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Veneti

Hi Zanipolo, this is very very interesting to me! Please, which is the scientific article or book from which you took the datas? Which is the source of this?

ciao piero, how is the new book coming?

I previously attached all articles. See previous messages by me.

On the matter of MtDna in Veneto, do you have any information. The last I have is this which is 10 years old

West Veneto
H - 42.1%
T - 26.3%
U - 13.2%
X - 7.9%
J - 5.3%
V - 2.6%
preV - 2.5%
HV- 0
I - 0

East Veneto
H - 40.0%
J -16.7%
T - 16.7%
I - 6.7%
V - 6.7%
U+K - 6.7%
HV - 3.3%

Combined
H - 41.1%
T - 22.0%
J - 10.3%
U - 5.9%
K - 5.9%
V - 4.4%
X - 4.4%
I - 2.9%
HV - 1.4%
preV - 1.4%

With Italy only registering 33% for H ( which includes Veneto ), if we take Veneto out, Italy will be approx. 30% which is 10% lower than the European average...........Italy could not have had H mtDna as early as the others
 
@piero

IIRC you said in your old book that Veneti and Venedi where the same ( or you believed they where the same people) . the following might interest you

The amber trail which started around 2000BC was commenced by the Aestii tribe , through another branch of the aestian confederation tribe, called Venedi, through to Noricum, then into veneto and onto the trade hub called Este
similar - AEstii -Este
it was then given/sold to phoenicians in the Adriatic to be sold in the med.

I did come across an old Noricum alphabet and curiously the venetian alphabet has the exact same letters 100% although the Noricum one has more letters.

Which leads me to the 2006 , 60 pages article on the venetic language being Finnic....written by Paabo.

You can investigate this further as I am unaware on what articles you possess.

.................................

on Another matter, the istrians ( histri people ) are said to be Colchians who traveled up the danube river. Later these colchians from the black sea took some Jazyges ( minor sarmatian tribe ) to istria as well, The picene are said to be also colchians mixed with illyrians, part article below

picea, a pine tree, because it was perhaps full of such; but it seems as probably to have taken it's name from the Piki a people beyond Colchis, and subject to the Colchian kingdom; for the ancients agree that a colony from Colchis settled on the Ister, in the time of the Argonauts, and it is most likely that it was at its mouth.
For tho Apollonius Rhodius book IV, and Justin xxxii. 3. make the Istri on the Adriatic that colony, which by their own accounts of the Col∣chians sailing up the Danube to the Adriatic.

Solus ad egressus missus septemblicis Istri,
Parrhasiae gelido virginis axe prenor.
Jazyges, et Colchi, Metereaque turba, Getaeque,
Danubii mediis vix prohibentur aquis.

Trist. lib. II. el. 1.

 
Zanipolo, what do you think about this thesis?

Tacitus, roman historian, wrote that the language spoken in northeast Baltic region was similar to that spoken in Great Britain. In Brittany was probably living a not Celtic people: that people were the Venets, traders at the two sides of the English Channel. When Julius Caesar defeated the Venet fleet, the Venets escaped to the forest and then to Great Britain. With the Roman conquest of the island the Venets escaped up to the north beyond the Antonine wall, in Scotland. After the Roman withdrawal from the island, under the leadership of king Cunedda the Venets went down to northern Wales. There they established the kingdom of Gwynedd, that is the kingdom of Venets. The original adventures of king Arthur took place exactly in Gwynedd and probably king Arthur was a descendant of Cunedda. So we can object to the prejudice of a Celtic origin of Arthurian legend, for a Venetic origin.
 
Zanipolo, what do you think about this thesis?

