How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

[gyms]

The Balkan Peninsula, popularly referred to as the Balkans, is a geographical region of Southeast Europe. The region takes its name from the Balkan Mountains that stretch from the east of Bulgaria to the very east of Serbia.
The region is predominantly inhabited by Bulgarians, Croats, Bosniaks, Gorani, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Serbs, Slovenes, Romanians, Aromanians, Greeks, Albanians, Turks and other ethnic groups which present minorities in certain countries like the Romani and Ashkali.^[1]


The Gagauz people are a Turkic^[8] group living mostly in southern Moldova (Gagauzia), southwestern Ukraine (Budjak), south-eastern Romania (Dobrogea),^[9] northeastern Bulgaria, Greece, Brazil, United States and Canada. The Gagauz are Orthodox Christians. There is a related ethnic group also called Gagavuz (or Gajal) living in the European part of northwestern Turkey.

Today Gagauz people outside Moldova live mainly in the Ukrainian regions of Odesa and Zaporizhia, as well as in Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Bulgaria, Greece, Romania, Brazil, Turkmenistan, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Georgia, Turkey^[10] and the Russian region of Kabardino-Balkaria.
There are also nearly 20,000 descendants of Gagauzians living in the Balkan country of Bulgaria, as well as upwards of 3,000 living in the United States of America, Brazil and Canada.

I2a-Din=24-32%

 

[gyms]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations

Frequencies in some ethnic groups in Europe

 

[Ike]

So, please write, WHY NOT SLAVS?

Maybe those Ostrogoths that are marked on the last map already spoke Slavic language before arriving on Balkans?

 

[sparkey]

Maybe those Ostrogoths that are marked on the last map already spoke Slavic language before arriving on Balkans?

If I2a-Din is Gothic drift into the Slavic population, and it expanded after that drift occurred, wouldn't we still say that it expanded with Slavs?

One thing I don't think anybody is arguing is that I2a-Din was a majority haplogroup in the proto-Balto-Slavs from which Slavic populations originated. At some point, it had to have drifted from somewhere. It would be very interesting if that population turned out to be the Goths, although IMHO the Goths are slightly too northwestern and too temporally late to be the best candidates. Not to mention that we can follow apparently East Germanic subclades of other haplogroups, like some of the more eastern biased subclades of I1, and they don't match the spread of I2a-Din all that closely.

 

[gyms]

sparkey,how do you know that I2a-"Din" expanded with Slavs?I would like to see some scientific evidence for that.Not speculations.

 

[sparkey]

sparkey,how do you know that I2a-"Din" expanded with Slavs?I would like to see some scientific evidence for that.Not speculations.

I don't claim to know that it expanded with the Slavs, that is just my best guess. Scientific evidence for now is unfortunately limited to analysis of modern diversity and frequency. If that's not enough for you, you're out of luck for now.

 

[Sile]

If I2a-Din is Gothic drift into the Slavic population, and it expanded after that drift occurred, wouldn't we still say that it expanded with Slavs?

no, we would say it expanded with the gothic armies and it s confederates ..................we do not know how many ethnic peoples the goths absorbed into their society, but we know by historians, that the practice of annexation of tribes and peoples was common with the Goths. ie...the annexation and destruction of the sarmatians by the Goths.

who would ever say , it expanded with this or that linguistic group?

One thing I don't think anybody is arguing is that I2a-Din was a majority haplogroup in the proto-Balto-Slavs from which Slavic populations originated. At some point, it had to have drifted from somewhere. It would be very interesting if that population turned out to be the Goths, although IMHO the Goths are slightly too northwestern and too temporally late to be the best candidates. Not to mention that we can follow apparently East Germanic subclades of other haplogroups, like some of the more eastern biased subclades of I1, and they don't match the spread of I2a-Din all that closely.

