(offtopic about Albanian)

[zanipolo]

What's neutral about presenting Albanians as Gyspies? And "many neutrals" have proven that Albanians are not different from the rest of IE Europeans. Nothing special about the Albanian genetic makeup, that's the final consensus



There's nothing logical about what you just said. Being described as Christian is not the same thing as "means Christian". All Albanians were Christian in the Middle Ages. There are Christians in Albania, they're not called Arbëresh. The continuity between Arbëresh (Medieval Albanains) and Shqiptar (Contemporary Albanians) is documented, the only illogical claim in here is yours. What did Italians call the Albanians who remained in Albania? Was there a different name? And you still didn't answer what's the name of Jewish Albanians? Surely a society that has a specific name for Christians must have one for other groups.


I asked you a question, only you, and you just lumped me with everybody else. That's extremely offensive to me. You quoted my text, so I expect you to answer only my questions.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q&A time:

That's where the majority of minorities live. Vlach, Greek, "Macedonian", even 80% of the Jevg and Gabel minorities you like to associate Ghegs. There are subgroups of Tosks: "Northern Tosks" (no specific name), Labs, Chams...Any study that separates Tosks from Labs or Chams it's not worth reading. If it gets the definition wrong [ i.e Labs=Tosk, Chams=Tosk, Arvanita (in Greece)=Tosk, Arbëresh (in Italy)=Tosk], it's not worth it. If you want to find something, try separating Tosks in the subgroups they call themselves. The only requirement of separating Albanains in different groups is the language not the religion.


The first Albanian state. Founded by Progon. You might want to search about Albanian principalities, they were not all called Arbanon, only this one. Other names were Muzakaj, Kastrioti, Dukagjini...those are the ones in the tip of my tongue right now. Arbanon/Albania apparently was the name that stuck, kinda like Goguryeo and Korea (Hanguk).

If you want to know, even the Albanian language wasn't called Arbëresh or anything similar in at least the 14th-15th century. Frang Bardhi, who wrote the first Latin-Albanian dictionary called it...Latinium-Epiroticum. There was no (recorded) controversy on the name when it was published as far as I know, so to all members here, don't start now 6 centuries later, I'm just presenting the things as they are.

Names simply change a lot. There are a lot of names referring to Albanians and I listed some of them. Try not to confuse them with the 3.09% minorities, or Vlachs or others.

Italians call them albanesi

the albanians in italy are call Arberesh due to the language .......see chart in link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbëresh_language

I will ask you then
please show me Ptolemy book 3, chapter 12 , Macedonia ....where the word albanoi appears ........there is no other appearance
I supplied the only part of the book, now supply me the text?

In regards to some being gypies ( romani )....go and complain to Fenni

 

[Finalise]

Is this guy for real? Here read about the Principality of Arbanon/Albanon, the first Albanian state, which was also called Arberia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Arbanon

Here is Britannica, I dont know what else you consider official, it's in dozens of other references, I dont have Ptolemy's book, I dont collect history books just to prove points to nutjobs on some internet forum

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/12564/Albanoi

Read that. go on wikipedia as well, there's plenty of sources. I love how this guy who doesnt even know that Arbereshe was the name of the early Albanians, comes and makes all these stupid arguments that make no sense whatsoever.

The Albanians in Italy are called Arbereshe, because they left during the 1500s, when the term "Shqiptar" didn't exist then. Arbereshe was the name of the people, that's why they are still called that. Just like Arvanites in Greece. And Arnauts in Turkey.

