Politics Should Crimea be an independent country? (Russian-Ukrainian conflict)

[Coolboygcp]

That was a typo. I mean "Baltic", not "Balkans", which should have been obvious from the context of what I said.

What do you have your period or something? You are acting like an *******, first to Angela (in the French people thread), and now to me. Why are you so nasty to everyone?

You do not have to act like a douché in order to correct your typo. You could have just said "Oops, I meant to say The Baltics, not The Balkans.", instead of the snarky comment you said.

"which should have been obvious from the context of what I said"

This is like saying, "Algeria is a superpower", and then saying "I meant America, which should have been obvious from the context of what I said."

It is not my job to attempt to discern what you meant, it would have been much easier if you put the right place. They are two very distinct, very far from each other, totally different places.

If you meant the Baltics, Russia is not a Baltic nation. Russia is not usually considered a Baltic nation. Russia does have a very small amount of land on The Baltic Sea (Kaliningrad Oblast). But, it is quite rare and uncommon to describe this as being a Baltic nation, or being in The Baltics. That Oblast is completely surrounded by the EU all sides (except a small amount of sea belonging to Russia). I would not call it a flank, but it is more of a small exclave like Spain's Ceuta and Melilla; than a flank like America's Florida, or Egypt's Sinai Peninsula.

Why do you keep portraying Russia as a strong nation, a nation with immense power and might. Sure it has a bit of that, but not as much as you are portraying. Russia used to be a very strong nation when it was part of The Soviet Union, now it has lost the majority of it's strength, power, and might. Russia is only a shell of what The Soviet Union was.

 

[Coolboygcp]

Crimea now it is autonomous and I think in the future should be independent.
And Romania,Ukraine,Turkey,Bulgaria,Crimea,Georgia should vote that no military ships of either NATO or Russia should be allowed in Black Sea.
If NATO and Russia want to fight,they can fight,but not in Black Sea.
I do not really care about "geo strategic" interests of US and other NATO large powers or Russia in Black Sea.UK,US,France,Russia,US have no rights to Black Sea.
They should get their military ships out of there and stop putting people to fight between them.
Is true that Russia have some part of Black Sea side,but Black Sea should be used only for tourism,fishing etc and not for fighting,which will lead to massive pollution in the area and would disturb the lives of most people here,which are living peacefully.
The high powers leaders are pure idiots with no respect for nature and life of ordinary people.
Bulgarians,Romanians,Ukrainians,Russians,Tatars,Goths,Turks,Greeks and other nations were living here very peacefully.Suddenly,Ukrainians started to fight.
Why?
Russia on one side and US and EU agitators on the other side having interests in the region,enraged these people between them,they made bloodshed between brothers,carrying only about their "geo strategic interests" . Both US/NATO and Russia want Crimea under their dark wings.Why?
To deploy military ships in the region (For US/NATO)/keep their existing war ships in the region (Russia).
Idiots.
I am pretty sure average citizen of Russia that lives near Black Sea side do not want either Russia war ships deployed in the region.

I agree with some of this, and disagree with some of this. However, at this time, NATO does have an interest in The Black Sea. There are many Black Sea countries that are members of NATO. These include:

Bulgaria
Romania
Turkey

It is likely that Georgia will join in the future, and possibly Ukraine as well.

Thus, NATO does technically have an interest in The Black Sea. Since 3 of it's members are on The Black Sea, it is logical for NATO to have bases, facilities, different boats, submarines, and more on and in The Black Sea. Below is a list of American military bases in Black Sea countries:

Turkey~

Incirlik Air Base- United States Air Force


Bulgaria~

Aitos Logistics Center- United States Army
Novo Selo Range- United States Army

Bezmer Air Base- United States Air Force
Graf Ignatievo Air Base- United States Air Force


The bases listed are in NATO and Black Sea countries. Since Bulgaria, Turkey, and Romania are both NATO and Black Sea Nations (and Bulgaria and Romania are EU member as well), NATO has an interest in The Black Sea. This would not only include the three Black Sea NATO nations, but every NATO member including the UK, the US, and France (nations you said had no business in The Black Sea). So, the UK, the US, and France has interests in The Black Sea. I agree with you that The Black Sea should be a peaceful place, and should not have any war. However, war has come to The Black Sea, and peace has been taken away in The Black Sea region.

