Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

Why would you count numbers ? I dont understand a point .
Yes J2 mixed realy early with R1a , thats reason I asked him way dont he call it Slavic

My point is that Slavic folks assimilated many I2a peoples (Sarmatians) & Scythians.

And I do agree with you. There is way to much I2 in Kurdistan to consider it as a gene flow. It was a mass immigration of many I2 tribes into Kurdistan!

If it was a gene flow from the Balkans Armenians would have very much I to, at least 15%.
But there is very little I in Armenians and Turks, according to me I in Armenians is partly because of the Kurds!

Armenians are NOT Iranic. And have different roots than Kurds.

I do agree with you that I2 in Serbs and I2 in Kurds has the same origin.
 
I agree with you . . . to a point. But R1a is older than the Slavic languages and more extensive than the Slavic languages. And there is plenty of I2a (I don't know much about the "1b" part - I don't keep up with y hap I that much) in Slavic-speaking Eastern Europe. My own stepson, born in Russia, with a very Slavic Russian surname, is I2a. His closest match in Ysearch is Polish.

No doubt the original I2a men spoke a number of languages now dead, as did the first R1a men. But if you are I2a with a Slavic surname and extensive ancestry in a Slavic country, you are a Slav (if you want to be).
Yes it is I2a1b in Slavic land , but I trying to say it is from Sarmathians.We speack about origins of I2a1b .
Yes you are Slave if you are born in Slavic country , but your ancestry is not Slavic , but I also say there was never Slavic land in Balkans , only languague . Languague do not determine nationality .
 
What makes you think it is Sarmatian? My stepson would be thrilled to know that, if it is true.
 
My point is that Slavic folks assimilated many I2a peoples (Sarmatians) & Scythians.

And I do agree with you. There is way to much I2 in Kurdistan to consider it as a gene flow. It was a mass immigration of many tribes into Kurdistan!

If it was a gene flow from the Balkans Armenians would have very much I to, at least 15%.
But there is very little I in Armenians and Turks, according to me I in Armenians is partly because of the Kurds!

Armenians are NOT Iranic. And have different roots than Kurds.

I do agree with you that I2 in Serbs and I2 in Kurds has the same origin.
Yes Slavic did asimilated lot of Sarmathians and Scythians .
And yes part of I2 amongs Armenians and Turks is from mixing with Kurds
I only tried to say there is no use in counting numbers of peoples with I2a1b
 
hier is evidence there is I in Pacistan :
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201726a.html#fig1
They conect it with Greeks , but I believe it is mistake , because it would be more evenly spreaded , and I already presented evidences why I believe I2a1b comed in Greece after VI century AD

First, this is not even 0.5% :LOL:

Second, they're not mistaken, you are, Alexander's army reached this area and the fact that Burusho, Kalash, and Pathan all lack haplogroup I* and are from the same area should tell you that this is not from here nor is it significant, had it been more than that I would say you have a point, but this paper proves my theory, not yours.

And hier is map thet shows hotspot of I in Southeast Asia :
View attachment 5161
First, this is not Southeast Asia, second, I know the person who made this map very well (He's a friend of mine actually), and I'll tell you right now, take some of those maps with a grain of salt since they're not very clear.

Its from Eupedia ( and yes they dont imagine maps , but work them according to data )
Actually, I have reviewed some of the work on Eupedia and I believe their work is very flawed since they don't provide proper sources for their data, I even asked Maciamo where he get's his data from, he has yet to answer me, you can see me asking him in this thread, I'm still waiting for his respond:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...-North-Africa-to-Europe-due-to-climate-change

Now before you say Ishallah ( it could be but not necesarly ) , if you wont to realy chalenge my theories present some evidence for your own theory , or atleast some evidence that contradicts my theory . And no saying that there is more I2c than I2a in Armenia out of 4 % of total I* do not contradict my theory
I already gave you my reason why I don't believe that I* was among the Medes, its lack of presence in South-Central Asia (Iranic homeland) is my reasoning.