 

[zanipolo]

the Roman province for northern albania, montenegro areas was called Praevalitana
it comprised of dalmatian tribes, which the romans bracket under the geographical term illyria.

the only 2 tribes mentioned are the parthini in around lissus
and Taulanti in around scodra

below Praevalitana is the province of Epirus nova which is the bulk of modern albania, this was an imporatant area because it was the path ( the only road ) to byzantine from italy ( via durres). it was heavily patrolled by legions and was a migrational route as well as a trade route between Rome and byzantine

I forgot....
end of Story

 

[zanipolo]

please show me Ptolemy book 3, chapter 12 , Macedonia ....where the word albanoi appears ........there is no other appearance

 

[zanipolo]

Is this guy for real? Here read about the Principality of Arbanon/Albanon, the first Albanian state, which was also called Arberia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Arbanon

Here is Britannica, I dont know what else you consider official, it's in dozens of other references, I dont have Ptolemy's book, I dont collect history books just to prove points to nutjobs on some internet forum

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/12564/Albanoi

Read that. go on wikipedia as well, there's plenty of sources. I love how this guy who doesnt even know that Arbereshe was the name of the early Albanians, comes and makes all these stupid arguments that make no sense whatsoever.

The Albanians in Italy are called Arbereshe, because they left during the 1500s, when the term "Shqiptar" didn't exist then. Arbereshe was the name of the people, that's why they are still called that. Just like Arvanites in Greece. And Arnauts in Turkey.

please show me Ptolemy book 3, chapter 12 , Macedonia ....where the word albanoi appears ........there is no other appearance

 

[Finalise]

What are you talking about? What book 3, chapter 12? Are you disputing Ptolemy's claim or what?

There's hundreds of sources online that make a reference to an Albanoi tribe, I dont understand what the hell you're going on about?


Are you trying to say Ptolemy made it up? That you can take up with historians not me.

 

[zanipolo]

partini tribe , named after a town....some history below
[FONT=verdana, news gothic, helvetica]
[FONT=verdana, news gothic, helvetica]Demetrius of Pharos [/FONT] [FONT=verdana, news gothic, helvetica]Demetrius of Pharos (also Pharus) (Greek: Δημήτριος εκ Φάρου) was a ruler of Pharos involved in the First Illyrian War, after which he ruled a portion of the Illyrian Adriatic coast on behalf of the Romans, as a Client king.[1] He was expelled from Illyria by Rome after the Second Illyrian War and became a trusted councilor at the court of Philip V of Macedon, where he remained until his death at Messene in 214 BC. Early career Demetrius, described as Illyrian[2] or Greek,[3] was from the Greek colony on the island of Pharos (modern Hvar in Croatia), in the Adriatic Sea off the coast of Dalmatia. Under the Illyrian king Agron, he ruled Pharos, from his stronghold (Stari Grad), overlooking a sheltered harbor.[4] After Agron's death in 230 BC, Demetrius continued as ruler of Pharos under the regency of Queen Teuta, Agron's second wife and stepmother of Agron's son Pinnes, who was too young to rule.[5] First Illyrian War In 229 BC, continuing the expansion of Illyrian power that Agron had begun, Teuta systematically[6] attacked Issa, the polis of Korkyra and Epidamnus. Lissus, Apollonia and Corcyra Nigra were all threatened. The polis of Korkyra surrendered, and Demetrius was placed in charge.[7] That same season, in the first engagement of the First Illyrian War, Demetrius betrayed Teuta, gave up Corcyra to the Romans, and went over to the Roman side, acting as their guide for their campaign in Illyria. Rome was quickly victorious, Teuta fled to Rhizon in Dalmatia (modern Risan, Montenegro), and Demetrius was placed in charge[8] of most of the rest of Illyria, as a client of Rome.[9] After the war Following the war, Demetrius married Triteuta, Agron's first wife and mother of Pinnes, which consolidated his position, After which he began to renew traditional Illyrian ties with Macedonia.[10] Allied with the Macedonian king Antigonus III Doson against the Spartan king Cleomenes III, Demetrius commanded 1,600 Illyrians at the Battle of Sellasia in 222 BC.[11] After Sellasia, Demetrius began attempting to extend his control over Illyria at the expense of Rome.[12] Piracy Piracy, a well-established practice and probably an important source of income among the Illyrians,[13] had been one of the causes of the First Illyrian War. One of the conditions imposed by Rome, following that war, expressly prohibited Illyrian warships south of Lissus.[14] Nevertheless, in 220 BC, with 90 of the Illyrian galleys called lembi, Demetrius and his ally Illyrian Scerdilaidas embarked on a piratical expedition, in violation of the treaty with Rome. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, news gothic, helvetica][FONT=verdana, news gothic, helvetica] Evidence of Demetrius' influence can be seen in the treaty of alliance between Philip and Hannibal of 215 BC. One of its articles specified that any peace made with Rome would include as terms that the Romans would relinquish control of Corcyra, Apollonia, Epidamnus, Pharos, Dimale, Parthini, and Atintania and "to restore to Demetrius of Pharos all those of his friends now in the dominion of Rome."[23][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[zanipolo]

