Analysing Iron Age Italian samples

Angela · Jan 29, 2020

Jovialis said:
Here are the Iron age samples vs all of the other samples I composed, up until the Iron Age:

Distance to: R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
7.35068024 I3151_Trypillia
8.76047373 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
9.09492716 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
9.45085710 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
9.68979876 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.22361971 I2110_Trypillia
10.55012322 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
10.69418534 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.07581148 I2111_Trypillia
11.10573726 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
11.73281296 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
11.86617040 I1926_Trypillia
11.93298370 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
11.95698122 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.09002895 I1295_Malak_Preslavets
12.25331384 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
12.57254549 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
13.06662925 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
14.70167337 ANI160_Varna_Outlier
15.60879880 I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic
15.69832794 I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic
15.99142270 I2440_Globular_Amphora
16.00827286 I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic
16.41852003 ANI159_ANI181_Varna
17.61280784 I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic

Distance to: R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
3.98938592 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
9.18398606 I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.69891583 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.18047208 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
12.27822056 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.32561560 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.78267186 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
14.57795253 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
15.27564401 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
15.91312980 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
16.52904111 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
16.88675813 I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
17.72015801 I2111_Trypillia
17.85182624 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
17.88307300 I3151_Trypillia
19.51211931 Bul4_Yamnaya_Bulgaria
19.52825133 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
20.81853981 I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
21.26791480 ANI159_ANI181_Varna
21.48199246 I1295_Malak_Preslavets
21.48879475 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
22.59939380 ANI163_Varna_Outlier
22.90999345 I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
22.98291974 I2110_Trypillia
23.52690800 I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic

Distance to: R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
5.90466765 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.39762124 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.71334558 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
8.13312363 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
8.35159266 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
8.37548805 I2111_Trypillia
8.72612743 I3151_Trypillia
9.37365457 I2110_Trypillia
9.76218725 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
9.95499874 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.52312216 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
10.72228520 I1926_Trypillia
11.05433851 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
11.10513395 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.40769915 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.85190702 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
11.99557418 I1295_Malak_Preslavets
12.39624540 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
14.56524631 ANI160_Varna_Outlier
14.83928570 I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic
15.12514463 I2440_Globular_Amphora
15.68691174 I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic
15.79446739 ANI159_ANI181_Varna
15.87163823 I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic
17.14077595 I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic

Distance to: R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
5.23807216 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.33017053 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
7.88686249 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
8.15739542 I2111_Trypillia
8.17621551 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
8.33299466 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
8.84239786 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
9.36587423 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
9.83392089 I3151_Trypillia
10.07499380 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.18056482 I2110_Trypillia
10.61650131 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.62080505 I1926_Trypillia
11.21283639 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.59367931 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
12.06694245 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
12.55335015 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
13.34862165 I1295_Malak_Preslavets
14.53531217 I2440_Globular_Amphora
14.89616394 ANI160_Varna_Outlier
15.12287340 I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic
16.46113909 ANI159_ANI181_Varna
16.75412487 I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic
16.95964327 I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
17.28357023 I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic

Distance to: R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
5.74122809 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
9.65161126 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.61332653 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.90744700 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
11.18787737 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
11.81452496 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
12.33373423 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
12.54336877 I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.68957840 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
13.05530161 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
14.00343886 I2111_Trypillia
14.45190299 I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
14.92140074 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
16.12808730 I3151_Trypillia
16.50133328 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
16.56924561 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
19.25042597 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
19.48904564 I2110_Trypillia
19.91931977 I1926_Trypillia
20.60890342 I1295_Malak_Preslavets
21.63774711 ANI159_ANI181_Varna
22.12422428 Bul4_Yamnaya_Bulgaria
22.31793673 ANI163_Varna_Outlier
22.36372286 I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic
22.86688654 I2440_Globular_Amphora

Distance to: R475_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
13.09405590 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.33166531 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
13.49426545 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.88860684 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
14.05401010 ANI159_ANI181_Varna
14.09213965 I2111_Trypillia
15.26023263 I4089_Balkans_Chalcolithic
15.28873441 I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic
15.28887177 I2424_Balkans_Chalcolithic
15.61965429 I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
15.83670736 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
15.90954116 I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
15.92678247 I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic
16.11320576 I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic
16.53829495 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
16.77566690 I1295_Malak_Preslavets
17.01953290 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
17.11525051 I2427_Balkans_Chalcolithic
17.52946092 I2423_Balkans_Chalcolithic
17.60192035 I2426_Balkans_Chalcolithic
17.62203734 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
17.96744556 I1109_Malak_Preslavets
18.63348330 I2509_Balkans_Chalcolithic
18.71979701 ASH068_Iron_Age1
18.78957158 I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese

Distance to: R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata
7.64113866 I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
9.80721673 I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
10.52248070 I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
10.75826194 ASH068_Iron_Age1
12.08184175 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
13.31058977 I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
14.03341726 I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
14.17018701 ANI159_ANI181_Varna
14.77072781 I0679_Krepost_Neolithic
14.92823164 I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
15.25588411 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
15.46300747 I2427_Balkans_Chalcolithic
15.54781014 I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
15.85167499 I2424_Balkans_Chalcolithic
16.55914551 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
16.59398084 I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
16.69271697 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
17.21921020 I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic
17.50940319 I3709_Peloponnese_Neolithic
17.54941879 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
17.57468634 I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic
17.63260616 I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
17.64726608 I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
17.68089364 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
17.88896028 I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete

Distance to: R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella
2.14441134 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
6.97894691 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
7.11525825 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
9.01150931 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
11.23877217 I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
12.23966911 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.58203961 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
14.33947349 I3151_Trypillia
14.91302116 I2111_Trypillia
15.69331705 I2440_Globular_Amphora
15.79126974 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
16.52166154 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
16.61040638 I2403_Globular_Amphora
16.70247886 I1926_Trypillia
16.79514513 Bul8_Balkans_BronzeAge
17.15141977 I2110_Trypillia
18.74883196 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
18.78495142 I2433_Globular_Amphora
18.87954978 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
19.18714674 I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge
19.26961338 I2441_Globular_Amphora
19.51294186 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
19.89261672 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
20.68005319 I2434_Globular_Amphora
21.55101854 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic

Distance to: R851_Iron_Age_Ardea
7.12745396 I3151_Trypillia
8.31362737 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
8.94475265 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
9.73866521 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
10.11018299 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.14648708 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
11.57587146 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
11.68067207 I2110_Trypillia
11.81369967 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.75417971 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.96713538 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.14383886 I1926_Trypillia
13.18246183 I2111_Trypillia
14.07380901 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
14.47627369 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
14.86646226 I2440_Globular_Amphora
15.59638740 I1295_Malak_Preslavets
15.78815062 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
15.94750451 I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
16.54377224 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
17.91801607 ANI160_Varna_Outlier
18.25397217 I2433_Globular_Amphora
18.68158184 I2441_Globular_Amphora
18.77697526 I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic
19.37577611 I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic

Distance to: R850_Iron_Age_Ardea
9.70182457 I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
10.36232599 ASH067_Iron_Age1
11.27515410 I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
11.91529269 I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
16.20714966 ASH066_Iron_Age1
16.78097137 I0679_Krepost_Neolithic
17.50239984 ASH034_Late_Bronze_Age
17.83166846 I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
17.89449636 ASH029_Late_Bronze_Age
18.04525422 I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
18.45507518 I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
19.90462509 I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
20.20018812 I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
20.34773206 ASH033_Late_Bronze_Age
20.65300220 I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
20.92920448 ASH068_Iron_Age1
21.11986032 ASH008_Iron_Age2
21.14818668 I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
21.43323587 I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
22.19379192 I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
22.37594691 ASH087_Iron_Age2
22.54875606 I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
23.36968977 I3709_Peloponnese_Neolithic
24.84876858 KFH2_KfarHaHoresh_PPNB
25.05676356 I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily

Distance to: R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica
6.69770856 I3151_Trypillia
9.72555911 I2215_Malak_Preslavets
9.81126393 I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.30931133 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
10.38576911 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.45481229 I1113_Malak_Preslavets
11.41484998 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.43899034 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.04413965 I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
12.20604768 I2110_Trypillia
12.28929209 I1297_Malak_Preslavets
12.79157535 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.04577326 I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
13.42683879 I2111_Trypillia
14.22975755 I1926_Trypillia
14.38184967 I1295_Malak_Preslavets
14.64225392 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
14.87163407 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
17.02191529 I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
17.12151862 I2440_Globular_Amphora
17.40549339 ANI160_Varna_Outlier
18.13532189 I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic
18.77317235 I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic
18.86425191 I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic
19.09591579 ANI159_ANI181_Varna

Did you include these, Jovialis? I ask because of a discussion I'm having with Ygorcs about whether there was a British Bronze Age or Iberian or North Alpine pull in these samples.