When I said I* I was refering on total I , and it is insignificant in Armenia
Did you read Herodothus ? He say they comed from east pushed by Masagets - and Masagets lived on Arral sea - that is not southeast Asia but Central Asia
I didnt ask you how they traveled I ask way didnt they left mark in Anatolia

Where did I say Southeast Asia? I said South-Central Asia, this consists Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, South Kazakhstan, Eastern Iran, and Northern/Western parts of Pakistan.

It is realy ignorant to say Diodorus and Pliny reports dont mean anything , and not providing any proves against it .
I say it simple :
1) when acording to you I2a1b reached Balkans?
2)when it moved from Balkans to Kurdistan?
Did you understod now?
What do Diodorus and Pliny have to do with haplogroup I2a1b? :LOL:
 
Yes Slavic did asimilated lot of Sarmathians and Scythians .
And yes part of I2 amongs Armenians and Turks is from mixing with Kurds
I only tried to say there is no use in counting numbers of peoples with I2a1b
You're right!
 
And I do agree with you. There is way to much I2 in Kurdistan to consider it as a gene flow. It was a mass immigration of many I2 tribes into Kurdistan!

A gene flow and migration are pretty much the same thing, so yes, it was a gene flow.

If it was a gene flow from the Balkans Armenians would have very much I to, at least 15%.
But there is very little I in Armenians and Turks, according to me I in Armenians is partly because of the Kurds!
Read up on "Genetic Drift" and Bottleneck", you'll get your answer there.

I do agree with you that I2 in Serbs and I2 in Kurds has the same origin.
It is the same origin, but surely, it's not an original Iranian lineage that's for sure.
 
I already gave you my reason why I don't believe that I* was among the Medes, its lack of presence in South-Central Asia (Iranic homeland) is my reasoning.
Why do you hate the Medes so much? I know you're an Assyrian and your views are not neutral but politically motivated.

Medes were native to West Asia, and didn't come from Central Asia.

WHAT makes you believe that the Medes are from Central Asia???
 
Read up on "Genetic Drift" and Bottleneck", you'll get your answer there.
Bottleneck in whole Kurdistan, from Amed to Kirkuk to Kermanshah? You are WRONG!

And yes, maybe it was a WEST Iranic lineage. Because Iranic people in East and West Asia are not racial the same folks!
 
What makes you think it is Sarmatian? My stepson would be thrilled to know that, if it is true.
I already posted my theory , but hier is another one for your stepson :