Tacitus, roman historian, wrote that the language spoken in northeast Baltic region was similar to that spoken in Great Britain. In Brittany was probably living a not Celtic people: that people were the Venets, traders at the two sides of the English Channel. When Julius Caesar defeated the Venet fleet, the Venets escaped to the forest and then to Great Britain. With the Roman conquest of the island the Venets escaped up to the north beyond the Antonine wall, in Scotland. After the Roman withdrawal from the island, under the leadership of king Cunedda the Venets went down to northern Wales. There they established the kingdom of Gwynedd, that is the kingdom of Venets. The original adventures of king Arthur took place exactly in Gwynedd and probably king Arthur was a descendant of Cunedda. So we can object to the prejudice of a Celtic origin of Arthurian legend, for a Venetic origin.

Hi piero

Zanipolo is dead, once he reached the status of King, he was beheaded........I will replace him.


Your theory is an old theory which is still spoken of today by celtic and gaelic people...................I have no opinion. But its seems that the Unelli ( veneti neighbours) plays a big part somewhere ( cotentin peninsula)

ciao, fa ben per noi !
 
Wow Piero, very interesting haplogroups for an italian, full Neolithic. G is common in Georgia (30%), the Ossetian people of the Caucasus (88%), parts of turkey,Armenia,Azerbaijan,Iran (10%). In Europe, it is most present in southern Italians and north Sardinians (15%). Also found in 10% of parts of island of Crete. Your mtdna, HV, is also rare in Europe. It reflects a more ancestral form of H than most European females today have. Most italian females are mtdna group H (40%). It is very common west European female DNA. Being HV, this means you have a much more ancestral form; this indicates that your female ancestor may have arrived more recently to Italy, from the Middle East. Your y-DNA G paternal marker tells us the same exact story.
 
Piero: on haplogroup mtdna HV:

Haplogroup HV is a west Eurasian haplogroup found throughout the Near East, including Anatolia (present-day Turkey) and the Caucasus Mountains of southern Russia and the republic of Georgia. It is also found in parts of East Africa, particularly in Ethiopia, where its presence there indicates recent Near Eastern gene flow, likely the result of the Arab slave trade over the last two millennia.

This lineage accounts for around 21 percent of maternal lineages in Armenia. It is about 8-10 percent of those in Turkey and about 5 percent of those in Croatia. Across much of Europe, this line is present at low frequencies of around 1 percent. This lineage accounts for about 7 percent of the population of both India in South Asia and the United Arab Emirates in West Asia.

Piero, I don't know where in Italy you come from, but you have Neolithic blood from both sides. It's like there is a perfect match between your area and heavy Neolithic influence. It's like your y-DNA G goes along with your mtdna HV in terms of its middle eastern, Caucasus region in particular, origin. You must cluster very heavily with Georgians,Armenians some Turks, Nakh peoples or maybe Azeri/Iranians.
 
I know that G becomes more frequent in northern Apulia, Central Calabria, a few spots in Sicily and northern Sardinia. It is evidence of Neolithic gene flow from the middl east, most certainly via Anatolia towards the south-central Mediterranean region. G1 has it's highest diversity in Iran possibly; highest frequency is in Georgia (30%) and the Ossetian Nakh people of the Caucasus (88%). Most G today is G2a (P15) or G2; the G1 is much rarer in overall frequency. In total, 15% of southern italian males belong to G, but near Apulia's Gargano peninsula (Foggia) about 25% of men are G. 10% are G in the city of L'Aquila (oddly T is at 20% and L (Indian subcontinent) at 10%. Central Calabria can have cities with up to 20% G, same for parts of Sicily and Sardinia. Cretans have about 10-11% G. Mainland Greeks have 7.5% G; a European high.
 
Piero: on haplogroup mtdna HV:

Haplogroup HV is a west Eurasian haplogroup found throughout the Near East, including Anatolia (present-day Turkey) and the Caucasus Mountains of southern Russia and the republic of Georgia. It is also found in parts of East Africa, particularly in Ethiopia, where its presence there indicates recent Near Eastern gene flow, likely the result of the Arab slave trade over the last two millennia.

This lineage accounts for around 21 percent of maternal lineages in Armenia. It is about 8-10 percent of those in Turkey and about 5 percent of those in Croatia. Across much of Europe, this line is present at low frequencies of around 1 percent. This lineage accounts for about 7 percent of the population of both India in South Asia and the United Arab Emirates in West Asia.

