What does the link say exactly?http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/important-new-snps-for-dinarics.html
I hope that people understand what this means - paleolithic continuity theory is dead.
I don't understand.
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What does the link say exactly?http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2014/05/important-new-snps-for-dinarics.html
I hope that people understand what this means - paleolithic continuity theory is dead.
Occhi - Italian - eyes
Oculi - Latin - eyes
Hm?
What does the link say exactly?
I don't understand.
I was thinking about this and then it occurred to me that I don't have enough genetic knowledge to determine if addition or deletion of a SNP is the sign of age, evolutionary progress if you will. Are you sure if deletion can't happen with time too?It says that all I2a-Dinaric-South samples are positive for the newly found S17250 SNP. It also says that this new SNP is the youngest (not private) I2a SNP found so far.
On the other side many I2a-Dinaric-North are not positive for S17250.
Since I2a-Dinaric-South is predominant in the Balkans and I2a-Dinaric-North is more frequent as we go towards Northeast (it is almost the only I2a-Dinaric found in Northeast Europe), it is clear that the Balkan I2a-Din is younger than the one in the other parts of Eastern Europe (it is actually the youngest).
If Balkan I2a is the youngest of all the European I2a, then it can't be the source of I2a in Europe.
I was thinking about this and then it occurred to me that I don't have enough genetic knowledge to determine if addition or deletion of a SNP is the sign of age, evolutionary progress if you will. Are you sure if deletion can't happen with time too?
Shetop:"It says that all I2a-Dinaric-South samples are positive for the newly found S17250 SNP. It also says that this new SNP is the youngest (not private) I2a SNP found so far.
On the other side many I2a-Dinaric-North are not positive for S17250."
No.It says that:"Around 12 Dinarics have tested S17250 as part of Big Y or at YSEQ. All 5
Dinaric-South men were S17250+, and some Dinaric-North men were S17250+ and
other Dinaric-North men were S17250-."
Bernie Cullen
one of the volunteer administrators, I2a Project
@motzart
I do not know why you put the trento map in the above links.
Trento and alto-adige region of Italy rarely have people who test in genetic sites ( 23andme , ftdna etc) , this is because they get tested for free by the region.
in regard to the I marker from these regional tests for that region. it states
~5% for I1
and ~2% for I2
the 9.4% is for North-east Italy, it can mean Veneto and Friuli regions.
And yes Trento does fall in the term - the 3 venice's ...........veneto, friuli and trento regions
I posted the map of Trento to show the Region where they had a 9.4% sample for I2a1 (showing I2a1 has a higher frequency Northeastern italy than Maciamo's I2a1 map suggests), can you post me a link to the 'regional tests' you are talking about?
Here is the study I was going off of.
Materials and methods
Samples
The sample consists of 1206 unrelated male individuals
from 17 population samples (Figure 1). Two-hundred and
thirty-five of these, namely 64 Albanians from Former
Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia, 29 Croatians from
Osijek, 75 Slovenians and 67 northeast Italians (from the
province of Trento), are reported here for the first time. The
remaining include samples reported earlier,
23,27,33
and
consist of 104 Caucasians (38 Balkarians and 66
Georgians), 149 Greeks (92 from Athens and 57 from
Macedonia), 55 Albanians (collected in Tirana), 89 Croa-
tians, 99 Polish, 75 Czechs, 92 Ukrainians, 53 Hungarians
and 255 Bosnia-Herzegovinians (84 Bosniacs, 90 Croats
and 81 Serbs). Blood samples were collected from healthy
unrelated adults after obtaining informed consent. DNA
was extracted from whole blood according to the
standard phenol/chloroform procedure, followed by ethanol
precipitation.
In addition, P37.2* samples identified from a screening
of the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation collec-
tion (over 14 000 Y chromosomes from more than 100
countries) were also included.
http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Battaglia.pdf
Done in 2008, I think a random sampling would provide a better result than voluntary regional testing. Professional random sampling would be done on unrelated individuals with historical roots in the region, voluntary would spread family based and include individuals with no historical roots
I'll go with your logic for the lack of alternative explanation.I don't have enough knowledge too, but I think that deletion possibility is highly unlikely.
And if it ever happened it would be impossible that it happened completely only for those I2a samples where the next youngest SNP is not found (the next youngest is I2a-CTS5966).
And for the I2a-CTS5966 it is not completely deleted (some have it some don't). It would make no sense that it is preserved in the youngest samples.
