The Celts of Iberia

Status
Not open for further replies.
sparkey said:
I agree with Knovas, the apparent Y-DNA similarities between Spaniards and Jews/North Africans is primarily the result of more ancient connections. We see that with E1b-M81, for example... some is Moorish, surely, but the significant amount all the way up into France indicates that at least a substantial amount is more ancient. Trying to separate out the Medieval Moorish component of the E1b-M81 in Iberia can be tricky, but it tends to give low-single-digits no matter how you go about it. 10% is obviously too high. (And 20% Jewish? Come on...)
Click to expand...
Actually the study used also the haplogroup G2a for the Sephardic estimate ! And some other subclade of E3b as well. What's more, that study divided the ancestral components as only 3 : Iberian-Sephardic-Moorish. They even used R1b for the Iberian estimate ! A completley non-sensical study. PLus, we are talking about HAPLOGROUPS here, not AUTOSOMAL (which is what determines overall ancestral admixtrure). What's more, there are many countries in Europe that have more J1+J2+G2a+E3b than Spain : Austria, Switzerland, Bulgaria, Italy, Greece, Romania, Macedonia, Hungary, etc.
 
Atilla said:
Well I'm putting some genetic studies and their sources: One in five Spaniards and Portuguese has a Jewish ancestor, while a tenth of Iberians boast North African ancestors, finds new research. "You're taking modern populations as proxies for past populations," Jobling says. Overall, 19.8% of Iberian men boasted Y-chromosomes that seemed to descend from a Sephardic Jew, while 10.6% of men had a North African male ancestor, Jobling's team found. Some areas were more mixed than others, though. In Catalonia, a region in northeast Spain, few men had Jewish or Muslim ancestors. High proportions of men from Galicia and Castille in northwest Spain boast a North African heritage. In nearby Asturias, numbers of men with Sephardic Jewish Y-chromosomes equal those with European chromosomes. "What's exciting about this is the way genetics is now starting to get at real details of history," he says. "10, 15 years ago, geneticists were looking at population samples of 30 or 50 individuals and seeing the broad outlines of human history." http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16200-spanish-inquisition-left-genetic-legacy-in-iberia.html
Click to expand...
This study is based on the frequencies of haplogroups J1, J2, G2a and clades of E3b for the Sephardic Jew estimates, while these haplogroups are just West-Asian/Near-East, and have entered in Neolithic times, nothing to do with Sephardics (as recognised by the authors themselves). And second, these haplogropus are much more frequent (when combined) in other parts of Europe such as Austria, Switzerland, Hungary, etc. And third, these are haplogroup frequencies, nothing to do with autosomal, which is what determines levels of admixture.
 
I don't know why all these latin-americans are so enamorated with that non-sensical study, which has been debunked by the scientific community, even by the authors themselves (as posted by Knovas). Let's see what autosomal studies have to say :

Results: In this study we have sampled over 800 unrelated individuals from the population of Spain,
and have genotyped them with a genome-wide coverage. We have carried out linkage
disequilibrium, haplotype, population structure and copy-number variation (CNV) analyses, and
have compared these estimates of the Spanish population with existing data from similar efforts.
Conclusions: In general, the Spanish population is similar to the Western and Northern Europeans,
but has a more diverse haplotypic structure. Moreover, the Spanish population is also largely
homogeneous within itself, although patterns of micro-structure may be able to predict locations of
origin from distant regions.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2164-11-326.pdf
Click to expand...


A European wide study including Spaniards states: No significant correlation is apparent between North African admixture and geography. Genetic exchanges across the Mediterranean Sea, and especially in its western-most part where the geographic distance between continents is smallest (Spain), seem to have been limited or very limited, establishing the North African contribution at between 2.5% and 3.4%. [39][40]

Dupanloup, I. (2004). "Estimating the Impact of Prehistoric Admixture on the Genome of Europeans". Molecular Biology and Evolution 21 (7): 1361. doi:10.1093/molbev/msh135. PMID 15044595.
Click to expand...


