The Celts of Iberia

[Carlos]

Atilla
I totally agree, spaniards have another class of genetic component after-effect of that melange mentioned above in your post and they know it very well.

Yes the Iberian one. In general the Spanish we have the feeling of way is Romans, I come up visigodos, I come up Phoenician or come up Greeks, already him neither to count about what we think about the topics of the Moors, any minority element would have been absorbed by the Iberian and Celtic base. In case of the Moors with more reason, that that everybody speaks of 800 years but one does not speak about the impressive ethnic purge that was carried out by them, simply could not live here. At present it is easier the racial miscellanies, mixed marriages that in past times, where impassable cultural and religious barriers existed. This topic enervates enough us, the Spanish, so it goes carefully.

Taranis
Random trivia here: 2011 is actually the 1300th anniversary of the begin of the Umayyad conquest of Iberia.

In Spain nobody is going to celebrate it. Although it would be a good date to destroy the Alhambra. All that has already remained for the books of History devoured by the dust, here we have that left much far and he is dead and buried.

 

[Wilhelm]

I totally agree again however I think you are leaving behind a very important forefather...I'm going to give a clue..they were for eight hundreds years in Iberia.

Wrong. They didn't stay for 800 years in Iberia. Only the Kingdom of Granda lasted 781 years. Most of Iberia lasted much less than that, in the North less than 200 years, some parts even less that, in the south less than 500 years, except Granada. But anyways the ethnic Moors were always a very minoritary population, and their genetic impact has been very small (between 0-3% as seen in autosomal genetic results). Plus you have to the add the fact they were expelled, and later there was a policy of blood cleansing. The vast majority of the Islamic population, were just native iberians converted.

Otherwise, Moorish impact onto the Iberian penninsula also goes without saying, especially on language and architecture.

Not really. Words of moorish origin in spanish make only 5% of vocabulary, not to mention that 1/3rd of the Spanish population doesn't have spanish as the first language, having catalan for example an insignifant amount of arabic words. As for architecture, that's another exagerated myth. Yes, you find the Alhambra and Cordoba Mosque, but that's about it. In the rest of Iberia you don't find any moorish architecture. Oh, and last but not least, the moorish architecture has many elements which are of Visigothic and Byzantine origin, like the famous archs

 

[Taranis]

In Spain nobody is going to celebrate it. Although it would be a good date to destroy the Alhambra. All that has already remained for the books of History devoured by the dust, here we have that left much far and he is dead and buried.

That statement so is inappropriate. Consider yourself warned.

 

[zanipolo]

Wrong. They didn't stay for 800 years in Iberia. Only the Kingdom of Granda lasted 781 years. Most of Iberia lasted much less than that, in the North less than 200 years, some parts even less that, in the south less than 500 years, except Granada. But anyways the ethnic Moors were always a very minoritary population, and their genetic impact has been very small (between 0-3% as seen in autosomal genetic results). Plus you have to the add the fact they were expelled, and later there was a policy of blood cleansing. The vast majority of the Islamic population, were just native iberians converted.


Not really. Words of moorish origin in spanish make only 5% of vocabulary, not to mention that 1/3rd of the Spanish population doesn't have spanish as the first language, having catalan for example an insignifant amount of arabic words. As for architecture, that's another exagerated myth. Yes, you find the Alhambra and Cordoba Mosque, but that's about it. In the rest of Iberia you don't find any moorish architecture. Oh, and last but not least, the moorish architecture has many elements which are of Visigothic and Byzantine origin, like the famous archs

since you will know the Spanish language is based on Castilian/leonese language and not the Catalan or Galician part. The catalans would have arabic words due to their trading mercahnts from the levant and Alexandria. Same as venetians and/or genoese words.
You should not be offended by this catalan associantion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language

http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Catalan/Catalan.html

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]It.[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Prendi[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]il[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]bicchiere![/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]padre / madre[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]vuole[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]cantiamo[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]troppo[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]forte[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
Cat.[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Agafa[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]el[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]got![/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]pare / mare[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]vol[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]cantem[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]massa[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]fort[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
Ven.[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Ciapa[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]el[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]gòto![/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]pare / mare[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]el[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]vol[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]cantémo[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]masa[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]fòrte[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Sp.[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]?Coge[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]el[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]vaso![/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]padre / madre[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]quiere[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]cantamos[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]demasiado[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]fuerte[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]F.[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Prend[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]le[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]verre![/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]père / mère[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]il[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]veux[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Nous[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]chantons[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]trop[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]fort[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Port.[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Pega[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]o[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]copo![/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]pai / mãe[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]quere[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]cantamos[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]demasiado[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]forte[/FONT]

as per above, Spanish and catalan are different in a lot of ways

 

[Segia2]

Wilhelm, mudéjar architecture is quite important in Spain (no matter if was partially inspired in previous cultures) The islamic rule helped to bring here many ME cultural elements -mesopotamian, persian, etc...- and those are easily detectable. It is part of our cultural heritage although we are, overall, romans (not talking about genetics, but culture)

BTW, castilian is spoken as maternal language by 89% of spaniards!

Saludos catalá

 

[Carlos]

^^

The modern Spanish we have built among all the Spanish, from north to south and from east to west, with contributions from South America, using the term Castilian only think that comes up short for a community of millions of people speaking Spanish is a national and international language.

 

[Segia2]

^^

The modern Spanish we have built among all the Spanish, from north to south and from east to west, with contributions from South America, using the term Castilian only think that comes up short for a community of millions of people speaking Spanish is a national and international language.

I use castilian because catalá, euskara and galego (among others) are spanish too.

 

[Knovas]

I totally agree again however I think you are leaving behind a very important forefather...I'm going to give a clue..they were for eight hundreds years in Iberia.

The only clue you have given is the last step to confirm your agenda. Get real, North African roots between ethnic Iberians are very low and predominantly ancient (long before the Muslim occupation). The influence is more cultural than in genetic terms, like it or not.

For the rest, totally agree with Wilhelm.

 

[Wilhelm]

Wilhelm, mudéjar architecture is quite important in Spain (no matter if was partially inspired in previous cultures) The islamic rule helped to bring here many ME cultural elements -mesopotamian, persian, etc...- and those are easily detectable. It is part of our cultural heritage although we are, overall, romans (not talking about genetics, but culture)

BTW, castilian is spoken as maternal language by 89% of spaniards!

Saludos catalá

Hold on. Mudejar architecture is NOT the same as moorish. Is an authoctnous arhictecture.

 

[Segia2]

Hold on. Mudejar architecture is NOT the same as moorish. Is an authoctnous arhictecture.

It was made by muslims -mudéjares- who were living in christian dominions, and incorporates typical elements of muslim architecture. It's a fact!

 

[Atilla]

That goes without saying, doesn't it?

No it doesn't. That's a fact.

Moorish impact onto the Iberian penninsula also goes without saying, especially on language and architecture.

Yes, you're right however I'd like to include genetic component aside from language and architecture.


Bye taranis I'm really glad to chat with you.

 

[Wilhelm]

No it doesn't. That's a fact.

Yes, you're right however I'd like to include genetic component aside from language and architecture.

Why are you so obtuse ? The genetic impact has been minimal, as atested by autosomal genetic results (0-3% admix)

It was made by muslims -mudéjares- who were living in christian dominions, and incorporates typical elements of muslim architecture. It's a fact!

Mudéjares were of iberian ethnic stock, like the vast majority of muslims, that's also a fact !

 

[sparkey]

Yes, you're right however I'd like to include genetic component aside from language and architecture.

You keep citing genetic impact without evidence. Where do you see Moorish impact, in Y-DNA? mtDNA? Autosomal DNA? I've tried to calculate an approximate impact with Y-DNA and autosomal DNA and ended up with 1-3% for both on non-Basque Iberians. That's substantial enough to be worth mentioning, but not as much as pre-IE, Celtic, etc. impact, and more on the scale of the impact of Greeks, Phoenicians, Goths, etc.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Hold on. Mudejar architecture is NOT the same as moorish. Is an authoctnous arhictecture.

Absolutely agree.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

You keep citing genetic impact without evidence. Where do you see Moorish impact, in Y-DNA? mtDNA? Autosomal DNA? I've tried to calculate an approximate impact with Y-DNA and autosomal DNA and ended up with 1-3% for both on non-Basque Iberians. That's substantial enough to be worth mentioning, but not as much as pre-IE, Celtic, etc. impact, and more on the scale of the impact of Greeks, Phoenicians, Goths, etc.