Just for the heck of it I added them. (If some are post Iron Age, please let me know and I'll remove them.)

NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120,7.59,0.73,0.40,0.00,39.57,31.32,1.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,17.73,0.86
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72,4.56,0.00,0.00,0.00,42.85,31.92,0.69,0.89,2.30,0.31,16.30,0.19
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119,9.54,1.40,0.00,0.27,43.57,32.66,0.11,0.14,0.20,0.00,11.08,1.01
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78,10.50,0.54,0.54,0.00,39.10,37.12,0.00,0.35,2.04,0.00,9.53,0.28
NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_50,10.70,0.00,0.00,0.00,35.87,44.30,2.23,0.13,0.00,0.00,4.95,1.82
NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_2,5.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,40.44,41.78,1.83,0.00,1.04,0.00,8.28,0.99
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239,0.00,0.00,2.63,2.34,44.59,28.94,2.32,0.66,0.00,0.00,18.51,0.00
IberianSettlementCataloniaSpain_I3496,5.38,0.21,0.75,0.00,53.63,28.85,1.92,1.72,5.92,0.00,1.63,0.00
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3243,8.87,0.00,2.93,4.86,36.62,38.06,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,8.67,0.00
ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977,2.96,0.00,2.41,0.00,52.45,25.53,0.60,0.00,3.19,0.00,12.86,0.00
IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9,0.89,0.00,1.25,0.00,58.14,21.43,0.49,0.00,4.69,0.00,11.18,1.93
BellBeakerFranceI1388,0.00,0.00,2.30,0.00,59.39,21.76,0.81,0.00,7.46,0.00,8.28,0.00
IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320,4.64,0.00,4.88,1.09,52.24,25.19,0.00,0.00,3.67,0.00,7.44,0.86
IlercavonesCatalan_I3321,3.80,0.00,4.55,0.00,55.48,25.14,0.00,0.83,2.20,0.32,7.68,0.00
BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874,5.77,0.32,0.81,0.47,39.46,40.05,1.07,0.56,0.80,0.00,10.47,0.22
IberianElArgarBronzeAge_I8136,0.00,0.00,4.83,0.00,61.85,21.67,1.21,0.00,3.88,0.00,6.07,0.49
BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208,1.39,0.00,5.31,0.43,54.53,22.97,1.16,0.00,3.96,0.94,8.35,0.95
Bavaria_BB_II5524,2.95,0.00,1.28,1.77,41.61,28.76,0.00,0.00,3.52,0.00,20.12,0.00
BronzeAgeEngland_I2462,8.52,1.12,1.18,0.00,45.45,33.73,0.00,0.00,2.08,0.00,6.90,1.02
BronzeAgeOuterHebrides_I2655,9.88,0.61,0.00,0.39,37.20,45.77,0.76,0.00,0.29,0.00,4.27,0.82
NeolithicScotland_I2634,0.00,0.00,6.63,1.42,60.56,11.65,0.00,0.21,7.56,0.00,11.96,0.00

Same samples:

R473 Etruscan

Distance to:	R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
5.23807216	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.33017053	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
7.88686249	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
8.15739542	I2111_Trypillia
8.17621551	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
8.33299466	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
8.84239786	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
9.36587423	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
9.46015856	Bavaria_BB_II5524
9.83392089	I3151_Trypillia
10.07499380	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.18056482	I2110_Trypillia
10.61650131	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.62080505	I1926_Trypillia
10.62551175	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
10.84815192	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
11.21283639	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.59367931	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
12.06694245	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
12.55335015	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
12.55979299	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
13.34862165	I1295_Malak_Preslavets
14.53531217	I2440_Globular_Amphora
14.54483757	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9

Bavaria BB did show up, but at a further distance than the Balkan samples. Same for the Spanish samples which show up.

R474 Etruscan...This one has good hits to the German BB and North Alpine samples

Distance to:	R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
5.74122809	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
6.77580991	Bavaria_BB_II5524
8.72072818	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
9.30280603	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
9.65161126	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.61332653	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.90744700	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
11.18787737	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
11.81452496	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
11.82549788	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
12.33373423	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
12.54336877	I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.68957840	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
13.05530161	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.21538876	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119
14.00343886	I2111_Trypillia
14.45190299	I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
14.92140074	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
15.52350798	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
15.70083756	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78
16.12808730	I3151_Trypillia
16.32355047	BronzeAgeEngland_I2462
16.50133328	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
16.56924561	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
17.55443819	BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874

R1015 Etruscan-more Balkan Bronze Age heavy

Distance to:	R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
5.90466765	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.39762124	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.71334558	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
8.13312363	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
8.35159266	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
8.37548805	I2111_Trypillia
8.72612743	I3151_Trypillia
9.37365457	I2110_Trypillia
9.64178925	Bavaria_BB_II5524
9.76218725	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
9.95499874	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.42357424	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
10.52312216	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
10.70558733	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
10.72228520	I1926_Trypillia
11.05433851	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
11.10513395	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.40769915	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.85190702	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
11.99557418	I1295_Malak_Preslavets
12.39624540	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
13.15312510	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
14.56524631	ANI160_Varna_Outlier
14.83928570	I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic
14.89781192	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9

R1016 Roman-the only upper class sample-again, closer to Bronze Age Balkans

Distance to:	R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
7.35068024	I3151_Trypillia
8.76047373	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
9.09492716	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
9.45085710	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
9.68979876	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.22361971	I2110_Trypillia
10.45816906	Bavaria_BB_II5524
10.55012322	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
10.69418534	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.99995000	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
11.07581148	I2111_Trypillia
11.10573726	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
11.18283506	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
11.73281296	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
11.86617040	I1926_Trypillia
11.93298370	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
11.95698122	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.09002895	I1295_Malak_Preslavets
12.25331384	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
12.57254549	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
13.06662925	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.48874716	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
14.70167337	ANI160_Varna_Outlier
14.73282050	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
15.32862681	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9

Boville Ernica-Bavarian BB and a Spanish sample show up relatively early

Distance to:	R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica
6.69770856	I3151_Trypillia
7.95362182	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
8.44269507	Bavaria_BB_II5524
9.72555911	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
9.81126393	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.30931133	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
10.38576911	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.45481229	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
10.87415284	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
11.41484998	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.43899034	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
11.56217540	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
12.04413965	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
12.20604768	I2110_Trypillia
12.28929209	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
12.79157535	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.04577326	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
13.36867982	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
13.42683879	I2111_Trypillia
14.22975755	I1926_Trypillia
14.38184967	I1295_Malak_Preslavets
14.64225392	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
14.87163407	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
16.00559902	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
16.21570535	IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320

Distance to:	R851_Iron_Age_Ardea
7.12745396	I3151_Trypillia
7.74215732	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
8.31362737	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
8.37911093	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
8.94475265	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
8.99763302	Bavaria_BB_II5524
9.73866521	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
10.11018299	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.14648708	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
10.83610631	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
11.57587146	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
11.68067207	I2110_Trypillia
11.81369967	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.75417971	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.96713538	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.14383886	I1926_Trypillia
13.18246183	I2111_Trypillia
13.56668346	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
13.62619169	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
13.98647919	BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208
14.07380901	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
14.10845137	IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320
14.47627369	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
14.57562692	IlercavonesCatalan_I3321
14.86646226	I2440_Globular_Amphora

Distance to:	R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella
2.14441134	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
6.60470287	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
6.79479212	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
6.97894691	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
7.11525825	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
8.59178678	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119
9.01150931	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
9.15171569	Bavaria_BB_II5524
9.40140947	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
9.51282292	BronzeAgeEngland_I2462
9.63494162	IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320
10.53571070	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
11.23877217	I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
11.64855356	IlercavonesCatalan_I3321
12.15553783	BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208
12.23966911	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.58203961	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.76760691	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78
13.82287597	IberianSettlementCataloniaSpain_I3496
13.98864540	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
14.33947349	I3151_Trypillia
14.60477319	BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874
14.91302116	I2111_Trypillia
15.69331705	I2440_Globular_Amphora
15.79126974	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge

From what I can see there's a mixture of Balkan Bronze Age and North Alpine/German BB/Iberian Bronze Age, with some samples leaning more one way than the other.

I would need more Etruscan samples to say whether they lean more "eastern" than "western" Bronze Age compared to the Latins, or vice versa.

Ed. switched eastern and western.

Iulius · Jan 29, 2020

@Angela, I hadn't used those, but I agree with your conclusion based on the affinity of these samples.