Piero, I don't know where in Italy you come from, but you have Neolithic blood from both sides. It's like there is a perfect match between your area and heavy Neolithic influence. It's like your y-DNA G goes along with your mtdna HV in terms of its middle eastern, Caucasus region in particular, origin. You must cluster very heavily with Georgians,Armenians some Turks, Nakh peoples or maybe Azeri/Iranians.

Well, that's something I'd like to see...I've never seen an Italian cluster with Caucasus people in any academic PCA of autosomal variation; in fact I've rarely seen them cluster with anyone except Italians on those plots (except a few northerners who stray into France on certain plots, or into the northern Mediterranean toward northern Spain, or start veering toward the Balkans, or some far southern Italians who may overlap with some Greeks and with some Ashkenazi.)

Their results on autosomal calculators are certainly very different, with actual Caucasus people having 20-30% more of the Caucasus component, and then additional Siberian, South Asian and East Asian in minor quantities. The percent Mediterranean is very different too.

Ed. I do respect the work that 23andme does, and although their Global Similarity Tool is outdated, it's an honest analysis, and there were two or three southern Italians who clustered in the Ashkenazi section, if I recall correctly. The 23andme PCA plot of all their participants was better, in my opinion.
 
Wow Piero, very interesting haplogroups for an italian, full Neolithic. G is common in Georgia (30%), the Ossetian people of the Caucasus (88%), parts of turkey,Armenia,Azerbaijan,Iran (10%). In Europe, it is most present in southern Italians and north Sardinians (15%). Also found in 10% of parts of island of Crete. Your mtdna, HV, is also rare in Europe. It reflects a more ancestral form of H than most European females today have. Most italian females are mtdna group H (40%). It is very common west European female DNA. Being HV, this means you have a much more ancestral form; this indicates that your female ancestor may have arrived more recently to Italy, from the Middle East. Your y-DNA G paternal marker tells us the same exact story.

buy Piero's books and maybe more can be revealed

La dea veneta. Dal Baltico alla Bretagna by Piero Favero (Jan 1, 2012)


Reitia. Dea dei veneti. L'Iliade svelata

Piero Favero




http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/A...051/unrestricted/Final_Report_B10_Origins.pdf

the different theories in link above

As by some, veneti come from the Pala people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaic_language

My views are the same, I believe in some or part of the above but do not believe in it all....yet.

I am still not convinced that veneti came from anatolia based on Homer.
Herodutus was found to be the only correct historian in placing the etruscans, so he states the veneti are ancient illyrians from pannonian lands .............i see he as the most legitimate person
 
Well, that's something I'd like to see...I've never seen an Italian cluster with Caucasus people in any academic PCA of autosomal variation; in fact I've rarely seen them cluster with anyone except Italians on those plots (except a few northerners who stray into France on certain plots, or into the northern Mediterranean toward northern Spain, or start veering toward the Balkans, or some far southern Italians who may overlap with some Greeks and with some Ashkenazi.)

Their results on autosomal calculators are certainly very different, with actual Caucasus people having 20-30% more of the Caucasus component, and then additional Siberian, South Asian and East Asian in minor quantities. The percent Mediterranean is very different too.

Ed. I do respect the work that 23andme does, and although their Global Similarity Tool is outdated, it's an honest analysis, and there were two or three southern Italians who clustered in the Ashkenazi section, if I recall correctly. The 23andme PCA plot of all their participants was better, in my opinion.

hmm, 23andme needs to update there data ( along with dodecad...5 people needs to be 10 tested ). Below is my 23andme



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
 
Hi Sile
ceo'

Then again Elisa Perego contributes here, so I imagine you might know about this site.

I meet personally the archaelogist Elisa Perego, we visit together the ancient Veneti exhibition "Venetkens", in Padova.

