The Celts of Iberia

[sparkey]

Well this was said by a spaniard history and geography expert specialized in Ancient History. Sorry again. "Algunos de los habitantes de Numancia prefirieron darse muerte entre sí, antes que rendirse a los romanos. De los rendidos Escipión se guardó 50 para que le acompañasen en su triunfo a Roma y el resto los vendió como esclavos. También Escipión castigó duramente a las ciudades cercanas que parecían colaboracionistas y finalmente arrasó completamente la ciudad de Numancia, sin esperar la decisión final del Senado" Julián Hurtado Aguña es Doctor en Geografía e Historia en su especialidad de "Historia Antigua" por la Universidad de Salamanca aprobando en el año 2000 su tesis doctoral con Sobrealiente Cum Laude. http://www.arturosoria.com/historia/art/numancia.asp well if this well educated spaniard guy is "ridiculous"...it's alright...is your fellow countryman. SORRY.

Are you still missing my points, Brady? The Numantians were slaughtered, yes. But not all Celtiberians were Numantians, and evidence of Celtiberian culture is obvious post-Siege of Numantia.

 

[Brady]

Well, he is flatly not right about Celtiberians being totally exterminated during the siege of Numantia. There were still Celtiberians after the official end of the Celtiberian Wars, that's not really up for debate.

Has Celtic culture been significantly damaged throughout the years in Iberia? No doubt... they've had their culture altered on the same scale as France. But they can still claim Celtic heritage, and there are active reconstructionist movements that have a lot to pull from.

Well check this another source out:The Celts: a history Escrito por Dáithí Ó hÓgáin Pag. 124 Where is described how celtic culture began to dissapear in the increaseingly latinised south-west corner of the continent. http://books.google.com/books?id=-y...&resnum=2&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Triskel]

Well this was said by a spaniard history and geography expert specialized in Ancient History. Sorry again. "Algunos de los habitantes de Numancia prefirieron darse muerte entre sí, antes que rendirse a los romanos. De los rendidos Escipión se guardó 50 para que le acompañasen en su triunfo a Roma y el resto los vendió como esclavos. También Escipión castigó duramente a las ciudades cercanas que parecían colaboracionistas y finalmente arrasó completamente la ciudad de Numancia, sin esperar la decisión final del Senado" Julián Hurtado Aguña es Doctor en Geografía e Historia en su especialidad de "Historia Antigua" por la Universidad de Salamanca aprobando en el año 2000 su tesis doctoral con Sobrealiente Cum Laude. http://www.arturosoria.com/historia/art/numancia.asp

OMG you're too ignorant...
Numancia: only one arevaci city - Arevacis were just one tribe of celtiberians - celtiberians were just one kind of the different celts of Iberia.



Celtic is a cultural/lingüistic classification, not genetic. Anyway Hallstaat theory is only one of various theories about celtic origin, and we can´t say that R1b-U152 is related to it. The most archaic celtic languages were found in Iberia (Lusitanian and Tartessian). Nobody deny the irish celticity, and they aren´t related to Hallstaat either.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

@Spongetaro

You may want to take up the traditional "Celtic Cradle" notion with the Atlantic School (see Cunliffe & Koch, 2010). There is growing evidence that Celticity actually developed in two regions, Central Europe and the Atlantic Facade.

I believe your points concerning genetics were already responded to in depth by some other members.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

OMG you're too ignorant...
Numancia: only one arevaci city - Arevacis were just one tribe of celtiberians - celtiberians were just one kind of the different celts of Iberia.
View attachment 4668
Celtic is a cultural/lingüistic classification, not genetic. Anyway Hallstaat theory is only one of various theories about celtic origin, and we can´t say that R1b-U152 is related to it. The most archaic celtic languages were found in Iberia (Lusitanian and Tartessian). Nobody deny the irish celticity, and they aren´t related to Hallstaat either.

Guess some people have an EXCEEDINGLY hard time dealing with reality. :useless:

 

[Brady]

OMG you're too ignorant...
Numancia: only one arevaci city - Arevacis were just one tribe of celtiberians - celtiberians were just one kind of the different celts of Iberia.

View attachment 4668

Celtic is a cultural/lingüistic classification, not genetic. Anyway Hallstaat theory is only one of various theories about celtic origin, and we can´t say that R1b-U152 is related to it. The most archaic celtic languages were found in Iberia (Lusitanian and Tartessian). Nobody deny the irish celticity, and they aren´t related to Hallstaat either.

I agree with that, your celtic heredity is such historical, celtic tribe lived in there...but spaniards don't have celtic blood.

 

[sparkey]

As I pointed out earlier, Celts of Iberia were hardly similar genetically to those of the craddle of Celtic civilization (Southern Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Eastern France)

"Hardly similar" is stretching it, they share R1b-S116 and cluster with them autosomally to some degree. At worst, they are cousins to the Celts, as R1b-S116 is only about 5000 years old.

The actual order of people spreading into Iberia is somewhat mysterious, but we have clues, not the least of which is linguistic. Mimicking the spread of culture throughout the rest of Western Europe, we can postulate that the para-Celtic culture/language (that is, Lusitanian) came before the Q-Celtic culture/language (Celtiberian), which would have come before any P-Celtic. I don't think that genetics precludes that.

 

[sparkey]

Well check this another source out:The Celts: a history Escrito por Dáithí Ó hÓgáin Pag. 124 Where is described how celtic culture began to dissapear in the increaseingly latinised south-west corner of the continent. http://books.google.com/books?id=-y...&resnum=2&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Yeah... that source supports the idea that Celtiberians as a whole were not completely wiped out after the Siege of Numantia, but that their culture continued to diminish considerably afterwards due to Roman influence. You were making it sound like all the Celtiberians lived in Numantia, and then the Romans killed all of them.