Iulius · Jan 29, 2020

@Angela,

The PCA for these samples are interesting as well; https://vahaduo.github.io/custompca/

Here are the coordinates I used for the Ancient Samples + Modern West Eurasian:

Code:

R850_Iron_Age_Ardea,7.30,0,4.52,1.08,21.26,10.54,0,0.43,14.77,0,40.10,0
R851_Iron_Age_Ardea,1.59,0,1.39,0,49.28,24.97,0,0.14,1.93,0,20.26,0.45
R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella,4.84,0.64,0.65,0,47.12,28.54,0.15,0,4.13,0,13.40,0.53
R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata,6.45,0,3.03,0,33.19,11.94,0,0,11.63,0,33.74,0.02
R475_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,0,0,13.01,0,38.12,12.14,0.37,1.98,11.26,0,22.70,0.42
R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,7.18,0.17,2.38,0,39.08,25.74,0,0,5.98,0,18.84,0.66
R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,1.01,0,0.68,0.15,47.26,22.79,0,0.21,7.39,0.21,20.17,0.34
R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia,1.56,0.19,2.85,0,47.15,21.66,0,0,5.46,0,20.85,0
R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro,5.02,1.78,1.33,0,35.08,26.46,0,0,5.43,0,24.50,0.40
R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima,3.86,0.98,1.53,0.19,47.23,20.37,1.43,0,3.31,0,21.10,0
R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica,2.11,0,1.96,0.60,47.70,24.04,0,0,1.33,0,22.26,0
Sicilian,4.50,0.00,4.10,0.00,30.03,11.91,0.10,0.70,11.91,0.00,36.54,0.20
S_Italian_Sicilian,5.50,0.10,2.50,0.00,29.90,11.80,0.50,0.70,12.50,0.00,36.50,0.00
C_Italian,4.80,0.00,2.30,0.00,34.83,17.12,0.10,0.00,8.71,0.00,32.13,0.00
O_Italian,6.21,0.00,1.10,0.00,33.53,21.82,0.00,0.20,7.81,0.00,28.53,0.80
Tuscan,4.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,37.86,18.68,0.50,0.00,7.19,0.50,30.47,0.00
TSI30,5.01,0.00,0.80,0.00,38.78,19.34,0.10,0.00,7.31,0.00,28.66,0.00
North_Italian,4.50,0.00,0.70,0.00,44.04,22.02,0.00,0.00,5.81,0.00,22.92,0.00
N_Italian,5.69,0.00,0.90,0.00,41.16,23.68,0.20,0.00,5.59,0.00,22.78,0.00
Swiss_Italian,3.9175,0.0825,1.1025,0,39.8525,28.55,0.185,0.0625,5.7975,0,20.45,0
Italy_Aosta_Valley,5.817,0.055,1.62,0.1424,40.6528,29.9942,0.2457,0.052857,4.298,0.03,16.98,0.111
Italy_Trentino,4.792,0.216,0.726,0.044,38.714,29.792,0,0,5.468,0.02,20.222,0
Italy_FriuliVG,5.44,0.278,1.174,0.014,34.924,29.32,0.076,0,7.032,0,21.72,0.022
Italy_Veneto,5.443,0.0427,1.433,0.17818,36.93,27.16,0.062,0,5.728,0.15,22.83,0.03
Italy_Lombardy,4.749,0.123,1.119,0.039,39.628,25.077,0.166,0.013,6.41,0.026,22.618,0.0266
Italy_Piedmont,5.92,0.132,1.729,0.085,37.82,26.0195,0.035,0.035,6.7275,0.02395,21.37,0.1
Italy_Liguria,5.1,0.05,2.014,0.0922,37.89,23.225,0.2477,0.053,7.89,0.048,23.39,0
Italy_Emilia,6.13,0,1.15,0.1801,37.614,22.757,0.14,0.107,7.396,0.25,24.22,0.055
Italy_Romagna,6.08,0,1.87,0.13,34.66,20.98,0.1,0,8.99,0,27.19,0
Italy_Tuscany,6.12,0.049,1.21,0.139,36.889,21.811,0.157,0.055,8.206,0,25.364,0
Italy_Lazio,6.725,0,2.67,0.0525,31.7,19.8175,0.2575,0.07,9.785,0.1725,28.747,0
Italy_Marche,6.421,0.082,2.38,0.048,32.91,18.72,0.294,0.267,9.802,0,29.042,0.034
France_Corsica,4.812,0,2.998,0,39.95,17.762,0.09,0,8.306,0.064,25.994,0.024
Italy_Abruzzo,7.586,0.0283,3.225,0.0383,29.12,16.1,0,0.0783,10.91,0.316,32.598,0
Italy_Campania,7.065,0.086,2.818,0.085,28.905,13.727,0.111,0.334,12.32,0.02,34.342,0.111
Italy_Apulia,7.382,0.32,2.812,0.336,26.188,17.186,0.274,0.266,11.314,0.412,33.356,0.154
Italy_Sicily,7.313,0.482,4.594,0.101,27.216,13.451,0.249,0.653,12.095,0.047,33.163,0.635
Italy_Calabria,7.006,0.1308,4.1825,0.0759,27.005,11.44083,0.2616,0.5983,13.52416,0.22,35.4525,0.0975
ANI152_Varna,0,0,0,7.78,44.92,3.01,0,0,11.36,0,32.93,0
ANI153_Varna,2.13,0,0,0,51.89,5.96,5.65,3.03,10.35,0,20.99,0
ANI159_ANI181_Varna,0,0,3.07,0,44.93,10.49,0,0,12.13,0,29.38,0
ANI160_Varna_Outlier,0,0,0,0,52.83,10.79,0,0,10.03,0,26.35,0
ANI163_Varna_Outlier,8.64,0,2.63,0,29.14,44.17,0.62,0,0.66,0,13.52,0.02
I0633_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,3.48,0,48.68,0,0,0,12.28,0,35.57,0
I0634_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,3.04,0,51.34,0,0,0,13.43,0.25,31.76,0.17
I0676_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,4.22,0,51.96,0,0,0,11.72,0,32.09,0
I0679_Krepost_Neolithic,4.98,0,2.66,0.27,34.26,1.16,0,0,13.05,0,43.56,0.06
I0698_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,4.76,0,52.43,0,0,0,13.38,0,29.43,0
I0706_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,1.22,0.90,48.64,14.14,0,0,6.76,0,28.32,0.02
I0785_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.23,0,49.57,0,0,0,17.01,0,30.19,0
I1109_Malak_Preslavets,0,0.07,2.03,0,50.22,7.11,0,0,12.90,0.10,27.56,0
I1113_Malak_Preslavets,0,0,0.20,0,45.55,29.58,0,0,7.27,0,16.75,0.66
I1131_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,2.38,0.10,55.06,0,0,0,12.85,0,29.57,0.04
I1295_Malak_Preslavets,0,0,3.14,0,49.84,12.28,0,0,6.83,0.03,27.49,0.39
I1296_Malak_Preslavets,0,0,7.53,0,56.78,8.14,2.34,1.97,5.09,0,17.29,0.87
I1297_Malak_Preslavets,0,0,0,0,52.70,25.39,0,0,8.05,0,13.87,0
I1298_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,5.68,1.17,60.20,1.94,0,0,5.84,0,25.18,0
I1926_Trypillia,0,0,2.41,0,54.57,16.20,0,0,9.41,0,17.41,0
I2110_Trypillia,0,0,3.57,0.44,54.23,16.16,0,1.34,6.95,0,20.31,0
I2111_Trypillia,0,0,5.24,0,46.15,18.81,0,0,12.04,0,17.76,0
I2163_Balkans_BronzeAge,21.63,1.00,0,1.01,17.80,51.39,1.00,0,0,0,5.18,0.99
I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge,4.00,0,2.29,0,31.35,34.24,0.17,0,4.66,0,22.50,0.79
I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge,0,0.24,3.96,0.15,44.81,16.75,0,0,8.23,0,25.87,0
I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge,0,0.13,4.71,0,41.53,21.46,0,0,8.26,0,23.91,0
I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier,1.19,0,0,0,41.79,37.57,0,0,4.43,0.31,14.71,0
I2215_Malak_Preslavets,0,1.10,4.90,0,46.06,26.49,0,0.33,5.15,0,14.83,1.15
I2216_Malak_Preslavets,0,0,3.02,0,51.29,1.02,0,0,11.44,0,33.22,0
I2318_Peloponnese_Neolithic,0,0,1.09,0,44.62,0,0,0,13.77,0,40.52,0
I2403_Globular_Amphora,0,0.83,2.31,0,59.88,25.84,0,0,6.36,0,4.78,0
I2405_Globular_Amphora,0,0,0,0,69.86,17.08,0,0,4.81,0,8.25,0
I2423_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.23,0,48.97,5.31,0,0,13.48,0,28.88,0.13
I2424_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.73,0,45.99,6.95,0,0,13.64,0,29.69,0
I2425_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,4.44,0,54.61,8.79,0,0,6.31,0,25.84,0
I2426_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.32,0,47.06,8.21,0,0,21.64,0,19.77,0
I2427_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.93,0,44.78,4.58,0,0,14.21,0,32.50,0
I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,2.70,0,47.75,8.28,0,0,12.82,0,28.45,0
I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,4.01,0,48.30,9.01,0,0,10.16,0,28.52,0
I2433_Globular_Amphora,0,0,4.98,0,61.34,19.23,0,0,5.45,0,9.00,0
I2434_Globular_Amphora,0,0,0.42,0,64.12,19.13,0,0,7.08,0,9.25,0
I2440_Globular_Amphora,0,0,1.32,0,58.65,19.93,0,0,7.59,0,11.71,0.80
I2441_Globular_Amphora,0,0,3.56,0,61.46,18.19,0,0,7.23,0.06,9.34,0.16
I2509_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,6.02,0,47.70,1.62,0,0,12.45,0,32.20,0
I2510_Balkans_BronzeAge,0,0,2.52,0,51.52,1.22,0,0,13.30,0,31.44,0
I2519_Balkans_Chalcolithic,0,0,3.96,0.24,45.47,0.39,0,0,14.22,0,35.72,0