There are 2 scenario's
1 - The cimmerians lived in southern Ukraine centuries before the Sycthians and sarmatians kicked them out around 700BC, these cimmerians resettled in mostly 2 places , Pannonia in Hungarian/serbian lands and Cappodacia in Anatolia.........both around the year 700BC , a year we can easily say that the I2a-Din entered the Balkans

2- The illyrians where as we know a central European people, who moved slowly south into the Balkans. Beginning in the late bronze-age and finally reaching Montenegro in around 400BC.
Does this not match the I2a-Din found in these lands by numbers and percentage now?

 

[Aberdeen]

I don't claim to know that it expanded with the Slavs, that is just my best guess. Scientific evidence for now is unfortunately limited to analysis of modern diversity and frequency. If that's not enough for you, you're out of luck for now.

I'm very skeptical of how much modern diversity and frequency tell us about what was happening in the past, unless we have historical records that indicate a relatively stable population situation for a lengthy period. I certainly wouldn't want to use modern Canadian DNA as evidence of what was happening here two or three thousand years ago. Yes, that's an extreme example, but if you look at how many population shifts appear to have happened in the Balkans over the last two or three thousand years, I think it's difficult to be sure which groups account for what genetic material in the current population. That's why I prefer info from old bones, and it's too bad there isn't much of that from the Balkans. And what little we do have, such as the two samples recently discussed on this forum, don't necessarily provide the results some might expect. Plus, with limited samples, we have no way of knowing what's representative. So I think it's difficult to draw any conclusions right now about a lot of DNA questions concerning the Balkans. I would have expected the Slavs to be more R1a, but if that's correct, Balkan Slavs aren't all that Slavic in their DNA. Which could actually be the case, IMO.

 

[motzart]

It seems that what we need to distinguish I2a Din from the Slavs, is some evidence that I2a Din was Pre-Slavic in the Balkans.

Since Croatia is one of the best hotspots of I2a Din it seems like a great place to study.

Here is a slice taken from the "History of Croatia" Wikipedia page

After the Western Roman Empire collapsed in 476, with the beginning of the Migration Period, Julius Nepos shortly ruled his diminished domain from the Diocletian palace after his 476 flight from Italy.[11] The region was then ruled by the Ostrogoths up to 535, when Justinian I added the territory to the Byzantine Empire. Later, the Byzantines formed the Theme of Dalmatia in the same territory.

The Roman period ends with Avar and Croat invasions in the 6th and 7th centuries and the destruction of almost all Roman towns. Roman survivors retreated to more favourable sites on the coast, islands and mountains.[12] The city of Ragusa was founded by such survivors from Epidaurum.[13]

-Ragusa is now known as Dubrovnik.

-Croats are the Slavic Tribe responsible for the Slavicization of Dalmatia into the modern day Slavic nation of Croatia

If I2a Din spread to Croatia with the Slavic Croats then we would expect to see a positive correlation of I2a Din in the areas where the Croats settled and a negative one for where the native Romans at the time fled to.

So we would expect to see (I2a Din) Croats on the mainland, and some other mixture of roman survivors on the islands and mountains surrounding Ragusa.

Now lets look at the figures from this study on Y DNA in Croatia and see how it fits in to this, the study taken from Maciamo's own sources.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v11/n7/full/5200992a.html#fig1

[TABLE="class: data"]
[TR]
[TH="class: last rowsep"] [/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"] Frequency [/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"] No [/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"] 95% CR [/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD] I-M170 [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.376[/TD]
[TD]41[/TD]
[TD]0.291–0.470[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.284[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]0.194–0.396[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.551[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]0.413–0.682[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.659[/TD]
[TD]60[/TD]
[TD]0.557–0.749[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD]0.537[/TD]
[TD]72[/TD]
[TD]0.453–0.620[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] G-M201 [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.009[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.002–0.050[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.061[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]0.022–0.165[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.011[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.003–0.058[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD]0.104[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]0.064–0.168[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD] F-M89 [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.018[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.006–0.064[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.020[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.005–0.106[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.011[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.003–0.058[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD]0.015[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.005–0.052[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] R1a-SRY[SUB]10831[/SUB] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.339[/TD]
[TD]37[/TD]
[TD]0.257–0.433[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.378[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]0.276–0.493[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.265[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]0.162–0.403[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.087[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]0.045–0.162[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD]0.201[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]0.142–0.0277[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD] R1b-M173 [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.156[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]0.100–0.236[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.162[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]0.096–0.263[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.061[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]0.022–0.165[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.011[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.003–0.059[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD]0.015[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.005–0.052[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] P*-92R7 [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.018[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.006–0.064[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.140[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]0.085–0.227[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD]0.060[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]0.026–0.104[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD] E-SRY[SUB]4064[/SUB] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.055[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]0.026–0.115[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.068[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]0.030–0.149[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.041[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.013–0.137[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.043[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]0.018–0.106[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD]0.037[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]0.016–0.084[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] J-12f2 [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.018[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.006–0.064[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.108[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]0.056–0.199[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.033[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]0.012–0.091[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD]0.022[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]0.008–0.064[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD] K-M9 [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.009[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.002–0.050[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: last"]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]0.015[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]0.005–0.052[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