What are you talking about? What book 3, chapter 12? Are you disputing Ptolemy's claim or what?

There's hundreds of sources online that make a reference to an Albanoi tribe, I dont understand what the hell you're going on about?


Are you trying to say Ptolemy made it up? That you can take up with historians not me.

I want you to show me the official text ( albanoi ) in Latin as I cannot find it under ptolemy's works

 

[Finalise]

You know what screw this. You're a god damn idiot. You just copy paste random bullshit that have nothing to do with an argument. I dont have time for this.

I dont understand what a Partini tribe has to do with anything. You know you lost an argument, so you start pasting random irrelevant crap that have nothing to do with the topic.

I gave you all the evidence, if you dont want to believe it, that's your choice. If you think Ptolemy made it up, then believe what you want. I wasnt there to tell Ptolemy what to do. Goodbye. I wont be posting in this tread anymore.

 

[zanipolo]

You know what screw this. You're a god damn idiot. You just copy paste random bullshit that have nothing to do with an argument. I dont have time for this.

I dont understand what a Partini tribe has to do with anything. You know you lost an argument, so you start pasting random irrelevant crap that have nothing to do with the topic.

I gave you all the evidence, if you dont want to believe it, that's your choice. If you think Ptolemy made it up, then believe what you want. I wasnt there to tell Ptolemy what to do. Goodbye. I wont be posting in this tread anymore.

you forgot
end of story

I real issue here is the artificial link by albanians to illyrians ........you want to claim a history from some extinct people.
same goes for slavs claiming illyrians, germans claiming prussians, swedes claiming goths etc etc
some of you on this thread even claim epirote as albanian

You are all the same, slavs and albanians in discussion...no I am illyrian, no I am illyrian....boring and 100% wrong.

Are some albanians illyrians, yes
Are some croatians illyrians, yes
Are some serbians illyrians, yes
Are some bosnians illyrians, yes
Are some italians illyrians, yes
Are some greeks illyrians, yes
etc etc

Go do some historical work and find the true albanians and who they are and not be embarrased with what you find

 

[zanipolo]

looks like I have to do albanians work...

Yet, the Albanian relation to Illyrian was not so convincing to some linguists. Some scholars of ancient Balkan languages see Albanian as an extraction of Thracian instead (Katacic, Ancient Languages. Even though little is also known about Thracian, this placed Albanian among the Indo-Iranian east or "satem" group of languages as Thracian is believed to have been a "satem" language and left Illyrian within the Latin west or "centum" group assuming that Illyrian belonged there at all thus, denying the Illyrian descent of Albanian, eg:

Thracian "bur" and the Albanian "burrë" meaning "a man"
Thracian "mal" and the Albanian "mal" meaning "mount"
Thracian "karpa" and Albanian "karpe" meaning "rock"

For linguists, these correspondences between Albanian and Thracian justified their claim and left Illyrian and Albanian on the opposite sides of the IE linguistic spectrum. This also suggests that the Albanians were originally much more further inland (central Balkans) thus in close proximity to the Thracians and only later migrated southwest towards the Adriatic. Considering that the Albanian language lacks maritime terminology as the Albanian words for fish (peshk), oar (lopatë) and barge (barkë) are loaners from Latin, Slavic, and Greek respectively, this Thracian hypothesis has some logic.

