Illyrian-Albanian Continuity

[Ike]

On Bosnian it literally means:

bure = barrel
bista= bust

So it could connotate a person with a large chest

 

[Sile]

I do not think that Thraco-Dacians came to Balkans at around 100 AD,for the simple reason there are Dacian kings attested before this date.
So because they were there,they have been invaded,the part South of Danube,before 0 AD.
For example,Burebista - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burebista attested between 82BC to 44BC.
Ilyrians are mentioned there,as livings South of Danube together with Thracians,when Burebista went on an expedition against Celts that were spread South of Danube,between Ilyrians and Thracians.
Which shows that Thracians were there also,not only Ilyrians,how some Albanians here want to distort the historic truth.
EDIT
Oh,forgot one thing,Romanian language have borrowings from Old Greek,which Albanian do not have.
If Albanians would have been there and they are from Ilyrians,how come they do not have borrowings from Ancient/Old Greek language?

Greek historians state the oldest race in the Balkans apart from Greeks are Thracians...............that's it

 

[Ike]

BTW, while we talk about Abanian continuity, could someone explain to me black/red dresses and characteristic white cap in North Africa among Kabyles? More on the Kabyles here.

 

[Sile]

BTW, while we talk about Abanian continuity, could someone explain to me black/red dresses and characteristic white cap in North Africa among Kabyles? More on the Kabyles here.

looks like same ethnicity and cultural traits

where is this place exactly?

 

[Bardhyl]

BTW, while we talk about Abanian continuity, could someone explain to me black/red dresses and characteristic white cap in North Africa among Kabyles? More on the Kabyles here.

I mean you posted the picture explain it yourself... You are just mad you are a slav, and thats why you always are trying to find ways to de-europanize albanians...somewhere in the world searchin similarities...your just mad at your race and throw it at ours...first of all, find the language of that population...etc. Etc. They are in algeria right, so they should be E HG but 100% not e-v13, because that was created in europe after coming from africa a long time ago like at least 3000 to 6500 years before slavs came. Because e-v13 is expected to be in europe since at least 6000bc

 

[MOESAN]

I mean you posted the picture explain it yourself... You are just mad you are a slav, and thats why you always are trying to find ways to de-europanize albanians...somewhere in the world searchin similarities...your just mad at your race and throw it at ours...first of all, find the language of that population...etc. Etc. They are in algeria right, so they should be E HG but 100% not e-v13, because that was created in europe after coming from africa a long time ago like at least 3000 to 6500 years before slavs came. Because e-v13 is expected to be in europe since at least 6000bc

Bardhyl, the posting of a picture is not a crime anyway -
surely Ike had some idea in the back of his head but we don't know what, so...
Your remarks about language and SNPs of Y-E1b are sensible, putting a definitive difference between Kabyles and Albanians or other Balkanians-
since we are about this matter, I recall the scottish tartans the Portuguese fishermen of Nazaré made their trousers with...
today people in Europe wear all kinds of dress according to seasons evocating Polynesia or Inuit "lands" - the Celts nobility loaned the roman helms etc... and at some stage of their history the Scythian pants, if what I red is true...

 

[Sile]

I mean you posted the picture explain it yourself... You are just mad you are a slav, and thats why you always are trying to find ways to de-europanize albanians...somewhere in the world searchin similarities...your just mad at your race and throw it at ours...first of all, find the language of that population...etc. Etc. They are in algeria right, so they should be E HG but 100% not e-v13, because that was created in europe after coming from africa a long time ago like at least 3000 to 6500 years before slavs came. Because e-v13 is expected to be in europe since at least 6000bc

let Ike prove it with Genetics, ............but the story of ancient Numidians being taken to Epirus by the Romans after the massacre of the illyrians by the Romans in the illyrian revolts of 9 BC is plausible........lets see what comes up.

 

[Bardhyl]

Ok your right I took it wrong I just explain some kabyles info:

According to wiki:
Kabyle People (in algeria)
Y-Dna haplogroups, passed on exclusively through the paternal line, were found at the following frequencies in Kabylie: E1b1b1b (E-M81) (47.36%), R1*(xR1a) (15.78%) (later tested as R1b3/R-M269 (now R1b1a2)[11]), J1 (15.78%), F*(xH, I, J2,K) ( 10.52% ) and E1b1b1c (E-M123) (10.52%).[12] The North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation (including both E1b1b and J haplogroups) is largely of Semitic origin.[13]MtDNA Haplogroups, inherited only from the mother, were found at the following frequencies: H (32.23%), found throughout Europe; U* (29.03% with 17.74% U6), common to North Africa; preHV (3.23%), preV (4.84%), V (4.84%), T* (3.23%), J* (3.23%), L1 (3.23%), L3e (4.84%), X (3.23%), M1 (3.23%), N (1.61%) and R (3.23%).

kabyle language:
Kabyle is a Northern Berber language part of the Afro-Asiatic family.