Haplogroup composition of the ancient Iberians was very similar to that found in modern Iberian Peninsula populations, suggesting a long-term genetic continuity since pre-Roman times [6] [7] [8].


Wade, Nicholas (August 13, 2008). "The Genetic Map of Europe". The New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html. Retrieved October 17, 2009.
Click to expand...
"An analysis of 11 Alu insertion polymorphisms...has been performed in several NW African...and Iberian...populations. Genetic distances and principal component analyses show a clear differentiation of NW African and Iberian groups of samples, suggesting a strong genetic barrier matching the geographical Mediterranean Sea barrier. The restriction to gene flow may be attributed to the navigational hazards across the Straits, but cultural factors must also have played a role. ... Iberian samples show a substantial degree of homogeneity and fall within the cluster of European-based genetic diversity."
(Comas et al. 2000)
Click to expand...
 
Knovas said:
Learn to read completely what you post agenda man. There is a very likely version in the article contradicting exceedingly well what you desperately try to prove:

Stephen Oppenheimer, of Oxford University and author of Origins of the British, calls the paper's data "a tremendous addition". However, he says much earlier migrations, 5000 to 10,000 years ago, from the Eastern Mediterranean might confound Sephardic estimates.
"They are really assuming that they are looking at his migration of Jewish immigrants, but the same lineages could have been introduced in the Neolithic," he says.

:D

In your dishonest way to brown Spaniards, the only thing you achive is a shoot in your own face. Introduced in the Neolithic means that today most of the original autosomes have been largely replaced. No significant connection guy.

It's time to stop with the circus.
Click to expand...

He says "MIGHT confound Sephardic estimates" NOT CONFOUNDS.....and he says "the same lineages COULD HAVE BEEN introduced in the Neolithic" NOT HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED IN... You have said the words aren't right.
 
Atilla said:
He says "MIGHT confound Sephardic estimates" NOT CONFOUNDS.....and he says "the same lineages COULD HAVE BEEN introduced in the Neolithic" NOT HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED IN... You have said the words aren't right.
Click to expand...
NO. That's what he says :

"Dr. Francesc Calafell clarifies that (...) the genetic markers used to distinguish the population with Sephardim ancestry may produce distorsions. The 20% of Spaniards that are identified as having Sephardim ancestry in the study could have inherited that same marker from older movements like the Phoenicians, or even the first Neolithic settlers thousands of years ago"
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2008/12/04/ciencia/1228409780.html

But it doesn't matter. Like I said, if we apply the same methodology used in this study for the rest of Europe, Spain would get average levels (since they are based on J2, J1, G2a etc.). There are no "sephardic genes". No such thing. What there is, is haplogroup subclades wich are of Near-Eastern origin, and they are assuming (wrongly) they are of Sephardic origin. Considering that historically the sephardics were a very minoritary population (less than 2%) this 20% is obviously of much older (neolithic) origin. But I repeat, 20% is AVERAGE or even low compared to the rest of Europe. Try to use the same methodoloy with countries like Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Greece, etc and you'll get much higer levels than this 20%. Time to grow up.
 
Wilhelm, Knovas, or Cambrius: Are there any quality estimates of Jewish impact on Iberian admixture? I would guess that it's at similar levels as Jewish impact on Germans, which is quite low, but not as drastically low as Jewish impact on the English.
 
sparkey said:
Wilhelm, Knovas, or Cambrius: Are there any quality estimates of Jewish impact on Iberian admixture? I would guess that it's at similar levels as Jewish impact on Germans, which is quite low, but not as drastically low as Jewish impact on the English.
Click to expand...
Well, since there is no "jewish DNA" because jews themselves are a mix of different things, we have to look autosomally at components such as Southwest-Asian and West-Asian which are very high in Sehpardics/Ashkenazim and very low in Iberia. Actually among the lowest of all Europe. (At Dodecad for example, Ashkenazies have a combined SWA+WA of 37% while spaniards 4%, less than Germans) When looking at haplogroups, the most frequent in Jews are J1 and J2, for example, Sephardics/Ashkenazies have around 20% of J1, while Spain has 1-2% (ordinary for Europe). Jews have 20-25% of J2 and Spain has 8% , average for Europe, lower than Austria (for table frequencies see here)
 
Thanks Wilhelm. Some things are clear as day...