I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge,0,0,3.13,0.78,43.29,22.62,0.71,0,9.26,0.28,19.92,0
I2521_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,5.12,0,47.12,0,0,0,13.49,0.10,34.16,0
I2526_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,4.07,0,51.63,0,0,0,11.52,0,32.78,0
I2532_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,2.40,0,50.58,0,0,0,12.65,0.10,34.28,0
I2533_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,3.27,0,52.14,0,0,0,12.35,0.08,32.16,0
I4167_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,0,0,59.00,0,0,0,10.63,2.65,26.89,0.83
I4168_Balkans_Neolithic,0,0,1.41,0,54.81,1.57,0,0,13.72,0,28.48,0
I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge,4.65,0,0.65,0,38.24,27.11,0,0,5.98,0,23.37,0
Abhkasians,17.20,0.90,0.00,0.60,0.00,11.10,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.20,70.00,0.00
Adygei,17.18,2.40,0.00,0.30,1.90,20.18,0.20,0.00,0.00,1.30,56.54,0.00
Albanian_Kosovo,5.18,0.14,0.62,0.17,29.47,27.1,0.23,0.01,8.13,0.26,28.69,0
Albanian_North,4.49,0,1.15,0.03,29.7,28.3,0.21,0.05,7.34,0.12,28.6,0
Andalucia,7.19,0.00,5.09,0.00,52.55,18.08,0.00,0.60,3.20,0.10,12.89,0.30
Aragon,6.31,0.10,3.40,0.00,56.16,21.82,0.40,0.00,3.00,0.00,8.81,0.00
Argyll,13.10,0.00,0.00,0.00,41.20,45.20,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.50,0.00
Armenian_East,18.78,0.24,0.62,0.08,10.82,5.54,0.48,0.02,14.21,0.13,49.01,0
Armenian_West,17.23,0.05,0.79,0.11,12.26,3.33,0.39,0.1,16.05,0.08,49.54,0
Ashkenazi,2.10,0.50,4.70,0.00,25.90,13.00,0.90,0.20,13.90,0.50,38.30,0.00
Ashkenazy_Jews,2.80,0.60,4.20,0.00,25.13,13.21,1.30,0.40,12.81,0.50,39.04,0.00
Assyrian,18.30,0.00,0.00,0.00,9.60,0.90,0.10,0.00,18.90,0.00,52.20,0.00
Avar_Dagestan,25.18,2.76,0,0,6.09,25.32,1.19,0,2.06,0.28,37.13,0
Baleares,5.50,0.00,3.70,0.00,49.40,22.50,0.20,0.00,4.40,0.00,14.20,0.10
Balkars,15.80,3.90,0.00,0.10,0.80,19.40,0.10,0.00,0.00,3.30,56.60,0.00
Bashkir,10.27,23.64,0.15,1.07,8,30.73,1.87,0.01,0.49,16.51,7.24,0.01
Bedouin,5.00,0.00,4.90,0.00,8.20,0.40,0.00,5.30,43.30,0.00,30.80,2.10
Belorussian,0.00,0.30,0.00,0.00,16.12,67.87,0.50,0.00,1.90,0.00,13.31,0.00
Bosnian,4.81,0.53,0.39,0.12,25.91,42.79,0.74,0.03,4.67,0.07,19.92,0.01
British,11.30,0.00,0.00,0.00,43.50,43.60,0.00,0.00,0.30,0.00,1.30,0.00
British_Isles,9.50,0.00,0.00,0.00,42.50,45.70,0.10,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.20,0.00
Bulgarian,3.30,0.30,0.50,0.00,23.70,34.80,0.50,0.00,6.40,0.40,30.10,0.00
Bulgarians,1.50,0.90,0.30,0.00,25.03,34.93,0.30,0.00,5.71,0.60,30.73,0.00
Canarias,5.00,0.30,11.80,0.60,46.70,17.60,0.10,2.80,3.70,0.00,11.20,0.20
Cantabria,5.70,0.10,3.10,0.00,54.80,23.50,0.30,0.30,3.00,0.00,8.90,0.30
Castilla_La_Mancha,6.80,0.40,3.50,0.00,54.30,21.10,0.00,0.60,4.50,0.00,8.80,0.00
Castilla_Y_Leon,5.40,0.00,6.10,0.00,51.20,22.30,0.40,0.60,4.00,0.00,10.00,0.00
Cataluna,7.30,0.00,2.40,0.00,52.10,25.20,0.30,0.00,3.50,0.00,9.20,0.00
CEU30,10.60,0.00,0.00,0.00,41.40,44.70,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,3.30,0.00
Chechens,21.80,2.60,0.00,0.70,0.00,23.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.60,51.30,0.00
Chuvashs,4.50,20.02,0.00,0.00,6.71,52.75,1.00,0.00,0.70,4.10,10.21,0.00
Circassian,19.16,3.23,0,0.66,5.2,17.08,0.5,0.04,3.75,2.3,48.03,0.07
Cornwall,11.40,0.00,0.00,0.00,43.80,42.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,2.00,0.00
Cypriots,5.81,0.00,2.10,0.00,20.52,4.50,0.00,0.00,17.72,0.00,49.35,0.00
Druze,8.91,0.10,2.90,0.00,12.51,0.90,0.70,1.10,23.12,0.00,49.55,0.20
Dutch,9.90,0.00,0.00,0.00,39.10,45.60,0.00,0.00,0.60,0.00,4.80,0.00
English,10.62,0.00,0.00,0.00,41.58,44.59,0.00,0.00,0.10,0.00,3.11,0.00
Extremadura,6.91,0.00,6.01,0.00,48.25,22.12,0.30,1.00,4.30,0.00,10.71,0.40
FIN30,0.90,7.20,0.00,0.10,14.10,73.50,0.70,0.00,2.20,0.00,1.30,0.00
Finnish,0.30,6.70,0.00,0.00,13.40,75.50,0.20,0.00,2.60,0.00,1.30,0.00
French,7.91,0.00,0.20,0.00,44.44,36.54,0.00,0.00,2.50,0.00,8.41,0.00
French_Basque,9.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,73.10,17.10,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
French,8.08,0.00,0.60,0.00,43.81,36.83,0.10,0.00,2.69,0.00,7.88,0.00
Galicia,5.09,0.00,5.00,0.00,48.25,23.38,0.70,0.90,5.39,0.00,11.09,0.20
Georgia_Jews,16.92,0.00,0.70,0.40,7.41,3.60,0.00,0.00,18.82,0.00,52.15,0.00
Georgian_Adjara,19.54,0.59,0,0,7.8,4.1,0.54,0.05,8.46,0.31,58.62,0
Georgian_Gurian,18.73,0.31,0.02,0.34,4.51,10.73,0.17,0.12,6.12,0,58.94,0
Georgian_Imereti,19.33,0.33,0,0.11,5.3,7.93,0.47,0,6.83,0.1,59.61,0
Georgian_Mingrelian,18.78,0.69,0.15,0.13,4.16,9.36,0.24,0.05,5.1,0.36,60.98,0
Georgian_Svan,20.22,1.36,0,0.33,2.71,11.49,0.15,0,4.27,0.67,58.82,0
Georgian_Turkey,19.82,0.44,0,0.02,6.6,5.2,0.35,0.03,8.32,0.39,58.77,0
German,7.30,0.00,0.00,0.00,33.00,48.20,0.00,0.00,1.70,0.00,9.80,0.00
Greek,3.30,0.30,0.60,0.00,28.00,20.20,0.10,0.00,10.10,0.00,37.40,0.00
Greek_Cappadocia,11.66,0.41,0.6,0,18.85,6.27,0.13,0,14.23,0.1,47.73,0.02
Greek_Crete,8.02,0.02,2.63,0.2,23.4,12.24,0.17,0.23,14.43,0.17,38.45,0.04
Greek_Pontus,14.93,0.01,0.41,0.06,12.38,4.19,0.13,0.02,12.78,0.1,54.94,0
Hungarians,4.10,0.70,0.00,0.00,27.00,48.40,0.30,0.00,3.00,0.30,16.20,0.00
Iranian,28.80,2.10,0.00,0.60,5.60,6.00,3.60,0.10,12.40,0.50,40.30,0.00
Iran_Central_East,27.96,1.89,0.38,0.41,5.35,8.62,8.65,0.55,12.57,0.81,33.71,0.24
Iranian_Jews,18.80,0.40,1.80,0.40,6.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,22.50,0.00,49.30,0.00
Iranians,30.90,1.00,0.90,0.30,5.90,4.20,4.20,0.90,14.20,0.30,36.70,0.50
Iraq_Jews,16.80,0.00,1.60,0.10,8.90,0.00,0.10,0.00,24.70,0.00,47.80,0.00
Irish,11.91,0.00,0.00,0.00,42.74,45.15,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.20,0.00
Jordanians,9.60,0.00,5.50,0.00,10.80,0.90,0.20,4.90,27.90,0.10,38.00,2.10
Kent,10.49,0.00,0.00,0.00,41.86,43.86,0.00,0.00,0.20,0.00,3.60,0.00
Kumyks,20.00,3.90,0.00,0.50,3.10,18.80,0.40,0.00,3.30,3.70,46.30,0.00
Kurd,28.70,1.50,0.90,0.40,5.90,5.70,1.10,0.40,14.00,1.00,40.40,0.00
Kurds,28.20,0.60,0.00,0.60,6.30,6.70,0.80,0.10,14.30,0.20,42.20,0.00
Kurd_Kurmanji,24.19,1.39,1.15,0.18,8.64,7.09,2.59,0.26,13.97,0.62,39.81,0.1
Kurd_Sorani,24.26,0.4,1.22,0.48,7.29,6.28,3.79,0.94,16,0.5,38.62,0.24
Lebanese,10.80,0.20,4.70,0.60,11.80,3.70,0.00,2.40,23.50,0.00,41.30,1.00
Lezgins,27.80,1.70,0.00,0.00,0.30,23.80,0.00,0.00,0.80,0.00,45.60,0.00
Lithuanian,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,13.90,73.70,0.70,0.00,1.60,0.00,10.10,0.00
Lithuanians,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,13.71,77.18,0.10,0.00,1.00,0.00,8.01,0.00
Mixed_Germanic,10.70,0.00,0.00,0.00,38.40,44.10,0.00,0.00,0.50,0.00,6.30,0.00
Mixed_Slav,0.90,1.50,0.00,0.10,16.58,64.34,0.70,0.00,2.20,0.40,13.29,0.00
Mordovians,4.00,5.90,0.00,0.70,10.90,63.80,0.90,0.00,0.60,0.90,12.30,0.00
Morocco_Jews,5.41,0.00,9.51,0.00,27.33,4.30,0.50,1.10,17.02,0.00,34.03,0.80
Murcia,5.50,0.00,6.00,0.00,50.60,19.60,0.00,0.20,5.90,0.60,11.20,0.40
Nogais,12.87,11.38,0.00,0.50,4.49,21.26,0.70,0.00,0.10,11.48,37.23,0.00
North_Ossetians,16.50,3.90,0.00,0.20,0.00,19.20,0.00,0.00,0.00,3.50,56.70,0.00
Norwegian,8.20,1.00,0.00,0.00,36.00,54.70,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.10,0.00
Nusayri_Turkey,12.48,0.49,3.15,0.39,16.16,2.82,0.58,1.16,19.46,0.1,42.95,0.25
