia/Anatolia/Levant) admixture. So when Villanovans and Italics mixed with them that gave us the hybrid individuals we witness in Iron Age Latium.

I would think that Iron Age South Italians would be a blend of that Kura-Araxes-like people with genetically similar Greek colonists. That's why imperial, medieval and modern South Italians are so close to the Greeks. The original South Italians were already quite Greek-like.

Angela
28-01-20, 16:11
Thanks for your analysis, Ygorcs. Very interesting.

I also noticed that Iron-age Latins appear to be closest to Southeast French and North Italians.

I agree that the original Italic tribes would have been very Celtic-like as they share common roots in the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures. The Urnfield culture spread to northern Italy, but also Southeast France and Catalonia, which may be why, with the shared ancestry, many Iron Age Latin samples score high similarities with southern France and Catalonia in addition to northern Italy.

Hallstatt and La Tène Celts from around the Alps later spread to Belgium, France, Iberia and Britain, so it isn't surprising to find similarities between Bronze/Iron Age Iberia, Gaul and Britain and Iron Age central and northern Italy (including Etruscans).

Like Angela said, the people living in Italy prior to the Italic invasions probably possessed some Near Eastern Kura-Araxes-like (Bronze Age Armenia/Anatolia/Levant) admixture. So when Villanovans and Italics mixed with them that gave us the hybrid individuals we witness in Iron Age Latium.

I would think that Iron Age South Italians would be a blend of that Kura-Araxes-like people with genetically similar Greek colonists. That's why imperial, medieval and modern South Italians are so close to the Greeks. The original South Italians were already quite Greek-like.

The ancient dna coming from the Reich Lab will hopefully clarify matters, but as of now that also seems to me to be the likeliest scenario.

Jovialis
28-01-20, 20:35
https://i.imgur.com/TAHumvD.png

Here is a modeling of myself using coordinates I've composed.

I've excluded samples from beyond the Iron age.


R850_Iron_Age_Ardea,7.30,0,4.52,1.08,21.26,10.54,0 ,0.43,14.77,0,40.10,0
R851_Iron_Age_Ardea,1.59,0,1.39,0,49.28,24.97,0,0. 14,1.93,0,20.26,0.45
R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella,4.84,0.64,0.65 ,0,47.12,28.54,0.15,0,4.13,0,13.40,0.53
R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata,6.45,0,3.03,0,33 .19,11.94,0,0,11.63,0,33.74,0.02
R475_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,0,0,13.01,0,38.12,12.1 4,0.37,1.98,11.26,0,22.70,0.42
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,7.18,0.17,2.38,0,39.08 ,25.74,0,0,5.98,0,18.84,0.66
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,1.01,0,0.68,0.15,47.26 ,22.79,0,0.21,7.39,0.21,20.17,0.34
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia,1.56,0.19,2.8 5,0,47.15,21.66,0,0,5.46,0,20.85,0
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro,5.02,1.78 ,1.33,0,35.08,26.46,0,0,5.43,0,24.50,0.40
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima,3.86,0.98,1.53,0.1 9,47.23,20.37,1.43,0,3.31,0,21.10,0
R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica,2.11,0,1.96,0.60,47. 70,24.04,0,0,1.33,0,22.26,0
R2_Neolithic_Grotta_Continenza,0,0,3.98,0,54.75,0, 0,0,11.90,0,29.37,0
R8_Neolithic_Grotta_Continenza,0,0,2.83,0,53.23,0, 0,0,13.82,0.25,29.87,0
R9_Neolithic_Grotta_Continenza,0,0,3.27,0,50.85,0, 0,0,13.25,0,32.63,0
R6_Neolithic_Grotta_Continenza,0,0,5.17,0,66.71,11 .16,0,0.32,7.34,0.20,9.11,0
R3_Neolithic_Grotta_Continenza,0,0,4.22,0.05,52.70 ,0,0,0,11.29,0,31.68,0.06
R10_Neolithic_Grotta_Continenza,0,0,3.50,0,53.49,0 ,0,0,13.65,0,29.36,0
R16_Neolithic_Ripabianca_di_Monterado,0,0,2.95,0,5 8.11,1.77,0,0,9.21,0,27.95,0
R17_Neolithic_Ripabianca_di_Monterado,0,0,4.12,0,5 0.89,3.18,0,0,13.16,0,28.66,0
R19_Neolithic_Ripabianca_di_Monterado,0,0,3.88,0,5 6.14,0.65,0,0,10.10,0,29.22,0
R18_Neolithic_Ripabianca_di_Monterado,0,0,3.76,0,5 2.08,0,0,0.13,9.55,0,34.48,0
R4_Chalcolithic_Grotta_Continenza,0,0,2.77,0.12,60 .45,3.99,0,0,10.54,0.02,21.81,0.32
R5_Chalcolithic_Grotta_Continenza,0,0,2.97,0,63.17 ,3.07,0,0,10.39,0,20.40,0
R1014_Chalcolithic_Monte_San_Biagio,0,0,4.04,0,62. 82,4.57,0,0,10.06,0,18.52,0
R11_Mesolithic_Grotta_Continenza,0,0,0,0.61,34.46, 64.51,0,0,0,0,0,0.42
R15_Mesolithic_Grotta_Continenza,0,0,0,0.14,34.33, 64.73,0,0,0,0,0,0.79
I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave,0,0,2 .55,1.31,44.77,0,0,0,12.74,0,36.69,1.95
I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete,0.49,0,3.07,0,37.80,0.67,0,0,13.01,0,4 4.93,0.03
I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete,0,0,1.28,0.51,37.14,0,0,0,15.36,0,45.7 1,0
I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete,0,0,3.39,0.38,35.55,0,0,0,13.26,0,47.4 3,0
I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete,0.41,0,4.34,0,39.06,0,0,0,12.70,0,43.4 9,0
I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete,1.52,0,5.68,0,37.33,0,0,0,16.14,0,39.2 5,0.08
I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis,4. 14,0,1.89,0,36.48,4.77,0,0,8.08,1.19,43.45,0
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete,6.11,0,2.47,0,40.07 ,15.84,0,0,9.79,0.87,24.86,0
I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete,0,0,0,0,40.48,0,0,0,4.75,0,54.78,0
I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete,3.72,0.51,3.62,0,53.24,0,0,0,14.12,2.88,21.92 ,0
I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete,0,0,6.66,0,43.44,0,0,0,11.86,0,37.93,0
I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete,1.10,0,0,0,43.10,0,0,0,17.55,0,38.25,0
I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete,4.59,0,0,0,33.89,0,0,0,19.71,0,41.08,0.73
I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese,0,0,3.52,1.43,38.53,7.73,0,0.65,13.96,0,34.1 9,0
I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese,1.33,1.22,3.40,0,40.19,9.10,0.52,0,7.58,0 .48,33.22,2.96
I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese,2.87,0,2.57,0,37.48,8.67,0,0.36,10.29,0,37.5 2,0.24
I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta,6.79,0,1.92,1.07,27.17,4 .07,0,0,14.65,0,42.98,1.35
I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta,9.21,0,0.11,0.47,27.71,4 .33,0,0.81,12.84,0,44.53,0
I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta,9.16,0.07,1.74,0.67,24.7 7,1.32,0,0,14.88,0,45.56,1.81
ASH2-3_Iron_Age1,4.96,0,12.41,0,10.20,0,4.20,0,1.89,0,6 6.34,0
ASH008_Iron_Age2,10.84,0,4.00,0,11.39,0,0,0.63,29. 23,0,43.90,0
ASH029_Late_Bronze_Age,8.31,0,9.61,0,12.28,6.19,0, 0,27.92,0,35.69,0
ASH033_Late_Bronze_Age,5.83,0,4.07,0,10.30,3.87,0, 0,28.76,0,47.17,0
ASH034_Late_Bronze_Age,10.82,0,3.64,0.66,14.01,0,0 ,0.84,25.02,0,45.01,0
ASH066_Iron_Age1,9.21,0,7.83,0,15.39,0,5.06,0.07,2 2.99,0.97,37.59,0.90
ASH067_Iron_Age1,9.18,0,3.02,0,23.86,2.30,0,0,19.3 1,0,42.33,0
ASH068_Iron_Age1,0,0,0,1.65,39.53,8.59,0,0.65,14.6 1,0,34.97,0
ASH087_Iron_Age2,5.64,1.37,3.88,0,12.66,0,0,2.67,3 2.15,0,41.63,0
ASH135_Iron_Age2,5.14,0,17.24,0.39,6.20,6.72,0,3.3 5,27.59,0,33.18,0.18
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy,5.34,0,0,0, 47.45,28.85,0.64,0,3.59,1.22,12.27,0.65
I2477_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy,0,0,6.01,0. 21,60.29,7.43,0,0.07,7.60,0.08,18.30,0
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy,0,1.31,0,0, 43.62,20.47,0,0,8.75,0,25.64,0.20
I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily,0,0,10.64,0,41.31,0 .42,0,0,9.55,0,38.08,0
I1072_Natufian,0,0,24.90,0,14.16,0,0,6.27,43.78,0, 10.88,0
AfontovaGora3_Russia,23.68,16.94,0,0,0,54.64,3.29, 0,0,0,0,1.45
BerryAuBac_Mesolithic_France,0,1.85,0,0,28.82,67.7 0,0,0,0,0,0,1.63
Bockstein_Mesolithic_Germany,0,0,0,0.67,25.22,74.1 1,0,0,0,0,0,0
Brillenhohle_Magdalenian_Germany,0,0,0,5.65,33.07, 28.32,20.64,0,0,0,0,12.31
Burkhardtshohle_Magdalenian_Germany,5.51,6.42,0,3. 94,22.93,33.58,18.00,0,6.95,0,0,2.66
Cioclovina1_Romania,10.77,4.36,3.36,0,14.01,38.47, 6.85,16.21,0,5.26,0,0.70
Continenza_Mesolithic_Italy,0,0,0,0,32.41,62.98,0, 0,0,0,0,4.61
ElMiron_Magdalenian_Spain,0,1.03,0,7.12,32.40,48.8 1,7.24,0.45,0,0,0,2.96
Falkenstein_Mesolithic_Germany,0,0,0,0,32.37,57.17 ,6.37,1.03,0,0,0,3.07
BAJ001_Baja_PPNB,0,0,12.94,0,16.87,0,0,3.01,40.47, 0,26.71,0
KFH2_KfarHaHoresh_PPNB,0,0,10.93,0,32.28,0,0,3.45, 25.77,0,27.48,0
ZBC_Pinarbasi_Epipalaeolithic,0,0,3.31,0.74,54.04, 2.60,0,0,11.01,0,28.30,0
ZHAG_Boncuklu_Aceramic,0,0,4.14,0,51.61,1.73,0,0,9 .84,0,32.49,0.18
ZHAJ_Boncuklu_Aceramic,0,0,1.85,0,51.83,3.78,0,0,9 .79,0.15,32.60,0
ZHJ_Boncuklu_Aceramic,0,0,2.60,1.06,52.28,3.43,0,0 .29,7.07,0,33.28,0
ZKO_Boncuklu_Aceramic,0,0,4.12,0,52.24,2.39,0,0,10 .69,0.26,30.31,0
ZMOJ_Boncuklu_Aceramic,0,0,4.27,0,50.17,2.88,0.16, 0,10.23,0.63,31.67,0
ANI152_Varna,0,0,0,7.78,44.92,3.01,0,0,11.36,0,32. 93,0
ANI153_Varna,2.13,0,0,0,51.89,5.96,5.65,3.03,10.35 ,0,20.99,0
ANI159_ANI181_Varna,0,0,3.07,0,44.93,10.49,0,0,12. 13,0,29.38,0
ANI160_Varna_Outlier,0,0,0,0,52.83,10.79,0,0,10.03 ,0,26.35,0
ANI163_Varna_Outlier,8.64,0,2.63,0,29.14,44.17,0.6 2,0,0.66,0,13.52,0.02
BerryAuBac_WHG,0,1.85,0,0,28.82,67.70,0,0,0,0,0,1. 63
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge,0,0,0,0,45.69,16.17,0,0,9. 24,1.84,27.06,0
Bul4_Yamnaya_Bulgaria,13.70,0,0,0.39,21.45,36.70,0 .52,0,4.57,0,21.63,1.04
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge,0,0,2.20,0,40.23,19.89,0,0, 12.69,0,24.99,0
Bul8_Balkans_BronzeAge,10.29,0,0,0,46.67,31.49,0,0 ,3.15,0,0,8.41
I0633_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,3.48,0,48.68,0,0,0,12. 28,0,35.57,0
I0634_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,3.04,0,51.34,0,0,0,13. 43,0.25,31.76,0.17
I0676_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,4.22,0,51.96,0,0,0,11. 72,0,32.09,0
I0679_Krepost_Neolithic,4.98,0,2.66,0.27,34.26,1.1 6,0,0,13.05,0,43.56,0.06
I0698_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,4.76,0,52.43,0,0,0,13. 38,0,29.43,0
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,1.22,0.90,48.64,14.14, 0,0,6.76,0,28.32,0.02
I0785_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.23,0,49.57,0,0,0, 17.01,0,30.19,0
I1109_Malak_Preslavets,0,0.07,2.03,0,50.22,7.11,0, 0,12.90,0.10,27.56,0
I1113_Malak_Preslavets,0,0,0.20,0,45.55,29.58,0,0, 7.27,0,16.75,0.66
I1131_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,2.38,0.10,55.06,0,0,0, 12.85,0,29.57,0.04
I1295_Malak_Preslavets,0,0,3.14,0,49.84,12.28,0,0, 6.83,0.03,27.49,0.39
I1296_Malak_Preslavets,0,0,7.53,0,56.78,8.14,2.34, 1.97,5.09,0,17.29,0.87
I1297_Malak_Preslavets,0,0,0,0,52.70,25.39,0,0,8.0 5,0,13.87,0
I1298_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,5.68,1.17,60.20,1.94,0 ,0,5.84,0,25.18,0
I1378_Ukraine_Neolithic,0,3.29,0,0,13.84,80.25,1.4 9,0,0,0,0,1.13
I1732_Ukraine_Neolithic,0,3.69,0,0.70,11.75,81.69, 0,0,0,0,0,2.17
I1733_Ukraine_Mesolithic,3.27,5.95,0,0,3.40,84.65, 1.72,0,0,0,0,1.01
I1734_Ukraine_Mesolithic,0,0,0,3.52,15.94,79.32,0. 74,0,0,0,0,0.48
I1736_Ukraine_Neolithic,0.06,3.99,0,0.60,13.73,79. 64,0.56,0,0,0,0,1.43
I1737_Ukraine_Mesolithic,0.99,6.76,0.30,0,3.76,84. 77,0,0.47,0,0,0,2.95
I1738_Ukraine_Neolithic,0,2.86,0,0.81,11.84,80.73, 1.99,0,0,0,0,1.76
I1763_Ukraine_Mesolithic,1.08,6.19,0,0,6.22,82.54, 2.87,0,0,0,0,1.09
I1819_Ukraine_Mesolithic,0.57,6.34,0,0,6.59,82.83, 1.27,0,0,0,0,2.40
I1875_WHG,0,0,0,0.40,29.90,68.92,0,0,0,0,0,0.78
I1917_Yamnaya_Ukraine_outlier,25.57,2.46,0,0,8.35, 36.23,0,0,0,0,26.10,1.29
I1926_Trypillia,0,0,2.41,0,54.57,16.20,0,0,9.41,0, 17.41,0
I2105_Yamnaya_Ukraine,25.51,2.91,0,0,2.31,59.02,1. 42,0.63,0,0,7.57,0.64
I2110_Trypillia,0,0,3.57,0.44,54.23,16.16,0,1.34,6 .95,0,20.31,0
I2111_Trypillia,0,0,5.24,0,46.15,18.81,0,0,12.04,0 ,17.76,0
I2158_WHG,0,0.46,1.21,28.80,69.54,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
I2163_Balkans_BronzeAge,21.63,1.00,0,1.01,17.80,51 .39,1.00,0,0,0,5.18,0.99
I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge,4.00,0,2.29,0,31.35,34.24, 0.17,0,4.66,0,22.50,0.79
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge,0,0.24,3.96,0.15,44.81,16. 75,0,0,8.23,0,25.87,0
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge,0,0.13,4.71,0,41.53,21.46, 0,0,8.26,0,23.91,0
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier,1.19,0,0,0,41.7 9,37.57,0,0,4.43,0.31,14.71,0
I2215_Malak_Preslavets,0,1.10,4.90,0,46.06,26.49,0 ,0.33,5.15,0,14.83,1.15
I2216_Malak_Preslavets,0,0,3.02,0,51.29,1.02,0,0,1 1.44,0,33.22,0
I2318_Peloponnese_Neolithic,0,0,1.09,0,44.62,0,0,0 ,13.77,0,40.52,0
I2403_Globular_Amphora,0,0.83,2.31,0,59.88,25.84,0 ,0,6.36,0,4.78,0
I2405_Globular_Amphora,0,0,0,0,69.86,17.08,0,0,4.8 1,0,8.25,0
I2423_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.23,0,48.97,5.31,0 ,0,13.48,0,28.88,0.13
I2424_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.73,0,45.99,6.95,0 ,0,13.64,0,29.69,0
I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,4.44,0,54.61,8.79,0 ,0,6.31,0,25.84,0
I2426_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.32,0,47.06,8.21,0 ,0,21.64,0,19.77,0
I2427_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.93,0,44.78,4.58,0 ,0,14.21,0,32.50,0
I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,2.70,0,47.75,8.28,0 ,0,12.82,0,28.45,0
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,4.01,0,48.30,9.01,0 ,0,10.16,0,28.52,0
I2433_Globular_Amphora,0,0,4.98,0,61.34,19.23,0,0, 5.45,0,9.00,0
I2434_Globular_Amphora,0,0,0.42,0,64.12,19.13,0,0, 7.08,0,9.25,0
I2440_Globular_Amphora,0,0,1.32,0,58.65,19.93,0,0, 7.59,0,11.71,0.80
I2441_Globular_Amphora,0,0,3.56,0,61.46,18.19,0,0, 7.23,0.06,9.34,0.16
I2509_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,6.02,0,47.70,1.62,0 ,0,12.45,0,32.20,0
I2510_Balkans_BronzeAge,0,0,2.52,0,51.52,1.22,0,0, 13.30,0,31.44,0
I2519_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.96,0.24,45.47,0.3 9,0,0,14.22,0,35.72,0
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge,0,0,3.13,0.78,43.29,22.62, 0.71,0,9.26,0.28,19.92,0
I2521_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,5.12,0,47.12,0,0,0,13. 49,0.10,34.16,0
I2526_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,4.07,0,51.63,0,0,0,11. 52,0,32.78,0
I2532_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,2.40,0,50.58,0,0,0,12. 65,0.10,34.28,0
I2533_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,3.27,0,52.14,0,0,0,12. 35,0.08,32.16,0
I2534_Romania_HG,0,2.14,0,0,18.04,78.83,0,0,0,0,0, 0.99
I2792_Vucedol,0,0,0.78,0,56.22,0.49,0,0,11.23,0,31 .28,0
I3141_Yamnaya_Ukraine,24.88,3.51,0,0,2.65,64.42,2. 26,0,0,0,2.26,0
I3151_Trypillia,0,0,0.33,0,49.59,21.98,5.24,0,0,0, 22.85,0
I3433_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,5.80,0,52.00,0,0,0,13. 92,0.10,28.19,0
I3498_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,6.69,0,45.25,0,0,0,13. 99,0,34.07,0
I3708_Peloponnese_Neolithic,0,0,4.40,0,44.20,0,0,0 ,15.81,0,35.60,0
I3709_Peloponnese_Neolithic,0,0,3.87,0.15,40.64,0, 0,0,13.33,0,41.69,0.32
I3712_Ukraine_Neolithic,0,0,0,0.59,11.20,81.21,4.8 9,0,0,0,0,2.11
I3714_Ukraine_Neolithic,0.58,7.70,0,0,9.81,81.91,0 ,0,0,0,0,0
I3716_Ukraine_Neolithic,0,2.29,0,1.33,11.76,84.40, 0.23,0,0,0,0,0
I3717_Ukraine_Neolithic,0.85,4.42,0,0,14.88,76.09, 3.24,0,0,0,0,0.51
I3718_Ukraine_Neolithic,0,3.64,0,0.45,13.20,80.43, 1.27,0,0,0,0,1.01
I3719_Ukraine_Neolithic_outlier,0,0,3.76,0,49.10,0 ,0,0,12.09,0,35.05,0
I3879_Malak_Preslavets,0,0,9.28,0,52.94,0,0,0,17.3 0,0,20.48,0
I3948_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,4.61,0,51.17,0,0,0,13. 65,0,30.57,0
I4081_Iron_Gates_HG,0,0.34,0,1.44,23.83,74.34,0,0, 0,0,0,0.05
I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,2.60,0,49.80,9.81,0 ,0.10,13.17,0.19,24.12,0.21
I4089_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.55,0,48.23,8.00,0 ,0,14.75,0,25.46,0
I4110_Ukraine_Eneolithic,5.97,0,0.50,1.19,31.48,56 .13,2.20,0,0,0,1.85,0.69
I4111_Ukraine_Neolithic,0,0,0,4.67,16.96,76.50,1.4 8,0,0,0,0,0.39
I4112_Ukraine_Neolithic,0,0,0,0,3.80,90.66,0,0,0,4 .16,0,1.38
I4114_Ukraine_Neolithic,0,2.67,0,0.56,9.61,84.68,1 .07,0,0,0,0,1.40
I4167_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,0,0,59.00,0,0,0,10.63, 2.65,26.89,0.83
I4168_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,1.41,0,54.81,1.57,0,0, 13.72,0,28.48,0
I4175_Vucedol,19.97,0.27,0,0,23.77,43.21,0,1.53,4. 51,0,6.74,0
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge,4.65,0,0.65,0,38.24,27.11, 0,0,5.98,0,23.37,0
I4435_Latvia_MN,8.38,9.91,0,0,0,80.09,1.19,0,0,0,0 ,0.44
I4436_Latvia_MN,1.18,6.59,0,0,5.70,82.95,3.13,0,0, 0,0,0.45
I4437_Latvia_MN,0,2.47,0,0.01,19.03,77.81,0.36,0,0 ,0,0,0.31

