The Celts of Iberia

[Wilhelm]

Which doesn't make you Celt.

What ? Are you that stupid ? First of all : I never said we are celts, what I say is that we have celtic ancestry, and second, british people and central europeans are far from being celts, the first have a lot of germanic/nordic admixture and the second have a lot Slavic and germanic, as seen by autosomal/haplogroups.

 

[Wilhelm]

British people were not genetically close to Central European people so indeed not Celt genetically (like western French) but were fully Celtic speaking and BTW the island of Great Britain spoke a P celtic language which shows a Clear Central European influence that Spain doesn't have

central european don't have just celtic ancestry, they have also slavic, germanic and many other influences. There are not celts today.

 

[spongetaro]

...indicating a degree of continuity of pre-Germanic peoples in North Europe. I know that they share autosomal DNA, it didn't have to come from Germanic peoples. Which of those pre-Germanic Northern European populations became Celts and have significant Y-DNA that correlates with the spread of the Celts? The Brits (especially Irish, Welsh, Cornish).

I agree with you, the North/ South Western European gap is older than we might think. A lot of Mesolithic, Neolithic and Bronze age migration are not recorded by History

 

[spongetaro]

central european don't have just celtic ancestry, they have also slavic, germanic and many other influences. There are not celts today.

Iberia has a lot of North African influences which mean that not only they aren't Celts today but never were

 

[sparkey]

british people and central europeans are far from being celts

...except that all living Celtic cultures and languages, save that of the Bretons, are from the British Isles. So at least some of them are very much Celts.

 

[Triskel]

Iberia has a lot of North African influences which mean that not only they aren't Celts today but never were

Nobody is celt today...

 

[Wilhelm]

Iberia has a lot of North African influences which mean that not only they aren't Celts today but never were

Nobody is saying we are celts. There are not celts today. And it's not true that spaniards have a lot of North-African.

 

[spongetaro]

I never said we are celts, what I say is that we have celtic ancestry, and second, british people and central europeans are far from being celts, the first have a lot of germanic/nordic admixture and the second have a lot Slavic and germanic, as seen by autosomal/haplogroups.

Then why France cluster with Switzerland, Belgium ?

 

[sparkey]

Nobody is celt today...

...except the Irish, Welsh, Bretons, etc... Jeez, just because Celtic culture and language was eradicated in most places, doesn't mean nobody is a Celt today.

 

[Wilhelm]

Then why France cluster with Switzerland, Belgium ?

Because they are ethnically related ?

 

[spongetaro]

Nobody is saying we are celts. And it's not true that spaniards have a lot of North-African.

The Iberian Peninsula has more EM81 than R1b L21 and R1b U152 together. Do you see it as a Problem ?
There are plenty of it in Paris our capital

 

[Wilhelm]

The Iberian Peninsula has more EM81 than R1b L21 and R1b U152 together. Do you see it as a Problem ?
There are plenty of it in Paris our capital

hmm..actually France has more E-M81 than southern-spaniards :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/?tool=pmcentrez

 

[spongetaro]

Because they are ethnically related ?

Do you mean something like a Gaulish race that survived 2000 years

 

[spongetaro]

hmm..actually France has more E-M81 than southern-spaniards :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/?tool=pmcentrez

Really ?

 

[Wilhelm]

Really ?

This is a map of the whole E1b1b, not E-M81 . But even in E1b1b the french have more than spaniards: 7% vs. 6% :
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The problem with you Cambria red is that you don't want to admit that neither Lusitanian nor S116 was Celtic.
To what extent could we consider Iberian, Basque, Latin, Aquitanian and Rhaetian Celtic languages ?

I don't have a problem at all. However, for some reason, you have issues with Iberian Celtic heritage and keep ignoring or downplaying some very obvious facts. So, tell us, please, who REALLY has the problem here?

Have Celtic subcaldes / markers been clearly defined and confirmed yet? Of course not. We can't say with any certainty which genetic markers are legitimately Celtic. Population genetics has a VERY long way to go, so don't try to make things seem concrete, because they are not.

Lusitianians clearly practiced a Celtic culture and they were obviously an IE people. The classification of the Lusitanian language is very much under debate, and a majority of linguists and philologists treat it as Para-Celtic or Proto-Celtic.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

It's not obvious at all, Portugal clusters with Spain aand t some degree with France but that's about it. I couldn't say that Iberian people share any similarities with Alpine and British Celts

Ahh, I see, you have an agenda. Think credibility guy...

 

[spongetaro]

This is a map of the whole E1b1b, not E-M81 . But even in E1b1b the french have more than spaniards: 7% vs. 6% :
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Having the same frequencies of EV13 than South and West Germany make us closer to Central European

/content/Spread_hg_E.gif

Region/Haplogroup

I1 ​

I2a​

I2b​

R1a​

R1b​

G2a​

J2​

J1​

E1b1b​

East Germany

19.5​

1​

3​

24​

36​

4​

2​

0​

7.5​

​

​

West Germany

13​

2.5​

7​

9​

47​

5​

5​

0​

8​

​

​

South Germany

9.5​

5​

3​

9.5​

48.5​

7.5​

5.5​

1​

7.5​

 

[Triskel]

...except the Irish, Welsh, Bretons, etc... Jeez, just because Celtic culture and language was eradicated in most places, doesn't mean nobody is a Celt today.

No, Europe is full of people with celtic ascendency, but it doesn´t make them celts imo. The celts (like romans, vikings, dorians or goths) dissapeared.

__________________________________________

http://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/29/54/26koch.pdf

After reviewing some of the earliest linguistic evidence from the
Iberian Peninsula—viewing this from my accustomed perspective based in
the early Insular Celtic languages and, to a lesser extent, Gaulish—I have
concluded that there is also case to be made from the philological side in
favour of an origin of the Celtic languages in the Atlantic west (2009)

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I only mentioned languages that were spoken by mostly S116 people and as you pointed out, none of those language are celtic

He also said - and this is backed by scientific evidence - that 2/3 of Iberia spoke Celtic languages. If you include Para-Celtic Lusitanian you have ~ 3/4 of the Peninsula as Celtic.

Please, don't try to muddy the waters by throwing in non Celtic / Celtic influenced languages into the mix.