 

[zanipolo]

strabo - nil on albanians, although calls illyrians pelagasians

from Pliny the Elder below

Olcinium, formerly called Colchinium, having been founded by the Colchians; the river Drilo¹⁴, and, upon it, Scodra¹⁵, a town with the rights of Roman citizens, situate at a distance of eighteen miles from the sea; besides in former times many Greek towns and once powerful states, of which all remem- brance is fast fading away. For in this region there were formerly the Labeatæ, the Enderini¹⁶, the Sasæi, the Grabæi¹⁷, properly called Illyrii, the Taulantii¹⁸, and the Pyrei. The Promontory of Nymphæum on the sea-coast still retains its name¹⁹; and there is Lissum, a town enjoying the rights of Roman citizens, at a distance from Epidaurum of 100 miles. (23.) At Lissum begins the province of Macedonia²⁰, the nations of the Parthini²¹, and behind them the Dassaretæ²². The mountains of Candavia²³ are seventy-eight miles from Dyrrhachium.

On Ptolemy ...........I cannot find anything

 

[Dianatomia]

you forgot
end of story

I real issue here is the artificial link by albanians to illyrians ........you want to claim a history from some extinct people.
same goes for slavs claiming illyrians, germans claiming prussians, swedes claiming goths etc etc
some of you on this thread even claim epirote as albanian

You are all the same, slavs and albanians in discussion...no I am illyrian, no I am illyrian....boring and 100% wrong.

Are some albanians illyrians, yes
Are some croatians illyrians, yes
Are some serbians illyrians, yes
Are some bosnians illyrians, yes
Are some italians illyrians, yes
Are some greeks illyrians, yes
etc etc

Go do some historical work and find the true albanians and who they are and not be embarrased with what you find

What is so special about Illyrians? I really can't see why someone would insist on being a descendant of an Illyrian rather than a Slav. Especially if one would actually be (speak) Slavic.

Do they want to claim that they were the first in the Balkans? Well, as for the Albanians they obviously are not. They have a lot of Neolithic ancestry.

In any case, Albanians didn't number more than 200.000 people until the 15th century. Before that they were probably much less than that. This is why we find so few medieval sources about Albanians prior to a certain era.

It was a small group of people and could therefore easily have been displaced. According to the Greeks who lived close to Arvanites, until very recently the Arvanites were very tribal. They sometimes took Greek wives, but they rarely gave their girls to marry Greeks.

It seems to me that Albanians stem from a small Balkanic tribe which has wondered around in the Balkans and slowly absorbed other Balkanic peoples who lived in those localities.

This intermixture between Albanians and other peoples can be seen in the fact that Kosovo Albanians and Tosc Albanians do show some genetic dissimilarities.
Also, this is supported by Arbereshe people from Calabria. Tosc Albanians who left Albania five centuries ago. They have considerably less Balkanic I2a and a scarcity of J2 chromosomes. This points out that during the Ottoman era, Albanians may have absorbed a considerable amount of Greeks, Vlachs and Slavs.

This research will shed more light on this: http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html

On the other hand it could be so that Arberesh have intermixed to a degree that they do not really have a strong connection with the Albanians. But low amounts of the J2 variant remains puzzling since Southern Italy has much of it.

 

[Yetos]

You know what screw this. You're a god damn idiot. You just copy paste random bullshit that have nothing to do with an argument. I dont have time for this.

I dont understand what a Partini tribe has to do with anything. You know you lost an argument, so you start pasting random irrelevant crap that have nothing to do with the topic.

I gave you all the evidence, if you dont want to believe it, that's your choice. If you think Ptolemy made it up, then believe what you want. I wasnt there to tell Ptolemy what to do. Goodbye. I wont be posting in this tread anymore.

@ finalize,
did you search or you just bring others' people opinion,
Parthini is one of the Basic Illyrian tribes
Parthini is Illyrian tribe described by all ancient Historians,
it is evidence of Illyrian existance at illyrian wars
while Albaniapolis is not even mentioned to exist at the time of Illyrian wars.
neither tribe Albanoi.
Told you the enemy is the fairy stories maker,
he earns from crup that people want to hear.