bicicleur
28-01-20, 21:16
Thanks for your analysis, Ygorcs. Very interesting.
I also noticed that Iron-age Latins appear to be closest to Southeast French and North Italians.
I agree that the original Italic tribes would have been very Celtic-like as they share common roots in the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures. The Urnfield culture spread to northern Italy, but also Southeast France and Catalonia, which may be why, with the shared ancestry, many Iron Age Latin samples score high similarities with southern France and Catalonia in addition to northern Italy.
Hallstatt and La Tène Celts from around the Alps later spread to Belgium, France, Iberia and Britain, so it isn't surprising to find similarities between Bronze/Iron Age Iberia, Gaul and Britain and Iron Age central and northern Italy (including Etruscans).
Like Angela said, the people living in Italy prior to the Italic invasions probably possessed some Near Eastern Kura-Araxes-like (Bronze Age Armenia/Anatolia/Levant) admixture. So when Villanovans and Italics mixed with them that gave us the hybrid individuals we witness in Iron Age Latium.
I would think that Iron Age South Italians would be a blend of that Kura-Araxes-like people with genetically similar Greek colonists. That's why imperial, medieval and modern South Italians are so close to the Greeks. The original South Italians were already quite Greek-like.

where would that Kura-Araxes have come from?
from Myceneans and Greeks maybe?

there is a paper about the western Medittaranean (Sardinia, Baleares, Iberia), and if I recall well it shows only late (phoenician/greek) arrival of this type of admixture

on the other hand, that type of admixture may already have arrived in the Aegean and in Troy during early Heladic (Cycladic culture) and slightly prior to the foundation of Troy, ca 5 ka
by the time of Myceneans the incoming Kura-Araxes was already heavily admixed with Aegean or Anatolian EEF and had also recieved a tad of steppe

Angela
28-01-20, 21:28
Bronze Age Beaker sample from Sicily.


Distance to:
I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily


17.75790528
Morocco_Jews


18.68690451
Sephardic_Jews


20.97808233
Italy_Calabria


21.34804441
Ashkenazi


21.53729198
Italy_Campania


22.10654428
Ashkenazy_Jews


22.14209035
Italy_Sicily


23.06039410
France_Corsica


23.21633691
Italy_Abruzzo


24.42997540
Italy_Marche


24.76014943
Greek_Crete


25.52503884
Italy_Apulia


25.78033095
Italy_Lazio


26.09522945
Greek


26.45275033
Italy_Romagna


27.37371002
Cypriots


27.69570021
Italy_Tuscany


28.93280683
Italy_Emilia


29.16867275
Italy_Liguria


29.84378662
Greek_Cappadocia


31.19259556
Italy_Lombardy


31.21225240
Nusayri_Turkey


32.33615314
Crimean_Tatar_Coast


32.69854890
Italy_Piedmont


32.70471526
Albanian_Kosovo



Fits are bad, but more eastern and even southeastern ancestry was already in Sicily pretty damn early, I would say.

Original dodecad seems more reasonable, as always, though the fits are still bad.


Distance to:
I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily


17.75790528
Morocco_Jews


18.18684415
Sicilian


18.68690451
Sephardic_Jews


19.18726140
S_Italian_Sicilian


21.20363412
C_Italian


21.34804441
Ashkenazi


22.10654428
Ashkenazy_Jews


23.35725583
Tuscan


24.08437253
TSI30


26.09522945
Greek


27.25755308
O_Italian


27.37371002
Cypriots


28.92887312
North_Italian


30.30025412
N_Italian


33.40130237
Canarias


34.58367245
Andalucia


35.04589848
Baleares


35.06321149
Sardinian


35.24731195
Murcia


35.29380966
Lebanese


35.44868122
Turkish


35.86672413
Druze


36.96170992
Extremadura


37.15035128
Galicia


37.28312085
Portuguese



As I said, I think something is wrong with the samples people just added to the "updated" sources, using their "own" collection, instead of academic samples.

Jovialis
29-01-20, 02:02
Here are the Iron age samples vs all of the other samples I composed, up until the Iron Age:



Distance to:
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


7.35068024
I3151_Trypillia


8.76047373
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.09492716
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


9.45085710
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.68979876
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.22361971
I2110_Trypillia


10.55012322
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


10.69418534
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


11.07581148
I2111_Trypillia


11.10573726
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


11.73281296
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


11.86617040
I1926_Trypillia


11.93298370
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


11.95698122
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.09002895
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


12.25331384
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


12.57254549
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


13.06662925
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


14.70167337
ANI160_Varna_Outlier


15.60879880
I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic


15.69832794
I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic


15.99142270
I2440_Globular_Amphora


16.00827286
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic


16.41852003
ANI159_ANI181_Varna


17.61280784
I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic





Distance to:
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


3.98938592
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.18398606
I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.69891583
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.18047208
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


12.27822056
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.32561560
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.78267186
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


14.57795253
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


15.27564401
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


15.91312980
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


16.52904111
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


16.88675813
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier


17.72015801
I2111_Trypillia


17.85182624
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


17.88307300
I3151_Trypillia


19.51211931
Bul4_Yamnaya_Bulgaria


19.52825133
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


20.81853981
I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese


21.26791480
ANI159_ANI181_Varna


21.48199246
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


21.48879475
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


22.59939380
ANI163_Varna_Outlier


22.90999345
I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese


22.98291974
I2110_Trypillia


23.52690800
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic





Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


5.90466765
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


7.39762124
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


7.71334558
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


8.13312363
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


8.35159266
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


8.37548805
I2111_Trypillia


8.72612743
I3151_Trypillia


9.37365457
I2110_Trypillia


9.76218725
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


9.95499874
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.52312216
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


10.72228520
I1926_Trypillia


11.05433851
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


11.10513395
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


11.40769915
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


11.85190702
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


11.99557418
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


12.39624540
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


14.56524631
ANI160_Varna_Outlier


14.83928570
I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic


15.12514463
I2440_Globular_Amphora


15.68691174
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic


15.79446739
ANI159_ANI181_Varna


15.87163823
I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic


17.14077595
I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic





Distance to:
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


5.23807216
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


7.33017053
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


7.88686249
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


8.15739542
I2111_Trypillia


8.17621551
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


8.33299466
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


8.84239786
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


9.36587423
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.83392089
I3151_Trypillia


10.07499380
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.18056482
I2110_Trypillia


10.61650131
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.62080505
I1926_Trypillia