Orcadian,12.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,42.40,45.60,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Orkney,11.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,41.80,46.40,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Pais_Vasco,9.10,0.00,0.00,0.00,67.30,22.40,0.00,0.00,1.20,0.00,0.00,0.00
Palestinian,6.81,0.00,5.41,0.10,10.91,0.30,0.60,5.21,30.43,0.00,38.24,2.00
Polish,0.50,0.10,0.00,0.00,20.88,63.24,0.90,0.00,2.30,0.00,12.09,0.00
Portuguese,6.01,0.00,7.71,0.00,47.55,22.32,0.90,0.10,5.01,0.00,9.71,0.70
Romanians,3.00,0.30,0.00,0.00,24.60,36.00,1.50,0.00,5.90,0.30,28.40,0.00
Russian,2.00,7.30,0.00,0.10,12.10,65.40,1.10,0.00,2.00,0.80,9.20,0.00
Russian_B,0.20,2.70,0.10,0.40,13.11,66.57,0.80,0.00,0.60,1.20,14.31,0.00
Russian,1.80,3.00,0.00,0.00,14.11,66.47,0.40,0.00,1.40,1.10,11.71,0.00
Sardinian,0.00,0.00,2.60,0.00,70.57,0.00,0.10,0.00,5.81,0.00,20.92,0.00
Saudis,3.60,0.00,1.40,0.00,2.60,0.90,0.30,2.60,67.77,0.00,20.52,0.30
Sephardic_Jews,5.69,0.20,6.19,0.00,26.47,6.09,0.40,0.70,16.18,0.00,38.06,0.00
Spaniards,6.50,0.00,3.00,0.00,53.00,23.00,0.00,0.00,3.60,0.00,10.80,0.10
Spanish,6.21,0.00,5.11,0.00,52.55,22.72,0.20,0.00,4.00,0.00,8.81,0.40
Swedish,7.70,0.60,0.00,0.00,32.90,56.80,0.00,0.00,0.80,0.00,1.20,0.00
Syrians,11.41,0.20,1.50,0.00,11.61,2.70,1.30,2.90,27.93,0.00,38.64,1.80
Turkmens,28.03,6.61,0.00,1.70,4.70,10.31,5.41,0.00,6.81,7.71,28.73,0.00
Turkmen_Iraq,22.27,0.67,1.16,1.07,8.73,5.64,2.04,1.15,16.7,1.85,38.58,0.15
Turkmen_Iran,24.24,7.38,0.60,1.82,4.86,11.74,5.99,0.06,7.48,7.61,28.14,0.08
Turkmen_Uzbekistan,19.54,13.24,0.18,2.04,6.54,12.86,5.08,0.05,6.49,13.96,19.93,0.07
Turk_Ahiska,19.35,0.34,0.42,0.23,7.75,8.24,0.40,0,9.56,0.46,53.16,0.03
Turk_Anatolia,14.62,5.01,0.96,0.61,12.83,10.75,1.35,0.2,10.92,4.87,37.71,0.09
Turk_Northwest,12.88,6.48,1.14,0.79,14.39,14.21,1.13,0.17,9.59,5.55,33.5,0.11
Turk_Southwest,13.7,6.04,1.17,0.56,13.69,12.02,1.33,0.34,10.1,5.8,35.08,0.09
Turk_West_BlackSea,13.21,4.61,0.72,0.81,14.4,12.92,1.24,0.06,10.47,4.49,36.98,0.03
Turk_Central_West,14.48,4.37,0.96,0.53,13.53,10.75,1.35,0.16,11.57,4.52,37.65,0.08
Turk_Central_East,15.68,3.8,0.89,0.55,12.23,9.33,1.45,0.16,11.66,3.91,40.18,0.08
Turk_South,15.42,5.44,1.11,0.51,11.29,10.08,1.6,0.28,11.37,5.1,37.52,0.23
Turk_Central_Black_Sea,14.81,5.86,0.58,0.81,11.54,9.37,1.09,0.12,10.34,5.63,39.78,0.02
Turk_East_Black_Sea,15.19,0.80,0.39,0.13,11.01,5.28,0.30,0,11.25,1.17,54.42,0
Turk_Southeast,18.06,3.07,0.72,0.29,10.83,8.49,2.18,0.88,13.65,3.48,38.12,0.16
Turk_East,18.08,1.73,0.78,0.60,10.65,7.55,1.17,0.08,12.17,1.35,45.75,0.04
Ukranians,0.30,0.80,0.00,0.00,16.30,62.10,0.90,0.00,3.00,0.20,16.40,0.00
Valencia,6.81,0.00,3.00,0.00,55.46,22.22,0.00,0.00,2.40,0.00,9.91,0.20
Yemen_Jews,0.20,0.00,3.10,0.00,4.20,0.00,0.00,4.70,53.85,0.00,33.93,0.00
Yemenese,5.89,0.70,3.30,0.50,3.70,1.10,2.40,9.39,36.56,0.00,27.67,8.79
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120,7.59,0.73,0.40,0.00,39.57,31.32,1.80,0.00,0.00,0.00,17.73,0.86
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72,4.56,0.00,0.00,0.00,42.85,31.92,0.69,0.89,2.30,0.31,16.30 ,0.19
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119,9.54,1.40,0.00,0.27,43.57,32.66,0.11,0.14,0.20,0.00,11.08,1.01
NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78,10.50,0.54,0.54,0.00,39.10,37.12,0.00,0.35,2.04,0.00,9.53,0.28
NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_50,10.70,0.00,0.00,0.00,35.87,44.30,2.23,0.13,0.00,0.00,4.95,1.82
NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_2,5.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,40.44,41.78,1.83,0.00,1.04,0.00,8.28,0.99
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239,0.00,0.00,2.63,2.34,44.59,28.94,2.32,0.66,0.00,0.00,18.51,0.00
IberianSettlementCataloniaSpain_I3496,5.38,0.21,0.75,0.00,53.63,28.85,1.92,1.72,5.92,0.00,1.63,0.00
CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3243,8.87,0.00,2.93,4.86,36.62,38.06,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,8.67,0.00
ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977,2.96,0.00,2.41,0.00,52.45,25.53,0.60,0.00,3.19,0.00,12.86,0.00
IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9,0.89,0.00,1.25,0.00,58.14,21.43,0.49,0.00,4.69,0.00,11.18,1.93
BellBeakerFranceI1388,0.00,0.00,2.30,0.00,59.39,21.76,0.81,0.00,7.46,0.00,8.28,0.00
IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320,4.64,0.00,4.88,1.09,52.24,25.19,0.00,0.00,3.67,0.00,7.44,0.86
IlercavonesCatalan_I3321,3.80,0.00,4.55,0.00,55.48,25.14,0.00,0.83,2.20,0.32,7.68,0.00
BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874,5.77,0.32,0.81,0.47,39.46,40.05,1.07,0.56,0.80,0.00,10.47,0.22
IberianElArgarBronzeAge_I8136,0.00,0.00,4.83,0.00,61.85,21.67,1.21,0.00,3.88,0.00,6.07,0.49
BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208,1.39,0.00,5.31,0.43,54.53,22.97,1.16,0.00,3.96,0.94,8.35,0.95
Bavaria_BB_II5524,2.95,0.00,1.28,1.77,41.61,28.76,0.00,0.00,3.52,0.00,20.12,0.00
BronzeAgeEngland_I2462,8.52,1.12,1.18,0.00,45.45,33.73,0.00,0.00,2.08,0.00,6.90,1.02
BronzeAgeOuterHebrides_I2655,9.88,0.61,0.00,0.39,37.20,45.77,0.76,0.00,0.29,0.00,4.27,0.82
NeolithicScotland_I2634,0.00,0.00,6.63,1.42,60.56,11.65,0.00,0.21,7.56,0.00,11.96,0.00
I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave,0,0,2.55,1.31,44.77,0,0,0,12.74,0,36.69,1.95
I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete,0.49,0,3.07,0,37.80,0.67,0,0,13.01,0,44.93,0.03
I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete,0,0,1.28,0.51,37.14,0,0,0,15.36,0,45.71,0
I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete,0,0,3.39,0.38,35.55,0,0,0,13.26,0,47.43,0
I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete,0.41,0,4.34,0,39.06,0,0,0,12.70,0,43.49,0
I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete,1.52,0,5.68,0,37.33,0,0,0,16.14,0,39.25,0.08
I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis,4.14,0,1.89,0,36.48,4.77,0,0,8.08,1.19,43.45,0
I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete,6.11,0,2.47,0,40.07,15.84,0,0,9.79,0.87,24.86,0
I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete,0,0,0,0,40.48,0,0,0,4.75,0,54.78,0
I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete,3.72,0.51,3.62,0,53.24,0,0,0,14.12,2.88,21.92,0
I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete,0,0,6.66,0,43.44,0,0,0,11.86,0,37.93,0
I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete,1.10,0,0,0,43.10,0,0,0,17.55,0,38.25,0
I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete,4.59,0,0,0,33.89,0,0,0,19.71,0,41.08,0.73
I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese,0,0,3.52,1.43,38.53,7.73,0,0.65,13.96,0,34.19,0
I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese,1.33,1.22,3.40,0,40.19,9.10,0.52,0,7.58,0.48,33.22,2.96
I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese,2.87,0,2.57,0,37.48,8.67,0,0.36,10.29,0,37.52,0.24
I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta,6.79,0,1.92,1.07,27.17,4.07,0,0,14.65,0,42.98,1.35
I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta,9.21,0,0.11,0.47,27.71,4.33,0,0.81,12.84,0,44.53,0
I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta,9.16,0.07,1.74,0.67,24.77,1.32,0,0,14.88,0,45.56,1.81

