Illyrian-Albanian Continuity

[Sile]

The Bronze age IE invasions started no earlier than 3500 BC, with the Illyrians amalgamating with the native Pelasgians around 3000-2000 BC.

the "illyrians" did not amalgamate with the Pelasgians before 500BC, unless the pelasgians where in modern hungarian lands. So you are nearly 2000 years in error

 

[MOESAN]

just concerning haplogroups, I think Kosovars underwent a genetic drift based on a firstable not too large population of Gheg origin coming or infiltrating northwards at some time of History (the Albaneses could enlighten me on this point I 'm not aware of) - The original correct % for Y-E1b-V13 would have been roughly the same as the Ghegs one, I suppose (25-30%?) -

 

[FBS]

There were movements (exodus) from Ottomans especially Kelmendi clan (sometimes refred as Klimenti), the clan that I belong to, to Serbia-Vojvodina. Those that were catholics became Croatians and the Orthodox must have become Serbs. My predecessors were orthodox, Kelmend, eventhough for some this is unbelivable. Here is the link that mentions shortly the Kelmendi in Vojvodina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrtkovci. They could have added the EV13 among todays Serb.

 

[Eldritch]

just concerning haplogroups, I think Kosovars underwent a genetic drift based on a firstable not too large population of Gheg origin coming or infiltrating northwards at some time of History (the Albaneses could enlighten me on this point I 'm not aware of) - The original correct % for Y-E1b-V13 would have been roughly the same as the Ghegs one, I suppose (25-30%?) -

I think it's a typical phenomenon of balkan mountain areas, there was also an I2a1b founder effect in today Bosnia&Herzegovina.

 

[Garrick]

Maybe Kosovars are 45% E-V13, but not all Geg Albanians, because Geg is everybody above Tirana, and all studies in Tirana show E-v13 in the 20-s percentage; Tirana is about 50% geg, 50% tosk. Even Peloponesian Greeks have more E-v13 than people in Tirana. So 45% would be Tropoja and up till you reach Serbia. That's why Serbia has ~20% E-v13 too, because you have incorporated part of this northern Albanian population.
Just by looking at the distribution of E-v13, one can tell that another population has inserted itself in the middle of this old Balkanic hg in the area of today's Albania, that's the people that brought the Illyrian IE language from North-West Europe.

Tirana is big mix, Geg, Tosk, descedents of Greeks, Italians, Serbs, Armenians, Turks, Circassians, Kurds etc.

North of Albania and Kosovo (47,5% according to Eupedia) are better example, and it is of mainland of Geg population, as northwest of Upper Macedonia.

 

[Garrick]

So 45% would be Tropoja and up till you reach Serbia. That's why Serbia has ~20% E-v13 too, because you have incorporated part of this northern Albanian population.

There were movements (exodus) from Ottomans especially Kelmendi clan (sometimes refred as Klimenti), the clan that I belong to, to Serbia-Vojvodina. Those that were catholics became Croatians and the Orthodox must have become Serbs. My predecessors were orthodox, Kelmend, eventhough for some this is unbelivable. Here is the link that mentions shortly the Kelmendi in Vojvodina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrtkovci. They could have added the EV13 among todays Serb.

Croats have about 10% E1b1b1a2, Bosniacs something more. Macedonians and Bulgarians have are the most. Even the Slovaks have 6,5%. All Slavic nations have in a lesser degree. And some western Europeans. In Southern Europe Italians mostly (not including the Greeks).

But you are right, Serbs should have similar Bosniacs and Croats. This is due to centuries interference between Dinaric/Slavic and Hamitic population. I already said that some Illyrian tribes were mix of carriers of I2a/R1a and E1b1b1a2.

Serbs have more than Bosniacs and Croats (less than Macedonians) and there should be a reason for that. Ok, it can be mix with Greeks, Cinars, Romanians etc, but only partially.

And it can be because Montenegrian tribes inhabited Serbia. One smaller part of Montenerins have high concentration of E1b1b1a2 (Montenegrins have E1b1b1a2 similar as Tosk Albanians). But let's not get into speculations.

 

[kamani]

Tirana is big mix, Geg, Tosk, descedents of Greeks, Italians, Serbs, Armenians, Turks, Circassians, Kurds etc.