So what do we see here?

There is a higher frequency of Haplogroup I in the samples taken from the Islands surrounding Ragusa(Dubrovnik), and a lower frequency of Haplogroup I on the Croatian mainland where the Slavic Croats settled.

Likewise we see a Higher Frequency of R1a on the Croatian mainland where the Croats settled and a lesser frequency on the islands surrounding Ragusa.

I think this is pretty compelling evidence that the high frequency Haplogroup I (I2a-Din) is Pre-Slavic in Croatia.

 

[Ike]

If I2a-Din is Gothic drift into the Slavic population, and it expanded after that drift occurred, wouldn't we still say that it expanded with Slavs?.

It's just a matter of agreement. We can also say like that.

My "fear" is that it may be complicated than that. Small Gothic tribe comes down to Ukraine where they destroy Sarmatian kingdom. There they are culturally influenced by overwhelming surrounding R1a peasant population of Sarmatia. They settle there and experience a population boom. Centuries after they start pushing down to Balkans, evading the Huns. Some authors still call them Ostrogoths, but in fact they speak Slavic by now, and consider themselves Slavs.

I'm not saying that it actually happened like this, but until more reliable data, all these theories are possible...

 

[Shetop]

http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/important-new-snps-for-dinarics.html

I hope that people understand what this means - paleolithic continuity theory is dead.

 

[Shetop]

If I2a Din spread to Croatia with the Slavic Croats then we would expect to see a positive correlation of I2a Din in the areas where the Croats settled and a negative one for where the native Romans at the time fled to.

So we would expect to see (I2a Din) Croats on the mainland, and some other mixture of roman survivors on the islands and mountains surrounding Ragusa.

I think you are on the right path here, but... You should not use only Croats (Croatia) in your analysis, but try to look at the Balkans as a whole. And on the map bellow you will see the pattern you are looking for. The previous native population retreated to those areas where E-V13 has a higher frequency.

Looking at R1a:Slavs as 1:1 connection is a trick. It messed up the minds of many people.

 

[Sile]

There is a big difference. Today there are significant leftovers in those same regions, from the most of the languages you have written above.
And as I have written, Gothic leftovers don't exist in the Balkans, not even as a trace.

And again correlation between I2a1b and Slavic populations is huge.

So, please write, WHY NOT SLAVS?

The correlation you speak about is linguistic, it counts for nothing in genetics.
Give me a genetic association with the origins of a slavic tribe from the polesie area ( all slavic scholars state this as the true origins of the slavs) and the people you talk about as being I2a-din.

Back to goths, my guess is that goths where primararily R1a with some I markers as discovered by Ken N ( he stated origins of an I marker in ancient east prussia ,this was discussed before on this forum ).

visigoths = pure goths , with Vandili people
ostrogoths = east goths, mixed people

 

[Sile]

In the Balkans, all nationalities which have more than 16% I2a1b use Slavic language.
And opposite from that, all that have less than 16% are not Slavic (In the Balkans).

and what percentage of I2a1b of slavs in the balkans know how to speak English?