torzio · Jan 29, 2020

mine
using post #37 data

Distance to:	Torziok12b
4.40054542	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
4.65249395	R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
4.86300319	R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
8.58770051	I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.18056238	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.18654996	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.96636032	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
13.93040559	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
14.00105710	R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella
14.03935540	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
14.07171987	R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
14.15126496	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
14.20135205	R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia
14.36145536	I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
14.41937585	R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica
14.47601119	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
14.47632550	R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
15.02331189	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
15.48482160	R851_Iron_Age_Ardea
17.08603816	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
17.30221951	I2111_Trypillia
18.23009051	Bul4_Yamnaya_Bulgaria
18.43855743	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
18.51940334	I3151_Trypillia
19.88195161	ANI163_Varna_Outlier

A very clear gap of the top 3 from the others

torzio · Jan 29, 2020

mine

using data from post # 41

Distance to:	Torziok12b
7.89459942	Bavaria_BB_II5524
8.87062568	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_120
10.55301379	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeSpanishGalicia_AITI_72
13.52289540	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3239
15.06901457	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_119
15.97685201	NorthAlpineBronzeAgeFrench_AITI_78
17.33912339	BellBeakerSouthernFrance_I3874
17.88934599	CuevadelaPalomaSpain_I3243
18.57029887	BronzeAgeEngland_I2462
19.37494258	ElSotilloBasqueCountry_I1977
20.13756440	NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_2
22.04581366	IlergetesTribeCatalan_I3320
24.12289369	NorthAlpineSouthDutch_AITI_50
24.25831198	BronzeAgeSpainCogotas_I12208
24.66223834	IlercavonesCatalan_I3321
25.34179354	BronzeAgeOuterHebrides_I2655
26.10284276	IberiaBronzeAge_ATP9
26.46820923	IberianSettlementCataloniaSpain_I3496
28.42436631	BellBeakerFranceI1388
31.73002994	IberianElArgarBronzeAge_I8136
32.26507245	NeolithicScotland_I2634

Iulius · Jan 29, 2020

Angela said:
My first question would be why you find the analysis provided by the authors unsatisfactory? Certainly made sense to me, especially as their models have the benefit of using populations much more proximate in time and space, and they don't mix modern and ancient samples, which I think is always a bad idea.

Now, as to how and from where this "additional" ancestry from the Near East got into some members of Latin tribes I think we're going to have to wait and see the make-up of Bronze and Iron Age Southern Italians, and, hopefully, some Greeks from the Classical Era as well. It may well be that this type of ancestry was, as I have maintained for almost seven years now, perhaps already present there even before the time of the Greek colonization of the first millennium BC.

If we want to play around with possibilities, I would think the Sicilian Beaker would be a good place to start, since there's no genetic "Beaker" in them at all, apparently.

I agree, the study's modeling makes more sense. It doesn't make much sense to model it with modern populations, that have no real merit for even being in a viable equation.

Also, the Italian neolithic samples show Eastern influences that were not present in other Neolithic European populations, like LBK. I believe the southern half of the peninsula may have retained, and/or had it re-enforced (Greek colonization). We know now, due to this study that J2, and Iran_Neo was in Italy, even before Steppe-like ancestry, as far back as the Neolithic.

Here is a random Neolithic sample from the study, R8. Already showing close to 30% "Caucasian" in the Neolithic:

Here's another random sample, R10 showing more of the same.

All this elusive Levantine, that is popular with Eurogenes-type analysis is not found in the study. Because it is not a viable modeling.

Also, Modern Levant? Come on people, we know how mixed this part of the world is with overlapping populations that are in Europe. The influence of Anatolians since the neolithic, and copper age, the influence of Greeks and Sea peoples. At the very least, use samples roughly from the same era.