The population is expected to be 5-7 millions

 

[Garrick]

I mean you posted the picture explain it yourself... You are just mad you are a slav, and thats why you always are trying to find ways to de-europanize albanians...somewhere in the world searchin similarities...your just mad at your race and throw it at ours...first of all, find the language of that population...etc. Etc. They are in algeria right, so they should be E HG but 100% not e-v13, because that was created in europe after coming from africa a long time ago like at least 3000 to 6500 years before slavs came. Because e-v13 is expected to be in europe since at least 6000bc

But you can't ignore that there are people in North Africa and Middle East who have similar clothing and habits as Albanians.

For example Druzes in the Middle East (they have significant E-V13):

Albanians

 

[Bardhyl]

Yes and greece, serbia and. Macedonia also has e-v13, and similarities like protecting your head from heat and cold? And albanians also have j2, i2.

 

[FBS]

As per Ike's post no.163
I like and respect Berber people very much, they are amazing and unique but:
These caps are nowhere near to the Albanian one, same goes for the rest of the costumes. Original Albanian caps symbolize half egg (creation myth), while the female clothing (those that are not influenced by turks)has a lot of insignia symbolizing sun (swastika) and the eagle and usually has only black,white and red colors. Plus DNA of berber is not the same with Albanian, so this cannot be taken seriously.

 

[Ike]

I mean you posted the picture explain it yourself... You are just mad you are a slav, and thats why you always are trying to find ways to de-europanize albanians...somewhere in the world searchin similarities...your just mad at your race and throw it at ours...first of all, find the language of that population...etc. Etc. They are in algeria right, so they should be E HG but 100% not e-v13, because that was created in europe after coming from africa a long time ago like at least 3000 to 6500 years before slavs came. Because e-v13 is expected to be in europe since at least 6000bc

Do you now want to say that Albanians have exclusive rights to E-V13?! How do you know that I'm not E-V13? There is more E-V13 people in Europe that are not Albanians, than the ones that are.

It is not somewhere in the world but in very north of Africa, in Kabylia. It is near one very possible entry point of E-V13 to Europe.
It's not any similarities, costumes are exactly the same color as Albanian flag, and cap is the very same concept.

E-V13 created in Europe? OK, but whom from? It must have been their ancestor Hgs like M78 or V68, they couldn't have fallen from the sky.


It seems here like Albanians are more dedicated to prove that they are not African, than to prove they are indeed the biological and linguistic descendants of one of the oldest cultures in Europe. If would be marvelous to find out that they are the only one among E-V13 people which maintained some of the customs and language of their origin place, from which they could have come like 10 kya. Instead, they are just turning their head around, and even act like being insulted, just for a notion of possible African heritage. Well that's kinda racists.

As per Ike's post no.163
I like and respect Berber people very much, they are amazing and unique but:
These caps are nowhere near to the Albanian one, same goes for the rest of the costumes. Original Albanian caps symbolize half egg (creation myth), while the female clothing (those that are not influenced by turks)has a lot of insignia symbolizing sun (swastika) and the eagle and usually has only black,white and red colors. Plus DNA of berber is not the same with Albanian, so this cannot be taken seriously.

Nowhere near? OK, find me a more similar one, anywhere in the world?
DNA not the same? It's same haplogroup E. When you have German tribes of different haplogroups (I1 and R1b for example) being of same cultural background and language, it is even more plausible to assume the same for two peoples belonging to the exactly same haplogroup E.

 

[Bardhyl]

Ike i already said post #170 that there are others with e-v13 and very numerous in balkans, and also look at my post #168 i already said I took it wrong.
Its also normal to misunderstand. Its a self defence system, because you surely would be able to remember the times of comparing Albanians with caucasus Albania, which came seemingly in the year 1500 to europe balkan.
it seems like your post is for the sake of science and not propaganda, and i fully respect that.

greetings

bardhyl

 

[FBS]

Do you now want to say that Albanians have exclusive rights to E-V13?! How do you know that I'm not E-V13? There is more E-V13 people in Europe that are not Albanians, than the ones that are.