11.21283639
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


11.59367931
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


12.06694245
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


12.55335015
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


13.34862165
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


14.53531217
I2440_Globular_Amphora


14.89616394
ANI160_Varna_Outlier


15.12287340
I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic


16.46113909
ANI159_ANI181_Varna


16.75412487
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic


16.95964327
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier


17.28357023
I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic





Distance to:
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


5.74122809
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.65161126
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.61332653
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.90744700
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


11.18787737
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


11.81452496
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


12.33373423
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


12.54336877
I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.68957840
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


13.05530161
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


14.00343886
I2111_Trypillia


14.45190299
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier


14.92140074
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


16.12808730
I3151_Trypillia


16.50133328
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


16.56924561
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


19.25042597
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


19.48904564
I2110_Trypillia


19.91931977
I1926_Trypillia


20.60890342
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


21.63774711
ANI159_ANI181_Varna


22.12422428
Bul4_Yamnaya_Bulgaria


22.31793673
ANI163_Varna_Outlier


22.36372286
I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic


22.86688654
I2440_Globular_Amphora





Distance to:
R475_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


13.09405590
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


13.33166531
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


13.49426545
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


13.88860684
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


14.05401010
ANI159_ANI181_Varna


14.09213965
I2111_Trypillia


15.26023263
I4089_Balkans_Chalcolithic


15.28873441
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic


15.28887177
I2424_Balkans_Chalcolithic


15.61965429
I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese


15.83670736
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


15.90954116
I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese


15.92678247
I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic


16.11320576
I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic


16.53829495
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


16.77566690
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


17.01953290
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


17.11525051
I2427_Balkans_Chalcolithic


17.52946092
I2423_Balkans_Chalcolithic


17.60192035
I2426_Balkans_Chalcolithic


17.62203734
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


17.96744556
I1109_Malak_Preslavets


18.63348330
I2509_Balkans_Chalcolithic


18.71979701
ASH068_Iron_Age1


18.78957158
I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese





Distance to:
R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata


7.64113866
I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese


9.80721673
I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese


10.52248070
I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese


10.75826194
ASH068_Iron_Age1


12.08184175
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


13.31058977
I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis


14.03341726
I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta


14.17018701
ANI159_ANI181_Varna


14.77072781
I0679_Krepost_Neolithic


14.92823164
I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta


15.25588411
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


15.46300747
I2427_Balkans_Chalcolithic


15.54781014
I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


15.85167499
I2424_Balkans_Chalcolithic


16.55914551
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


16.59398084
I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete


16.69271697
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


17.21921020
I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic


17.50940319
I3709_Peloponnese_Neolithic


17.54941879
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


17.57468634
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic


17.63260616
I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


17.64726608
I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


17.68089364
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


17.88896028
I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete





Distance to:
R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella


2.14441134
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


6.97894691
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


7.11525825
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


9.01150931
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


11.23877217
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier


12.23966911
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


13.58203961
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


14.33947349
I3151_Trypillia


14.91302116
I2111_Trypillia


15.69331705
I2440_Globular_Amphora


15.79126974
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


16.52166154
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


16.61040638
I2403_Globular_Amphora


16.70247886
I1926_Trypillia


16.79514513
Bul8_Balkans_BronzeAge


17.15141977
I2110_Trypillia


18.74883196
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


18.78495142
I2433_Globular_Amphora


18.87954978
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


19.18714674
I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge


19.26961338
I2441_Globular_Amphora


19.51294186
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


19.89261672
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


20.68005319
I2434_Globular_Amphora


21.55101854
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic





Distance to:
R851_Iron_Age_Ardea


7.12745396
I3151_Trypillia


8.31362737
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


8.94475265
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


9.73866521
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


10.11018299
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.14648708
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


11.57587146
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


11.68067207
I2110_Trypillia


11.81369967
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.75417971
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.96713538
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


13.14383886
I1926_Trypillia


13.18246183
I2111_Trypillia


14.07380901
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


14.47627369
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


14.86646226
I2440_Globular_Amphora


15.59638740
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


15.78815062
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


15.94750451
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier


16.54377224
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


17.91801607
ANI160_Varna_Outlier


18.25397217
I2433_Globular_Amphora


18.68158184
I2441_Globular_Amphora


18.77697526
I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic


19.37577611
I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic





Distance to:
R850_Iron_Age_Ardea


9.70182457
I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta


10.36232599
ASH067_Iron_Age1


11.27515410
I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta


11.91529269
I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta


16.20714966
ASH066_Iron_Age1


16.78097137
I0679_Krepost_Neolithic


17.50239984
ASH034_Late_Bronze_Age


17.83166846
I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese


17.89449636
ASH029_Late_Bronze_Age


18.04525422
I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete


18.45507518
I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis


19.90462509
I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese


20.20018812
I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


20.34773206
ASH033_Late_Bronze_Age


20.65300220
I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


20.92920448
ASH068_Iron_Age1


21.11986032
ASH008_Iron_Age2


21.14818668
I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


21.43323587
I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


22.19379192
I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


22.37594691
ASH087_Iron_Age2


22.54875606
I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese


23.36968977
I3709_Peloponnese_Neolithic


24.84876858
KFH2_KfarHaHoresh_PPNB


25.05676356
I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily




Distance to:
R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica


6.69770856
I3151_Trypillia


9.72555911
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


9.81126393
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.30931133
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


10.38576911
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.45481229
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


11.41484998
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


11.43899034
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.04413965
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


12.20604768
I2110_Trypillia


12.28929209
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


12.79157535
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


13.04577326
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


13.42683879
I2111_Trypillia


14.22975755
I1926_Trypillia


14.38184967
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


14.64225392
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


14.87163407
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


17.02191529
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier


17.12151862
I2440_Globular_Amphora


17.40549339
ANI160_Varna_Outlier


18.13532189
I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic


18.77317235
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic


18.86425191
I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic


19.09591579
ANI159_ANI181_Varna

Angela
29-01-20, 03:20
Here are the Iron age samples vs all of the other samples I composed, up until the Iron Age:



Distance to:
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


7.35068024
I3151_Trypillia


8.76047373
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.09492716
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


9.45085710
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.68979876
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.22361971
I2110_Trypillia


10.55012322
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


10.69418534
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


11.07581148
I2111_Trypillia


11.10573726
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


11.73281296
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


11.86617040
I1926_Trypillia


11.93298370
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


11.95698122
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.09002895
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


12.25331384
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


12.57254549
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


13.06662925
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


14.70167337
ANI160_Varna_Outlier


15.60879880
I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic


15.69832794
I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic


15.99142270
I2440_Globular_Amphora


16.00827286
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic


16.41852003
ANI159_ANI181_Varna


17.61280784
I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic





Distance to:
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


3.98938592
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.18398606
I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.69891583
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.18047208
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


12.27822056
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.32561560
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.78267186
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


14.57795253
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


15.27564401
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


15.91312980
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


16.52904111
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


16.88675813
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier


17.72015801
I2111_Trypillia


17.85182624
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


17.88307300
I3151_Trypillia


19.51211931
Bul4_Yamnaya_Bulgaria


19.52825133
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


20.81853981
I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese


21.26791480
ANI159_ANI181_Varna


21.48199246
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


21.48879475
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


22.59939380
ANI163_Varna_Outlier


22.90999345
I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese


22.98291974
I2110_Trypillia


23.52690800
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic





Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


5.90466765
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


7.39762124
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


7.71334558
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


8.13312363
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


8.35159266
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


8.37548805
I2111_Trypillia


8.72612743
I3151_Trypillia


9.37365457
I2110_Trypillia


9.76218725
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


9.95499874
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.52312216
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


10.72228520
I1926_Trypillia


11.05433851
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


11.10513395
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


11.40769915
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


11.85190702
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


11.99557418
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


12.39624540
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


14.56524631
ANI160_Varna_Outlier


14.83928570
I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic


15.12514463
I2440_Globular_Amphora


15.68691174
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic


15.79446739
ANI159_ANI181_Varna


15.87163823
I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic


17.14077595
I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic





Distance to:
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


5.23807216
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


7.33017053
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


7.88686249
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


8.15739542
I2111_Trypillia


8.17621551
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


8.33299466
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


8.84239786
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


9.36587423
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.83392089
I3151_Trypillia


10.07499380
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.18056482
I2110_Trypillia


10.61650131
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.62080505
I1926_Trypillia


11.21283639
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


11.59367931
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


12.06694245
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


12.55335015
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


13.34862165
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


14.53531217
I2440_Globular_Amphora


14.89616394
ANI160_Varna_Outlier


15.12287340
I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic


16.46113909
ANI159_ANI181_Varna


16.75412487
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic


16.95964327
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier


17.28357023
I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic





Distance to:
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


5.74122809
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.65161126
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.61332653
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.90744700
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


11.18787737
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


11.81452496
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


12.33373423
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


12.54336877
I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.68957840
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


13.05530161
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


14.00343886
I2111_Trypillia


14.45190299
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier


14.92140074
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


16.12808730
I3151_Trypillia


16.50133328
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


16.56924561
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


19.25042597
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


19.48904564
I2110_Trypillia


19.91931977
I1926_Trypillia


20.60890342
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


21.63774711
ANI159_ANI181_Varna


22.12422428
Bul4_Yamnaya_Bulgaria


22.31793673
ANI163_Varna_Outlier


22.36372286
I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic


22.86688654
I2440_Globular_Amphora





Distance to:
R475_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


13.09405590
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


13.33166531
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


13.49426545
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


13.88860684
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


14.05401010
ANI159_ANI181_Varna


14.09213965
I2111_Trypillia


15.26023263
I4089_Balkans_Chalcolithic


15.28873441
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic


15.28887177
I2424_Balkans_Chalcolithic


15.61965429
I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese


15.83670736
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


15.90954116
I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese


15.92678247
I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic


16.11320576
I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic


16.53829495
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


16.77566690
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


17.01953290
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


17.11525051
I2427_Balkans_Chalcolithic


17.52946092
I2423_Balkans_Chalcolithic


17.60192035
I2426_Balkans_Chalcolithic


17.62203734
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


17.96744556
I1109_Malak_Preslavets


18.63348330
I2509_Balkans_Chalcolithic


18.71979701
ASH068_Iron_Age1


18.78957158
I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese





Distance to:
R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata


7.64113866
I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese


9.80721673
I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese


10.52248070
I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese


10.75826194
ASH068_Iron_Age1


12.08184175
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


13.31058977
I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis


14.03341726
I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta


14.17018701
ANI159_ANI181_Varna


14.77072781
I0679_Krepost_Neolithic


14.92823164
I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta


15.25588411
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


15.46300747
I2427_Balkans_Chalcolithic


15.54781014
I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


15.85167499
I2424_Balkans_Chalcolithic


16.55914551
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


16.59398084
I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete


16.69271697
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


17.21921020
I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic


17.50940319
I3709_Peloponnese_Neolithic


17.54941879
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


17.57468634
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic


17.63260616
I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


17.64726608
I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


17.68089364
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


17.88896028
I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete





Distance to:
R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella


2.14441134
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


6.97894691
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


7.11525825
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


9.01150931
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


11.23877217
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier


12.23966911
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


13.58203961
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


14.33947349
I3151_Trypillia


14.91302116
I2111_Trypillia


15.69331705
I2440_Globular_Amphora


15.79126974
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


16.52166154
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


16.61040638
I2403_Globular_Amphora


16.70247886
I1926_Trypillia


16.79514513
Bul8_Balkans_BronzeAge


17.15141977
I2110_Trypillia


18.74883196
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


18.78495142
I2433_Globular_Amphora


18.87954978
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


19.18714674
I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge


19.26961338
I2441_Globular_Amphora


19.51294186
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


19.89261672
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


20.68005319
I2434_Globular_Amphora


21.55101854
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic





Distance to:
R851_Iron_Age_Ardea


7.12745396
I3151_Trypillia


8.31362737
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


8.94475265
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


9.73866521
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


10.11018299
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.14648708
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


11.57587146
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


11.68067207
I2110_Trypillia


11.81369967
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.75417971
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.96713538
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


13.14383886
I1926_Trypillia


13.18246183
I2111_Trypillia


14.07380901
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


14.47627369
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


14.86646226
I2440_Globular_Amphora


15.59638740
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


15.78815062
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


15.94750451
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier


16.54377224
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


17.91801607
ANI160_Varna_Outlier


18.25397217
I2433_Globular_Amphora


18.68158184
I2441_Globular_Amphora


18.77697526
I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic


19.37577611
I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic





Distance to:
R850_Iron_Age_Ardea


9.70182457
I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta


10.36232599
ASH067_Iron_Age1


11.27515410
I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta


11.91529269
I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta


16.20714966
ASH066_Iron_Age1


16.78097137
I0679_Krepost_Neolithic


17.50239984
ASH034_Late_Bronze_Age


17.83166846
I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese


17.89449636
ASH029_Late_Bronze_Age


18.04525422
I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete


18.45507518
I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis


19.90462509
I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese


20.20018812
I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


20.34773206
ASH033_Late_Bronze_Age


20.65300220
I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


20.92920448
ASH068_Iron_Age1


21.11986032
ASH008_Iron_Age2


21.14818668
I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


21.43323587
I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


22.19379192
I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete


22.37594691
ASH087_Iron_Age2


22.54875606
I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese


23.36968977
I3709_Peloponnese_Neolithic


24.84876858
KFH2_KfarHaHoresh_PPNB


25.05676356
I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily




Distance to:
R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica


6.69770856
I3151_Trypillia


9.72555911
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


9.81126393
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.30931133
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


10.38576911
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.45481229
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


11.41484998
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


11.43899034
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.04413965
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


12.20604768
I2110_Trypillia


12.28929209
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


12.79157535
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


13.04577326
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


13.42683879
I2111_Trypillia


14.22975755
I1926_Trypillia


14.38184967
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


14.64225392
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


14.87163407
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


17.02191529
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier


17.12151862
I2440_Globular_Amphora


17.40549339
ANI160_Varna_Outlier


18.13532189
I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic


18.77317235
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic


18.86425191
I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic


19.09591579
ANI159_ANI181_Varna




Did you include these, Jovialis? I ask because of a discussion I'm having with Ygorcs about whether there was a British Bronze Age or Iberian or North Alpine pull in these samples.

Just for the heck of it I added them. (If some are post Iron Age, please let me know and I'll remove them.)

NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120,7.59,0.73,0.40 ,0.00,39.57,31.32,1.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,17.73,0.86
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72,4.56,0. 00,0.00,0.00,42.85,31.92,0.69,0.89,2.30,0.31,16.30 ,0.19
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119,9.54,1.40,0.00 ,0.27,43.57,32.66,0.11,0.14,0.20,0.00,11.08,1.01
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78,10.50,0.54,0.54 ,0.00,39.10,37.12,0.00,0.35,2.04,0.00,9.53,0.28
NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_50,10.70,0.00,0.00,0.00 ,35.87,44.30,2.23,0.13,0.00,0.00,4.95,1.82
NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_2,5.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,4 0.44,41.78,1.83,0.00,1.04,0.00,8.28,0.99
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239,0.00,0.00,2.63,2.34,44. 59,28.94,2.32,0.66,0.00,0.00,18.51,0.00
IberianSettlementCataloniaSpain_I3496,5.38,0.21,0. 75,0.00,53.63,28.85,1.92,1.72,5.92,0.00,1.63,0.00
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3243,8.87,0.00,2.93,4.86,36. 62,38.06,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,8.67,0.00
ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977,2.96,0.00,2.41,0.00,5 2.45,25.53,0.60,0.00,3.19,0.00,12.86,0.00
IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9,0.89,0.00,1.25,0.00,58.14,21. 43,0.49,0.00,4.69,0.00,11.18,1.93
BellBeakerFranceI1388,0.00,0.00,2.30,0.00,59.39,21 .76,0.81,0.00,7.46,0.00,8.28,0.00
IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320,4.64,0.00,4.88,1.09,52 .24,25.19,0.00,0.00,3.67,0.00,7.44,0.86
IlercavonesCatalan_I3321,3.80,0.00,4.55,0.00,55.48 ,25.14,0.00,0.83,2.20,0.32,7.68,0.00
BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874,5.77,0.32,0.81,0.47 ,39.46,40.05,1.07,0.56,0.80,0.00,10.47,0.22
IberianElArgarBronzeAge_I8136,0.00,0.00,4.83,0.00, 61.85,21.67,1.21,0.00,3.88,0.00,6.07,0.49
BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208,1.39,0.00,5.31,0.43,5 4.53,22.97,1.16,0.00,3.96,0.94,8.35,0.95
Bavaria_BB_II5524,2.95,0.00,1.28,1.77,41.61,28.76, 0.00,0.00,3.52,0.00,20.12,0.00
BronzeAgeEngland_I2462,8.52,1.12,1.18,0.00,45.45,3 3.73,0.00,0.00,2.08,0.00,6.90,1.02
BronzeAgeOuterHebrides_I2655,9.88,0.61,0.00,0.39,3 7.20,45.77,0.76,0.00,0.29,0.00,4.27,0.82
NeolithicScotland_I2634,0.00,0.00,6.63,1.42,60.56, 11.65,0.00,0.21,7.56,0.00,11.96,0.00


Same samples:

R473 Etruscan


Distance to:
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


5.23807216
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


7.33017053
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


7.88686249
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


8.15739542
I2111_Trypillia


8.17621551
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


8.33299466
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


8.84239786
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


9.36587423
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.46015856
Bavaria_BB_II5524


9.83392089
I3151_Trypillia


10.07499380
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.18056482
I2110_Trypillia


10.61650131
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.62080505
I1926_Trypillia


10.62551175
ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977


10.84815192
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239


11.21283639
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


11.59367931
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


12.06694245
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


12.55335015
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


12.55979299
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72


13.34862165
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


14.53531217
I2440_Globular_Amphora


14.54483757
IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9



Bavaria BB did show up, but at a further distance than the Balkan samples. Same for the Spanish samples which show up.

R474 Etruscan...This one has good hits to the German BB and North Alpine samples


Distance to:
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


5.74122809
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


6.77580991
Bavaria_BB_II5524


8.72072818
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120


9.30280603
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72


9.65161126
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.61332653
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.90744700
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


11.18787737
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


11.81452496
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


11.82549788
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239


12.33373423
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


12.54336877
I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.68957840
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


13.05530161
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


13.21538876
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119


14.00343886
I2111_Trypillia


14.45190299
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier


14.92140074
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


15.52350798
ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977


15.70083756
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78


16.12808730
I3151_Trypillia


16.32355047
BronzeAgeEngland_I2462


16.50133328
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


16.56924561
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


17.55443819
BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874



R1015 Etruscan-more Balkan Bronze Age heavy


Distance to:
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


5.90466765
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


7.39762124
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


7.71334558
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


8.13312363
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


8.35159266
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


8.37548805
I2111_Trypillia


8.72612743
I3151_Trypillia


9.37365457
I2110_Trypillia


9.64178925
Bavaria_BB_II5524


9.76218725
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


9.95499874
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.42357424
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239


10.52312216
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


10.70558733
ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977


10.72228520
I1926_Trypillia


11.05433851
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


11.10513395
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


11.40769915
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


11.85190702
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


11.99557418
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


12.39624540
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


13.15312510
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72


14.56524631
ANI160_Varna_Outlier


14.83928570
I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic


14.89781192
IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9



R1016 Roman-the only upper class sample-again, closer to Bronze Age Balkans


Distance to:
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


7.35068024
I3151_Trypillia


8.76047373
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.09492716
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


9.45085710
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


9.68979876
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.22361971
I2110_Trypillia


10.45816906
Bavaria_BB_II5524


10.55012322
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


10.69418534
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.99995000
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239


11.07581148
I2111_Trypillia


11.10573726
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


11.18283506
ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977


11.73281296
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


11.86617040
I1926_Trypillia


11.93298370
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


11.95698122
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.09002895
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


12.25331384
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


12.57254549
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


13.06662925
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


13.48874716
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72


14.70167337
ANI160_Varna_Outlier


14.73282050
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120


15.32862681
IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9



Boville Ernica-Bavarian BB and a Spanish sample show up relatively early


Distance to:
R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica


6.69770856
I3151_Trypillia


7.95362182
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239


8.44269507
Bavaria_BB_II5524


9.72555911
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


9.81126393
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.30931133
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


10.38576911
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.45481229
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


10.87415284
ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977


11.41484998
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


11.43899034
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


11.56217540
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72


12.04413965
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


12.20604768
I2110_Trypillia


12.28929209
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


12.79157535
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


13.04577326
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


13.36867982
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120


13.42683879
I2111_Trypillia


14.22975755
I1926_Trypillia


14.38184967
I1295_Malak_Preslavets


14.64225392
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


14.87163407
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


16.00559902
IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9


16.21570535
IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320





Distance to:
R851_Iron_Age_Ardea


7.12745396
I3151_Trypillia


7.74215732
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239


8.31362737
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


8.37911093
ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977


8.94475265
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


8.99763302
Bavaria_BB_II5524


9.73866521
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


10.11018299
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


10.14648708
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


10.83610631
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72


11.57587146
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


11.68067207
I2110_Trypillia


11.81369967
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.75417971
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.96713538
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


13.14383886
I1926_Trypillia


13.18246183
I2111_Trypillia


13.56668346
IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9


13.62619169
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120


13.98647919
BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208


14.07380901
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


14.10845137
IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320


14.47627369
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic


14.57562692
IlercavonesCatalan_I3321


14.86646226
I2440_Globular_Amphora





Distance to:
R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella


2.14441134
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


6.60470287
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72


6.79479212
ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977


6.97894691
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


7.11525825
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


8.59178678
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119


9.01150931
I1297_Malak_Preslavets


9.15171569
Bavaria_BB_II5524


9.40140947
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239


9.51282292
BronzeAgeEngland_I2462


9.63494162
IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320


10.53571070
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120


11.23877217
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier


11.64855356
IlercavonesCatalan_I3321


12.15553783
BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208


12.23966911
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


13.58203961
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


13.76760691
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78


13.82287597
IberianSettlementCataloniaSpain_I3496


13.98864540
IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9


14.33947349
I3151_Trypillia


14.60477319
BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874


14.91302116
I2111_Trypillia


15.69331705
I2440_Globular_Amphora


15.79126974
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge



From what I can see there's a mixture of Balkan Bronze Age and North Alpine/German BB/Iberian Bronze Age, with some samples leaning more one way than the other.

I would need more Etruscan samples to say whether they lean more "eastern" than "western" Bronze Age compared to the Latins, or vice versa.

Ed. switched eastern and western.

Jovialis
29-01-20, 04:45
@Angela, I hadn't used those, but I agree with your conclusion based on the affinity of these samples.

Jovialis
29-01-20, 05:25
@Angela,

The PCA for these samples are interesting as well; https://vahaduo.github.io/custompca/

https://i.imgur.com/a6mRgrm.png

Here are the coordinates I used for the Ancient Samples + Modern West Eurasian:


