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The Celts of Iberia

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Regulus said:
I am the new guy for DNA, but I will go out on a limb here:

If 'I' or R1a was found in any appreciable amount in Scotland, Ireland, Wales etc., then I would not have a problem with your statement. Yes, I am aware of lowland Scots and those in the North, so besides those (which can be easily explained).
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I was talking about autosomal, which covers the whole genome, unlike haplogroups.

spongetaro said:
Galicia and Gallaecia being as Celt as Brittany and Ireland is also a modern construction.
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No, it is not, from a historical point of view.
 
spongetaro said:
Galicia and Gallaecia being as Celt as Brittany and Ireland is also a modern construction.
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More like a too-nearly-forgotten reconstruction. There's no doubt that Galicia has lost more of its Celtic culture than other Celtic areas, especially compared to those in and around the British Isles. I think reclaiming its Celtic culture is a positive trend, though.
 
You may want to consider the ideas I posted earlier today on this thread as regards the concept of Celticity.

To be Celtic, one must identify as such, ethnically and culturally. Identity structures emerge from the very dynamics of sociocultural exchange that transpire between community members sharing a particular habitus. i.e., the body of inclinations, sentiments, preferences, perspectives and propensities that engender specific sets of habituated behaviors, formed intersubjectively. In this case, we are dealing with the habitus of being Celtic. To be Celtic means you are able to share in a particular Celtic habitus. In the most fundamental terms, we are dealing with a social group's epistemological cache that yields specific sociocultural behaviors, such as a particular language, art form or modes of interaction.

This is why I disagree with the notion that Celticity = (only) Celtic language. Language is simply social behavior and ALL behavior is produced via cultural influences. Ultimately It is the Celtic habitus that defines Celticity.

See Boudrieu (1984, 1988, 2002...).
 
sparkey said:
I think you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that there was a Celtic expansion into the Germanic heartland, I meant that their cultural history is closely related, as they are both come from IE origins. IE, of course, is quite young in the grand scheme of things. And I brought up shared non-patrilineal lines to help explain why their autosomal DNA would be similar. Regardless, many modern Welsh, Irish, etc. are clearly Celts. Genetics wouldn't exclude that even if we found that they were all 99% Germanic in origin... I find that genetics helps us understand how they came to be Celtic, and how they relate to other historically Celtic peoples and non-Celtic peoples. It doesn't determine whether or not they are Celts.
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Regarding the Celtic-Germanic connection, there is two issues to be considered: first off, the Beaker-Bell Culture extended into southern Scandianavia. Secondly, the pre-Germanic population of northern Germany almost certainly spoke a language we might consider Celtic or Proto-Celtic. The key argument for that is linguistic: although Germanic in many ways is closer to Balto-Slavic, there is very a number of words in Germanic which are cognates of Celtic words, because they conform (or not conform) to Germanic sound laws, they must have entered the Germanic vocabulary at different stages. The perhaps most obvious example would be the word for "iron".
 
sparkey said:
More like a too-nearly-forgotten reconstruction. There's no doubt that Galicia has lost more of its Celtic culture than other Celtic areas, especially compared to those in and around the British Isles. I think reclaiming its Celtic culture is a positive trend, though.
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Then the Celtic league should also accept Switzerland, France, Northern Italy, Wallonia, Austria, Czech Republic, Bavaria etc
None of these Nations/regions claim a place in the Celtic league.
What's going on in Spain ? Is it fashionable to be "Celt" ?
 
spongetaro said:
Then the Celtic league should also accept Switzerland, France, Northern Italy, Wallonia, Austria, Czech Republic, Bavaria etc
None of these Nations/regions claim a place in the Celtic league.
What's going on in Spain ? Is it fashionable to be "Celt" ?
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It comes down to a matter of identity. Galicia and N. Portugal (Gallaecia) generally PRACTICE aspects of Celtic culture and identify with their Celtic past. Even though a Celtic language is not spoken currently in these lands, there is an enduring Celtic consciousness.
 
Cambria Red said:
Not quite. Read my posts on Celticity and do a bit of research.
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Your concept of Celticity is based on subjectiv elements and has nothing to do with History.
Linguistically, Lusitanian were not Celt. As for the Genetic, Lusitanian might have some Em81, M167 and lots of S116* which is really not the case of British people and Central European people.
At least you can say that Portugal cluster with other Latin countries
 
Cambria Red said:
It comes down to a matter of identity. Galicia and N. Portugal (Gallaecia) generally PRACTICE aspects of Celtic culture and identify with their Celtic past. Even though a Celtic language is not spoken currently in these lands, there is an enduring Celtic consciousness.
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Ok, so the ancient Celtic world included:
*southern Germany
*Switzerland
*Belgium
*The British Island
*Most of France
*Austria
*Czech Republic and part of Hungary
*Parts of Turkey
*Parts of Spain and Portugal