There is more reliable explanation of Sarmatian origins than that given by Herodotus( that they are descendants of Amazons and Scytians).Diodorus Siculus say that Scytians moved parts of Medians to they kingdom during they rule in Asia in VII century BC , and that Medians are called Sarmatians which means Solar Medes .And Kurds are descendants of Medians , thats why Sarmatians and Kurds both have I2a2 .
I2a2 is not a Slavic haplogroup , it is Saramatian . Slavs are mainly R1a and they are descendants of Scytians and nations they have conquered - Melanhleni , Neuri ,Androphage, ... I2a2 is strong in all regions where Sarmatians use to live : Ukraine ( coast of Black see -homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , also there was some movement of Serbs in XVIII century to east Ukraine , and there is report by Byzantine patriarch Nichophorus that parts of Serbs and Croats have escaped on empty lands in today Poland - Krakow provincea Ukraine - Lviv aeria and Slovakia( Tatras )-Bielochorbatoi and Lendzans "those who live on empty land" , in today Ukraine and Belarus ( Red Ruthenia , Galicia ) - Boiki or Rusini named after Rascia one of Serbian states in Midle ages . It is interesting that higher level of I mth haplogroup in Europe is in Boiki 10% , and that haplogroup use to be 10% in Scandinavia during Midle ages but it has decreased. ), Moldavia and Romania ( also homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , after colapse of Huns hier lives Ants whose names are Iranian- Sarmatian , also during the Hunic empire Saramatians use to live in Banat) , Sardinia ( Vandals mixed with Alans after move to Africa setled hier ,I think there is some I2 in Lybia to . Pliny say that Vandals were Saramatian nation) ,Serbia - Croatia -Bosnia -Macedonia-Montenegro (setled by Sarmatian tribes of Serbs-Serboi-Siraci and Croats -Harauati mentioned by Pliny the Elder like Sarmatian tribes ,Macedonia after XIII century), Bulgaria ( Bulgarians could partialy been Sarmatian , and there is emperor Constantine setling of 500.000 Sarmatians in Thrace , same is the case in Greece , also around Thesaloniki was first setling place of Serbs , Albania was part of Car Dušans empire , north Albania to river Liesus was in Serbian state Dioclitia-Duklja and some sources say Serbs and Croats use to hold to Apolonia - today city of Fier) , Hungary ( Magyars brought with them parts of Yazigs , in Hunic and Avar empire Sarmatians lived in Banat , and Turks chase population of Banat diper in to Hungary, there was also Serb and Croatian setling in Hungary), Slovenia( there used to live Venets probably cousins of Vandals , also great numbers of Croats escaped there infront of Turks ),north parts of Ossetians (North of Caucasus -Sarmatia untill II century AD there is strong I2a2 in some aerias of North Ossetia:: Digora 13% , Ardon 32% , Zil ga 0%, Zamankul 0% , Alagir 0% ,; there is also strong K2 Digora 0% , Ardon 7% , Zil ga 13% , Zamankul 21,7% , Alagir 8,3%( from Turks) . Strongest is the G 21-74% but that is the case in whole Caucasus ( race of goatbriders , populate all high mountins ) others are quite simillar to surounding nations - probably has something to do with custom to rape whole conquered village,haplogroup G is conected to goath breaders and is present on every big mountin like Caucasus , also high in Alpes-Austria , G could be Chimmerian- most of them finished on Caucasus after Lidians beated them ,Other higher than average densities of I occur in the Caucasus: Darginians of Dagestan 58% and Abkhazians 33%) , Czech republic ( Croats move on Balkans from there - Czech and Moravia , in X century there was a Croatian kingdom under Slavnik family , Serbs coming from Boiki - Bohemia , Bavaria and Lusitania-Lužica in Germany ) , Mordvinia republic in Russia ( in the area around Ryazansk moved groups of Roxolani, Volga Tatars has high I) ,Spain ( Alan and Vandal setlement , Katalonia, Aragon , Basque), France ( few Alanic kingdoms) , England ( 5000 Yazigian auxiliars after defeat against Marcus Aurelius- king Arthur) , Germany ( Serbs come on Balkans from river Elba-Laba , Sarland ). So all of I2a2 can be explained by Sarmatians moving - has nothing to do with Slavs .

Diferences Slavs - Serbs/Croats :Archeology shows that only in VI century there is proof of Slavic architecture on west Balkans ( one of it is village near Višegrad on Drina) , in later centuries there is no proof of Slavs on west Balkans- so called Archeological blank . If you look archeological sites of confirmed Slavs , like Kiev or village next to Višegrad , or Balaton in Hungary ,in Walachia in Romania ... you will se that they houses are partialy under ground made of wood and mud- so called zemunica , they villages are always on big rivers banks , they burn they deads and burry they ashes with no artefacts , thay use big curved one head axes and small trowing spears ,... Serbs and Croats findings are totaly diferent : they houses are made of stone and cowered with stone plates or bark of trees surounded with many smaller objects like stables , some of this objects are on slades - so they could be moved , they villages are always on mountains few miles from nearest river ( small or big ) ,Croats burry they deads without burning with a lot of artefacts , in round pits , in fetus position - like Yaziges in Banat during Avaric Khaganate , Serbs burn they deads , and puting ashes in specially builded litlle houses made of dried grass and woods , with lot of artefacts and food - similar to Ants burial customs in Moldavia ( it is believed Stećci -memorial stones in shape of house from Herzegovina mimic those burial houses), Serbs and Croats use twoheaded axes - like Sarmatians and long fighting spears .Slavic theory is based solely on languague , Sarmatians use to have more then one wife , while they use to fight , together with they Sarmatian wifes , Slavic wifes stayed at home briding childrens , so childrens had lurned Slavic languague , there is also other explanation that says Huns use Slavs like border guards ( it is proven Avars are ) , and small groups of Slavs transfered they languague like form of lingua Franca to conquered nations . It is proven that Slavic is very archaic - it has been spoken by small and closed group for over a millenium , it origins are proven to be around upper Pripyat.