German Wikipedia, which I tend to trust more here, mentions that the Heruli kingdom also covered the Austrian Weinviertel (NE Austria north of Vienna).After the fall of the Hunnic realm in 454 at the Battle of Nedao, in which the Heruls participated, they created their own kingdom at the March and Theiss rivers, (in the region of today's southern Slovakia).
I am no expert in interpreting Byzantine texts, but to me, "cities" (note the plural) denotes a quite large chunk of land to be repopulated (maybe the Serbians here can find out more details). Similarly, "several thousand Heruli" indicates a sizeable local population by 530/540 (the main period of Belisarius' campaigns), i.e. 20-30 years after the establishment of the Singidonum colony.After the Herulian kingdom was destroyed by the Lombards, Herulian fortunes waned. Remaining Heruls joined the Lombards and some of them sought refuge with the Gepids. Marcellinus comes recorded that the Romans (meaning the East Romans or in modern naming the Byzantines) allowed them to resettle depopulated "lands and cities" near Singidunum (modern Belgrade); this was done "by order of Anastasius Caesar" sometime between June 29 and August 31, 512. After one generation, this minor federate kingdom disappeared from the historical records.
Records indicate that the Heruli served in the armies of the Roman emperors for a number of years, in particular in the campaigns of Belisarius, when much of the old Roman territory, including Italy, Syria, and North Africa was recaptured. Pharus was a notable Herulian commander during this period. Several thousand Heruli served in the personal guard of Belisarius throughout the campaigns. They disappeared from historical records by the mid-6th century.
Obviousy, Mundus' forces were mainly made up by Heruli. With all we know about the habits of war those days ("sent much booty to Constantinople", and probably kept even more for himself and his men), genetic founder effects in Bosnia and Croatia brought forward by that Dalmatian campaign are anything but unlikely.Mundus (Greek: Μούνδος; died 536) was an Germanic general of the Byzantine Empire during the reign of Justinian I.
Mundus was of the son of Giesmus, a king of the East Germanic tribe Gepids, and nephew to another Gepid king, Trapstila. (..) In 529, Mundus sent envoys to Justinian, offering his allegiance. His offer was accepted, and Mundus was appointed magister militum per Illyricum, head of all military forces in Illyria and along the Danubian frontier.During the next two years, he defeated incursions of Slavs and Bulgars into the Balkans and sent much booty to Constantinople.
In 531, Mundus was briefly magister militum per Orientem, replacing Belisarius after his failure at Callinicum, but it seems that Mundus never actually traveled to the East to assume that command. In January 532, he was again appointed commander of the Illyrian forces. In the same month, he happened to be in Constantinople with a force of Heruli mercenaries when the Nika riots broke out. Mundus remained loyal to Justinian and, along with Belisarius, was responsible for the massacre of the supporters of Hypatius in the Hippodrome and thus the reassertion of imperial control.
Mundus remained in command of the forces in Illyricum thereafter. In 535, as Justinian launched his attempt to reconquer Italy from the Goths, he led his forces into Dalmatia, which the Goths held, while Belisarius invaded Italy by sea. Mundus defeated the Goths and took the capital, Salona; but, early in the next year, a new Gothic army arrived to reclaim the province. In a skirmish near Salona, Mundus's son Mauricius was trapped with only a few men by a larger Gothic force and was killed. Enraged by the loss of his son, Mundus sallied out and defeated the Goths but was mortally wounded in the pursuit
So, by the time of the Heruli settlement (512), the city and its surrounding hat seen several devastating raids, and at least seven times changed hands during seventy years. There probably wasn't much original population left. The Heruli colony, OTOH, experienced 70 years of peace, plus another 50 years before the arrival of the Slavs. Might just be enough to propagate I2a-Din to a sizeable number, provided it was already well present within the original Heruli / March basin colony.In the 5th and 6th centuries, Moesia and Illyricum suffered devastating raids by the successive invasions of the Huns, Ostrogoths, Gepids, Sarmatians, Avars, and Slavs. Singidunum fell to the Huns in 441, who razed the city and fortress, selling its Roman inhabitants into indentured servitude. Over the next two hundred years, the city passed hands several times: the Romans reclaimed the city after the fall of the Hun confederation in 454, but the Sarmatians conquered the city shortly thereafter. In 470 the Ostrogoths seized the city around, expelling the Sarmatians. The city was later invaded by Gepids (488), but the Ostrogoths recaptured it in 504. Six years later the Eastern Roman Empire reclaimed the city according to a peace treaty.