The EU also has an interest in The Black Sea. Many EU nations are on The Black Sea, or near it. A large art of The Black Sea is The EU's territory.

I also disagree with what you said about the Russian people's point of view regarding this situation. As recent polls have shown, most Russians support Putin, support the invasion and retaking of Crimea, and also support a return to "Great Empire/Soviet Union".

It has been pretty peaceful in The Black Sea region for many years. However, it is not the Ukrainians that started this crisis but the Russians. They pressured Yanukovych into not signing the EU Association Agreement, and instead joining Russia's Customs Union and The Eurasian Union. The Ukrainian people did not agree with this decision at all, and rightly, they protested and eventually overthrew Yanukovych. The Ukrainian people wanted freedom, and now they have it. However, many of The Crimeans and Ukrainians from the south and east of Ukraine did not want this, and they want to join with Russia. (Idiotically).

However, I do agree with you that, The Black Sea should only be used for tourism, fishing, boating, etc. And that there shouldn't be any military bases there. I hope that one day, this is attained.

 

[Coolboygcp]

Two Russia Today anchors have resigned on air, denouncing it's biased positions, Putin, and Russia itself. Below is an article from The Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/06/russia-today-anchor-liz-wahl-resigns-on-air-ukraine

An American anchor for the Kremlin-funded news channel RT has quit on air and accused the network of "whitewashing" Moscow's military intervention in Crimea.

Liz Wahl, a Washington-based correspondent for RT-America, part of the network formerly known as Russia Today, told viewers on Wednesday she was resigning because of its coverage of President Vladimir Putin's actions in the Ukrainian region.

Veerng off script, Wahl said: "I cannot be part of a network funded by the Russian government that whitewashes the actions of Putin. I'm proud to be an American and believe in disseminating the truth, and that is why, after this newscast, I'm resigning."

As the daughter of a military veteran and the wife of a military base physician the network's coverage of a potentially explosive crisis presented ethical and moral dilemmas, she said.

Wahl cited another RT host, Abby Martin, who made headlines on Tuesday when she declared: "Russian intervention in the Crimea is wrong." In a tweet she later called Martin "my girl" and commended her for going "spectacularly off-message".

Wahl, a self-described "Filipina-Hungarian-American", also alluded to Moscow's bloody intervention in Hungary in 1956. "Just spoke to grandparents who came to US as refugees escaping Soviets during Hungarian revolution. Amazing to hear amid new Cold War fears," she tweeted.

RT, a predominantly English-language network aimed at a global audience, broadcasts news, documentaries and talk shows with a distinctly pro-Russian slant. RT-America provides several hours of US-produced content a day, including a show hosted by former CNN star Larry King.

Unlike other international broadcasters who have reported the presence of Russian troops in Crimea the station has echoed the Kremlin line about the troops being local self-defence forces.

In a statement, RT denounced Wahl's actions as a "self-promotional" stunt. It drew a distinciton between her role as a newscaster and Martin's position as an opinion host.

"When a journalist disagrees with the editorial position of his or her organization, the usual course of action is to address those grievances with the editor, and, if they cannot be resolved, to quit like a professional. But when someone makes a big public show of a personal decision, it is nothing more than a self-promotional stunt," it said.

"It actually makes me feel sick that I worked there," Wahl told the Daily Beast.

She had planned the move for some time, she said. "When I came on board from the beginning I knew what I was getting into, but I think I was more cautious and tried to stay as objective as I could."

 

[Coolboygcp]

Apparently, Americans have no sense of irony or self-awareness.

American Secretary of State John Kerry, in talking about events in Crimea, said:

"It is not appropriate to invade a country, and at the end of a barrel of a gun dictate what you are trying to achieve. That is not 21st-century, G-8, major nation behaviour."

:43:

I am shocked that you have said this. First you promote dated stereotypes about The French. And now you are saying something that is highly oppensive, stereotypical, discriminatory, and slanderous about over 300,000,000 people. If I only read the things that you write, I could say that Canadians are all uninformed douchébag assholes that are uninformed, that commonly employ racial and ethnic stereotypes, frequently exaggerate, and do not consider facts.