 

[Triskel]

I agree with that, your celtic heredity is such historical, celtic tribe lived in there...but spaniards don't have celtic blood.

I don´t said that retarded wetback.

 

[spongetaro]

"Hardly similar" is stretching it, they share R1b-S116 and cluster with them autosomally to some degree. At worst, they are cousins to the Celts, as R1b-S116 is only about 5000 years old.

The actual order of people spreading into Iberia is somewhat mysterious, but we have clues, not the least of which is linguistic. Mimicking the spread of culture throughout the rest of Western Europe, we can postulate that the para-Celtic culture/language (that is, Lusitanian) came before the Q-Celtic culture/language (Celtiberian), which would have come before any P-Celtic. I don't think that genetics precludes that.

The problem with you Cambria red is that you don't want to admit that neither Lusitanian nor S116 was Celtic.
To what extent could we consider Iberian, Basque, Latin, Aquitanian and Rhaetian Celtic languages ?

 

[spongetaro]

"Hardly similar" is stretching it, they share R1b-S116 and cluster with them autosomally to some degree.

It's not obvious at all, Portugal clusters with Spain aand t some degree with France but that's about it. I couldn't say that Iberian people share any similarities with Alpine and British Celts

 

[Triskel]

The problem with you Cambria red is that you don't want to admit that neither Lusitanian nor S116 was Celtic.
To what extent could we consider Iberian, Basque, Latin, Aquitanian and Rhaetian Celtic languages ?

what? what? what? what?

You can´t prove that U152 was celtic or it was the only celtic haplogroup. Probably only R1a people were true indoeuropeans (i.e. first celts too) with the same arguments.

 

[Carlitos]

It is quite probable that before the arrival of Central European Hallstatt Celts (seventh century BC) at the beginning of the second Iron Age, the Atlantic Arc during the Bronze Age and early Iron Age past was populated by Indo-Europeans, which also was called "Celtic culture", "Proto", or quite similar, because the very nature of such Indo-European. It is for this reason that indigenous or autochthonous substratum elements in the northwestern, southwestern Spain Lusitanian or did not have any problem of cultural assimilation by the arrival of Central European Hallstatt Celts later.

http://almogavar.multiply.com/journal/item/18

Mood, they will not be the ones to say who is or is not European or Celtic at their convenience.

 

[spongetaro]

what? what? what? what?

You can´t prove that U152 was celtic or it was the only celtic haplogroup. Probably only R1a people were true indoeuropeans (i.e. first celts too) with the same arguments.

You can't actually prove nothing when it comes to haplogroup.
I didn't say that U152 was Celtic. It was Celtic and Italic. It is a feature of people that spread from the Alpine and Central European area where Halstatt and Italic people are supposed to have originated.

So U152 is not exclusively Celt but Celto Italic at least.
Wht about S116 ? It was Celt, Non Indo Eurpean Celt (lusitanian, ligurian...) and non Indo eurpean (Basque, Iberian).

Don't you think that U152 is more precise to follow Celtic migration that spread from the Celtic cores Central Europe ?

 

[Wilhelm]

It's not obvious at all, Portugal clusters with Spain aand t some degree with France but that's about it. I couldn't say that Iberian people share any similarities with Alpine and British Celts

Wait, wait, wait here. First of all : There is something called genetic distances (Fst) which clearly show that Iberians and French are very related, in fact in a study the shortest distance in Europe was between french spaniards. Second : The British people are not celts, far from it, they have a lot of germanic and nordic influence, you can see this in all the autosomal and admixture analyisis (their north-european levels) and their clustering towards north-europeans.

The problem with you Cambria red is that you don't want to admit that neither Lusitanian nor S116 was Celtic.
To what extent could we consider Iberian, Basque, Latin, Aquitanian and Rhaetian Celtic languages ?

Celtic languages were spoken in about 2/3 of Iberia (you can see these all the maps), but none of those languages you mentioned are celtic. As for the S116, saying it is not celtic would be like saying Celts never existed, because it is the principa branch of western EUrope and U152 is just a subclade of it.

 

[spongetaro]

It is for this reason that indigenous or autochthonous substratum elements in the northwestern, southwestern Spain Lusitanian or did not have any problem of cultural assimilation by the arrival of Central European Hallstatt Celts later.

How can you prove what you're saying ?
Did the Pelasgian had cultural assimilation problem with the Mycenian?
Did the Hatti had cultural assimilation with the Hittites ?

 

[Wilhelm]

You can't actually prove nothing when it comes to haplogroup.
I didn't say that U152 was Celtic. It was Celtic and Italic. It is a feature of people that spread from the Alpine and Central European area where Halstatt and Italic people are supposed to have originated.

So U152 is not exclusively Celt but Celto Italic at least.
Wht about S116 ? It was Celt, Non Indo Eurpean Celt (lusitanian, ligurian...) and non Indo eurpean (Basque, Iberian).

Don't you think that U152 is more precise to follow Celtic migration that spread from the Celtic cores Central Europe ?

hmm..U152 is actually a subclade of S116.

 

[spongetaro]

hmm..U152 is actually a subclade of S116.

hmmm... That's why I'm saying it is more precise

 

[Carlitos]

How can you prove what you're saying ?
Did the Pelasgian had cultural assimilation problem with the Mycenian?
Did the Hatti had cultural assimilation with the Hittites ?

Perhaps in the same way that you can not prove otherwise.

 

[spongetaro]

none of those languages you mentioned are celtic.

I only mentioned languages that were spoken by mostly S116 people and as you pointed out, none of those language are celtic