 

[Yetos]

Original Arbresh
left from Peloponese after 1534. they Lived around the castle of Κορωνη, exiled from Ottomans and Albanians.
They were allies with Mistra Despotate so they took the castle of one out of 3 feet of Peloponese
they cooperate with Kastrioti, and later with Greek Κλαδας and Βουας to restore the son of kastrioti. that is why they were hunted even south to Peloponese.


In their traditional Songs they consider as homeland the Peloponese (Μωρεας) and the town of Ναυπλιο Nafplio,
their villages had name Basilicata(from βασιλιτσι In Peloponese), Chora, Agios Demetrios(Αγιος Δημητριος) and piana dei Greci which after Mussolini 1939 changed to piana dei Albanesi!!!!

they are not considered same with Attica and Theba Arbanites (farmers) who came at 1240 after invitation of Crusaders ruler of Attica,
they caried a strange exonym like Solimi which might cognates with the other Kastrioti soldiers connected the Suliotes.
and the village Maniaki could possibly mean that they were soldiers of General Maniakis (yet this is not attested or certified)

they probably came to Peloponese after Krujia battle or after the lost effort of Kladas (Mistra Despotate-Paleologos, Maniates) to restore Kastriotis son in throne of Albania, (Ακροκοτυλος -κροκοδειλος Κλαδας)
given to them by Venice or Genoa, or Napoli's Ferdinard
the biggest battle among Spanish Doria and Ottoman Barbarosa happened there. while France-Venice wars did not help them to save their castle.

 

[Zemra]

Italians call them albanesi

the albanians in italy are call Arberesh due to the language .......see chart in link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbëresh_language

I will ask you then
please show me Ptolemy book 3, chapter 12 , Macedonia ....where the word albanoi appears ........there is no other appearance
I supplied the only part of the book, now supply me the text?

In regards to some being gypies ( romani )....go and complain to Fenni

Contemporary Albanians from Albania are called Albanesi. Medieval Albanians from Albania were called................(fill in the blank).

The chart shows nothing; it's a sub-dialect of Tosk, old news. You're talking about the language, not the Arbëreshë people. Etymology/Name Arbëresh: 1)http://bit.ly/12CT2DP 2)http://bit.ly/WZkTaB

The study you mentioned simply proved they were gypsies, not Egyptians. A waste of time if you ask me, as Gyspies were believed to have arrived from Egypt, hence the exonym.

Are you still pretending you don't have an agenda?

 

[zanipolo]

Contemporary Albanians from Albania are called Albanesi. Medieval Albanians from Albania were called................(fill in the blank).

The chart shows nothing; it's a sub-dialect of Tosk, old news. You're talking about the language, not the Arbëreshë people. Etymology/Name Arbëresh: 1)http://bit.ly/12CT2DP 2)http://bit.ly/WZkTaB

The study you mentioned simply proved they were gypsies, not Egyptians. A waste of time if you ask me, as Gyspies were believed to have arrived from Egypt, hence the exonym.

Are you still pretending you don't have an agenda?

The agenda has never changed ...see post 70

 

[Yetos]

the point is that some are creating Data out of Nothing,
for example Illyrian tribe Albanoi.
from a Ptolemy mention about Albaniapolis?,
much after Illyrian wars, where Parthini are mention,
so when you 'know' hypothetical Albanoi tribe, but not Parthini who fight at Illyrian wars. hmmm
the mention of Gypsies has to do with some other Albanians in forum , who claim
Albanian is the mother language of European languages and PanEuropean Lexicon
Albania was isolated,
Albanian population is homogenous and pure.
Global History must be rewritten and explained by Albanians,
Greek is Church language,
Latin is Church language
Slavic is church language
Hellenes (Greeks) disapear !!!! (vanished?)


so many Albanians here, but only Pixelles told them to stop,
the rest afraid, or agreed quietly
and when someone got pissed like Zanipolo (a very old member) and decided to said the other truth, and hunt the wolf
the rest like a group of dogs who are defending the floak turn to defend the wolf,
Until Taranis decide to write about Albanian language aspirations, nobody of you care,
when he did that the wolfs again try to prove that the whole IE theory is wrong.