Now try to find any common link (besides the fact that they once spoke a Celtic language) between all those areas.
 
spongetaro said:
Then the Celtic league should also accept Switzerland, France, Northern Italy, Wallonia, Austria, Czech Republic, Bavaria etc
None of these Nations/regions claim a place in the Celtic league.
What's going on in Spain ? Is it fashionable to be "Celt" ?
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The folk of Austria, Czech Republic or Bavaria are not Celtic. You have some examples of Galician dances like Muñeira Ribeirana, which has been documented as far as the XVth century, and is considered celtic folk.

spongetaro said:
Your concept of Celticity is based on subjectiv elements and has nothing to do with History.
Linguistically, Lusitanian were not Celt. As for the Genetic, Lusitanian might have some Em81, M167 and lots of S116* which is really not the case of British people and Central European people.
At least you can say that Portugal cluster with other Latin countries
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Wrong. British people have around 30% of S116*, but autosomally they are different not because they are supposedly more celtic, but because they are more germanic and nordic, as seen by I1/R1a/U106 and they cluster with other germanics/nordics, and they have vast more northern-european input, as seen in the dodecad and eurogenes projects, where they reach close levels to scandinavians. And this northern-european has little to do with celts, since this component peaks in Lithuanians and FInns.
 
spongetaro said:
Your concept of Celticity is based on subjectiv elements and has nothing to do with History.
Linguistically, Lusitanian were not Celt. As for the Genetic, Lusitanian might have some Em81, M167 and lots of S116* which is really not the case of British people and Central European people.
At least you can say that Portugal cluster with other Latin countries
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My comments also have to do with history... The habitus is developed diachronically.

The evidence shows that Lusitanians practiced a Celtic culture and had much in common with Gallaecia. Genetics do not define Celticity, culture does. And we have a very long way to go to establish a set of genetic "Celtic" parameters.
 
spongetaro said:
Ok, so the ancient Celtic world included:
*southern Germany
*Switzerland
*Belgium
*The British Island
*Most of France
*Austria
*Czech Republic and part of Hungary
*Parts of Turkey
*Parts of Spain and Portugal


Now try to find any common link (besides the fact that they once spoke a Celtic language) between all those areas.
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You never read what we say, don't you ? All these countries that were heavily settled by Celts share a very high frequency of R1b-S116. Now, you are going to talk about Czechs and hungarians, but like I said in an earlier thread, and also Maciamo said it, due to their central position in Europe, they have had a lot of mixing with slavs (as seen by their autosomal position in plots and their levels of R1a) and germanics.
 
Wilhelm said:
The folk of Austria, Czech Republic or Bavaria are not Celtic. You have some examples of Galician dances like Muñeira Ribeirana, which has been documented as far as the XVth century, and is considered celtic folk.
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A true logical argument here. A XVth century dance should be considered Celtic. How can you prove it existed in the Vth century BC ?
Are there serious argument (beside the XVth century dance) to classify a region as Celt ?
 
Consider also the regions with the highest and most enduring levels of Celtic settlement.
 
spongetaro said:
A true logical argument here. A XVth century dance should be considered Celtic. How can you prove it existed in the Vth century BC ?
Are there serious argument (beside the XVth century dance) to classify a region as Celt ?
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How about Celtic stick dancing, practiced extensively in NE Portugal and Wales? We could go on...
 
spongetaro said:
A true logical argument here. A XVth century dance should be considered Celtic. How can you prove it existed in the Vth century BC ?
Are there serious argument (beside the XVth century dance) to classify a region as Celt ?
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I didn't say it is a Celtic region. There are no celtic regions. WHat I said is that they have Celtic traditions and folks. As for the times of the celts, yes, there are evidences of ancient celtic music in Iberia, see these links that I posted earlier in this thread :

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Ancient_Celtic_music
 
Wilhelm said:
I didn't say it is a Celtic region. There are no celtic regions. WHat I said is that they have Celtic traditions and folks. As for the times of the celts, yes, there are evidences of ancient celtic music in Iberia, see these links that I posted earlier in this thread :

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Ancient_Celtic_music
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If the belonging to Celtic civilization is only based on dance, the Celtic civilization may have been very poor
 
spongetaro said:
In no way Portugal has the highest and most enduring levels of Celtic settlements
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Did I say Portugal? But now that you mention it, take a good look at the Celtic maps. At one time, practically all of Western Iberia spoke Celtic and Celtic influenced languages

Also, N. Portugal was part of Gallaecia and had some of the most extensive Celtic settlements in Iberia and Western Europe. Have you ever heard of Citania de Briteiros near Guimaraes. Think again...
 
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