What now I'm looking for at the moment is a link between "Wendi" of Baltic Vistula river region and "Veneti" of Brittany. There were a lot of amber jewels both in Brittany and in England, maybe amber trading is the link between the two regions. At the moment I can not see any haplogroups link. What is your opinion?
 
Adamo :-)
I'm really very grateful to you for your post about my paternal G and female HV haplogroups origins.
Piero, I don't know where in Italy you come from, but you have Neolithic blood from both sides. It's like there is a perfect match between your area and heavy Neolithic influence. It's like your y-DNA G goes along with your mtdna HV in terms of its middle eastern, Caucasus region in particular, origin. You must cluster very heavily with Georgians,Armenians some Turks, Nakh peoples or maybe Azeri/Iranians.
If I ask for sub-clades test, can I have some more interesting genetic news about my origin?
In my opinion (no scientific basis about that) I can imagine that my ancestors migrated from caucasus to Anatolia, along Dnieper river they reach central Europe and than they stay some centuries in Bavaria, were G haplogroup is concentrated; finally they went down to Veneto, were I was born. Is it only fantasy or is it a possible way?
 
You should have your haplogroup G further tested, in most probabilities it is G2a, which traces a "high frequency zone" moving from Georgia and eastern turkey towards western turkey to Greece, and from Greece to southern Italy and then Sardinia. These haplogroup G2a men were Neolithic agriculturalists that entered europe recently (10,000-15,000 years) they moved from the Caucasus, (Georgia in particular) through turkey, into the Mediterranean world, moving from Greece to the southern portion of Italy, were still today, there are European highs in italian regions such as Campobasso or Catanzaro, were 20-25% of the males are G (highest frequency of G in Europe). Parts of norther Sardinia also have abnormally high frequencies (10-20%) but southern Italy is the peak. Greece has very low frequencies in totality, except for a high of 12% in the Thessaly region. As for the father mutation of G2a; the older G* (the most basal G mutation) seems to have highest age and frequency on the west Iranian plateau. G2a although, the line found in most European and Caucasus region G men, originated in the general region of Georgia, and from there migrated to the Mediterranean world in low, but present frequencies.
 
With both your (Y-DNA) line and your MTDNA line being haplogroup G and haplogroup HV; this would mean that both your father's paternal lineage and your mother's maternal lineage arrived in Europe relatively recently (Neolithic period) compared to other more "European" populations/haplogroups such as HV's succeeding "H" or "V" mutations or paternal line R1b, I; these men have been in Europe the longest time. Whereas your ancient ancestors, at least it seems, on both sides, arrived by boat from the east....probably from Turkey and further back from Georgia.....it seems your maternal side has a similar story; a more recent middle eastern link that most European males/females do not have.
 
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Haplogroup G1 may have originated as far as the Himalayan foothills; somewhere near eastern Iran/Pakistan, this is a possibility as well, and then it traveled west towards the central "middle east"
 
All the information you would like to know on HV:

Descending from haplogroup R were a group of individuals who formed a western Eurasian lineage. The descendants of pre-HV live in high frequencies in the Anatolian-Caucasus region and Iran. While members of this group can also be found in the Indus Valley near the Pakistan-India border, their presence is considered the result of a subsequent migration eastward of individuals out of the Near East.


Individuals in haplogroup pre-HV can be found all around the Red Sea and widely throughout the Near East. While this genetic lineage is common in Ethiopia and Somalia, individuals from this group are found at highest frequency in Arabia. Because of their close genetic and geographic proximity to other western Eurasian clusters, members of this group living in eastern Africa are the likely result of more recent migrations back into the continent.


As we have seen from haplogroups N and R, descendants from these western Eurasian lineages used the Near East as a home base of sorts, radiating from that region to populate much of the rest of the world. Their descendants comprise all of the western Eurasian genetic lineages, and about half of the eastern Eurasian mtDNA gene pool. Some individuals moved across the Middle East into Central Asia and the Hindus Valley near western India. Some moved south, heading back into the African homeland from where their ancestors had recently departed.