However I know that the vast, vast majority of Canadians are not like you. I have never met, talked to, seen, or heard of a Canadian like yourself. I have many friends who are Canadians, relatives who are Canadians, and I have been to Canada, which I think is a very nice country. All of the Canadians I know and have met are very nice, and kind people. I am an European American (emphasis on the European) who has a sense of irony and self-awareness. I am sure that there are people of every nationality and ethnicity who do not have a sense of irony and/or self-awareness. Most Americans do have a sense of irony and self-awareness, though there are some that I am sure that do not have those traits; I am sure that there are some Canadians who have this problem as well.

Look at all of the great comedians from the US. The vast majority of them employ irony. Larry David, Jerry Seinfeld, Bill Maher, George Lopez, John Leguizamo, and many more employ irony and self-awareness.

I am not disagreeing with you that Secretary Kerry's statement may be somewhat hypocritical, however, it is another thing entirely to say that an entire group of 300,000,000 people do not have a sense of irony or self-awareness. Also, all Americans are not responsible for the actions of the American government. If I was, I would close all of the foreign, and the vast majority of the domestic military bases, allow freedom of movement, join The EU, convert to The Metric System, and create a socialised Universal Healthcare system.

From the tone of many of your posts, it seems that you are sometimes uninformed, and frequently employ racial and ethnic stereotypes. It is degrading and offensive to the people who these stereotypes concern, and your actions may influence people's views and thoughts of both Canada and Canadians in general.

 

[Coolboygcp]

How good that your opinion of me or my peoples future has no weight "Coolboy". I said, "Evil EU, Evil West"? Hell I didn't even used the designation "Evil" in connection to Turkey in that post.

So you are hallucinating once again. I was merely pointing out the geopolitical facts. Not my problem if you have no clue of History or Geopolitics.

I think Goga knows best if he was attacked or not. He doesn't need a rabble-rouser to think for him.

My opinion does have weight, because my opinion is based upon facts.

I never said that you said "Evil EU, Evil West", but you completely implied it. You didn't call Turkey evil in that post, however you have implied that as well, and you have gone into crazy conspiracy theories regarding Turkey, The EU, and The West.

I have never hallucinated in my life. Usually the cause of that is drugs, and I would probably respect you more if you were taking drugs that made you say the unfactual, insane, off the wall comments you have said. For example, the whole Gülen thing; how could one man do all of these things? The answer is, he can't! He is a scapegoat, a man whom the Turkish public and government say orchestrates every scandal, does every bad thing in Turkey, and whose fault it is for everything from Gezi Square, to the wiretaps, to the widespread corruption in Turkey, to the Kurds, and more.

And the comment "Turkey will never get in The EU." Well, it doesn't seem that The EU or Turkey thinks so; they are still in negotiation for Turkish EU membership, and Turkey has been changing their regulations, laws, and more in order to be compatible with European standard and regulations. Sure, the negotiations may be moving at a slow pace, but I believe that in time; Turkey will join Europe.

In addition, I am not a rabble-rouser, but I know when someone is being attacked, and Goga was being attacked; as you have done to practically everyone on this forum.

 

[Ike]

Why do you keep portraying Russia as a strong nation, a nation with immense power and might. Sure it has a bit of that, but not as much as you are portraying. Russia used to be a very strong nation when it was part of The Soviet Union, now it has lost the majority of it's strength, power, and might. Russia is only a shell of what The Soviet Union was.

That is what Americans think. That is why they are advancing towards Russia. And that is why we're all in problem.

 

[ElHorsto]

That is why they are advancing towards Russia. And that is why we're all in problem.

In particular the Russians have a differing opinion about the 2+4 treaty. I don't know who is right but I think this is the reason for this conflict and I wonder why no politician adresses it in the negotiations and media.

 

[mihaitzateo]

I agree with some of this, and disagree with some of this. However, at this time, NATO does have an interest in The Black Sea. There are many Black Sea countries that are members of NATO. These include:

Bulgaria
Romania
Turkey

It is likely that Georgia will join in the future, and possibly Ukraine as well.