I really don't know sparkey. To make it short, I think nobody cares about this since such impact would be minimal (almost sure).

There was an article posted here in Eupedia telling that, actually, the Italians are the most connected with Jews. However, I don't know if the article was trully reliable (it's possible some facts were exagerated), and I don't remember if there was an specification of the Italian zones involved on this. Probably Wilhelm or Cambria know wich article I mean.
 
Wilhelm said:
Well, since there is no "jewish DNA" because jews themselves are a mix of different things, we have to look autosomally at components such as Southwest-Asian and West-Asian which are very high in Sehpardics/Ashkenazim and very low in Iberia. Actually among the lowest of all Europe. (At Dodecad for example, Ashkenazies have a combined SWA+WA of 37% while spaniards 4%, less than Germans) When looking at haplogroups, the most frequent in Jews are J1 and J2, for example, Sephardics/Ashkenazies have around 20% of J1, while Spain has 1-2% (ordinary for Europe). Jews have 20-25% of J2 and Spain has 8% , average for Europe, lower than Austria (for table frequencies see here)
Click to expand...

I'd like to see source of this. Just in case we all must read original source: Anybody said latin-americans? (please notice the authors) http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297(08)00592-2 The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula Susan M. Adams1, 12, Elena Bosch1, 12, 13, Patricia L. Balaresque1, Stéphane J. Ballereau1, Andrew C. Lee1, Eduardo Arroyo2, Ana M. López-Parra2, Mercedes Aler3, Marina S. Gisbert Grifo3, Maria Brion4, Angel Carracedo4, João Lavinha5, Begoña Martínez-Jarreta6, Lluis Quintana-Murci7, Antònia Picornell8, Misericordia Ramon8, Karl Skorecki9, 10, Doron M. Behar9, Francesc Calafell11 and Mark A. Jobling1, , 1 Department of Genetics, University of Leicester, University Road, Leicester LE1 7RH, UK 2 Laboratorio de Genética Forense y Genética de Poblaciones, Departamento de Toxicología y Legislación Sanitaria, Facultad de Medicina, Universidad Complutense de Madrid, 28040 Madrid, Spain 3 Unidad Docente de Medicina Legal, Sección de Biología Forense, Facultad de Medicina, Universidad de Valencia, 46010 Valencia, Spain 4 Instituto de Medicina Legal, Universidade de Santiago, Fundación de Medicina Xenómica–Hospital Clínico Universitario, 15706 Santiago de Compostela, Spain 5 Centro de Genética Humana, Instituto Nacional de Saúde Dr. Ricardo Jorge, Av. Padre Cruz, 1649-016 Lisboa, Portugal 6 Unidad Docente de Medicina Legal y Forense, Universidad de Zaragoza, 50.009, Zaragoza, Spain 7 Unit of Human Evolutionary Genetics, CNRS URA3012, Institut Pasteur, 75015, Paris, France 8 Laboratori de Genètica, IUNICS i Departament Biologia, Universitat de les Illes Balears, 07122 Palma de Mallorca, Spain 9 Molecular Medicine Laboratory, Rambam Health Care Campus, Haifa 31096, Israel 10 Rappaport Faculty of Medicine and Research Institute, Technion, Israel Institute of Technology, Haifa 31096, Israel 11 Institute of Evolutionary Biology (UPF-CSIC), Departament de Ciències Experimentals i de la Salut, Universitat Pompeu Fabra, 08003 Barcelona, Spain Corresponding author 12 These two authors contributed equally to this work 13 Present address: Institute of Evolutionary Biology (UPF-CSIC), Departament de Ciències Experimentals i de la Salut, Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Spain Abstract Most studies of European genetic diversity have focused on large-scale variation and interpretations based on events in prehistory, but migrations and invasions in historical times could also have had profound effects on the genetic landscape. The Iberian Peninsula provides a suitable region for examination of the demographic impact of such recent events, because its complex recent history has involved the long-term residence of two very different populations with distinct geographical origins and their own particular cultural and religious characteristics—North African Muslims and Sephardic Jews. To address this issue, we analyzed Y chromosome haplotypes, which provide the necessary phylogeographic resolution, in 1140 males from the Iberian Peninsula and Balearic Islands. Admixture analysis based on binary and Y-STR haplotypes indicates a high mean proportion of ancestry from North African (10.6%) and Sephardic Jewish (19.8%) sources. Despite alternative possible sources for lineages ascribed a Sephardic Jewish origin, these proportions attest to a high level of religious conversion (whether voluntary or enforced), driven by historical episodes of social and religious intolerance, that ultimately led to the integration of descendants. In agreement with the historical record, analysis of haplotype sharing and diversity within specific haplogroups suggests that the Sephardic Jewish component is the more ancient. The geographical distribution of North African ancestry in the peninsula does not reflect the initial colonization and subsequent withdrawal and is likely to result from later enforced population movement—more marked in some regions than in others—plus the effects of genetic drift. http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297(08)00592-2
 