North of Albania and Kosovo (47,5% according to Eupedia) are better example, and it is of mainland of Geg population, as northwest of Upper Macedonia.

Tirana is not the typical mixed capital thou, Albanians are the least mixed population in the Europe according to published papers already discussed in this forum. About 20-30% of the population of Tirana now is from Tropoja region, which is one of the most unreachable and unmixed mountain areas of the North. They came in the recent 20 years with the fall of Communism. Somehow the percentage of E-v13 in Tirana is still 20-30%. So the Geg "core" lands that you're talking about are probably currently out of the Albanian borders. So you're saying in a round-about way that Albania has been a bigger nation than its current borders .

 

[Garrick]

Tirana is not the typical mixed capital thou, Albanians are the least mixed population in the Europe according to published papers already discussed in this forum. About 20-30% of the population of Tirana now is from Tropoja region, which is one of the most unreachable and unmixed mountain areas of the North. They came in the recent 20 years with the fall of Communism. Somehow the percentage of E-v13 in Tirana is still 20-30%. So the Geg "core" lands that you're talking about are probably currently out of the Albanian borders. So you're saying in a round-about way that Albania has been a bigger nation than its current borders .

It is newer time. Tirana founded from Turks (Ottomans). Before that there was a Byzantine town Theranda but it is disappeared.

Turks brought many nations to the Tirana from the Empire. And I forgot Vlach and Cincars who were once numerous residents and now they assimilated.

Because it was a big mix there is in Tirana today less E1b1b1a2 than in the north or Albania, not to mention Kosovo where is a peak.

 

[kamani]

It is newer time. Tirana founded from Turks (Ottomans). Before that there was a Byzantine town Theranda but it is disappeared.

Turks brought many nations to the Tirana from the Empire. And I forgot Vlach and Cincars who were once numerous residents and now they assimilated.

Because it was a big mix there is in Tirana today less E1b1b1a2 than in the north or Albania, not to mention Kosovo where is a peak.

You're right that Tirana goes back to antiquity as a city, in fact they have found castle walls from Roman times near the city center. However it is also a new city, in the sense that the vast majority of its population has come during or after Communism from all over Albania.

 

[FBS]

It is newer time. Tirana founded from Turks (Ottomans). Before that there was a Byzantine town Theranda but it is disappeared.

Quote from wikipedia: Theranda was an old Roman settlement in what is now Prizren.[1]
The town is mentioned by Ptolemy in the 2nd century AD in his Geography, whereas in the 5th century AD. it is mentioned with the name of Petrizên by Procopius of Caesarea in De aedificiis (Book IV, Chapter 4).
Sometimes the town is mentioned even in relation to the Justiniana Prima.[citation needed]
The town Suva Reka, in Kosovo, is referred to as Theranda by Kosovar Albanians, based after the Roman settlement. End of quote.

Tirana name must have sprung from the greek Tyrins, that means "dairy" since it has started as a trading point which is typical for all old - Albanian centers. Or the other theory which seems much more plausible is from Albanian T'rana which means the descending point. That is how Peja, Prizren and Gjakova were created, typical Illyrian legacy. Fighters/highlanders who could manage the plains only from the heights and could sell (exchange) their products for other products in these trading centers.

 

[Marko94]

You're right that Tirana goes back to antiquity as a city, in fact they have found castle walls from Roman times near the city center. However it is also a new city, in the sense that the vast majority of its population has come during or after Communism from all over Albania.

No, it was when Italy conquered Albania.
Thanks to the fascists were able to transform Tirana in a city.

 

[kamani]

No, it was when Italy conquered Albania.
Thanks to the fascists were able to transform Tirana in a city.

There is some truth in that. Between 1939-42, they build the main promenade and more than half of the government buildings. They had to bring their own workers too, because the local villagers around Tirana were known for being non-cooperative.

 

[Marko94]

There is some truth in that. Between 1939-42, they build the main promenade and more than half of the government buildings. They had to bring their own workers too, because the local villagers around Tirana were known for being non-cooperative.