It is not somewhere in the world but in very north of Africa, in Kabylia. It is near one very possible entry point of E-V13 to Europe.
It's not any similarities, costumes are exactly the same color as Albanian flag, and cap is the very same concept.

E-V13 created in Europe? OK, but whom from? It must have been their ancestor Hgs like M78 or V68, they couldn't have fallen from the sky.


It seems here like Albanians are more dedicated to prove that they are not African, than to prove they are indeed the biological and linguistic descendants of one of the oldest cultures in Europe. If would be marvelous to find out that they are the only one among E-V13 people which maintained some of the customs and language of their origin place, from which they could have come like 10 kya. Instead, they are just turning their head around, and even act like being insulted, just for a notion of possible African heritage. Well that's kinda racists.


Nowhere near? OK, find me a more similar one, anywhere in the world?
DNA not the same? It's same haplogroup E. When you have German tribes of different haplogroups (I1 and R1b for example) being of same cultural background and language, it is even more plausible to assume the same for two peoples belonging to the exactly same haplogroup E.

• Y-Dna haplogroups, passed on exclusively through the paternal line, were found at the following frequencies in Kabylie: E1b1b1b (E-M81) (47.36%), R1*(xR1a) (15.78%) (later tested as R1b3/R-M269 (now R1b1a2)^[11]), J1 (15.78%), F*(xH, I, J2,K) ( 10.52% ) andE1b1b1c (E-M123) (10.52%).^[12] The North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation (including both E1b1b and J haplogroups) is largely of Semitic origin.^[13]

Albanian DNA (Kosovo):

N	E-M78*	E-V13	E-M81	E-M123	J2	I	R1b	R1a	P
114	1.75%	43.85%	0.90%	0.90%	16.70%	7.96%	21.10%	4.42%	1.77%

See the difference???

 

[FBS]

Serb DNA

Y-chromosomal haplogroups identified among the Serbs from Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina are the following: I2a-P37.2 (with frequencies of 29.20 and 30.90%, respectively), E1b1b1a2-V13 (20.35 and 19.80%), R1a1-M17 (15.93 and 13.60%), R1b1b2-M269 (10.62 and 6.20%), K*-M9 (7.08 and 7.40%), J2b-M102 (4.40 and 6.20%), I1-M253 (5.31 and 2.5%), F*-M89 (4.9%, only in B-H), J2a1b1-M92 (2.70%, only in Serbia), and several other uncommon haplogroups with lesser frequencies.^[1][2][3]
Does this mean that Serbs have also Kabylie heritage - using Ikes Logic.

 

[Sile]

Serb DNA

Y-chromosomal haplogroups identified among the Serbs from Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina are the following: I2a-P37.2 (with frequencies of 29.20 and 30.90%, respectively), E1b1b1a2-V13 (20.35 and 19.80%), R1a1-M17 (15.93 and 13.60%), R1b1b2-M269 (10.62 and 6.20%), K*-M9 (7.08 and 7.40%), J2b-M102 (4.40 and 6.20%), I1-M253 (5.31 and 2.5%), F*-M89 (4.9%, only in B-H), J2a1b1-M92 (2.70%, only in Serbia), and several other uncommon haplogroups with lesser frequencies.^[1][2][3]
Does this mean that Serbs have also Kabylie heritage - using Ikes Logic.

Serbs are a mix of ancient non slav Thracian people from the triballi tribe and a slav tribe from slovakia ............slav historians have always failed to name slav tribes.

 

[Garrick]

Serb DNA

Y-chromosomal haplogroups identified among the Serbs from Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina are the following: I2a-P37.2 (with frequencies of 29.20 and 30.90%, respectively), E1b1b1a2-V13 (20.35 and 19.80%), R1a1-M17 (15.93 and 13.60%), R1b1b2-M269 (10.62 and 6.20%), K*-M9 (7.08 and 7.40%), J2b-M102 (4.40 and 6.20%), I1-M253 (5.31 and 2.5%), F*-M89 (4.9%, only in B-H), J2a1b1-M92 (2.70%, only in Serbia), and several other uncommon haplogroups with lesser frequencies.^[1][2][3]
Does this mean that Serbs have also Kabylie heritage - using Ikes Logic.