R850_Iron_Age_Ardea,7.30,0,4.52,1.08,21.26,10.54,0 ,0.43,14.77,0,40.10,0
R851_Iron_Age_Ardea,1.59,0,1.39,0,49.28,24.97,0,0. 14,1.93,0,20.26,0.45
R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella,4.84,0.64,0.65 ,0,47.12,28.54,0.15,0,4.13,0,13.40,0.53
R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata,6.45,0,3.03,0,33 .19,11.94,0,0,11.63,0,33.74,0.02
R475_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,0,0,13.01,0,38.12,12.1 4,0.37,1.98,11.26,0,22.70,0.42
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,7.18,0.17,2.38,0,39.08 ,25.74,0,0,5.98,0,18.84,0.66
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,1.01,0,0.68,0.15,47.26 ,22.79,0,0.21,7.39,0.21,20.17,0.34
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia,1.56,0.19,2.8 5,0,47.15,21.66,0,0,5.46,0,20.85,0
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro,5.02,1.78 ,1.33,0,35.08,26.46,0,0,5.43,0,24.50,0.40
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima,3.86,0.98,1.53,0.1 9,47.23,20.37,1.43,0,3.31,0,21.10,0
R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica,2.11,0,1.96,0.60,47. 70,24.04,0,0,1.33,0,22.26,0
Sicilian,4.50,0.00,4.10,0.00,30.03,11.91,0.10,0.70 ,11.91,0.00,36.54,0.20
S_Italian_Sicilian,5.50,0.10,2.50,0.00,29.90,11.80 ,0.50,0.70,12.50,0.00,36.50,0.00
C_Italian,4.80,0.00,2.30,0.00,34.83,17.12,0.10,0.0 0,8.71,0.00,32.13,0.00
O_Italian,6.21,0.00,1.10,0.00,33.53,21.82,0.00,0.2 0,7.81,0.00,28.53,0.80
Tuscan,4.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,37.86,18.68,0.50,0.00,7 .19,0.50,30.47,0.00
TSI30,5.01,0.00,0.80,0.00,38.78,19.34,0.10,0.00,7. 31,0.00,28.66,0.00
North_Italian,4.50,0.00,0.70,0.00,44.04,22.02,0.00 ,0.00,5.81,0.00,22.92,0.00
N_Italian,5.69,0.00,0.90,0.00,41.16,23.68,0.20,0.0 0,5.59,0.00,22.78,0.00
Swiss_Italian,3.9175,0.0825,1.1025,0,39.8525,28.55 ,0.185,0.0625,5.7975,0,20.45,0
Italy_Aosta_Valley,5.817,0.055,1.62,0.1424,40.6528 ,29.9942,0.2457,0.052857,4.298,0.03,16.98,0.111
Italy_Trentino,4.792,0.216,0.726,0.044,38.714,29.7 92,0,0,5.468,0.02,20.222,0
Italy_FriuliVG,5.44,0.278,1.174,0.014,34.924,29.32 ,0.076,0,7.032,0,21.72,0.022
Italy_Veneto,5.443,0.0427,1.433,0.17818,36.93,27.1 6,0.062,0,5.728,0.15,22.83,0.03
Italy_Lombardy,4.749,0.123,1.119,0.039,39.628,25.0 77,0.166,0.013,6.41,0.026,22.618,0.0266
Italy_Piedmont,5.92,0.132,1.729,0.085,37.82,26.019 5,0.035,0.035,6.7275,0.02395,21.37,0.1
Italy_Liguria,5.1,0.05,2.014,0.0922,37.89,23.225,0 .2477,0.053,7.89,0.048,23.39,0
Italy_Emilia,6.13,0,1.15,0.1801,37.614,22.757,0.14 ,0.107,7.396,0.25,24.22,0.055
Italy_Romagna,6.08,0,1.87,0.13,34.66,20.98,0.1,0,8 .99,0,27.19,0
Italy_Tuscany,6.12,0.049,1.21,0.139,36.889,21.811, 0.157,0.055,8.206,0,25.364,0
Italy_Lazio,6.725,0,2.67,0.0525,31.7,19.8175,0.257 5,0.07,9.785,0.1725,28.747,0
Italy_Marche,6.421,0.082,2.38,0.048,32.91,18.72,0. 294,0.267,9.802,0,29.042,0.034
France_Corsica,4.812,0,2.998,0,39.95,17.762,0.09,0 ,8.306,0.064,25.994,0.024
Italy_Abruzzo,7.586,0.0283,3.225,0.0383,29.12,16.1 ,0,0.0783,10.91,0.316,32.598,0
Italy_Campania,7.065,0.086,2.818,0.085,28.905,13.7 27,0.111,0.334,12.32,0.02,34.342,0.111
Italy_Apulia,7.382,0.32,2.812,0.336,26.188,17.186, 0.274,0.266,11.314,0.412,33.356,0.154
Italy_Sicily,7.313,0.482,4.594,0.101,27.216,13.451 ,0.249,0.653,12.095,0.047,33.163,0.635
Italy_Calabria,7.006,0.1308,4.1825,0.0759,27.005,1 1.44083,0.2616,0.5983,13.52416,0.22,35.4525,0.0975
ANI152_Varna,0,0,0,7.78,44.92,3.01,0,0,11.36,0,32. 93,0
ANI153_Varna,2.13,0,0,0,51.89,5.96,5.65,3.03,10.35 ,0,20.99,0
ANI159_ANI181_Varna,0,0,3.07,0,44.93,10.49,0,0,12. 13,0,29.38,0
ANI160_Varna_Outlier,0,0,0,0,52.83,10.79,0,0,10.03 ,0,26.35,0
ANI163_Varna_Outlier,8.64,0,2.63,0,29.14,44.17,0.6 2,0,0.66,0,13.52,0.02
I0633_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,3.48,0,48.68,0,0,0,12. 28,0,35.57,0
I0634_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,3.04,0,51.34,0,0,0,13. 43,0.25,31.76,0.17
I0676_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,4.22,0,51.96,0,0,0,11. 72,0,32.09,0
I0679_Krepost_Neolithic,4.98,0,2.66,0.27,34.26,1.1 6,0,0,13.05,0,43.56,0.06
I0698_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,4.76,0,52.43,0,0,0,13. 38,0,29.43,0
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,1.22,0.90,48.64,14.14, 0,0,6.76,0,28.32,0.02
I0785_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.23,0,49.57,0,0,0, 17.01,0,30.19,0
I1109_Malak_Preslavets,0,0.07,2.03,0,50.22,7.11,0, 0,12.90,0.10,27.56,0
I1113_Malak_Preslavets,0,0,0.20,0,45.55,29.58,0,0, 7.27,0,16.75,0.66
I1131_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,2.38,0.10,55.06,0,0,0, 12.85,0,29.57,0.04
I1295_Malak_Preslavets,0,0,3.14,0,49.84,12.28,0,0, 6.83,0.03,27.49,0.39
I1296_Malak_Preslavets,0,0,7.53,0,56.78,8.14,2.34, 1.97,5.09,0,17.29,0.87
I1297_Malak_Preslavets,0,0,0,0,52.70,25.39,0,0,8.0 5,0,13.87,0
I1298_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,5.68,1.17,60.20,1.94,0 ,0,5.84,0,25.18,0
I1926_Trypillia,0,0,2.41,0,54.57,16.20,0,0,9.41,0, 17.41,0
I2110_Trypillia,0,0,3.57,0.44,54.23,16.16,0,1.34,6 .95,0,20.31,0
I2111_Trypillia,0,0,5.24,0,46.15,18.81,0,0,12.04,0 ,17.76,0
I2163_Balkans_BronzeAge,21.63,1.00,0,1.01,17.80,51 .39,1.00,0,0,0,5.18,0.99
I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge,4.00,0,2.29,0,31.35,34.24, 0.17,0,4.66,0,22.50,0.79
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge,0,0.24,3.96,0.15,44.81,16. 75,0,0,8.23,0,25.87,0
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge,0,0.13,4.71,0,41.53,21.46, 0,0,8.26,0,23.91,0
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier,1.19,0,0,0,41.7 9,37.57,0,0,4.43,0.31,14.71,0
I2215_Malak_Preslavets,0,1.10,4.90,0,46.06,26.49,0 ,0.33,5.15,0,14.83,1.15
I2216_Malak_Preslavets,0,0,3.02,0,51.29,1.02,0,0,1 1.44,0,33.22,0
I2318_Peloponnese_Neolithic,0,0,1.09,0,44.62,0,0,0 ,13.77,0,40.52,0
I2403_Globular_Amphora,0,0.83,2.31,0,59.88,25.84,0 ,0,6.36,0,4.78,0
I2405_Globular_Amphora,0,0,0,0,69.86,17.08,0,0,4.8 1,0,8.25,0
I2423_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.23,0,48.97,5.31,0 ,0,13.48,0,28.88,0.13
I2424_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.73,0,45.99,6.95,0 ,0,13.64,0,29.69,0
I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,4.44,0,54.61,8.79,0 ,0,6.31,0,25.84,0
I2426_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.32,0,47.06,8.21,0 ,0,21.64,0,19.77,0
I2427_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.93,0,44.78,4.58,0 ,0,14.21,0,32.50,0
I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,2.70,0,47.75,8.28,0 ,0,12.82,0,28.45,0
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,4.01,0,48.30,9.01,0 ,0,10.16,0,28.52,0
I2433_Globular_Amphora,0,0,4.98,0,61.34,19.23,0,0, 5.45,0,9.00,0
I2434_Globular_Amphora,0,0,0.42,0,64.12,19.13,0,0, 7.08,0,9.25,0
I2440_Globular_Amphora,0,0,1.32,0,58.65,19.93,0,0, 7.59,0,11.71,0.80
I2441_Globular_Amphora,0,0,3.56,0,61.46,18.19,0,0, 7.23,0.06,9.34,0.16
I2509_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,6.02,0,47.70,1.62,0 ,0,12.45,0,32.20,0
I2510_Balkans_BronzeAge,0,0,2.52,0,51.52,1.22,0,0, 13.30,0,31.44,0
I2519_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.96,0.24,45.47,0.3 9,0,0,14.22,0,35.72,0
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge,0,0,3.13,0.78,43.29,22.62, 0.71,0,9.26,0.28,19.92,0
I2521_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,5.12,0,47.12,0,0,0,13. 49,0.10,34.16,0
I2526_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,4.07,0,51.63,0,0,0,11. 52,0,32.78,0
I2532_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,2.40,0,50.58,0,0,0,12. 65,0.10,34.28,0
I2533_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,3.27,0,52.14,0,0,0,12. 35,0.08,32.16,0
I4167_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,0,0,59.00,0,0,0,10.63, 2.65,26.89,0.83
I4168_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,1.41,0,54.81,1.57,0,0, 13.72,0,28.48,0
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge,4.65,0,0.65,0,38.24,27.11, 0,0,5.98,0,23.37,0
Abhkasians,17.20,0.90,0.00,0.60,0.00,11.10,0.00,0. 00,0.00,0.20,70.00,0.00
Adygei,17.18,2.40,0.00,0.30,1.90,20.18,0.20,0.00,0 .00,1.30,56.54,0.00
Albanian_Kosovo,5.18,0.14,0.62,0.17,29.47,27.1,0.2 3,0.01,8.13,0.26,28.69,0
Albanian_North,4.49,0,1.15,0.03,29.7,28.3,0.21,0.0 5,7.34,0.12,28.6,0
Andalucia,7.19,0.00,5.09,0.00,52.55,18.08,0.00,0.6 0,3.20,0.10,12.89,0.30
Aragon,6.31,0.10,3.40,0.00,56.16,21.82,0.40,0.00,3 .00,0.00,8.81,0.00
Argyll,13.10,0.00,0.00,0.00,41.20,45.20,0.00,0.00, 0.00,0.00,0.50,0.00
Armenian_East,18.78,0.24,0.62,0.08,10.82,5.54,0.48 ,0.02,14.21,0.13,49.01,0
Armenian_West,17.23,0.05,0.79,0.11,12.26,3.33,0.39 ,0.1,16.05,0.08,49.54,0
Ashkenazi,2.10,0.50,4.70,0.00,25.90,13.00,0.90,0.2 0,13.90,0.50,38.30,0.00
Ashkenazy_Jews,2.80,0.60,4.20,0.00,25.13,13.21,1.3 0,0.40,12.81,0.50,39.04,0.00
Assyrian,18.30,0.00,0.00,0.00,9.60,0.90,0.10,0.00, 18.90,0.00,52.20,0.00
Avar_Dagestan,25.18,2.76,0,0,6.09,25.32,1.19,0,2.0 6,0.28,37.13,0
Baleares,5.50,0.00,3.70,0.00,49.40,22.50,0.20,0.00 ,4.40,0.00,14.20,0.10
Balkars,15.80,3.90,0.00,0.10,0.80,19.40,0.10,0.00, 0.00,3.30,56.60,0.00
Bashkir,10.27,23.64,0.15,1.07,8,30.73,1.87,0.01,0. 49,16.51,7.24,0.01
Bedouin,5.00,0.00,4.90,0.00,8.20,0.40,0.00,5.30,43 .30,0.00,30.80,2.10
Belorussian,0.00,0.30,0.00,0.00,16.12,67.87,0.50,0 .00,1.90,0.00,13.31,0.00
Bosnian,4.81,0.53,0.39,0.12,25.91,42.79,0.74,0.03, 4.67,0.07,19.92,0.01
British,11.30,0.00,0.00,0.00,43.50,43.60,0.00,0.00 ,0.30,0.00,1.30,0.00
British_Isles,9.50,0.00,0.00,0.00,42.50,45.70,0.10 ,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.20,0.00
Bulgarian,3.30,0.30,0.50,0.00,23.70,34.80,0.50,0.0 0,6.40,0.40,30.10,0.00
Bulgarians,1.50,0.90,0.30,0.00,25.03,34.93,0.30,0. 00,5.71,0.60,30.73,0.00
Canarias,5.00,0.30,11.80,0.60,46.70,17.60,0.10,2.8 0,3.70,0.00,11.20,0.20
Cantabria,5.70,0.10,3.10,0.00,54.80,23.50,0.30,0.3 0,3.00,0.00,8.90,0.30
Castilla_La_Mancha,6.80,0.40,3.50,0.00,54.30,21.10 ,0.00,0.60,4.50,0.00,8.80,0.00
Castilla_Y_Leon,5.40,0.00,6.10,0.00,51.20,22.30,0. 40,0.60,4.00,0.00,10.00,0.00
Cataluna,7.30,0.00,2.40,0.00,52.10,25.20,0.30,0.00 ,3.50,0.00,9.20,0.00
CEU30,10.60,0.00,0.00,0.00,41.40,44.70,0.00,0.00,0 .00,0.00,3.30,0.00
Chechens,21.80,2.60,0.00,0.70,0.00,23.00,0.00,0.00 ,0.00,0.60,51.30,0.00
Chuvashs,4.50,20.02,0.00,0.00,6.71,52.75,1.00,0.00 ,0.70,4.10,10.21,0.00
Circassian,19.16,3.23,0,0.66,5.2,17.08,0.5,0.04,3. 75,2.3,48.03,0.07
Cornwall,11.40,0.00,0.00,0.00,43.80,42.80,0.00,0.0 0,0.00,0.00,2.00,0.00
Cypriots,5.81,0.00,2.10,0.00,20.52,4.50,0.00,0.00, 17.72,0.00,49.35,0.00
Druze,8.91,0.10,2.90,0.00,12.51,0.90,0.70,1.10,23. 12,0.00,49.55,0.20
Dutch,9.90,0.00,0.00,0.00,39.10,45.60,0.00,0.00,0. 60,0.00,4.80,0.00
English,10.62,0.00,0.00,0.00,41.58,44.59,0.00,0.00 ,0.10,0.00,3.11,0.00
Extremadura,6.91,0.00,6.01,0.00,48.25,22.12,0.30,1 .00,4.30,0.00,10.71,0.40
FIN30,0.90,7.20,0.00,0.10,14.10,73.50,0.70,0.00,2. 20,0.00,1.30,0.00
Finnish,0.30,6.70,0.00,0.00,13.40,75.50,0.20,0.00, 2.60,0.00,1.30,0.00
French,7.91,0.00,0.20,0.00,44.44,36.54,0.00,0.00,2 .50,0.00,8.41,0.00
French_Basque,9.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,73.10,17.10,0.00 ,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
French,8.08,0.00,0.60,0.00,43.81,36.83,0.10,0.00,2 .69,0.00,7.88,0.00
Galicia,5.09,0.00,5.00,0.00,48.25,23.38,0.70,0.90, 5.39,0.00,11.09,0.20
Georgia_Jews,16.92,0.00,0.70,0.40,7.41,3.60,0.00,0 .00,18.82,0.00,52.15,0.00
Georgian_Adjara,19.54,0.59,0,0,7.8,4.1,0.54,0.05,8 .46,0.31,58.62,0
Georgian_Gurian,18.73,0.31,0.02,0.34,4.51,10.73,0. 17,0.12,6.12,0,58.94,0
Georgian_Imereti,19.33,0.33,0,0.11,5.3,7.93,0.47,0 ,6.83,0.1,59.61,0
Georgian_Mingrelian,18.78,0.69,0.15,0.13,4.16,9.36 ,0.24,0.05,5.1,0.36,60.98,0
Georgian_Svan,20.22,1.36,0,0.33,2.71,11.49,0.15,0, 4.27,0.67,58.82,0
Georgian_Turkey,19.82,0.44,0,0.02,6.6,5.2,0.35,0.0 3,8.32,0.39,58.77,0
German,7.30,0.00,0.00,0.00,33.00,48.20,0.00,0.00,1 .70,0.00,9.80,0.00
Greek,3.30,0.30,0.60,0.00,28.00,20.20,0.10,0.00,10 .10,0.00,37.40,0.00
Greek_Cappadocia,11.66,0.41,0.6,0,18.85,6.27,0.13, 0,14.23,0.1,47.73,0.02
Greek_Crete,8.02,0.02,2.63,0.2,23.4,12.24,0.17,0.2 3,14.43,0.17,38.45,0.04
Greek_Pontus,14.93,0.01,0.41,0.06,12.38,4.19,0.13, 0.02,12.78,0.1,54.94,0
Hungarians,4.10,0.70,0.00,0.00,27.00,48.40,0.30,0. 00,3.00,0.30,16.20,0.00
Iranian,28.80,2.10,0.00,0.60,5.60,6.00,3.60,0.10,1 2.40,0.50,40.30,0.00
Iran_Central_East,27.96,1.89,0.38,0.41,5.35,8.62,8 .65,0.55,12.57,0.81,33.71,0.24
Iranian_Jews,18.80,0.40,1.80,0.40,6.80,0.00,0.00,0 .00,22.50,0.00,49.30,0.00
Iranians,30.90,1.00,0.90,0.30,5.90,4.20,4.20,0.90, 14.20,0.30,36.70,0.50
Iraq_Jews,16.80,0.00,1.60,0.10,8.90,0.00,0.10,0.00 ,24.70,0.00,47.80,0.00
Irish,11.91,0.00,0.00,0.00,42.74,45.15,0.00,0.00,0 .00,0.00,0.20,0.00
Jordanians,9.60,0.00,5.50,0.00,10.80,0.90,0.20,4.9 0,27.90,0.10,38.00,2.10
Kent,10.49,0.00,0.00,0.00,41.86,43.86,0.00,0.00,0. 20,0.00,3.60,0.00
Kumyks,20.00,3.90,0.00,0.50,3.10,18.80,0.40,0.00,3 .30,3.70,46.30,0.00
Kurd,28.70,1.50,0.90,0.40,5.90,5.70,1.10,0.40,14.0 0,1.00,40.40,0.00
Kurds,28.20,0.60,0.00,0.60,6.30,6.70,0.80,0.10,14. 30,0.20,42.20,0.00
Kurd_Kurmanji,24.19,1.39,1.15,0.18,8.64,7.09,2.59, 0.26,13.97,0.62,39.81,0.1
Kurd_Sorani,24.26,0.4,1.22,0.48,7.29,6.28,3.79,0.9 4,16,0.5,38.62,0.24
Lebanese,10.80,0.20,4.70,0.60,11.80,3.70,0.00,2.40 ,23.50,0.00,41.30,1.00
Lezgins,27.80,1.70,0.00,0.00,0.30,23.80,0.00,0.00, 0.80,0.00,45.60,0.00
Lithuanian,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,13.90,73.70,0.70,0. 00,1.60,0.00,10.10,0.00
Lithuanians,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,13.71,77.18,0.10,0 .00,1.00,0.00,8.01,0.00
Mixed_Germanic,10.70,0.00,0.00,0.00,38.40,44.10,0. 00,0.00,0.50,0.00,6.30,0.00
Mixed_Slav,0.90,1.50,0.00,0.10,16.58,64.34,0.70,0. 00,2.20,0.40,13.29,0.00
Mordovians,4.00,5.90,0.00,0.70,10.90,63.80,0.90,0. 00,0.60,0.90,12.30,0.00
Morocco_Jews,5.41,0.00,9.51,0.00,27.33,4.30,0.50,1 .10,17.02,0.00,34.03,0.80
Murcia,5.50,0.00,6.00,0.00,50.60,19.60,0.00,0.20,5 .90,0.60,11.20,0.40
Nogais,12.87,11.38,0.00,0.50,4.49,21.26,0.70,0.00, 0.10,11.48,37.23,0.00
North_Ossetians,16.50,3.90,0.00,0.20,0.00,19.20,0. 00,0.00,0.00,3.50,56.70,0.00
Norwegian,8.20,1.00,0.00,0.00,36.00,54.70,0.00,0.0 0,0.00,0.00,0.10,0.00
Nusayri_Turkey,12.48,0.49,3.15,0.39,16.16,2.82,0.5 8,1.16,19.46,0.1,42.95,0.25
Orcadian,12.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,42.40,45.60,0.00,0.0 0,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Orkney,11.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,41.80,46.40,0.00,0.00, 0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Pais_Vasco,9.10,0.00,0.00,0.00,67.30,22.40,0.00,0. 00,1.20,0.00,0.00,0.00
Palestinian,6.81,0.00,5.41,0.10,10.91,0.30,0.60,5. 21,30.43,0.00,38.24,2.00
Polish,0.50,0.10,0.00,0.00,20.88,63.24,0.90,0.00,2 .30,0.00,12.09,0.00
Portuguese,6.01,0.00,7.71,0.00,47.55,22.32,0.90,0. 10,5.01,0.00,9.71,0.70
Romanians,3.00,0.30,0.00,0.00,24.60,36.00,1.50,0.0 0,5.90,0.30,28.40,0.00
Russian,2.00,7.30,0.00,0.10,12.10,65.40,1.10,0.00, 2.00,0.80,9.20,0.00
Russian_B,0.20,2.70,0.10,0.40,13.11,66.57,0.80,0.0 0,0.60,1.20,14.31,0.00
Russian,1.80,3.00,0.00,0.00,14.11,66.47,0.40,0.00, 1.40,1.10,11.71,0.00
Sardinian,0.00,0.00,2.60,0.00,70.57,0.00,0.10,0.00 ,5.81,0.00,20.92,0.00
Saudis,3.60,0.00,1.40,0.00,2.60,0.90,0.30,2.60,67. 77,0.00,20.52,0.30
Sephardic_Jews,5.69,0.20,6.19,0.00,26.47,6.09,0.40 ,0.70,16.18,0.00,38.06,0.00
Spaniards,6.50,0.00,3.00,0.00,53.00,23.00,0.00,0.0 0,3.60,0.00,10.80,0.10
Spanish,6.21,0.00,5.11,0.00,52.55,22.72,0.20,0.00, 4.00,0.00,8.81,0.40
Swedish,7.70,0.60,0.00,0.00,32.90,56.80,0.00,0.00, 0.80,0.00,1.20,0.00
Syrians,11.41,0.20,1.50,0.00,11.61,2.70,1.30,2.90, 27.93,0.00,38.64,1.80
Turkmens,28.03,6.61,0.00,1.70,4.70,10.31,5.41,0.00 ,6.81,7.71,28.73,0.00
Turkmen_Iraq,22.27,0.67,1.16,1.07,8.73,5.64,2.04,1 .15,16.7,1.85,38.58,0.15
Turkmen_Iran,24.24,7.38,0.60,1.82,4.86,11.74,5.99, 0.06,7.48,7.61,28.14,0.08
Turkmen_Uzbekistan,19.54,13.24,0.18,2.04,6.54,12.8 6,5.08,0.05,6.49,13.96,19.93,0.07
Turk_Ahiska,19.35,0.34,0.42,0.23,7.75,8.24,0.40,0, 9.56,0.46,53.16,0.03
Turk_Anatolia,14.62,5.01,0.96,0.61,12.83,10.75,1.3 5,0.2,10.92,4.87,37.71,0.09
Turk_Northwest,12.88,6.48,1.14,0.79,14.39,14.21,1. 13,0.17,9.59,5.55,33.5,0.11
Turk_Southwest,13.7,6.04,1.17,0.56,13.69,12.02,1.3 3,0.34,10.1,5.8,35.08,0.09
Turk_West_BlackSea,13.21,4.61,0.72,0.81,14.4,12.92 ,1.24,0.06,10.47,4.49,36.98,0.03
Turk_Central_West,14.48,4.37,0.96,0.53,13.53,10.75 ,1.35,0.16,11.57,4.52,37.65,0.08
Turk_Central_East,15.68,3.8,0.89,0.55,12.23,9.33,1 .45,0.16,11.66,3.91,40.18,0.08
Turk_South,15.42,5.44,1.11,0.51,11.29,10.08,1.6,0. 28,11.37,5.1,37.52,0.23
Turk_Central_Black_Sea,14.81,5.86,0.58,0.81,11.54, 9.37,1.09,0.12,10.34,5.63,39.78,0.02
Turk_East_Black_Sea,15.19,0.80,0.39,0.13,11.01,5.2 8,0.30,0,11.25,1.17,54.42,0
Turk_Southeast,18.06,3.07,0.72,0.29,10.83,8.49,2.1 8,0.88,13.65,3.48,38.12,0.16
Turk_East,18.08,1.73,0.78,0.60,10.65,7.55,1.17,0.0 8,12.17,1.35,45.75,0.04
Ukranians,0.30,0.80,0.00,0.00,16.30,62.10,0.90,0.0 0,3.00,0.20,16.40,0.00
Valencia,6.81,0.00,3.00,0.00,55.46,22.22,0.00,0.00 ,2.40,0.00,9.91,0.20
Yemen_Jews,0.20,0.00,3.10,0.00,4.20,0.00,0.00,4.70 ,53.85,0.00,33.93,0.00
Yemenese,5.89,0.70,3.30,0.50,3.70,1.10,2.40,9.39,3 6.56,0.00,27.67,8.79
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120,7.59,0.73,0.40 ,0.00,39.57,31.32,1.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,17.73,0.86
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72,4.56,0. 00,0.00,0.00,42.85,31.92,0.69,0.89,2.30,0.31,16.30 ,0.19
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119,9.54,1.40,0.00 ,0.27,43.57,32.66,0.11,0.14,0.20,0.00,11.08,1.01
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78,10.50,0.54,0.54 ,0.00,39.10,37.12,0.00,0.35,2.04,0.00,9.53,0.28
NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_50,10.70,0.00,0.00,0.00 ,35.87,44.30,2.23,0.13,0.00,0.00,4.95,1.82
NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_2,5.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,4 0.44,41.78,1.83,0.00,1.04,0.00,8.28,0.99
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239,0.00,0.00,2.63,2.34,44. 59,28.94,2.32,0.66,0.00,0.00,18.51,0.00
IberianSettlementCataloniaSpain_I3496,5.38,0.21,0. 75,0.00,53.63,28.85,1.92,1.72,5.92,0.00,1.63,0.00
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3243,8.87,0.00,2.93,4.86,36. 62,38.06,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,8.67,0.00
ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977,2.96,0.00,2.41,0.00,5 2.45,25.53,0.60,0.00,3.19,0.00,12.86,0.00
IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9,0.89,0.00,1.25,0.00,58.14,21. 43,0.49,0.00,4.69,0.00,11.18,1.93
BellBeakerFranceI1388,0.00,0.00,2.30,0.00,59.39,21 .76,0.81,0.00,7.46,0.00,8.28,0.00
IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320,4.64,0.00,4.88,1.09,52 .24,25.19,0.00,0.00,3.67,0.00,7.44,0.86
IlercavonesCatalan_I3321,3.80,0.00,4.55,0.00,55.48 ,25.14,0.00,0.83,2.20,0.32,7.68,0.00
BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874,5.77,0.32,0.81,0.47 ,39.46,40.05,1.07,0.56,0.80,0.00,10.47,0.22
IberianElArgarBronzeAge_I8136,0.00,0.00,4.83,0.00, 61.85,21.67,1.21,0.00,3.88,0.00,6.07,0.49
BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208,1.39,0.00,5.31,0.43,5 4.53,22.97,1.16,0.00,3.96,0.94,8.35,0.95
Bavaria_BB_II5524,2.95,0.00,1.28,1.77,41.61,28.76, 0.00,0.00,3.52,0.00,20.12,0.00
BronzeAgeEngland_I2462,8.52,1.12,1.18,0.00,45.45,3 3.73,0.00,0.00,2.08,0.00,6.90,1.02
BronzeAgeOuterHebrides_I2655,9.88,0.61,0.00,0.39,3 7.20,45.77,0.76,0.00,0.29,0.00,4.27,0.82
NeolithicScotland_I2634,0.00,0.00,6.63,1.42,60.56, 11.65,0.00,0.21,7.56,0.00,11.96,0.00
I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave,0,0,2 .55,1.31,44.77,0,0,0,12.74,0,36.69,1.95
I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete,0.49,0,3.07,0,37.80,0.67,0,0,13.01,0,4 4.93,0.03
I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete,0,0,1.28,0.51,37.14,0,0,0,15.36,0,45.7 1,0
I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete,0,0,3.39,0.38,35.55,0,0,0,13.26,0,47.4 3,0
I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete,0.41,0,4.34,0,39.06,0,0,0,12.70,0,43.4 9,0
I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_La sithi_Crete,1.52,0,5.68,0,37.33,0,0,0,16.14,0,39.2 5,0.08
I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis,4. 14,0,1.89,0,36.48,4.77,0,0,8.08,1.19,43.45,0
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete,6.11,0,2.47,0,40.07 ,15.84,0,0,9.79,0.87,24.86,0
I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete,0,0,0,0,40.48,0,0,0,4.75,0,54.78,0
I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete,3.72,0.51,3.62,0,53.24,0,0,0,14.12,2.88,21.92 ,0
I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete,0,0,6.66,0,43.44,0,0,0,11.86,0,37.93,0
I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete,1.10,0,0,0,43.10,0,0,0,17.55,0,38.25,0
I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_C rete,4.59,0,0,0,33.89,0,0,0,19.71,0,41.08,0.73
I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese,0,0,3.52,1.43,38.53,7.73,0,0.65,13.96,0,34.1 9,0
I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese,1.33,1.22,3.40,0,40.19,9.10,0.52,0,7.58,0 .48,33.22,2.96
I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese,2.87,0,2.57,0,37.48,8.67,0,0.36,10.29,0,37.5 2,0.24
I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta,6.79,0,1.92,1.07,27.17,4 .07,0,0,14.65,0,42.98,1.35
I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta,9.21,0,0.11,0.47,27.71,4 .33,0,0.81,12.84,0,44.53,0
I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta,9.16,0.07,1.74,0.67,24.7 7,1.32,0,0,14.88,0,45.56,1.81