Byzantine emperor Justinian I rebuilt Singidunum in 535, restoring the fortress and city to its former military importance. The city saw a brief peaceful period of about fifty years, but was then sacked with the arrival of the Avars in 584. During Maurice's Balkan campaigns, Singidunum served as a base of operations, but it was lost again in the early half of the 7th century when the Avars sacked and burned Singidunum to the ground. Around 630, the Slavs settled in the area.
If I understood the argument brought forward by Sparkey correctly, it starts with the observation of high I2a-Din diversity in Southern Poland. Now, because of post WWII population shifts, Southern Poland is a tricky region. In fact, the vast majority of people now living in Silesia west of Katowice should have originated from what is today Western Ukraine. Any more detailed explanation about what "Southern Poland" is meant to comprise is appreciated. Until then, I would rather tend to regard the Dniester basin (SW Ukraine & Moldova) as potential I2a-Din "homeland".
Their genetic footprint, while diluted by subsequent German settlers (possibly also some Swedes during the 17th and 18th century), is well preserved - R1b frequency peaks around Rostock (central Mecklenburg) at 32%.
Most importantly, however, if I2a-Din was already present around the Morava (March - the Austro-Slovakian, not the one in today's Serbia), you don't need the Slavs to explain I2a-Din presence on the Balkans. I find it strange that on 23 pages so far nobody has yet been discussing the Heruli: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heruli
I see the same problems with the Heruli that I see with the Goths, including that there are I1 subclades that apparently correspond to East Germanic expansions, and yet I2a-Din doesn't match these all that closely. Are you proposing that the Heruli had very different haplogroup distributions compared to other East Germanic peoples? Or that there was a founder effect from some small group of Heruli I2a-Din carriers, even though the Heruli didn't carry much to begin with?
My mistake! I of course meant to say R1a.I've never seen anyone claim that elevated R1b percentages are evidence of Slavic expansion, could you elaborate? I suppose East Germanic peoples don't have a lot of evidence for carrying R1b in high percentages, but in general, Germanic peoples are thought to have tended to carrier greater frequencies of R1b than Slavs.
Sile has already partly answered on my behalf. The origin of the Heruli is unclear. Wikipedia has a 150 AD map showing them on the Danish isles, but that all seems to be a lot of guessing based on a few sentences written by Roman geographers (as usual). The Heruli went somehow alongside the Goths, settling on the northern shores of the Black Sea (which again could have been anywhere from the Don to the Dniester, thus I2a-Din-rich or rather poor areas), followed the Huns westward, then turned against them together with the Goths, and ultimately ended up somewhere around March and Tisza. Along the way, they should have picked up various other populations, and during their 50 years rule of northern Pannonia they collected whoever had been washed there by the Hunnic tide, plus the natives (Dacians?) that had managed to survive the Huns. Essentially, when part of the Heruli (and we don't even know which part of the conglomerate that they had become) settled around today's Belgrade, they most likely did not have much more in common with the Baltic Heruli than a bit of nobility and the language (even about the latter I am not sure).I see the same problems with the Heruli that I see with the Goths, including that there are I1 subclades that apparently correspond to East Germanic expansions, and yet I2a-Din doesn't match these all that closely. Are you proposing that the Heruli had very different haplogroup distributions compared to other East Germanic peoples? Or that there was a founder effect from some small group of Heruli I2a-Din carriers, even though the Heruli didn't carry much to begin with?
Unfortunately, Wikipedia does not state where they settled - near Mount Haemus, which is the antique name for the Balkan mountain range that runs across Bulgaria ? Anyway, here the Wikipedia map of the Heruli and Gothic invasions, if anybody wants to check if it may explain some of the I2a-Din observed.A large number of Goths managed to escape towards Macedonia, initially defending themselves behind their laager. Soon, many of them and their pack animals, distressed as they were by the harassment of the Roman cavalry and the lack of provisions, died of hunger. The Roman army methodically pursued and surrounded the survivors at Mount Haemus where an epidemic affected the entrapped Goths. After a bloody but inconclusive battle, they escaped but were pursued again until they surrendered. Prisoners were admitted to the army or given land to cultivate and become coloni.
Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Naissus, it appears that the Heruli were especially skilled in seafaring and had their main port at the mouth of the Dniester (I2a-Din "homeland"). Together with the Goths (which appear to have rather travelled by land), in 267-269 they ravaged the western Black Sea and the Aegean, before finally suffering defeat at Naissus (today's Nis in Serbia).
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