 

[Sile]

I think you are on the right path here, but... You should not use only Croats (Croatia) in your analysis, but try to look at the Balkans as a whole. And on the map bellow you will see the pattern you are looking for. The previous native population retreated to those areas where E-V13 has a higher frequency.

Looking at R1a:Slavs as 1:1 connection is a trick. It messed up the minds of many people.

If as you say I2a-din and R1a was brought into the balkans by Slavs, then answer me what markers where with the people that where already living there?

The area was not empty of people

 

[gyms]

We finally have some useful SNPs to divide the very large Dinaric
haplogroup. One of the most important is S17250 and it is now available for
testing as an individual SNP at FTDNA. You can also order S17250 from
Thomas Krahn's http://www.yseq.net/ and no prior testing is required at
this company. And S17250 is included as part of the Chromo2 test at
BritainsDNA http://www.britainsdna.com/

Around 12 Dinarics have tested S17250 as part of Big Y or at YSEQ. All 5
Dinaric-South men were S17250+, and some Dinaric-North men were S17250+ and
other Dinaric-North men were S17250-. The division between Dinaric-South
and Dinaric-North is based on two STR markers and this division is not
always a perfect reflection of genetic history. Dinarics belong to
I-CTS5966 which is part of I-L621, I-M423, and I-P37 and they have been
known by many other haplogroup designations over the years.

Thanks to those Dinarics who have done Big Y or tested at YSEQ, and thanks
to Larry Mayka of the Polish Project and Zdenko Markovic of the I2a project
for analyzing the data. Please see our new Dinaric tree here
http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/important-new-snps-for-dinarics.htmland
please feel free to contact me for the most recent advice before you
order S17250 or any other test.

Bernie Cullen
one of the volunteer administrators, I2a Project

The URL didn't come out correctly. Here it is again:

http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/important-new-snps-for-dinarics.html

So far, most or all of those who are negative for S17250 have patrilineage
originating near the Carpathians, particularly southeastern Poland and
extreme western Ukraine. That pattern may change with more sampling, of
course.

Besides S17250, I have requested from FTDNA individual SNP tests for the
following:
Y3548
Z16970
Z16971
YFC010724
Y3118
Z16983 (17558968)

From: Bernie Cullen

The case is not closed yet

 

[Shetop]

If as you say I2a-din and R1a was brought into the balkans by Slavs, then answer me what markers where with the people that where already living there?

The area was not empty of people

E-V13
J-M12
R1b-U152
R1b-M269(xL51)
J-M410
G2a

I'm not sure about the timeline of the multiple I1 SNPs which can be found in the Balkans.

 

[mihaitzateo]

Romania is not in the Balkans.
Also it is a kind of a special case, which requires its own detailed analysis. I assume many have read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_influence_on_Romanian

In Romanian language common use words are either cognates with Romance languages,either cognates to Slavic languages.
So I highly doubt the theory which says that the "Slavs migrated in 6th century and they influenced Romanian language".
I will give a single example of word,to annoy the people who are saying Slavs were not existing in Balkans before 6th Century:
eye/s in Romanian - ochi .
Clearly cognate with :
Ukrainian,Bulgarian ochi (spell it oki to understand how it is pronounced) - eyes
Serbo-croatian - oci
etc

So it is clear that Romanian people and language were formed from Slavic people also.
Not possible to have basic words replaced,under the influence of settling people.
So,first,I do not agree with the theory of Slavic migration in Balkans,I agree partially .
I think some kind of Satem speakers,of a language that is closed to today South Slavic were living were today South Slavs are living before Roman Empire conquest.
As for I2a1b I think is very old ,some people that were here from thousands of year before Christ.
Notice that some genetic testing have show Thracian being very closed to Sardinians ,which have as most present paternal line a some kind of I2a.
So is very possible that on today land of Romania,Balkans were living some Italic speakers,after which Satem speakers came and conquered them.
Most Satem speakers were speaking some kind of proto-Slavic.In Romania was less influence in the language,this is why the language kept lots of words common with Romance languages.