torzio
29-01-20, 06:17
mine
using post #37 data



Distance to:
Torziok12b


4.40054542
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge


4.65249395
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


4.86300319
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro


8.58770051
I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.18056238
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.18654996
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge


12.96636032
I1113_Malak_Preslavets


13.93040559
Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge


14.00105710
R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella


14.03935540
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete


14.07171987
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia


14.15126496
I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


14.20135205
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia


14.36145536
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier


14.41937585
R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica


14.47601119
I2215_Malak_Preslavets


14.47632550
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima


15.02331189
I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy


15.48482160
R851_Iron_Age_Ardea


17.08603816
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge


17.30221951
I2111_Trypillia


18.23009051
Bul4_Yamnaya_Bulgaria


18.43855743
Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge


18.51940334
I3151_Trypillia


19.88195161
ANI163_Varna_Outlier




A very clear gap of the top 3 from the others

torzio
29-01-20, 06:23
mine

using data from post # 41



Distance to:
Torziok12b


7.89459942
Bavaria_BB_II5524


8.87062568
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120


10.55301379
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72


13.52289540
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239


15.06901457
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119


15.97685201
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78


17.33912339
BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874


17.88934599
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3243


18.57029887
BronzeAgeEngland_I2462


19.37494258
ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977


20.13756440
NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_2


22.04581366
IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320


24.12289369
NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_50


24.25831198
BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208


24.66223834
IlercavonesCatalan_I3321


25.34179354
BronzeAgeOuterHebrides_I2655


26.10284276
IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9


26.46820923
IberianSettlementCataloniaSpain_I3496


28.42436631
BellBeakerFranceI1388


31.73002994
IberianElArgarBronzeAge_I8136


32.26507245
NeolithicScotland_I2634

Jovialis
29-01-20, 13:05
My first question would be why you find the analysis provided by the authors unsatisfactory? Certainly made sense to me, especially as their models have the benefit of using populations much more proximate in time and space, and they don't mix modern and ancient samples, which I think is always a bad idea.

https://i.imgur.com/OmXLLk4.png

https://i.imgur.com/G67I6Me.png

https://i.imgur.com/XcttQqn.png
Now, as to how and from where this "additional" ancestry from the Near East got into some members of Latin tribes I think we're going to have to wait and see the make-up of Bronze and Iron Age Southern Italians, and, hopefully, some Greeks from the Classical Era as well. It may well be that this type of ancestry was, as I have maintained for almost seven years now, perhaps already present there even before the time of the Greek colonization of the first millennium BC.

If we want to play around with possibilities, I would think the Sicilian Beaker would be a good place to start, since there's no genetic "Beaker" in them at all, apparently.

I agree, the study's modeling makes more sense. It doesn't make much sense to model it with modern populations, that have no real merit for even being in a viable equation.

Also, the Italian neolithic samples show Eastern influences that were not present in other Neolithic European populations, like LBK. I believe the southern half of the peninsula may have retained, and/or had it re-enforced (Greek colonization). We know now, due to this study that J2, and Iran_Neo was in Italy, even before Steppe-like ancestry, as far back as the Neolithic.