There is also theory that I2a2 is paleolitic haplogroup who setled Balkans during last glacial maximum , that makes no sence because Greeks and Albanians -old popultions have less I2a2 then Serbs and Croats-newcomers , also Mesapi population of southern Italy has no I2a2 and they are Illyrians that crossed Adriatic see. What we do know with some amount of confidence is that current I2a-Din is only about 2500 years old, that it has expanded a lot, and that it has a center of diversity that seems to be north of the Balkans ,its spread showing it is grouped wich indicate there was resettling in near future , while older haplogroups - E1b1b1 , G2a and mythohondrial are more evenly spreaded all over Europe..And also if I2a2 is Peleolitic old population would make more then 80% of today Serbs which is imposible - Hunic and Avaro-Slavic invasions , litle ice age and plague that killed 30% of empire population during Justinian rule.

Kurds have K haplogroup ,and the Serbs to around 3% in some aerias up to 7% . Also Volga Tatari - inhabitants of Mordvinia republic in Russia where setled some Roxolans has 7,99% K and 18,4% I2a2 . Think that is K2 , which is present on Altay.
There is also some N in Serbs but not in neighboring nations , so they use to mix with some Finnic tribes.
I believe main Sarmatian gene was I2a2 , but they probably had lesser percent of R1a , G, J2, Q , and E1b1b , and only in Serbian case N and maybe some K2 ( aldo some researches hasnt find any K2 in Serbs ) .
Illyrians were probably E1b1b( strongest) , R1a , R1b ( some of mixing with Celts and some from Asia Minor ) , G , J, I2*B ,Q ,L and T .
Thracians were mainly J2 ( comed from Asia Minor ), E1b1, some R1a , R1b ( some of mixing with Celts and some from Asia Minor ) , G , I2*B ,Q ,L and T .
Dacians were Thracian tribe and similar to them , and Panonian to Illyrians.

I believe European Scythians mainly becamed Slavs - strong R1a , Slavs alos had some I2a2 , N , and E1b1

Hope he will be satisfy:)
 
Why do you hate the Medes very much. I know you're an Assyrian and your views are not neutral but politically motivated.

Medes were native to West Asia, and didn't come from Central Asia.

WHAT makes you think that the Medes are from Central Asia???

Here you go with your stupid paranoia again, I don't hate the Medes, I have no reason to hate them, after all I'm carrying a paternal lineage that may actually come from them, why would I hate a group that I may potentially come from? :LOL:

It's simply the truth, earlier records from Mesopotamia don't mention Medes/Persians until about the 7th century BC, and they presented themselves as "Aryans", the Aryan homeland is South-Central Asia, even the Persians themselves had a satrapy in South-Central Asia named "Aria", my reasoning is simple and has nothing to do with personal agenda, actually, my personal agenda is to promote honest truth rather than biased opinions.
 