Also, modern Iberians are not a good proxy to model Ancient Romans with. During the Iron Age, Iberians were similar to the Basque, and were pulled to their current position due to eastern Mediterranean and North African sources during the Imperial and Medieval era. The Latin samples as we see, are still pretty close to where the modern Italian populations are, North to South.

We assembled genome-wide data from 271 ancient Iberians, of whom 176 are from the largely unsampled period after 2000 BCE, thereby providing a high-resolution time transect of the Iberian Peninsula. We document high genetic substructure between northwestern and southeastern hunter-gatherers before the spread of farming. We reveal sporadic contacts between Iberia and North Africa by ~2500 BCE and, by ~2000 BCE, the replacement of 40% of Iberia’s ancestry and nearly 100% of its Y-chromosomes by people with Steppe ancestry. We show that, in the Iron Age, Steppe ancestry had spread not only into Indo-European–speaking regions but also into non-Indo-European–speaking ones, and we reveal that present-day Basques are best described as a typical Iron Age population without the admixture events that later affected the rest of Iberia. Additionally, we document how, beginning at least in the Roman period, the ancestry of the peninsula was transformed by gene flow from North Africa and the eastern Mediterranean.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

Iulius · Jan 30, 2020

Here is a modeling of the Dodecad K12b populations with ADC 1x, with the latest version of all of the samples I've composed. R437 has a strong presence from South to Center. While Northern_Italian have a stronger affinity to R1016. While N_Italian gets a strong affinity with one of the Balkan Bronze Age samples. O_Italian gets a lot of Protovillanovan, and Tuscan, and TSI seem to get the Armenoi_Crete sample; I think Angela is right that this person probably originally came from Italy.

Angela · Jan 30, 2020

Jovialis said:
Here is a modeling of the Dodecad K12b populations with ADC 1x, with the latest version of all of the samples I've composed. R437 has a strong presence from South to Center. While Northern_Italian have a stronger affinity to R1016. While N_Italian gets a strong affinity with one of the Balkan Bronze Age samples. O_Italian gets a lot of Protovillanovan, and Tuscan, and TSI seem to get the Armenoi_Crete sample; I think Angela is right that this person probably originally came from Italy.

Fascinating stuff, Jovialis. Great work.

Some things stand out right away: the Tuscans get the worst fit. I don't know why.

I also don't know why they differ that much. TSI is, I think, northwest of Florence, and the sample to which I'm always closest of the Tuscan samples. "Tuscan" must be more "southern", given the percentage of R437. Amazing that there's that much variation in one province.

The Crete Armenoi post Minoan sample is fascinating. She was a definite outlier for Crete, and at the time the paper came out I remember that the speculation was that she was a "foreign" bride. She's not Mycenaean like, however, so, why not Italy?

That probably explains my almost life long fascination with ancient Crete! I'm joking, of course. Given all the "TSI" like samples popping up all over the Balkans, and in Pannonia as well, she could also have been from those places.

The differences between the two North Italian samples are also very interesting. I went back and checked my runs from Dodecad, and North_Italian is the Bergamo HGDP sample. N_Italian was a small group of non Bergamo Northern Italians. The most vocal members of that group were also Lombards, but from further south than Bergamo. I don't know about the rest. The Bergamo sample is slightly more northwestern than the volunteer sample.

I also think it's interesting that there's so little matching to the 11979 Parma Beaker sample, although I get a decent hit on it. I know that isn't the most steppe admixed one, and I think it may even be the least steppe admixed one. I'd have to check.

Did you include those Northwest Alpine Beaker samples? I wonder how that would change things? If there were indeed two streams into Italy, one more Balkan Bronze Age like, and one more Northern Alpine Bronze Age one, maybe we'd see them show up as well.

I was always in between the TSI or Florentine like Tuscans and the North Italians.

torzio · Jan 30, 2020

Jovialis said:
Here is a modeling of the Dodecad K12b populations with ADC 1x, with the latest version of all of the samples I've composed. R437 has a strong presence from South to Center. While Northern_Italian have a stronger affinity to R1016. While N_Italian gets a strong affinity with one of the Balkan Bronze Age samples. O_Italian gets a lot of Protovillanovan, and Tuscan, and TSI seem to get the Armenoi_Crete sample; I think Angela is right that this person probably originally came from Italy.

your conclusion then reads that
North_Italian should represent = NorthWest Italy plus lombardy and
N_Italian should be = NorthEast Italy

for the others.......my guess is
O_Italian = Adriatic Italians, inc modern croatia and coastal slovenian lands

TSI = northern Tuscany .................Florence, Pisa and Lucca areas
Tuscan = southern Tuscany .................sienna area

Pax Augusta · Jan 30, 2020

Jovialis said:
Here is a modeling of the Dodecad K12b populations with ADC 1x, with the latest version of all of the samples I've composed. R437 has a strong presence from South to Center. While Northern_Italian have a stronger affinity to R1016. While N_Italian gets a strong affinity with one of the Balkan Bronze Age samples. O_Italian gets a lot of Protovillanovan, and Tuscan, and TSI seem to get the Armenoi_Crete sample; I think Angela is right that this person probably originally came from Italy.

It can't prove a provenance, it's not based on IBD or ROH segments, it's based on the results on K12b and Crete Armenoi is a low quality sample. At most it suggests a similarity, assuming that K12b is accurate with ancient samples.

We don't even know archaeologically who this woman, labeled as Crete Armenoi, was.

Angela said:
Some things stand out right away: the Tuscans get the worst fit. I don't know why.

I also don't know why they differ that much. TSI is, I think, northwest of Florence, and the sample to which I'm always closest of the Tuscan samples. "Tuscan" must be more "southern", given the percentage of R437. Amazing that there's that much variation in one province.

The Crete Armenoi post Minoan sample is fascinating. She was a definite outlier for Crete, and at the time the paper came out I remember that the speculation was that she was a "foreign" bride. She's not Mycenaean like, however, so, why not Italy? That probably explains my almost life long fascination with ancient Crete! I'm joking, of course. Given all the "TSI" like samples popping up all over the Balkans, and in Pannonia as well, she could also have been from those places.

It is not known where TSI comes from precisely (some Italian users think it comes from Sesto Fiorentino, in Italian newspapers when TSI was collected there was talk of genetic analysis in Antella and other places around Bagno a Ripoli, then southeast of Florence), and the average in K12b is called TSI30 and is based on 21 individuals.

Angela said:
The differences between the two North Italian samples are also very interesting. I went back and checked my runs from Dodecad, and North_Italian is the Bergamo HGDP sample. N_Italian was a small group of non Bergamo Northern Italians. The most vocal members of that group were also Lombards, but from further south than Bergamo. I don't know about the rest. The Bergamo sample is slightly more northwestern than the volunteer sample..

In N_Italian_D there are very likely also northern eastern Italians.

Angela · Jan 30, 2020

torzio said:
your conclusion then reads that
North_Italian should represent = NorthWest Italy plus lombardy and
N_Italian should be = NorthEast Italy

for the others.......my guess is
O_Italian = Adriatic Italians, inc modern croatia and coastal slovenian lands

TSI = northern Tuscany .................Florence, Pisa and Lucca areas
Tuscan = southern Tuscany .................sienna area

I guess you didn't see my post. How could N_Italian be North East Italy when I just related that two of the five members of that group were Lombards? If the other three were from Northeast Italy, I don't know, but probably at least one was from Friuli-A. Squecco. Perhaps you're another one if you volunteered your data to Dienekes. I don't know about the 5th one.

So, all we could say is mixed North Italian.

Angela · Jan 30, 2020

As for Crete Armenoi, as I mentioned upthread we indeed don't know her provenance. To repeat, given how many "TSI like" samples pop up all over, she could have been from Italy, the Balkans etc.
Then there's the fact that it's a low quality sample to consider.

I think that to get a clearer picture of affinities, both the Northern Alpine, German Bavarian samples and the Balkan samples should be included in analyses. To use just one or the other may skew the analysis.

torzio · Jan 30, 2020

Angela said:
I guess you didn't see my post. How could N_Italian be North East Italy when I just related that two of the five members of that group were Lombards. If the other three were from Northeast Italy, I don't know, but probably at least one was from Friuli-A. Squecco. Perhaps you're another one if you volunteered your data to Dienekes. I don't know about the 5th one.