Thus, NATO does technically have an interest in The Black Sea. Since 3 of it's members are on The Black Sea, it is logical for NATO to have bases, facilities, different boats, submarines, and more on and in The Black Sea. Below is a list of American military bases in Black Sea countries:

Turkey~

Incirlik Air Base- United States Air Force


Bulgaria~

Aitos Logistics Center- United States Army
Novo Selo Range- United States Army

Bezmer Air Base- United States Air Force
Graf Ignatievo Air Base- United States Air Force


The bases listed are in NATO and Black Sea countries. Since Bulgaria, Turkey, and Romania are both NATO and Black Sea Nations (and Bulgaria and Romania are EU member as well), NATO has an interest in The Black Sea. This would not only include the three Black Sea NATO nations, but every NATO member including the UK, the US, and France (nations you said had no business in The Black Sea). So, the UK, the US, and France has interests in The Black Sea. I agree with you that The Black Sea should be a peaceful place, and should not have any war. However, war has come to The Black Sea, and peace has been taken away in The Black Sea region.

The EU also has an interest in The Black Sea. Many EU nations are on The Black Sea, or near it. A large art of The Black Sea is The EU's territory.

I also disagree with what you said about the Russian people's point of view regarding this situation. As recent polls have shown, most Russians support Putin, support the invasion and retaking of Crimea, and also support a return to "Great Empire/Soviet Union".

It has been pretty peaceful in The Black Sea region for many years. However, it is not the Ukrainians that started this crisis but the Russians. They pressured Yanukovych into not signing the EU Association Agreement, and instead joining Russia's Customs Union and The Eurasian Union. The Ukrainian people did not agree with this decision at all, and rightly, they protested and eventually overthrew Yanukovych. The Ukrainian people wanted freedom, and now they have it. However, many of The Crimeans and Ukrainians from the south and east of Ukraine did not want this, and they want to join with Russia. (Idiotically).

However, I do agree with you that, The Black Sea should only be used for tourism, fishing, boating, etc. And that there shouldn't be any military bases there. I hope that one day, this is attained.

I do not think average Romanian,Bulgarian or Turk likes to see US army having soldiers in Black Sea.
NATO is not only US,I would like to see soldiers only from EU states,Georgia and Turkey,here.
NATO is supposed to preserve world peace,but Nuland and others mixed in Ukraine events and their actions determined after some soldiers from Russia entering in Crimea.
Which is not something useful for world peace.Because they supported a ultra-nationalist government which declared as only official language of Ukraine,Ukrainian.
In Romania,for example,we have about 10% or so Hungarians,in areas where Hungarians are lots,Hungarian language is also official language,not only Romanian.
A very decent legislation.
Why Ukraine is allowed to have a legislation that ignore the rights of minorities ?
Besides Russians,which actually understand Ukrainian,there are Romanians/Moldovans,Hungarians,Tatars and Bulgarians,in large numbers in Ukraine.

What if some people from Russia and US are making big money from army industry,what if these people have a lot of influence on the leaders of US and Russia and these people actually wanted to make money,from this crisis?
I think mr Ron Paul is suggesting something like this,that the industry that produce military equipments from US is very involved in this.
I also found weird the implication of the members from Wall Street Journal,in these events,they asked mr Obama to send troops in Black Sea,if I am remembering this right.

 

[Aberdeen]

:43:

I am shocked that you have said this. First you promote dated stereotypes about The French. And now you are saying something that is highly oppensive, stereotypical, discriminatory, and slanderous about over 300,000,000 people. If I only read the things that you write, I could say that Canadians are all uninformed douchébag assholes that are uninformed, that commonly employ racial and ethnic stereotypes, frequently exaggerate, and do not consider facts.

However I know that the vast, vast majority of Canadians are not like you. I have never met, talked to, seen, or heard of a Canadian like yourself. I have many friends who are Canadians, relatives who are Canadians, and I have been to Canada, which I think is a very nice country. All of the Canadians I know and have met are very nice, and kind people. I am an European American (emphasis on the European) who has a sense of irony and self-awareness. I am sure that there are people of every nationality and ethnicity who do not have a sense of irony and/or self-awareness. Most Americans do have a sense of irony and self-awareness, though there are some that I am sure that do not have those traits; I am sure that there are some Canadians who have this problem as well.