Haplogroup pre-HV is of particular importance because over the course of several thousand years, its descendants split off and formed their own group, called HV. This group—thanks in large part to a brutal cold spell that was about to set in—gave rise to the two most prevalent female lineages found in Western Europe.


While some descendants of these ancestral lineages moved out across Central Asia, the Indus Valley, and even back into Africa, your ancestors remained in the Near East. Descending from haplogroup pre-HV, they formed a new group, characterized by a unique set of mutations, called haplogroup HV.


Haplogroup HV is a west Eurasian haplogroup found throughout the Near East, including Anatolia (present-day Turkey) and the Caucasus Mountains of southern Russia and the republic of Georgia. It is also found in parts of East Africa, particularly in Ethiopia, where its presence there indicates recent Near Eastern gene flow, likely the result of the Arab slave trade over the last two millennia.


Much earlier, around 30,000 years ago, some members of HV moved north across the Caucasus Mountains and west across Anatolia, their lineages being carried into Europe for the first time by the Cro-Magnon. Their arrival in Europe heralded the end of the era of the Neanderthals, a hominid species that inhabited Europe and parts of western Asia from about 230,000 to 29,000 years ago. Better communication skills, weapons, and resourcefulness probably enabled them to outcompete Neanderthals for scarce resources. Importantly, some descendants of HV had already broken off and formed their own group, haplogroup H, and continued the push into Western Europe.


Today, members of this line are part of the populations of Europe, West Asia (including Anatolia), and the Caucasus Mountains of South Russia and the Republic of Georgia.


This lineage accounts for around 21 percent of maternal lineages in Armenia. It is about 8 percent of those in Turkey and about 5 percent of those in Croatia. Across much of Europe, this line is present at low frequencies of around 1 percent. This lineage accounts for about 7 percent of the population of both India in South Asia and the United Arab Emirates in West Asia.
 
HV is heavily associated with middle eastern females from Turkey, southern mountains of Russia, Georgia. It is found in Ethiopia as recent middle eastern gene flow. It is native to one fifth (21%) of Armenian females. HV in it's pre-HV form is most frequent in Iran and the Anatolia/Caucasus region. The presence of pre-HV in women from the Indus Valley (Pakistan/India border region) is considered as having arrived there first from the Middle East where it originated. Pre-HV can also be found by the Red Sea and at high frequencies across Arabia as well.
 
A map of HV shows a high in Iraq and the next highest frequencies are parts of Armeniz,Azerbaijan,Iran and lower but still higher than normal frequencies are found across turkey, the Arabian peninsula, southern Russia were probably Chechens and Nakh people's would live, and parts of Central Asia near Pakistan,Afghanistan etc. HV has a small high in the Tuscany region of Italy were the ancient Etruscans would have inhabited; it's a European hi although the frequencies are very low regardless.
 
A map of HV shows a high in Iraq and the next highest frequencies are parts of Armeniz,Azerbaijan,Iran and lower but still higher than normal frequencies are found across turkey, the Arabian peninsula, southern Russia were probably Chechens and Nakh people's would live, and parts of Central Asia near Pakistan,Afghanistan etc. HV has a small high in the Tuscany region of Italy were the ancient Etruscans would have inhabited; it's a European hi although the frequencies are very low regardless.

There is very little HV in Veneto...breakdown of Mtdna in Veneto below


West Veneto
H - 42.1%
T - 26.3%
U - 13.2%
X - 7.9%
J - 5.3%
V - 2.6%
preV - 2.5%
HV- 0
I - 0

East Veneto
H - 40.0%
J -16.7%
T - 16.7%
I - 6.7%
V - 6.7%
U+K - 6.7%
HV - 3.3%

Combined
H - 41.1%
T - 22.0%
J - 10.3%
U - 5.9%
K - 5.9%
V - 4.4%
X - 4.4%
I - 2.9%
HV - 1.4%
preV - 1.4%
 
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