Atilla said:
I'd like to see source of this. Just in case we all must read original source: Anybody said latin-americans? (please notice the authors) http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297%2808%2900592-2 The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula Susan M. Adams1, 12, Elena Bosch1, 12, 13, Patricia L. Balaresque1, Stéphane J. Ballereau1, Andrew C. Lee1, Eduardo Arroyo2, Ana M. López-Parra2, Mercedes Aler3, Marina S. Gisbert Grifo3, Maria Brion4, Angel Carracedo4, João Lavinha5, Begoña Martínez-Jarreta6, Lluis Quintana-Murci7, Antònia Picornell8, Misericordia Ramon8, Karl Skorecki9, 10, Doron M. Behar9, Francesc Calafell11 and Mark A. Jobling1, , 1 Department of Genetics, University of Leicester, University Road, Leicester LE1 7RH, UK 2 Laboratorio de Genética Forense y Genética de Poblaciones, Departamento de Toxicología y Legislación Sanitaria, Facultad de Medicina, Universidad Complutense de Madrid, 28040 Madrid, Spain 3 Unidad Docente de Medicina Legal, Sección de Biología Forense, Facultad de Medicina, Universidad de Valencia, 46010 Valencia, Spain 4 Instituto de Medicina Legal, Universidade de Santiago, Fundación de Medicina Xenómica–Hospital Clínico Universitario, 15706 Santiago de Compostela, Spain 5 Centro de Genética Humana, Instituto Nacional de Saúde Dr. Ricardo Jorge, Av. Padre Cruz, 1649-016 Lisboa, Portugal 6 Unidad Docente de Medicina Legal y Forense, Universidad de Zaragoza, 50.009, Zaragoza, Spain 7 Unit of Human Evolutionary Genetics, CNRS URA3012, Institut Pasteur, 75015, Paris, France 8 Laboratori de Genètica, IUNICS i Departament Biologia, Universitat de les Illes Balears, 07122 Palma de Mallorca, Spain 9 Molecular Medicine Laboratory, Rambam Health Care Campus, Haifa 31096, Israel 10 Rappaport Faculty of Medicine and Research Institute, Technion, Israel Institute of Technology, Haifa 31096, Israel 11 Institute of Evolutionary Biology (UPF-CSIC), Departament de Ciències Experimentals i de la Salut, Universitat Pompeu Fabra, 08003 Barcelona, Spain Corresponding author 12 These two authors contributed equally to this work 13 Present address: Institute of Evolutionary Biology (UPF-CSIC), Departament de Ciències Experimentals i de la Salut, Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Spain Abstract Most studies of European genetic diversity have focused on large-scale variation and interpretations based on events in prehistory, but migrations and invasions in historical times could also have had profound effects on the genetic landscape. The Iberian Peninsula provides a suitable region for examination of the demographic impact of such recent events, because its complex recent history has involved the long-term residence of two very different populations with distinct geographical origins and their own particular cultural and religious characteristics—North African Muslims and Sephardic Jews. To address this issue, we analyzed Y chromosome haplotypes, which provide the necessary phylogeographic resolution, in 1140 males from the Iberian Peninsula and Balearic Islands. Admixture analysis based on binary and Y-STR haplotypes indicates a high mean proportion of ancestry from North African (10.6%) and Sephardic Jewish (19.8%) sources. Despite alternative possible sources for lineages ascribed a Sephardic Jewish origin, these proportions attest to a high level of religious conversion (whether voluntary or enforced), driven by historical episodes of social and religious intolerance, that ultimately led to the integration of descendants. In agreement with the historical record, analysis of haplotype sharing and diversity within specific haplogroups suggests that the Sephardic Jewish component is the more ancient. The geographical distribution of North African ancestry in the peninsula does not reflect the initial colonization and subsequent withdrawal and is likely to result from later enforced population movement—more marked in some regions than in others—plus the effects of genetic drift. http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297(08)00592-2
Click to expand...
Bla, bla, bla. Listen, if you continue like this you'll probably be banned. How many times are you going to post this study ? Read what we are saying to you, and discuss it if you don't agree. But don't keep posting the same thing over and over like an autistic person.
As for the latin-american thing, I wasn't refering to the authors (I personally know one of them), I was refereing to the people who are so enamorated with it.
 