I will speak with Adriano as I have known him for many years ...............he is related via my wife's line somewhere and we are still looking, maybe from Villach southern Austria near italy............last chat December 2019

As for lombards ...........are they all Bergamo based ...........my guess would be Brescia or Cremona ones are different

I tried many years ago ( 6) with Dienekes ...........he was more or appeared to be more interested in O_Italians that came via Vienna lands and beyond

Angela · Jan 30, 2020

torzio said:
I will speak with Adriano as I have known him for many years ...............he is related via my wife's line somewhere and we are still looking, maybe from Villach southern Austria near italy............last chat December 2019

As for lombards ...........are they all Bergamo based ...........my guess would be Brescia or Cremona ones are different

I tried many years ago ( 6) with Dienekes ...........he was more or appeared to be more interested in O_Italians that came via Vienna lands and beyond

I only remember one of the surnames. It appears to be from just northwest of Milano.
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turi...cognomi&cognome=Bolgeri&x=9&y=11#.XjMI-WhKhPY

Angela · Jan 30, 2020

Has anyone worked with the Irlach and Alburg Bell Beaker samples from Southern Germany?
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/863944v1.full.pdf

Dou · Jan 30, 2020

Angela said:
Has anyone worked with the Irlach and Alburg Bell Beaker samples from Southern Germany?https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/863944v1.full.pdf

Recently I discovered that one of my great-great-grandparents has this last name apparently of North-Italia:
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turi...t=cognomi&cognome=salina&x=0&y=0#.XjMWf2hKjIU

Do you know of any website where you could find information?

torzio · Jan 30, 2020

Angela said:
I only remember one of the surnames. It appears to be from just northwest of Milano.
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turi...cognomi&cognome=Bolgeri&x=9&y=11#.XjMI-WhKhPY

There are only 11 households in italy with that surname.....6 come from lomvardy , of which Varese is the main town,...especially places clivio and viggiu

Angela · Jan 30, 2020

Dou said:
Recently I discovered that one of my great-great-grandparents has this last name apparently of North-Italia:
http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turi...t=cognomi&cognome=salina&x=0&y=0#.XjMWf2hKjIU

Do you know of any website where you could find information?

Cognomix sometimes has information. In this case, Salina does appear. It's sort of a mixed bag, however. There are Lombard, Campanian, Sicilian branches etc. I don't know if all the Lombard Salina's actually have all their ancestry from Lombardia or some are of Southern Italian ancestry who moved north in the great migration which began in the 1950s.

At any rate there's a branch in Messina, one in Campania which might be traced to the Gens Sallia, as are the ones in Lombardia, and which can be found in Varese, Pavia, and Milano.

https://www.cognomix.it/origine-cognome/salina.php

Ygorcs · Jan 30, 2020

Jovialis said:
Here is a modeling of the Dodecad K12b populations with ADC 1x, with the latest version of all of the samples I've composed. R437 has a strong presence from South to Center. While Northern_Italian have a stronger affinity to R1016. While N_Italian gets a strong affinity with one of the Balkan Bronze Age samples. O_Italian gets a lot of Protovillanovan, and Tuscan, and TSI seem to get the Armenoi_Crete sample; I think Angela is right that this person probably originally came from Italy.

I have found the results of genetic ancestry models in Vahaduo far less reliable and plausible than using nMonte.R software directly. I'd recommend a bit of caution using it. Maybe that's because unlike nMonte2 it doesn't show a restricted mode in which it'd try to achieve only the best fit at the same as using a more moderate number of reference populations instead of using all possible reference samples to have the best fit possible.

Angela · Jan 30, 2020

Ygorcs said:
I have found the results of genetic ancestry models in Vahaduo far less reliable and plausible than using nMonte.R software directly. I'd recommend a bit of caution using it. Maybe that's because unlike nMonte2 it doesn't show a restricted mode in which it'd try to achieve only the best fit at the same as using a more moderate number of reference populations instead of using all possible reference samples to have the best fit possible.

I'll let Jovialis speak for himself if he chooses and when he has time, but could you be a bit more specific? In particular, how do you know it's more reliable? What's the objective standard as to whether a certain result is "better" than others?

I'm not trying to be provocative at all. I think we need objective criteria. Present company excepted, of course, it has too often seemed to me that the "modeling" has tended to support the creator's "intuition" or "hypothesis" if "bias" is too negatively loaded a word. It may all even be unconscious.

As to "best fits", I often think that in trying to get really low fits, people throw anything into the hopper, which may not only result in "over-fits", but in historically implausible scenarios.

In terms of using more "moderate" numbers of reference populations, I'm not sure that's such a good idea. Whenever someone is choosing the samples some bias can creep in, or it may just be a case that they don't know of, or have thought of other possibly good sources. If we are interested in exploring the source of the steppe admixture in Italy, and we use only South German steppe admixed samples, and not Balkan steppe admixed samples as well, some important clues might be missed.

Or, take the case of the Parma Beaker samples. If the analysis only used the most steppe admixed sample it might skew the analysis one way; if the one with very little steppe is used it skews it another. Instead, it might be the third which is the better fit. Now, when the samples from a certain site are very homogeneous it wouldn't matter, but in some cases that isn't the situation.

This is why, imo, so much of the modeling has been really wrong, mostly, it's true, when using modern samples, but also even when using ancient samples.

My instinct has always been that the more samples (within reason) the better, and the less human "interference" the better.

Distance to:	R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro
3.98938592	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
9.18398606	I2165_Balkans_BronzeAge
10.69891583	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.18047208	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
12.27822056	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.32561560	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
12.78267186	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
14.57795253	I1113_Malak_Preslavets
15.27564401	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
15.91312980	I2215_Malak_Preslavets
16.52904111	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
16.88675813	I2181_Balkans_Chalcolithic_outlier
17.72015801	I2111_Trypillia
17.85182624	I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
17.88307300	I3151_Trypillia
19.51211931	Bul4_Yamnaya_Bulgaria
19.52825133	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
20.81853981	I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
21.26791480	ANI159_ANI181_Varna
21.48199246	I1295_Malak_Preslavets
21.48879475	I1297_Malak_Preslavets
22.59939380	ANI163_Varna_Outlier
22.90999345	I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
22.98291974	I2110_Trypillia
23.52690800	I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic

Distance to:	R475_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia
13.09405590	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.33166531	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
13.49426545	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
13.88860684	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
14.05401010	ANI159_ANI181_Varna
14.09213965	I2111_Trypillia
15.26023263	I4089_Balkans_Chalcolithic
15.28873441	I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic
15.28887177	I2424_Balkans_Chalcolithic
15.61965429	I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
15.83670736	I2520_Balkans_BronzeAge
15.90954116	I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
15.92678247	I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic
16.11320576	I4088_Balkans_Chalcolithic
16.53829495	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
16.77566690	I1295_Malak_Preslavets
17.01953290	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
17.11525051	I2427_Balkans_Chalcolithic
17.52946092	I2423_Balkans_Chalcolithic
17.60192035	I2426_Balkans_Chalcolithic
17.62203734	I0706_Balkans_Neolithic
17.96744556	I1109_Malak_Preslavets
18.63348330	I2509_Balkans_Chalcolithic
18.71979701	ASH068_Iron_Age1
18.78957158	I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese

Distance to:	R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata
7.64113866	I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
9.80721673	I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
10.52248070	I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
10.75826194	ASH068_Iron_Age1
12.08184175	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
13.31058977	I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
14.03341726	I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
14.17018701	ANI159_ANI181_Varna
14.77072781	I0679_Krepost_Neolithic
14.92823164	I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
15.25588411	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
15.46300747	I2427_Balkans_Chalcolithic
15.54781014	I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
15.85167499	I2424_Balkans_Chalcolithic
16.55914551	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
16.59398084	I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
16.69271697	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
17.21921020	I2430_Balkans_Chalcolithic
17.50940319	I3709_Peloponnese_Neolithic
17.54941879	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
17.57468634	I2431_Balkans_Chalcolithic
17.63260616	I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
17.64726608	I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
17.68089364	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
17.88896028	I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete

Distance to:	R850_Iron_Age_Ardea
9.70182457	I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
10.36232599	ASH067_Iron_Age1
11.27515410	I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
11.91529269	I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
16.20714966	ASH066_Iron_Age1
16.78097137	I0679_Krepost_Neolithic
17.50239984	ASH034_Late_Bronze_Age
17.83166846	I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
17.89449636	ASH029_Late_Bronze_Age
18.04525422	I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
18.45507518	I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
19.90462509	I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
20.20018812	I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
20.34773206	ASH033_Late_Bronze_Age
20.65300220	I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
20.92920448	ASH068_Iron_Age1
21.11986032	ASH008_Iron_Age2
21.14818668	I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
21.43323587	I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
22.19379192	I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
22.37594691	ASH087_Iron_Age2
22.54875606	I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
23.36968977	I3709_Peloponnese_Neolithic
24.84876858	KFH2_KfarHaHoresh_PPNB
25.05676356	I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily

Analysing Iron Age Italian samples

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