Here you go with your stupid paranoia again, I don't hate the Medes, I have no reason to hate them, after all I'm carrying a paternal lineage that may actually come from them, why would I hate a group that I may potentially come from? :LOL:

It's simply the truth, earlier records from Mesopotamia don't mention Medes/Persians until about the 7th century BC, and they presented themselves as "Aryans", the Aryan homeland is South-Central Asia, even the Persians themselves had a satrapy in South-Central Asia named "Aria", my reasoning is simple and has nothing to do with personal agenda, actually, my personal agenda is to promote honest truth rather than biased opinions.
Not true! Medes were just the same folks as Mitanni and Kassites before them.

Earlier records from Mesopotamia mentioned Iranic folks even before the Medes.

Maybe Guti were Iranic too, and Medes are just the same as Guti but they just changed their name!
 
First, this is not even 0.5% :LOL:

Second, they're not mistaken, you are, Alexander's army reached this area and the fact that Burusho, Kalash, and Pathan all lack haplogroup I* and are from the same area should tell you that this is not from here nor is it significant, had it been more than that I would say you have a point, but this paper proves my theory, not yours.

First, this is not Southeast Asia, second, I know the person who made this map very well (He's a friend of mine actually), and I'll tell you right now, take some of those maps with a grain of salt since they're not very clear.

Actually, I have reviewed some of the work on Eupedia and I believe their work is very flawed since they don't provide proper sources for their data, I even asked Maciamo where he get's his data from, he has yet to answer me, you can see me asking him in this thread, I'm still waiting for his respond:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...-North-Africa-to-Europe-due-to-climate-change

I already gave you my reason why I don't believe that I* was among the Medes, its lack of presence in South-Central Asia (Iranic homeland) is my reasoning.



Where did I say Southeast Asia? I said South-Central Asia, this consists Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, South Kazakhstan, Eastern Iran, and Northern/Western parts of Pakistan.

What do Diodorus and Pliny have to do with haplogroup I2a1b? :LOL:
Whats your qualifications to question Eupedia. You seem like ?- man
Thats not South Central Asia it is Central Asia and Mongols and Turks replaced most of old populations , when I said Iranians comed from North you argued with me saying they comed from Pacistan
Nobody said Diodoros and Pliny has anything to do with I2a1b - you criticized my timeline and it is based on they works - Diodorus say Sarmathians are Medes . Pliny says Serbs and Croats are Sarmathians .
 
Bottleneck in whole Kurdistan, from Amed to Kirkuk to Kermanshah? You are WRONG!

And yes, maybe it was a WEST Iranic lineage. Because Iranic people in East and West Asia are not racial the same folks!

I had already said that if I* existed in Medes/Persians, it happened when they mixed with populations in West Asia, not when their ancestors lived in the Aryan homeland, and while drifts or bottlenecks don't happen to an entire population, you have to understand that the Kurds are a tribal people, so depending where you test, these weird spikes may indicate this, for that we would have to examine the samples further to determine whether a drift is a possibility or not, but for the sake of argument, if we look at this paper:

http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf

Haplogroup I* among the Zazaki's and haplogroup R2a among the Yezidi's is way too high, and since we know that these groups stick to themselves for most part, a drift is indeed the answer.
 
I had already said that if I* existed in Medes/Persians, it happened when they mixed with populations in West Asia, not when their ancestors lived in the Aryan homeland, and while drifts or bottlenecks don't happen to an entire population, you have to understand that the Kurds are a tribal people, so depending where you test, these weird spikes may indicate this, for that we would have to examine the samples further to determine whether a drift is a possibility or not, but for the sake of argument, if we look at this paper:

http://www.zazaki.org/files/Kurds.pdf

Haplogroup I* among the Zazaki's and haplogroup R2a among the Yezidi's is way too high, and since we know that these groups stick to themselves for most part, a drift is indeed the answer.
There're millions Zaza-Gorani Kurds.

But there're just 20.000 maybe even less Yezidi Kurds left in Georgia!

Medes were just the same folks as Mitanni and Kassites before them. Maybe Guti were Iranic too, and Medes are just the same as Guti but they just changed their name! Like Kurds changed their name now, from the Medes to Kurds.