I don't know about workers, but I know that the fascists immediately after the conquest of Albania, decided to turn in a big city Tirana(of course means of Albania).But a very interesting thing is that, in time of the Italian fascism was taught in Albanian schools and learning Italian was very fast.
The Italian was taught in Albania without any problems, this is dated by the vast majority of the Latin words in the Albanian language that has helped the albanians to learn Italian language without any problems.

 

[Garrick]

Whole this discussion just confirms my words. Tirana was founded from Turks. They brought many nations from the Ottoman Empire (Turks, Greeks, Serbs, Armenians, Circassians, etc…) and from south Vlaches and Cincars. Also after collapse of Ottoman Empire it was some Italians who settled Tirana. Practically modern Tirana became mass inhabited by Albanians after World War Two. It is reason why in today’s Tirana is less E1b1b1a2 than in the north of Albania.

 

[kamani]

The Italian was taught in Albania without any problems, this is dated by the vast majority of the Latin words in the Albanian language that has helped the albanians to learn Italian language without any problems.

Correct, most people in Tirana learn perfect Italian in about 1-2 years just from watching Italian television. Even my 80+ year old grandfather learned Italian from the television, good luck doing that with German...

 

[Marko94]

Whole this discussion just confirms my words. Tirana was founded from Turks. They brought many nations from the Ottoman Empire (Turks, Greeks, Serbs, Armenians, Circassians, etc…) and from south Vlaches and Cincars. Also after collapse of Ottoman Empire it was some Italians who settled Tirana. Practically modern Tirana became mass inhabited by Albanians after World War Two. It is reason why in today’s Tirana is less E1b1b1a2 than in the north of Albania.

Don't is correct.
Tirana was transformed in Bazar by turk.
In time of fascism the village was (again XD) transformed in city by fascist.
In this video is confirmed.

 

[Marko94]

Correct, most people in Tirana learn perfect Italian in about 1-2 years just from watching Italian television. Even my 80+ year old grandfather learned Italian from the television, good luck doing that with German...

In Italy it is very well known.
According to research, the 86% of the Albanians (with an age from 11 years up to 25) have mastered the language Italian just with tv.

 

[Bardhyl]

Why did you create this thread?
Illyrian-Albanian continuity?
This is a statement and not a question, thats why I ask you your goal with this thread, because there is no such linguistic, nation or people continuity.
Albania and Albanians are wrong identity. Albanians call themself Shqiptar and their country Shqiperia.
All connections with the name Alba in ancient sources is irrelevant and not connected with these people or their history.

Nicely observed. Germans call themselves also Deutsche..und Deutschland..so that is a wrong identity of german too? So they are not Germans according to you?

dont always try to push down Albanians.

 

[mihaitzateo]

I do not think that Thraco-Dacians came to Balkans at around 100 AD,for the simple reason there are Dacian kings attested before this date.
So because they were there,they have been invaded,the part South of Danube,before 0 AD.
For example,Burebista - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burebista attested between 82BC to 44BC.
Ilyrians are mentioned there,as livings South of Danube together with Thracians,when Burebista went on an expedition against Celts that were spread South of Danube,between Ilyrians and Thracians.
Which shows that Thracians were there also,not only Ilyrians,how some Albanians here want to distort the historic truth.
EDIT
Oh,forgot one thing,Romanian language have borrowings from Old Greek,which Albanian do not have.
If Albanians would have been there and they are from Ilyrians,how come they do not have borrowings from Ancient/Old Greek language?

 

[FBS]

I do not think that Thraco-Dacians came to Balkans at around 100 AD,for the simple reason there are Dacian kings attested before this date.
So because they were there,they have been invaded,the part South of Danube,before 0 AD.
For example,Burebista - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burebista attested between 82BC to 44BC.
Ilyrians are mentioned there,as livings South of Danube together with Thracians,when Burebista went on an expedition against Celts that were spread South of Danube,between Ilyrians and Thracians.
Which shows that Thracians were there also,not only Ilyrians,how some Albanians here want to distort the historic truth.
EDIT
Oh,forgot one thing,Romanian language have borrowings from Old Greek,which Albanian do not have.
If Albanians would have been there and they are from Ilyrians,how come they do not have borrowings from Ancient/Old Greek language?

Out of curiosity, what does Burebista mean in Romanian?