There are more scientific studies in Serbia and Eupedia gives the exact percentages because takes all relevant studies:
I 42
(I1 8.5, I2a 33, I2b 0.5)
R 24
(R1a 16, R1b 8)
G 2
J 8.5
(J2 8, J1 0.5)
E 18
(E1b1b 18)
T 1
Q 1.5
N 2

 

[Garrick]

Yes and greece, serbia and. Macedonia also has e-v13, and similarities like protecting your head from heat and cold? And albanians also have j2, i2.

Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, Bosniacs... all have significant E-V13 (of course less than Geg Albanians). But these people don't have clothing and habits as Middle East/North African populations. We can see similarity in Albanian clothing/habits as Middle East/North African populations (and some Caucasus too).

 

[Ike]

Ike i already said post #170 that there are others with e-v13 and very numerous in balkans, and also look at my post #168 i already said I took it wrong.
Its also normal to misunderstand. Its a self defence system, because you surely would be able to remember the times of comparing Albanians with caucasus Albania, which came seemingly in the year 1500 to europe balkan.
it seems like your post is for the sake of science and not propaganda, and i fully respect that.

greetings

bardhyl

:beer1: It would be great if this DNA mess resolves during our lifetime. So many new and interesting things to hear, ans so much history to rewrite

• Y-Dna haplogroups, passed on exclusively through the paternal line, were found at the following frequencies in Kabylie: E1b1b1b (E-M81) (47.36%), R1*(xR1a) (15.78%) (later tested as R1b3/R-M269 (now R1b1a2)^[11]), J1 (15.78%), F*(xH, I, J2,K) ( 10.52% ) andE1b1b1c (E-M123) (10.52%).^[12] The North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation (including both E1b1b and J haplogroups) is largely of Semitic origin.^[13]

Albanian DNA (Kosovo):

N	E-M78*	E-V13	E-M81	E-M123	J2	I	R1b	R1a	P
114	1.75%	43.85%	0.90%	0.90%	16.70%	7.96%	21.10%	4.42%	1.77%

See the difference???

Yes, I see the difference today, as there is a difference between Polish and Indian R1a. But as there is a split-off point for R1a like 5000 years ago, there must have been a split-off point for M-78 lineages maybe even up to 10-15 kya. What I don't understand is why are you so eager to prove that Hg E was primitive and unarticulated at that time, while I'm the one proposing (low probability and insane) theory that M-78 had developed and rich proto culture and language ~8 kya, which remnants can be still seen in todays Albania, and only there.

As I see Albanian E-V13 and Kabyle M-81 merge back in M-35. It's a very long shot.

One could also fit more theories, because both Abanians and Kabyle have relationship through other halpogroups present in both peoples. There is a northern relationship through R1, and Eastern relationship thorough J1. It is possible that one of the traits was shared to both peoples by Hg E, and the other by Hg R.... etc...
It is also possible, that cultural similarities are coincidental. For linguistic similarities, I don't know if there are any, that would be a job for someone fluent in both languages.

 

[FBS]

:beer1: It would be great if this DNA mess resolves during our lifetime. So many new and interesting things to hear, ans so much history to rewrite

Yes, I see the difference today, as there is a difference between Polish and Indian R1a. But as there is a split-off point for R1a like 5000 years ago, there must have been a split-off point for M-78 lineages maybe even up to 10-15 kya. What I don't understand is why are you so eager to prove that Hg E was primitive and unarticulated at that time, while I'm the one proposing (low probability and insane) theory that M-78 had developed and rich proto culture and language ~8 kya, which remnants can be still seen in todays Albania, and only there.

As I see Albanian E-V13 and Kabyle M-81 merge back in M-35. It's a very long shot.

One could also fit more theories, because both Abanians and Kabyle have relationship through other halpogroups present in both peoples. There is a northern relationship through R1, and Eastern relationship thorough J1. It is possible that one of the traits was shared to both peoples by Hg E, and the other by Hg R.... etc...
It is also possible, that cultural similarities are coincidental. For linguistic similarities, I don't know if there are any, that would be a job for someone fluent in both languages.

There is no J1 in Kosovo Albanians, it is J2b2, an if there is any J1 in other Albanians it is negligible, so please do not go wild guessing and create a theory based on a photo. Plus you know nothing about Albanian costumes, culture or language.