WONT YOU THINK THAT IS TIME FOR NORMAL ALBANIANS in Forum TO FACE THE WOLF, INSTEAD OF YELL AGAINST ZANIPOLO?
OR YOU ARE WAITING FROM FOREIGN PEOPLE TO RESTORE THE 'BIG LIE'.
OR
AT LEAST SOMEONE WHO CLAIMED PTOLEMY AND ILLYRIAN TRIBE ALBANOI MUST GIVE THE SOURCE.

if not then just admit the he heard that by the 'WOLF' and never search for it, or he just thought it as possible

ancient wisdom said
ΤΟ ΔΙΣ ΕΞΑΜΑΡΤΕΙΝ ΟΥΚ ΑΝΔΡΟΣ ΣΟΦΟΥ
SECOND TIME SAME MISTAKE NOT A WISE MAN,
ΟΜΟΙΟΣ ΟΜΟΙΩ ΑΕΙ ΠΕΛΑΖΕΙ
someone always supports same quality person.

so according who someone is supporting I can tell you who he is.
and seems like the same lie is supported by many people that carry strange flags, (I wonder why) and not by Zanipolo.
So better search who spreads these lies and why.
instead of calling someone ex-Yugoslavian and enemy, someone who I know that spoke about educational books in Yugoslavia like Olga Popppovic's book, find the other guys or at least search if they are telling the truth.

ACADEMY AND SCIENCE IS NOT A MILITARY CAMP WHERE SOMEONE IS GIVING ORDERS TO SPEAK OR STOP,
AND NEITHER TRUTH IS ENEMY.

 

[zanipolo]

What is so special about Illyrians? I really can't see why someone would insist on being a descendant of an Illyrian rather than a Slav. Especially if one would actually be (speak) Slavic.

Do they want to claim that they were the first in the Balkans? Well, as for the Albanians they obviously are not. They have a lot of Neolithic ancestry.

In any case, Albanians didn't number more than 200.000 people until the 15th century. Before that they were probably much less than that. This is why we find so few medieval sources about Albanians prior to a certain era.

It was a small group of people and could therefore easily have been displaced. According to the Greeks who lived close to Arvanites, until very recently the Arvanites were very tribal. They sometimes took Greek wives, but they rarely gave their girls to marry Greeks.

It seems to me that Albanians stem from a small Balkanic tribe which has wondered around in the Balkans and slowly absorbed other Balkanic peoples who lived in those localities.

This intermixture between Albanians and other peoples can be seen in the fact that Kosovo Albanians and Tosc Albanians do show some genetic dissimilarities.
Also, this is supported by Arbereshe people from Calabria. Tosc Albanians who left Albania five centuries ago. They have considerably less Balkanic I2a and a scarcity of J2 chromosomes. This points out that during the Ottoman era, Albanians may have absorbed a considerable amount of Greeks, Vlachs and Slavs.

This research will shed more light on this: http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html

On the other hand it could be so that Arberesh have intermixed to a degree that they do not really have a strong connection with the Albanians. But low amounts of the J2 variant remains puzzling since Southern Italy has much of it.

the albanians want everyone to know they are illyrians so then they can claim all old illyrian lands as albanian lands ...........its very laughable.
Rome should claim all of western europe........LOL

 

[kamani]

so many Albanians here, but only Pixelles told them to stop,
the rest afraid, or agreed quietly

afraid of you!! hahahhaha
there is a lot of proof in this thread but you guys just ignore it and continue "beating your own drum"; can't have a discussion like that. You seem to be wanting documented y-dna, and language tests for all albanians for the last 4000 years.

Let me tell you a story about Socrates from your dear greece, maybe this is going to sink in...
Due to his forcefulness in argument, men attacked him with their fists or tore his hair out, that most of the time he was laughed at and despised, and yet he bore all these things patiently. Even when he had been kicked, and someone was surprised at how quietly he took it, Socrates said, "If a donkey had kicked me, should I have taken him to court?"