Look at all of the great comedians from the US. The vast majority of them employ irony. Larry David, Jerry Seinfeld, Bill Maher, George Lopez, John Leguizamo, and many more employ irony and self-awareness.

I am not disagreeing with you that Secretary Kerry's statement may be somewhat hypocritical, however, it is another thing entirely to say that an entire group of 300,000,000 people do not have a sense of irony or self-awareness. Also, all Americans are not responsible for the actions of the American government. If I was, I would close all of the foreign, and the vast majority of the domestic military bases, allow freedom of movement, join The EU, convert to The Metric System, and create a socialised Universal Healthcare system.

From the tone of many of your posts, it seems that you are sometimes uninformed, and frequently employ racial and ethnic stereotypes. It is degrading and offensive to the people who these stereotypes concern, and your actions may influence people's views and thoughts of both Canada and Canadians in general.

If you don't like my posts, don't reply to them. But here's a clue - if a country has imperialist ambitions and over one million troops under arms, it's a danger to its neighbours, even if some of those troops are poorly trained conscripts.

 

[Ike]

In particular the Russians have a differing opinion about the 2+4 treaty. I don't know who is right but I think this is the reason for this conflict and I wonder why no politician adresses it in the negotiations and media.

Well, if Gorbachev's translators were not skilled, Americans could have pushed an article that would give them control over Siberia after 2001. That doesn't mean that Russians would let them do it.

Almost every article of every agreement can be put to a test, if there is no 300 pages following it. Even if there was a strict sentence that "NATO will not expand to the East towards USSR", Americans can say that they are not violating the agreement because USSR does not exist anymore. Next they could send their ships over Pacific and sail in from the West through Suez Canal saying they are not violating the agreement again. It's like saying to your kid "You can't go out and play" and next thing you find out he's with his friend at his house playing. Even though he is not actually "out" does that mean that he didn't disobeyed your will.


So, it's not the point in the agreement, but in common sense. We are all aware that USSR would NEVER sign an agreement if it thought it will let NATO military bases inside USSR territory. US is acting like it doesn't care for that and it's enclosing Russians from all sides. I don't know what they expected, but they've pushed too far with their war play, and now the first time they've got an adequate response - Russians moving their ground troops, and threatening to get involved, Americans are acting like "OMG, what is happening? OMG, why would you do something like that? OMG, but our troops bring democracy, and your troops are evil. Don't move them."

I really don't get for how long is US going to continue to playing dumb.

 

[LeBrok]

Yesterday I heard Governor of Crimea declaring that Crimea is Russian. Way ahead of referendum which his government approved.
Signs of fresh democracy. The idea still needs to sink into human minds in this region. So far everybody's is acting at will, I'm the leader, I'm stronger or we are stronger, I do what I want, we do what we want.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Yesterday I heard Governor of Crimea declaring that Crimea is Russian. Way ahead of referendum which his government approved.
Signs of fresh democracy. The idea still needs to sink into human minds in this region. So far everybody's is acting at will, I'm the leader, I'm stronger or we are stronger, I do what I want, we do what we want.

Well if Ukraine new government would not have canceled that law with minority languages,Russia would have not courage to send soldiers in Crimea,I think.
If Nuland would not have involved in Ukraine,so that her phone call was leaked,Russia again would have not another reason to get soldiers in Crimea.
Remember the time when Timoschenko was in lead in Ukraine,that time Ukraine was also wanted to get in EU and get in NATO,but Russia did not had any reasons to use to be able to send soldiers to Crimea.
Is clear that Russia wants Crimea and one of the reasons is to keep a part of its fleet there so they threaten Romania ,Turkey,Georgia,Bulgaria which are NATO members.
Some people from Russia and US did not got past the Cold War mentality.

 

[Anton Bear's den]

Yesterday I heard Governor of Crimea declaring that Crimea is Russian. Way ahead of referendum which his government approved.
Signs of fresh democracy. The idea still needs to sink into human minds in this region. So far everybody's is acting at will, I'm the leader, I'm stronger or we are stronger, I do what I want, we do what we want.

Cry LeBrok cry...