Thank you Sparkey for your clarity on this issue. All I would add is that the Suevi did have some impact in the NW of Iberia, although certainly not on the scale of the Proto-Celts and Celts.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Why are you so obtuse ? The genetic impact has been minimal, as atested by autosomal genetic results (0-3% admix)

Mudéjares were of iberian ethnic stock, like the vast majority of muslims, that's also a fact !

Oh those great Moorish-Iberian myths. Interesting that even with all the impressive advances in population genetics and the DNA revelations about Iberia some people keep on pushing the ludicrous notion that Spaniards and Portuguese are Moorish hybrids.:useless: Go figure...

Any well informed person is aware that Mudejares were ethnic Iberians who adopted the culture of the Muslim invaders. Many did so for reasons of self preservation.

 

[Atilla]

Well I'm putting some genetic studies and their sources: One in five Spaniards and Portuguese has a Jewish ancestor, while a tenth of Iberians boast North African ancestors, finds new research. This melting pot probably occurred after centuries of coexistence and tolerance among Muslims, Jews and Christians ended in 1492, when Catholic monarchs converted or expelled the Islamic population, called Moriscos. Sephardic Jews, whose Iberian roots extend to the first century AD, received much the same treatment. "They were given a choice: convert, go, or die," says Mark Jobling, a geneticist at the University of Leicester, UK. Some of those that became Christian would have ended up contributing genes to the Iberian pool. Historians know that some Sephardic Jews – Conversos or Cristãos Novos – integrated into Spanish and Portuguese society, while previous genetic studies have uncovered North African heritage in a small proportion of Iberians. Focusing on the Y-chromosome, which passes from father to son, Jobling's team matched each Iberian's DNA to modern Basques, North Africans, or Sephardic Jews. They chose Basques as representative of Iberians who trace their ancestry to early Europeans because studies have shown they interbred sparingly with other groups. "You're taking modern populations as proxies for past populations," Jobling says. Overall, 19.8% of Iberian men boasted Y-chromosomes that seemed to descend from a Sephardic Jew, while 10.6% of men had a North African male ancestor, Jobling's team found. Some areas were more mixed than others, though. In Catalonia, a region in northeast Spain, few men had Jewish or Muslim ancestors. High proportions of men from Galicia and Castille in northwest Spain boast a North African heritage. In nearby Asturias, numbers of men with Sephardic Jewish Y-chromosomes equal those with European chromosomes. "What's exciting about this is the way genetics is now starting to get at real details of history," he says. "10, 15 years ago, geneticists were looking at population samples of 30 or 50 individuals and seeing the broad outlines of human history." http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16200-spanish-inquisition-left-genetic-legacy-in-iberia.html

 

[Knovas]

Learn to read completely what you post agenda man. There is a very likely version in the article contradicting exceedingly well what you desperately try to prove:

Stephen Oppenheimer, of Oxford University and author of Origins of the British, calls the paper's data "a tremendous addition". However, he says much earlier migrations, 5000 to 10,000 years ago, from the Eastern Mediterranean might confound Sephardic estimates.
"They are really assuming that they are looking at his migration of Jewish immigrants, but the same lineages could have been introduced in the Neolithic," he says.



In your dishonest way to brown Spaniards, the only thing you achive is a shoot in your own face. Introduced in the Neolithic means that today most of the original autosomes have been largely replaced. No significant connection guy.

It's time to stop with the circus.

 

[sparkey]

I agree with Knovas, the apparent Y-DNA similarities between Spaniards and Jews/North Africans is primarily the result of more ancient connections. We see that with E1b-M81, for example... some is Moorish, surely, but the significant amount all the way up into France indicates that at least a substantial amount is more ancient. Trying to separate out the Medieval Moorish component of the E1b-M81 in Iberia can be tricky, but it tends to give low-single-digits no matter how you go about it. 10% is obviously too high. (And 20% Jewish? Come on...)

 

[Knovas]

Those percents are ridiculous, nothing left to say. Anyone with little knowledge knows what the Catholic Kings did with Jews. Very few of them has survived till modern days, and not precisely in Spain since they migrated to Italy, Turkey and other places.