It's clear what he pretends. I wonder from where do people get this hate toward Spaniards/Portuguese. They need to brown us again and again to be happy, doesn't matter if it's necesary to repeat the same lie a hundred times.

Discussion is over. Time to accept it.
 
Knovas said:
It's clear what he pretends. I wonder from where do people get this hate toward Spaniards/Portuguese. They need to brown us again and again to be happy, doesn't matter if it's necesary to repeat the same lie a hundred times.

Discussion is over. Time to accept it.
Click to expand...

I don't really pretend brown you as you said. I pretend to debate based on facts. Surveys are on the table...nothing else matters.
 
Atilla said:
I don't really pretend brown you as you said. I pretend to debate based on facts. Surveys are on the table...nothing else matters.
Click to expand...
So far you have not discussed with any of us (probably because you can't). They only thing you have done is post over and over the same stupid and non-sensical study of 2008. Here is an autosomal study from Behar et al 2010 (source) using the ADMIXTURE software (same as used in the Dodecad project btw) the dark purple component peaks in Berbers, and is very low in spaniards, you can also see the Jews (Sephardic and Ashekanzi) they look halfway between europeans and levantines. The most similar looking to spaniards, are obviously the French :

46730767.jpg
 
Wilhelm said:
So far you have not discussed with any of us (probably because you can't). They only thing you have done is post over and over the same stupid and non-sensical study of 2008. Here is an autosomal study from Behar et al 2010 (source) using the ADMIXTURE software (same as used in the Dodecad project btw) the dark purple component peaks in Berbers, and is very low in spaniards, you can also see the Jews (Sephardic and Ashekanzi) they look halfway between europeans and levantines. The most similar looking to spaniards, are obviously the French :

46730767.jpg
Click to expand...

I don't pretend to discuss...I pretend to debate based on facts. But tell me something surveys aren't yours are stupid...and surveys from scientist are stupid? Come on that's not a real debate.
 
The Behar study represents FULL AMIXTURE. And Spaniards are clearly between the European diversity, nothing to do with Africans or Sephardic Jews.

Probably not enough professional for you. No surprise, obviously your objective is not to accept the evidence.
 
Knovas said:
The Behar study represents FULL AMIXTURE. And Spaniards are clearly between the European diversity, nothing to do with Africans or Sephardic Jews.

Probably not enough professional for you. No surprise, obviously your objective is not to accept the evidence.
Click to expand...

Was this survey inserted in a scientific magazine? If this is it...I'd like to know the link. Cause I think survey pretends to demonstrate de amixture of cluster of jewish, not to demonstrate spaniards don't have jewish heredity. Or am I wrong?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

This thread has been viewed 1021675 times.

Back
Top