Here is a random Neolithic sample from the study, R8. Already showing close to 30% "Caucasian" in the Neolithic:

https://i.imgur.com/y3KZTlk.png

Here's another random sample, R10 showing more of the same.

https://i.imgur.com/kAw1iWu.png

All this elusive Levantine, that is popular with Eurogenes-type analysis is not found in the study. Because it is not a viable modeling.

Also, Modern Levant? Come on people, we know how mixed this part of the world is with overlapping populations that are in Europe. The influence of Anatolians since the neolithic, and copper age, the influence of Greeks and Sea peoples. At the very least, use samples roughly from the same era.

Also, modern Iberians are not a good proxy to model Ancient Romans with. During the Iron Age, Iberians were similar to the Basque, and were pulled to their current position due to eastern Mediterranean and North African sources during the Imperial and Medieval era. The Latin samples as we see, are still pretty close to where the modern Italian populations are, North to South.


We assembled genome-wide data from 271 ancient Iberians, of whom 176 are from the largely unsampled period after 2000 BCE, thereby providing a high-resolution time transect of the Iberian Peninsula. We document high genetic substructure between northwestern and southeastern hunter-gatherers before the spread of farming. We reveal sporadic contacts between Iberia and North Africa by ~2500 BCE and, by ~2000 BCE, the replacement of 40% of Iberia’s ancestry and nearly 100% of its Y-chromosomes by people with Steppe ancestry. We show that, in the Iron Age, Steppe ancestry had spread not only into Indo-European–speaking regions but also into non-Indo-European–speaking ones, and we reveal that present-day Basques are best described as a typical Iron Age population without the admixture events that later affected the rest of Iberia. Additionally, we document how, beginning at least in the Roman period, the ancestry of the peninsula was transformed by gene flow from North Africa and the eastern Mediterranean.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

Jovialis
30-01-20, 14:03
Here is a modeling of the Dodecad K12b populations with ADC 1x, with the latest version of all of the samples I've composed. R437 has a strong presence from South to Center. While Northern_Italian have a stronger affinity to R1016. While N_Italian gets a strong affinity with one of the Balkan Bronze Age samples. O_Italian gets a lot of Protovillanovan, and Tuscan, and TSI seem to get the Armenoi_Crete sample; I think Angela is right that this person probably originally came from Italy.

https://i.imgur.com/XDuYpzR.png

Angela
30-01-20, 16:58
Here is a modeling of the Dodecad K12b populations with ADC 1x, with the latest version of all of the samples I've composed. R437 has a strong presence from South to Center. While Northern_Italian have a stronger affinity to R1016. While N_Italian gets a strong affinity with one of the Balkan Bronze Age samples. O_Italian gets a lot of Protovillanovan, and Tuscan, and TSI seem to get the Armenoi_Crete sample; I think Angela is right that this person probably originally came from Italy.

https://i.imgur.com/XDuYpzR.png

Fascinating stuff, Jovialis. Great work. :)

Some things stand out right away: the Tuscans get the worst fit. I don't know why.

I also don't know why they differ that much. TSI is, I think, northwest of Florence, and the sample to which I'm always closest of the Tuscan samples. "Tuscan" must be more "southern", given the percentage of R437. Amazing that there's that much variation in one province.

The Crete Armenoi post Minoan sample is fascinating. She was a definite outlier for Crete, and at the time the paper came out I remember that the speculation was that she was a "foreign" bride. She's not Mycenaean like, however, so, why not Italy? :) That probably explains my almost life long fascination with ancient Crete! I'm joking, of course. Given all the "TSI" like samples popping up all over the Balkans, and in Pannonia as well, she could also have been from those places.

The differences between the two North Italian samples are also very interesting. I went back and checked my runs from Dodecad, and North_Italian is the Bergamo HGDP sample. N_Italian was a small group of non Bergamo Northern Italians. The most vocal members of that group were also Lombards, but from further south than Bergamo. I don't know about the rest. The Bergamo sample is slightly more northwestern than the volunteer sample.

I also think it's interesting that there's so little matching to the 11979 Parma Beaker sample, although I get a decent hit on it. I know that isn't the most steppe admixed one, and I think it may even be the least steppe admixed one. I'd have to check.

Did you include those Northwest Alpine Beaker samples? I wonder how that would change things? If there were indeed two streams into Italy, one more Balkan Bronze Age like, and one more Northern Alpine Bronze Age one, maybe we'd see them show up as well.

I was always in between the TSI or Florentine like Tuscans and the North Italians.

torzio
30-01-20, 18:10
Here is a modeling of the Dodecad K12b populations with ADC 1x, with the latest version of all of the samples I've composed. R437 has a strong presence from South to Center. While Northern_Italian have a stronger affinity to R1016. While N_Italian gets a strong affinity with one of the Balkan Bronze Age samples. O_Italian gets a lot of Protovillanovan, and Tuscan, and TSI seem to get the Armenoi_Crete sample; I think Angela is right that this person probably originally came from Italy.

https://i.imgur.com/XDuYpzR.png

your conclusion then reads that
North_Italian should represent = NorthWest Italy plus lombardy and
N_Italian should be = NorthEast Italy

for the others.......my guess is
O_Italian = Adriatic Italians, inc modern croatia and coastal slovenian lands

TSI = northern Tuscany .................Florence, Pisa and Lucca areas
Tuscan = southern Tuscany .................sienna area

Pax Augusta
30-01-20, 18:14
Here is a modeling of the Dodecad K12b populations with ADC 1x, with the latest version of all of the samples I've composed. R437 has a strong presence from South to Center. While Northern_Italian have a stronger affinity to R1016. While N_Italian gets a strong affinity with one of the Balkan Bronze Age samples. O_Italian gets a lot of Protovillanovan, and Tuscan, and TSI seem to get the Armenoi_Crete sample; I think Angela is right that this person probably originally came from Italy.


It can't prove a provenance, it's not based on IBD or ROH segments, it's based on the results on K12b and Crete Armenoi is a low quality sample. At most it suggests a similarity, assuming that K12b is accurate with ancient samples.


We don't even know archaeologically who this woman, labeled as Crete Armenoi, was.








Some things stand out right away: the Tuscans get the worst fit. I don't know why.


I also don't know why they differ that much. TSI is, I think, northwest of Florence, and the sample to which I'm always closest of the Tuscan samples. "Tuscan" must be more "southern", given the percentage of R437. Amazing that there's that much variation in one province.


The Crete Armenoi post Minoan sample is fascinating. She was a definite outlier for Crete, and at the time the paper came out I remember that the speculation was that she was a "foreign" bride. She's not Mycenaean like, however, so, why not Italy? :) That probably explains my almost life long fascination with ancient Crete! I'm joking, of course. Given all the "TSI" like samples popping up all over the Balkans, and in Pannonia as well, she could also have been from those places.



It is not known where TSI comes from precisely (some Italian users think it comes from Sesto Fiorentino, in Italian newspapers when TSI was collected there was talk of genetic analysis in Antella and other places around Bagno a Ripoli, then southeast of Florence), and the average in K12b is called TSI30 and is based on 21 individuals.








The differences between the two North Italian samples are also very interesting. I went back and checked my runs from Dodecad, and North_Italian is the Bergamo HGDP sample. N_Italian was a small group of non Bergamo Northern Italians. The most vocal members of that group were also Lombards, but from further south than Bergamo. I don't know about the rest. The Bergamo sample is slightly more northwestern than the volunteer sample..




In N_Italian_D there are very likely also northern eastern Italians.

Angela
30-01-20, 18:34
your conclusion then reads that
North_Italian should represent = NorthWest Italy plus lombardy and
N_Italian should be = NorthEast Italy

for the others.......my guess is
O_Italian = Adriatic Italians, inc modern croatia and coastal slovenian lands

TSI = northern Tuscany .................Florence, Pisa and Lucca areas
Tuscan = southern Tuscany .................sienna area

I guess you didn't see my post. How could N_Italian be North East Italy when I just related that two of the five members of that group were Lombards? If the other three were from Northeast Italy, I don't know, but probably at least one was from Friuli-A. Squecco. Perhaps you're another one if you volunteered your data to Dienekes. I don't know about the 5th one.

So, all we could say is mixed North Italian.

Angela
30-01-20, 18:41
As for Crete Armenoi, as I mentioned upthread we indeed don't know her provenance. To repeat, given how many "TSI like" samples pop up all over, she could have been from Italy, the Balkans etc.
Then there's the fact that it's a low quality sample to consider.

I think that to get a clearer picture of affinities, both the Northern Alpine, German Bavarian samples and the Balkan samples should be included in analyses. To use just one or the other may skew the analysis.

torzio
30-01-20, 18:45
I guess you didn't see my post. How could N_Italian be North East Italy when I just related that two of the five members of that group were Lombards. If the other three were from Northeast Italy, I don't know, but probably at least one was from Friuli-A. Squecco. Perhaps you're another one if you volunteered your data to Dienekes. I don't know about the 5th one.

I will speak with Adriano as I have known him for many years ...............he is related via my wife's line somewhere and we are still looking, maybe from Villach southern Austria near italy............last chat December 2019

As for lombards ...........are they all Bergamo based ...........my guess would be Brescia or Cremona ones are different

I tried many years ago ( 6) with Dienekes ...........he was more or appeared to be more interested in O_Italians that came via Vienna lands and beyond

Angela
30-01-20, 18:55
I will speak with Adriano as I have known him for many years ...............he is related via my wife's line somewhere and we are still looking, maybe from Villach southern Austria near italy............last chat December 2019

As for lombards ...........are they all Bergamo based ...........my guess would be Brescia or Cremona ones are different

I tried many years ago ( 6) with Dienekes ...........he was more or appeared to be more interested in O_Italians that came via Vienna lands and beyond

I only remember one of the surnames. It appears to be from just northwest of Milano.
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?t=cognomi&cognome=Bolgeri&x=9&y=11#.XjMI-WhKhPY

Angela
30-01-20, 19:19
Has anyone worked with the Irlach and Alburg Bell Beaker samples from Southern Germany?
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/863944v1.full.pdf

Dou
30-01-20, 19:55
Has anyone worked with the Irlach and Alburg Bell Beaker samples from Southern Germany?https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/863944v1.full.pdf

Recently I discovered that one of my great-great-grandparents has this last name apparently of North-Italia:
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?t=cognomi&cognome=salina&x=0&y=0#.XjMWf2hKjIU

Do you know of any website where you could find information?

torzio
30-01-20, 21:54
I only remember one of the surnames. It appears to be from just northwest of Milano.
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?t=cognomi&cognome=Bolgeri&x=9&y=11#.XjMI-WhKhPY

There are only 11 households in italy with that surname.....6 come from lomvardy , of which Varese is the main town,...especially places clivio and viggiu

Angela
30-01-20, 22:21
Recently I discovered that one of my great-great-grandparents has this last name apparently of North-Italia:
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?t=cognomi&cognome=salina&x=0&y=0#.XjMWf2hKjIU

Do you know of any website where you could find information?

Cognomix sometimes has information. In this case, Salina does appear. It's sort of a mixed bag, however. There are Lombard, Campanian, Sicilian branches etc. I don't know if all the Lombard Salina's actually have all their ancestry from Lombardia or some are of Southern Italian ancestry who moved north in the great migration which began in the 1950s.

At any rate there's a branch in Messina, one in Campania which might be traced to the Gens Sallia, as are the ones in Lombardia, and which can be found in Varese, Pavia, and Milano.

https://www.cognomix.it/origine-cognome/salina.php

Ygorcs
30-01-20, 23:28
Here is a modeling of the Dodecad K12b populations with ADC 1x, with the latest version of all of the samples I've composed. R437 has a strong presence from South to Center. While Northern_Italian have a stronger affinity to R1016. While N_Italian gets a strong affinity with one of the Balkan Bronze Age samples. O_Italian gets a lot of Protovillanovan, and Tuscan, and TSI seem to get the Armenoi_Crete sample; I think Angela is right that this person probably originally came from Italy.

https://i.imgur.com/XDuYpzR.png

I have found the results of genetic ancestry models in Vahaduo far less reliable and plausible than using nMonte.R software directly. I'd recommend a bit of caution using it. Maybe that's because unlike nMonte2 it doesn't show a restricted mode in which it'd try to achieve only the best fit at the same as using a more moderate number of reference populations instead of using all possible reference samples to have the best fit possible.

Angela
31-01-20, 00:09
I have found the results of genetic ancestry models in Vahaduo far less reliable and plausible than using nMonte.R software directly. I'd recommend a bit of caution using it. Maybe that's because unlike nMonte2 it doesn't show a restricted mode in which it'd try to achieve only the best fit at the same as using a more moderate number of reference populations instead of using all possible reference samples to have the best fit possible.

I'll let Jovialis speak for himself if he chooses and when he has time, but could you be a bit more specific? In particular, how do you know it's more reliable? What's the objective standard as to whether a certain result is "better" than others?

I'm not trying to be provocative at all. I think we need objective criteria. Present company excepted, of course, it has too often seemed to me that the "modeling" has tended to support the creator's "intuition" or "hypothesis" if "bias" is too negatively loaded a word. It may all even be unconscious.

As to "best fits", I often think that in trying to get really low fits, people throw anything into the hopper, which may not only result in "over-fits", but in historically implausible scenarios.

In terms of using more "moderate" numbers of reference populations, I'm not sure that's such a good idea. Whenever someone is choosing the samples some bias can creep in, or it may just be a case that they don't know of, or have thought of other possibly good sources. If we are interested in exploring the source of the steppe admixture in Italy, and we use only South German steppe admixed samples, and not Balkan steppe admixed samples as well, some important clues might be missed.

Or, take the case of the Parma Beaker samples. If the analysis only used the most steppe admixed sample it might skew the analysis one way; if the one with very little steppe is used it skews it another. Instead, it might be the third which is the better fit. Now, when the samples from a certain site are very homogeneous it wouldn't matter, but in some cases that isn't the situation.

This is why, imo, so much of the modeling has been really wrong, mostly, it's true, when using modern samples, but also even when using ancient samples.

My instinct has always been that the more samples (within reason) the better, and the less human "interference" the better.

brick
31-01-20, 00:13
I have found the results of genetic ancestry models in Vahaduo far less reliable and plausible than using nMonte.R software directly. I'd recommend a bit of caution using it. Maybe that's because unlike nMonte2 it doesn't show a restricted mode in which it'd try to achieve only the best fit at the same as using a more moderate number of reference populations instead of using all possible reference samples to have the best fit possible. 