 

[FBS]

In Romanian language common use words are either cognates with Romance languages,either cognates to Slavic languages.
So I highly doubt the theory which says that the "Slavs migrated in 6th century and they influenced Romanian language".
I will give a single example of word,to annoy the people who are saying Slavs were not existing in Balkans before 6th Century:
eye/s in Romanian - ochi .
Clearly cognate with :
Ukrainian,Bulgarian ochi (spell it oki to understand how it is pronounced) - eyes
Serbo-croatian - oci
etc

Occhi - Italian - eyes
Oculi - Latin - eyes

Hm?

 

[motzart]

I think you are on the right path here, but... You should not use only Croats (Croatia) in your analysis, but try to look at the Balkans as a whole. And on the map bellow you will see the pattern you are looking for. The previous native population retreated to those areas where E-V13 has a higher frequency.

Looking at R1a:Slavs as 1:1 connection is a trick. It messed up the minds of many people.

You can see exactly which haplogroups were there before the Slavs and which ones came with the Slavs from this data. They created this study with the goal to prove paleolithic continuity of Haplogroup I in Croatia, but given we our current knowledge of the unlikeliness of paleolithic continuity all it does is show us which haplogroups were pre Slav.

Every Haplogroup that has a Higher frequency for "Croation mainlaind" than for "Brac-Hvar-Korkula" is Slav, every Haplogroup that has a Higher frequency for "Brac-Hvar-Korkula" than for "Croatian Mainland" is Pre-Slav.

Slav:

R1a-SRY
R1b-M173

Pre-Slav:

I-M170
G-M201
P*
J

The G/P*/J aren't really of any value because it is based off of <10 results. I think this study is only significant for I, R1a, and R1b.

[TABLE="class: cms_table_data"]
[TR]
[TH="class: cms_table_last cms_table_rowsep"][/TH]
[TH="class: cms_table_last cms_table_rowsep, align: center"] Frequency[/TH]
[TH="class: cms_table_last cms_table_rowsep, align: center"] No[/TH]
[TH="class: cms_table_last cms_table_rowsep, align: center"] 95% CR[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD] I-M170[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.376[/TD]
[TD]41[/TD]
[TD]0.291–0.470[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.284[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]0.194–0.396[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.551[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]0.413–0.682[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.659[/TD]
[TD]60[/TD]
[TD]0.557–0.749[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD]0.537[/TD]
[TD]72[/TD]
[TD]0.453–0.620[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] G-M201[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.009[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.002–0.050[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.061[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]0.022–0.165[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.011[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.003–0.058[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD]0.104[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]0.064–0.168[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD] F-M89[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.018[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.006–0.064[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.020[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.005–0.106[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.011[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.003–0.058[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD]0.015[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.005–0.052[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] R1a-SRY[SUB]10831[/SUB][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.339[/TD]
[TD]37[/TD]
[TD]0.257–0.433[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.378[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]0.276–0.493[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.265[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]0.162–0.403[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.087[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]0.045–0.162[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD]0.201[/TD]
[TD]27[/TD]
[TD]0.142–0.0277[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD] R1b-M173[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.156[/TD]
[TD]17[/TD]
[TD]0.100–0.236[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.162[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]0.096–0.263[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.061[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]0.022–0.165[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.011[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.003–0.059[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD]0.015[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.005–0.052[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] P*-92R7[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.018[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.006–0.064[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.140[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]0.085–0.227[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD]0.060[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]0.026–0.104[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD] E-SRY[SUB]4064[/SUB][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.055[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]0.026–0.115[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.068[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]0.030–0.149[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.041[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.013–0.137[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.043[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]0.018–0.106[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD]0.037[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]0.016–0.084[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] J-12f2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.018[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]0.006–0.064[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.108[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]0.056–0.199[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.033[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]0.012–0.091[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD]0.022[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]0.008–0.064[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD] K-M9[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Croatian mainland[/TD]
[TD]0.009[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]0.002–0.050[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Krk[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bra

[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: cms_table_odd"]
[TD]Hvar[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: cms_table_last"]Kor

ula[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_last"]0.015[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_last"]2[/TD]
[TD="class: cms_table_last"]0.005–0.052[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]