Earlier records from Mesopotamia mentioned Iranic folks even before the Medes.


The biggest Iranic tribe from Central Asia that settled in Kurdistan were Parthians !!! These Parthians were related to Central Asian Aryans!
 
Not true! Medes were just the same folks as Mitanni and Kassites before them.

There's no evidence on what the Kassites were so I'll leave them out due to the irrelevance, but the Mitanni were Indo-Aryan speakers, not Iranian, we had already gone through this.

Earlier records from Mesopotamia mentioned Iranic folks even before the Medes.

Mitanni are the earliest Indo-Iranians (Indo-Aryans) mentioned in West Asian historical records, I'm not aware of any other earlier ones, do you have any sources of earlier ones? If so, please provide.

Maybe Guti were Iranic too, and Medes are just the same as Guti but they just changed their name!

Maybe is not good enough, either they were or they're not, and if they were, please provide the source confirming their Iranian heritage.
 
There's no evidence on what the Kassites were so I'll leave them out due to the irrelevance, but the Mitanni were Indo-Aryan speakers, not Iranian, we had already gone through this.



Mitanni are the earliest Indo-Iranians (Indo-Aryans) mentioned in West Asian historical records, I'm not aware of any other earlier ones, do you have any sources of earlier ones? If so, please provide.



Maybe is not good enough, either they were or they're not, and if they were, please provide the source confirming their Iranian heritage.
No, no, no, and no! A lot people claim that the Mitanni were the same as the Medes later and spoke a Proto-Iranic language.
 
Here you go with your stupid paranoia again, I don't hate the Medes, I have no reason to hate them, after all I'm carrying a paternal lineage that may actually come from them, why would I hate a group that I may potentially come from? :LOL:

It's simply the truth, earlier records from Mesopotamia don't mention Medes/Persians until about the 7th century BC, and they presented themselves as "Aryans", the Aryan homeland is South-Central Asia, even the Persians themselves had a satrapy in South-Central Asia named "Aria", my reasoning is simple and has nothing to do with personal agenda, actually, my personal agenda is to promote honest truth rather than biased opinions.
In your quest for truth, you shorely evade the truth .
1) when by your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b camed to Balkans?
2) When by Your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b moved from Balkans to Kurdistan ?
Turkic I2a1b is simple bringed by Serbs Turks settled in Anatolia during Ottoman empire rule in Balkans XIV - XIX century ( that is why it is concentrated in NorthWest), and from Kurds that mixed with Turks - if it would be in Anatolia from beforeXIV century, it % would be lot biger -
 
There's no evidence on what the Kassites were so I'll leave them out due to the irrelevance, but the Mitanni were Indo-Aryan speakers, not Iranian, we had already gone through this.



Mitanni are the earliest Indo-Iranians (Indo-Aryans) mentioned in West Asian historical records, I'm not aware of any other earlier ones, do you have any sources of earlier ones? If so, please provide.



Maybe is not good enough, either they were or they're not, and if they were, please provide the source confirming their Iranian heritage.

In your quest for truth, you shorely evade the truth .
1) when by your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b camed to Balkans?
2) When by Your oppinion ( BS or not ) I2a1b moved from Balkans to Kurdistan ?
Turkic I2a1b is simple bringed by Serbs Turks settled in Anatolia during Ottoman empire rule in Balkans XIV - XIX century ( that is why it is concentrated in NorthWest), and from Kurds that mixed with Turks - if it would be in Anatolia from beforeXIV century, it % would be lot biger -
 
And before Mitanni there were Iranic GUTI in Kurdistan. And before Guti GOD knows who. My point is that Kurdistan has been always inhabited by the Iranic tribes!

Not Assyrians or Armenians, like you want me to believe! That Assyrians & Armenians are native to Kurdistan, but Kurds are just from Central Asia, bla bla bla bull
 

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