The main cause of implausible results are the models themselves. With wrong models that are not based on ancestral components, one can try to support the less plausible theories.

Just by changing the models a little, the peaks of the ancient samples change a lot.

Dodecad K12b

Italian Bell Beaker + Mycenaeans + Minoans + Crete Armenoi

https://i.imgur.com/M8LxQ9J.png https://i.imgur.com/ea5VfPv.png

brick
31-01-20, 00:50
Here is a modeling of the Dodecad K12b populations with ADC 1x, with the latest version of all of the samples I've composed. R437 has a strong presence from South to Center. While Northern_Italian have a stronger affinity to R1016. While N_Italian gets a strong affinity with one of the Balkan Bronze Age samples. O_Italian gets a lot of Protovillanovan, and Tuscan, and TSI seem to get the Armenoi_Crete sample; I think Angela is right that this person probably originally came from Italy.

https://i.imgur.com/XDuYpzR.png


You've chosen ADD DIST COL 1. It's too much, in my opinion. It inflates some results.

By reducing this value, the results change a bit.


DIST COL 0.5



https://i.imgur.com/pezrpRN.png


DIST COL 0.25

https://i.imgur.com/PIFtjFK.png




DIST COL 0


https://i.imgur.com/G8wwQN0.png

Angela
31-01-20, 01:38
You've chosen ADD DIST COL 1. It's too much, in my opinion. It inflates some results.

By reducing this value, the results change a bit.


DIST COL 0.5



https://i.imgur.com/pezrpRN.png


DIST COL 0.25

https://i.imgur.com/PIFtjFK.png




DIST COL 0


https://i.imgur.com/G8wwQN0.png

Your last chart has R850 Iron Age Ardea and then 851 as well.

brick
31-01-20, 02:56
Your last chart has R850 Iron Age Ardea and then 851 as well.

Print Zeroes - No

There are always the same ancient samples in the source, but only in the last chart R851 appears to a sample in the target (North_Italian), so you can't see R851 in the other two charts.


Print Zeroes - Yes

0.5x

https://i.imgur.com/KBBu6Mn.png


0.25x

https://i.imgur.com/8FUqu0m.png


0


https://i.imgur.com/ZplOi74.png

Jovialis
31-01-20, 05:54
I have found the results of genetic ancestry models in Vahaduo far less reliable and plausible than using nMonte.R software directly. I'd recommend a bit of caution using it. Maybe that's because unlike nMonte2 it doesn't show a restricted mode in which it'd try to achieve only the best fit at the same as using a more moderate number of reference populations instead of using all possible reference samples to have the best fit possible.

Though, the models are all dependent on the samples that are being used. I just recently uploaded new coordinates for Ancient Near Eastern populations. I like to personally verify each sample, by downloading them straight from the official source on ebi.ac.uk. Which I convert to usable raw data, all in a consistent format (AncestryDNA). The real fruits of my labor are the raw data notepad files I am producing. Dodecad K12b is just one of the calculators I can utilize for analysis of these files on Admixture Studio. I hope that one day I can use an up-to-date calculator that is based on all of the genetic science on Ancient DNA. Basically one, which uses Ancient DNA sources as the components of which to go by. I haven't used nMonte. R software, but if there is a way for the program to read the raw data files, I could utilize them there too for analysis.

Ygorcs
02-02-20, 00:07
I'll let Jovialis speak for himself if he chooses and when he has time, but could you be a bit more specific? In particular, how do you know it's more reliable? What's the objective standard as to whether a certain result is "better" than others?

I'm not trying to be provocative at all. I think we need objective criteria. Present company excepted, of course, it has too often seemed to me that the "modeling" has tended to support the creator's "intuition" or "hypothesis" if "bias" is too negatively loaded a word. It may all even be unconscious.

Basically I noticed that because, using many possible reference populations in certain models, including populations that are extremely unlikely to have contributed to a certain DNA sample (say, an early Subsaharan African or an early Southeast Asian sample vis à vis a DNA sample from North Italy), the Vahaduo results would give a few percentages to such highly implausible reference populations in their best fit models, whereas using nMonte2 software those really weird results (from a geographical and historical point of view) appear far, far less frequently, and generally using the same reference populations the results given were far more credible, with less numerous, but much closer and more plausible reference populations picked by the software to give a model with a better, but still credible fit.

Angela
02-02-20, 00:25
Interesting. I've yet to see any result like that showing up, but perhaps that's because Jovialis has kept the input to West Eurasian mesolithic samples, when he's included them at all.

Of course, the more tools the better. No one tool is going to be perfect or provide all the answers.

Ygorcs
02-02-20, 00:46
Interesting. I've yet to see any result like that showing up, but perhaps that's because Jovialis has kept the input to West Eurasian mesolithic samples, when he's included them at all.

Of course, the more tools the better. No one tool is going to be perfect or provide all the answers.

Yes, I agree. These models - even those made by professional geneticists and published in their papers - should always be seen as clues to be interpreted in combination with other data and non-genetic evidences, as hints that help us get a clearer picture, and not as some kind of objective received truth.

Jovialis
05-02-20, 00:23
https://i.imgur.com/5rT1g8u.png

I posted this in the Vahaduo thread, but it is also relevant here. Italian Iron age, Medieval, and Modern samples, using the Dodecad K12b coordinates in Past3 PCA software.

A. Papadimitriou
06-02-20, 22:16
The people from Civitavechia could have had admixture from groups other than the Etruscans and Carthaginians.

In general I am skeptical about ALL the labels, but either way no one should assume that the people from Civitavecchia were similar to proto-Etruscans.

Personally I assume that proto-'Etruscans', as an ethnic group formed inside Tuscany but they descended from people further north.

The ancient sources were pointing to an early movement of Italic speakers AND to other movements from the southeast during the Bronze Age.

Osco-Umbrian samples would be more informative than Latin or 'Latin'.

Angela
06-02-20, 22:46
The people from Civitavechia could have had admixture from groups other than the Etruscans and Carthaginians.

In general I am skeptical about ALL the labels, but either way no one should assume that the people from Civitavecchia were similar to proto-Etruscans.

Personally I assume that proto-'Etruscans', as an ethnic group formed inside Tuscany but they descended from people further north.

The ancient sources were pointing to an early movement of Italic speakers AND to other movements from the southeast during the Bronze Age.

Osco-Umbrian samples would be more informative than Latin or 'Latin'.

I don't understand your terminology. The people in Civitavecchia were Etruscans. There's no reason to assume they were anything else. Now, whether those Etruscans will prove slightly different from Etruscans in other areas I don't know. I think we've seen from other situations that it can take a long time for admixtures to stabilize. Maybe further north they were a bit more "northern".

Regardless, they present as a combination of EEF "like" farmers admixed with a steppe admixed population. To know what their steppe ancestors were like upon arrival in Italy we'd need older samples, and we'd probably find them further north.

As for the North African admixed Etruscan, we don't have enough information to label that ancestry "Carthaginian". It was perhaps a grandparent, so back date the admixture accordingly. Nor should we assume that this was other than a one off.

The fact remains that Herodotus was wrong, and everyone who relied so heavily on him was wrong. The ancestors of the Etruscans were the local farmers and steppe admixed people from the north.

Yes, there was most probably Bronze Age migration from the southeast into Italy before the Iron Age, but that wasn't an important element in the Etruscans from what we can see so far. No do we know the size of that migration.

torzio
07-02-20, 00:29
The people from Civitavechia could have had admixture from groups other than the Etruscans and Carthaginians.

In general I am skeptical about ALL the labels, but either way no one should assume that the people from Civitavecchia were similar to proto-Etruscans.

Personally I assume that proto-'Etruscans', as an ethnic group formed inside Tuscany but they descended from people further north.

The ancient sources were pointing to an early movement of Italic speakers AND to other movements from the southeast during the Bronze Age.

Osco-Umbrian samples would be more informative than Latin or 'Latin'.

Carthage and its phoenician settlers only began 810bc.....do you mean these people or earlier

A. Papadimitriou
07-02-20, 02:09
I don't understand your terminology. The people in Civitavecchia were Etruscans. There's no reason to assume they were anything else. Now, whether those Etruscans will prove slightly different from Etruscans in other areas I don't know. I think we've seen from other situations that it can take a long time for admixtures to stabilize. Maybe further north they were a bit more "northern".

Regardless, they present as a combination of EEF "like" farmers admixed with a steppe admixed population. To know what their steppe ancestors were like upon arrival in Italy we'd need older samples, and we'd probably find them further north.

As for the North African admixed Etruscan, we don't have enough information to label that ancestry "Carthaginian". It was perhaps a grandparent, so back date the admixture accordingly. Nor should we assume that this was other than a one off.

The fact remains that Herodotus was wrong, and everyone who relied so heavily on him was wrong. The ancestors of the Etruscans were the local farmers and steppe admixed people from the north.

Yes, there was most probably Bronze Age migration from the southeast into Italy before the Iron Age, but that wasn't an important element in the Etruscans from what we can see so far. No do we know the size of that migration.

Herodotus is misinterpreted AND wrong in that case but either way, I was always in favor of a local or better a Central European origin.

But I place importance on the account of Dionysius of Halikarnassus. As I have written here in the past close reading of the text points to a movement of 'Pelasgians' from the South-East during the Bronze Age (following a route along the Adriatic I think) before the movement of Tyrrhenians-proper from the north, certainly after the so called 'Bronze Age collapse'. // On the other hand, the Osco-Umbrians are perceived as a very old ethnic group in Italy, while in Northern and Central Italy there appear to have been other groups of uncertain linguistic affiliation like the Sicels and the Ligurians too.

I do NOT take ANYTHING written in ancient texts literally, but I read them carefully.

I believe the Pelasgians of the ancient sources were an IE group, at least broadly similar to 'Mycenaeans' genetically (Herodotus places the origin of BOTH 'Pelasgians' and 'Hellenes' in Thessaly). And one speculation that I had made is that classical Etruscans descended patrilineary mainly from the people of the prehistoric pile dwellings around the Alps.

Dionysius believed that they took their name from the WOODEN structures they were making ('high wooden palisades resembling towers'), supposedly the FIRST to make these in Italy. The most important thing about ancient sources is not if they are 100% factually correct.

Maciamo talked about 'Carthaginians'. It was a response to him. I don't know anything about the history of Civitavecchia in particular but I know that there were other people in the region other than those he mentioned.

I am not willing to make a debate on this issue currently.

Angela
07-02-20, 03:02
^^I don't see anything there but speculation upon speculation, and built partly upon another ancient author who was no doubt also just relaying rumor and, in his case, his own biases and his desire to reconcile the Greeks to Roman rule. So, I think it's a good idea for you not to debate it.

To expect ancient authors to be ethnographers or geographers in the sense we know them today is, imo, a very mistaken notion.

A. Papadimitriou
07-02-20, 16:33
^^I don't see anything there but speculation upon speculation, and built partly upon another ancient author who was no doubt also just relaying rumor and, in his case, his own biases and his desire to reconcile the Greeks to Roman rule. So, I think it's a good idea for you not to debate it.


To expect ancient authors to be ethnographers or geographers in the sense we know them today is, imo, a very mistaken notion.

Either way, there were people with a tradition of lake dwellings, stilt houses etc. That is archaeologically supported. These were essentially 'Italici' of Pigorini.

One interesting thing about the account of Dionysius of Halikarnassus, that I noticed myself while reading the PRIMARY source, is that according to him the Tyrrhenians *likely* took their name as a result of them being the FIRST to build "high WOODEN palisades resembling towers" in Italy. The most important thing about that is NOT if that is factually correct.

The speculation of mine is that the Etruscans would descend patrilineary primarily from these people. Essentially Andrea Cardarelli tries to support something similar to what I was thinking without knowing anything about him or his work but he does it in a way that it is bad in my opinion but you can read his arguments.

Maybe what I say is wrong an Pigorini was correct. Or Edoardo Brizio? I am not willing to debate it because I am waiting for more data.

Bucket
10-02-20, 13:30
I don't understand your terminology. The people in Civitavecchia were Etruscans. There's no reason to assume they were anything else. Now, whether those Etruscans will prove slightly different from Etruscans in other areas I don't know. I think we've seen from other situations that it can take a long time for admixtures to stabilize. Maybe further north they were a bit more "northern".

Regardless, they present as a combination of EEF "like" farmers admixed with a steppe admixed population. To know what their steppe ancestors were like upon arrival in Italy we'd need older samples, and we'd probably find them further north.

As for the North African admixed Etruscan, we don't have enough information to label that ancestry "Carthaginian". It was perhaps a grandparent, so back date the admixture accordingly. Nor should we assume that this was other than a one off.

The fact remains that Herodotus was wrong, and everyone who relied so heavily on him was wrong. The ancestors of the Etruscans were the local farmers and steppe admixed people from the north.

Yes, there was most probably Bronze Age migration from the southeast into Italy before the Iron Age, but that wasn't an important element in the Etruscans from what we can see so far. No do we know the size of that migration.
Yes the Anatolian theory is sadly still held up even by many otherwise respectable historians, maybe it's not going to be straightforward to explain how such a Indoeuropean looking population ended up speaking a non IE language(although I've seen fringe theories claiming Etruscans were somehow IE, honestly the more I read the less I'm sure of) but it's going to make tons more sense than believing any random ancient migration theory.

Angela
10-02-20, 18:44
Yes the Anatolian theory is sadly still held up even by many otherwise respectable historians, maybe it's not going to be straightforward to explain how such a Indoeuropean looking population ended up speaking a non IE language(although I've seen fringe theories claiming Etruscans were somehow IE, honestly the more I read the less I'm sure of) but it's going to make tons more sense than believing any random ancient migration theory.

We know what Bronze and Iron Age Anatolians looked like genetically, and they weren't a founding population of the Etruscans. There's no getting around it, no matter how attached people were to the Herodotus tale or how much they don't want to admit they were wrong.

They're also not some "Pelasgian" group that moved over from Greece. Italy had its own Middle to Late Neolithic farmers, thank you very much, no need to import some from elsewhere. :) Also, there's the WHG and steppe ancestry to consider.

Whether a Bronze Age population from Greece and/or Anatolia, followed by an Iron Age migration during the Magna Graecia period made its way to southern Italy and then up the peninsula is another question, as is whether the "locals" were already pretty similar anyway.

"Ci vuole un po' di pazienza", as we say. :)

None of that has anything to do with the Etruscans.

As for the language, well, I've yet to hear an explanation for the R1b Basques speaking a non-Indo-European language either.