75% of Crimean people want to become part of Russia, it's a fact. They do not want your decadent values, ​​nor the retarded nazis from "Polish frankenstein" Galicia and Volyn areas of western Ukraine.
There are huge unrest in Eastern Ukraine too, normal hard working people choose Russia.

People already rising Russia's flags in Kharkiv, Odessa, Donetsk, Lugansk. Finally the whole Eastern Ukraine rebelling against western marionettes in Kiev

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEIJ4pB6OSQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIfDAhS55EQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG09rmnIkvU

 

[LeBrok]

Cry LeBrok cry...

75% of Crimean people want to become part of Russia, it's a fact. They do not want your decadent values, ​​nor the retarded nazis from "Polish frankenstein" Galicia and Volyn areas of western Ukraine.
There are huge unrest in Eastern Ukraine too, normal hard working people choose Russia.

Keep alienating and ridiculing your neighbors. You'll be surrounded by only enemies soon. Enemies which you made yourself.
Thanks to people like you, Russia is dying slowly every day. You'll see riots (not only Pussy Riots) and Russian tanks in Moscow streets in few years. Mark my words.
The saddest thing will be that you and others will still think Putin is your salvation and all bad came from western agitators.

 

[LeBrok]

How Russians are going to kick Ukrainian troops from Crimean bases?

 

[LeBrok]

Just to make sure Russia wins the referendum in Crimea, the voting will be rigged.

Here is why:
There is 58% ethnic Russians, 24% Ukrainian, 12% Tatars in Crimea. Even though Russians have majority it is not by a huge margin. I'm assuming that to make it easier for Russians to win, the threshold for secession to Russia will be set at 51%, not at 2/3rds or something else. Also I'm assuming that all Tatars and Ukrainians will vote for Ukraine or Independence if there is such option. Most likely it will be only one option "should we join Russia", and all Russians will vote for Russia. Now, this 7% of comfort margin is not much comfort for Putin. It is too much risk taking not knowing how people will vote. There was no time to do extensive survey to make sure, and why bother if Putin's troops are already there.
Here is why it is risky to let people decide:
- What if 20% Russian Crimean feel as good citizens of Ukraine and vote against secession? Most were born and educated as its citizens. There are some patriotic feelings involved.
- What if Russians will be overconfident and not all go to vote, but all minorities come to vote?
I don't think Putin will risk and take a chance of a legal vote. He has to rig it to make sure Crimea is Russian. He has extensive expertise of Soviet Union voting farce, where always 99% population voted and 99% voted for communist party.

Things are already set in stone. Governor of Crimea (Russian ethnic) already said yesterday that Crimea is Russian. Means that Russian politicians are already informed about Putin's decision. The referendum is for the rest of the world, as an act of illusion.

 

[LeBrok]

if a country has imperialist ambitions and over one million troops under arms, it's a danger to its neighbours, even if some of those troops are poorly trained conscripts.

One thing to consider would be that without US Canada would have been either part of Japan Empire or part of Soviet Union. It is safe to say that without them we wouldn't be able to cherish our freedoms.

 

[Coolboygcp]

I've found a shocking poster from a coalition in the 2002 Ukraine elections, and the coalition included The Party of Regions, Yanukovych's political party. I don't know what the hell happened to their political ideology, but they have completely changed in 12 years. Here it is below:

 

[FBS]

Keep alienating and ridiculing your neighbors. You'll be surrounded by only enemies soon. Enemies which you made yourself.
Thanks to people like you, Russia is dying slowly every day. You'll see riots (not only Pussy Riots) and Russian tanks in Moscow streets in few years. Mark my words.
The saddest thing will be that you and others will still think Putin is your salvation and all bad came from western agitators.

Just like Milosevic did against his people, Belgrade witnessed tanks in its streets when they suddenly realized that Milosevic would not stop anywhere when his authority and thirst for power was questioned by anyone. It happened exactly 22 years ago
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society.php?yyyy=2013&mm=03&dd=09&nav_id=85082
Tyrants do not love anyone else not even their own people that brought them to power, there are a lot of examples throughout history.

 

[matbir]

Here is video with good summary of what is going on Crimea and Ukraine: